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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 19, 2021 15:58:36 GMT
Rowett wasn't very likeable but he got us playing well enough to survive comfortably in the Championship - Jones actually made us worse with the same players that season. Had we stuck with Rowett I think we'd have ended up top half and could have built from there. Rowett's downfall was a combination of arrogance and over inflated expectations not that he was a bad manager - his record at this level is ok. Ball on the other hand just wasn't any good at management and got shown up at a lower level. I suppose it depends on how you see worse. In terms of expectation I get Rowett being right up there but I think circumstances count. I'm calling worse in terms of ability to manage - and in those terms Ball is worse for my money. I also think Lambert's contribution to our downfall is under appreciated and Rowett inherited alot of the blame. But happy to agree to differ on such a subjective matter. That’s a fair point. Ball was reliably terrible pretty much everywhere he went wasn’t he. Jones and Rowett and even Lambert had success elsewhere The win percentages of Ball and Rowett makes interesting reading: Ball 32% overall, 27% with us (one of his better spells - he had one good spell at Portsmouth otherwise his overall average would have been far worse) Rowett 41% overall, 31% with us (his worst by quite a long way) Ball had a long career being pretty crap wherever he went. Kamara managed Bradford and us, ended up with about the same win percentage as Ball but then had the decency to get out of football management and do something else. Ball makes this list of the worlds worst managers at number 49 - he's literally a worldy at being crap. |
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Post by Pugsley on Feb 19, 2021 16:02:05 GMT
That’s a fair point. Ball was reliably terrible pretty much everywhere he went wasn’t he. Jones and Rowett and even Lambert had success elsewhere The win percentages of Ball and Rowett makes interesting reading: Ball 32% overall, 27% with us (one of his better spells - he had one good spell at Portsmouth otherwise his overall average would have been far worse) Rowett 41% overall, 31% with us (his worst by quite a long way) Ball had a long career being pretty crap wherever he went. Kamara managed Bradford and us, ended up with about the same win percentage as Ball but then had the decency to get out of football management and do something else. Ball makes this list of the worlds worst managers at number 49 - he's literally a worldy at being crap. If there was a list for the worlds worst lists that would be number one. |
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Post by mickstupp on Feb 19, 2021 16:04:53 GMT
That’s a fair point. Ball was reliably terrible pretty much everywhere he went wasn’t he. Jones and Rowett and even Lambert had success elsewhere The win percentages of Ball and Rowett makes interesting reading: Ball 32% overall, 27% with us (one of his better spells - he had one good spell at Portsmouth otherwise his overall average would have been far worse) Rowett 41% overall, 31% with us (his worst by quite a long way) Ball had a long career being pretty crap wherever he went. Kamara managed Bradford and us, ended up with about the same win percentage as Ball but then had the decency to get out of football management and do something else. Ball makes this list of the worlds worst managers at number 49 - he's literally a worldy at being crap. I was no fan of Bally as our manager but he did an outstanding job at Portsmouth before coming to Stoke and also had a very good spell at Southampton. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 19, 2021 16:05:51 GMT
I think that's a fair analysis of Ball and Jones but Rowett didn't 'steady' anything. O'Neill has steadied a sinking ship. Rowett piled even more problems onto those he inherited. Rowett wasn't very likeable but he got us playing well enough to survive comfortably in the Championship - Jones actually made us worse with the same players that season. Had we stuck with Rowett I think we'd have ended up top half and could have built from there. Rowett's downfall was a combination of arrogance and over inflated expectations not that he was a bad manager - his record at this level is ok. Ball on the other hand just wasn't any good at management and got shown up at a lower level. I suppose it depends on how you see worse. In terms of expectation I get Rowett being right up there but I think circumstances count. I'm calling worse in terms of ability to manage - and in those terms Ball is worse for my money. I also think Lambert's contribution to our downfall is under appreciated and Rowett inherited alot of the blame. But happy to agree to differ on such a subjective matter. We didn't give Rowett £50m to "survive comfortably" though in fairness, instead he set us back arguably another season or so by buying utter shite...... |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 19, 2021 16:12:17 GMT
Rowett wasn't very likeable but he got us playing well enough to survive comfortably in the Championship - Jones actually made us worse with the same players that season. Had we stuck with Rowett I think we'd have ended up top half and could have built from there. Rowett's downfall was a combination of arrogance and over inflated expectations not that he was a bad manager - his record at this level is ok. Ball on the other hand just wasn't any good at management and got shown up at a lower level. I suppose it depends on how you see worse. In terms of expectation I get Rowett being right up there but I think circumstances count. I'm calling worse in terms of ability to manage - and in those terms Ball is worse for my money. I also think Lambert's contribution to our downfall is under appreciated and Rowett inherited alot of the blame. But happy to agree to differ on such a subjective matter. Rowett's ability to manage was poor though and I don't see the basis for arguing he'd have had us top half. It would have required him to fundamentally change an approach he's proven incapable of changing, one that simply wasn't the right fit for our club with our profile in the circumstances. Surviving comfortably really wasn't enough for the outlay. You can't set up like he did when you're promotion favourites. That's why he couldn't turn draws into wins and we often got our pockets picked. His use of the huge warchest he was given bordered on criminal as well. Afobe sums it up best. Didn't remotely fit a 4-3-3 yet he made him his top priority. He inherited a shit show but it was within his power to change that and he fumbled it badly. Then there was his throwing players under the bus, which never goes well and perhaps speaks to the pressures of the job and it being too big for him. It's one thing to give Bauer the treatment but when you're publicly calling out Shawcross and Bojan, then the problem might just be you. Still, when you look at Ball, Jones, etc I agree he wasn't quite in that realm, even though he's probably my own personal least favourite manager because of how objectionable and wasteful he was. We were top half when we sacked him and after a poor start to the season he made us hard to beat. You are right in that we were promotion favourites but bookies follow the money not the reality and we were in no shape to bounce back after relegation because of some horrendous signings under Hughes and Lambert breaking something that was already on the way to being broke. I get why people don't like Rowett - he wasn't very likeable and he didn't live up to expectations but for me a big part of the problem was people's expectations and not that he was our worst ever manager - he's got way too much competition for that. For what it's worth one of my least favourite managers was Tony Pulis - I hated the football we played under him - but there's no way I'd describe him as one of our worst manager because clearly he wasn't. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 19, 2021 16:15:08 GMT
The win percentages of Ball and Rowett makes interesting reading: Ball 32% overall, 27% with us (one of his better spells - he had one good spell at Portsmouth otherwise his overall average would have been far worse) Rowett 41% overall, 31% with us (his worst by quite a long way) Ball had a long career being pretty crap wherever he went. Kamara managed Bradford and us, ended up with about the same win percentage as Ball but then had the decency to get out of football management and do something else. Ball makes this list of the worlds worst managers at number 49 - he's literally a worldy at being crap. If there was a list for the worlds worst lists that would be number one. It's a pretty random list but to even get a mention is quite an achievement - it shows your (lack of) achievement has been noted on a wider scale than those who have just seen it first hand. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 19, 2021 16:16:08 GMT
In my memory, it has to be Jones. Boskamp in his madness gave some comical moments. Rowett wasted a lot of cash, but the cubs infrastructure did not support a relatively inexperienced manager. Jones, was just shit. From day one you could tell he was far far far too immersed in his own thinking, eating his fingers etc. It's not someone you would want to help you gain promotion and survive under massive massive pressure in the prem. Boskamp did a good job didn't he? 8 senior pros when he got here, no experience in the English game and we were comfortable. We had some good games and some right shitters but overall he did a good job. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2021 16:21:43 GMT
The win percentages of Ball and Rowett makes interesting reading: Ball 32% overall, 27% with us (one of his better spells - he had one good spell at Portsmouth otherwise his overall average would have been far worse) Rowett 41% overall, 31% with us (his worst by quite a long way) Ball had a long career being pretty crap wherever he went. Kamara managed Bradford and us, ended up with about the same win percentage as Ball but then had the decency to get out of football management and do something else. Ball makes this list of the worlds worst managers at number 49 - he's literally a worldy at being crap. I was no fan of Bally as our manager but he did an outstanding job at Portsmouth before coming to Stoke and also had a very good spell at Southampton. Not sure he was that good at Southampton, they only survived on the final day and that was basically because Le Tissier pulled them out of it again. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2021 16:27:18 GMT
Rowett's ability to manage was poor though and I don't see the basis for arguing he'd have had us top half. It would have required him to fundamentally change an approach he's proven incapable of changing, one that simply wasn't the right fit for our club with our profile in the circumstances. Surviving comfortably really wasn't enough for the outlay. You can't set up like he did when you're promotion favourites. That's why he couldn't turn draws into wins and we often got our pockets picked. His use of the huge warchest he was given bordered on criminal as well. Afobe sums it up best. Didn't remotely fit a 4-3-3 yet he made him his top priority. He inherited a shit show but it was within his power to change that and he fumbled it badly. Then there was his throwing players under the bus, which never goes well and perhaps speaks to the pressures of the job and it being too big for him. It's one thing to give Bauer the treatment but when you're publicly calling out Shawcross and Bojan, then the problem might just be you. Still, when you look at Ball, Jones, etc I agree he wasn't quite in that realm, even though he's probably my own personal least favourite manager because of how objectionable and wasteful he was. We were top half when we sacked him and after a poor start to the season he made us hard to beat. You are right in that we were promotion favourites but bookies follow the money not the reality and we were in no shape to bounce back after relegation because of some horrendous signings under Hughes and Lambert breaking something that was already on the way to being broke. I get why people don't like Rowett - he wasn't very likeable and he didn't live up to expectations but for me a big part of the problem was people's expectations and not that he was our worst ever manager - he's got way too much competition for that. For what it's worth one of my least favourite managers was Tony Pulis - I hated the football we played under him - but there's no way I'd describe him as one of our worst manager because clearly he wasn't. We were 14th when he was sacked. And the point isn't so much that he wasn't likeable or that he played dour football. It didn't matter that we were the bookies' favourites. The point is we were seen as favourites and a scalp by the rest of the division. In that context, teams were coming to the Brit and shutting up shop, and our response was to let them have the ball and try and hit them on the break. So we created precious little, were actually pretty easy to beat, didn't really win many games. It couldn't work. He also had a huge budget to spend and signed virtually no creative players, and a number of players who didn't fit his apparently singular vision. His brief wasn't to 'steady the ship', his brief was to get us promoted, and a good manager could have got a damn sight closer than he did. He wanted to turn us into underdogs and you can't do that when you've just been relegated, have 'name' players in your ranks and then blow the rest of the league out of the water in the transfer market. The Pulis comparison isn't really apt because his football, love it or hate it, was ultimately effective when he managed us in that division (binary season aside) and Rowett's, relative to the task, manifestly wasn't. |
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Post by lordb on Feb 19, 2021 17:10:55 GMT
That’s a fair point. Ball was reliably terrible pretty much everywhere he went wasn’t he. Jones and Rowett and even Lambert had success elsewhere The win percentages of Ball and Rowett makes interesting reading: Ball 32% overall, 27% with us (one of his better spells - he had one good spell at Portsmouth otherwise his overall average would have been far worse) Rowett 41% overall, 31% with us (his worst by quite a long way) Ball had a long career being pretty crap wherever he went. Kamara managed Bradford and us, ended up with about the same win percentage as Ball but then had the decency to get out of football management and do something else. Ball makes this list of the worlds worst managers at number 49 - he's literally a worldy at being crap. Alan Ball is the only manager ever to have had sides relegated form all 4 divisions,some divisions more than once |
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Post by lordb on Feb 19, 2021 17:12:02 GMT
The win percentages of Ball and Rowett makes interesting reading: Ball 32% overall, 27% with us (one of his better spells - he had one good spell at Portsmouth otherwise his overall average would have been far worse) Rowett 41% overall, 31% with us (his worst by quite a long way) Ball had a long career being pretty crap wherever he went. Kamara managed Bradford and us, ended up with about the same win percentage as Ball but then had the decency to get out of football management and do something else. Ball makes this list of the worlds worst managers at number 49 - he's literally a worldy at being crap. I was no fan of Bally as our manager but he did an outstanding job at Portsmouth before coming to Stoke and also had a very good spell at Southampton. he tactics at Southampton, 100% the correct tactic by the way, was to instruct his players to 'give the ball to Le Tiss' |
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Post by lordb on Feb 19, 2021 17:13:40 GMT
Rowett's ability to manage was poor though and I don't see the basis for arguing he'd have had us top half. It would have required him to fundamentally change an approach he's proven incapable of changing, one that simply wasn't the right fit for our club with our profile in the circumstances. Surviving comfortably really wasn't enough for the outlay. You can't set up like he did when you're promotion favourites. That's why he couldn't turn draws into wins and we often got our pockets picked. His use of the huge warchest he was given bordered on criminal as well. Afobe sums it up best. Didn't remotely fit a 4-3-3 yet he made him his top priority. He inherited a shit show but it was within his power to change that and he fumbled it badly. Then there was his throwing players under the bus, which never goes well and perhaps speaks to the pressures of the job and it being too big for him. It's one thing to give Bauer the treatment but when you're publicly calling out Shawcross and Bojan, then the problem might just be you. Still, when you look at Ball, Jones, etc I agree he wasn't quite in that realm, even though he's probably my own personal least favourite manager because of how objectionable and wasteful he was. We were top half when we sacked him and after a poor start to the season he made us hard to beat. You are right in that we were promotion favourites but bookies follow the money not the reality and we were in no shape to bounce back after relegation because of some horrendous signings under Hughes and Lambert breaking something that was already on the way to being broke. I get why people don't like Rowett - he wasn't very likeable and he didn't live up to expectations but for me a big part of the problem was people's expectations and not that he was our worst ever manager - he's got way too much competition for that. For what it's worth one of my least favourite managers was Tony Pulis - I hated the football we played under him - but there's no way I'd describe him as one of our worst manager because clearly he wasn't. good/bad isn't the same as liked/disliked Chris Kamara is a great bloke but obv pants manager |
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Post by theonlooker on Feb 19, 2021 17:17:43 GMT
I was no fan of Bally as our manager but he did an outstanding job at Portsmouth before coming to Stoke and also had a very good spell at Southampton. he tactics at Southampton, 100% the correct tactic by the way, was to instruct his players to 'give the ball to Le Tiss' Sadly he applied that to every club he was at. The Pompey one was Mick Quinn. The Man City one was Georgi Kinkladze. The Stoke one was Tony Ellis. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 19, 2021 17:23:16 GMT
We were top half when we sacked him and after a poor start to the season he made us hard to beat. You are right in that we were promotion favourites but bookies follow the money not the reality and we were in no shape to bounce back after relegation because of some horrendous signings under Hughes and Lambert breaking something that was already on the way to being broke. I get why people don't like Rowett - he wasn't very likeable and he didn't live up to expectations but for me a big part of the problem was people's expectations and not that he was our worst ever manager - he's got way too much competition for that. For what it's worth one of my least favourite managers was Tony Pulis - I hated the football we played under him - but there's no way I'd describe him as one of our worst manager because clearly he wasn't. We were 14th when he was sacked. And the point isn't so much that he wasn't likeable or that he played dour football. It didn't matter that we were the bookies' favourites. The point is we were seen as favourites and a scalp by the rest of the division. In that context, teams were coming to the Brit and shutting up shop, and our response was to let them have the ball and try and hit them on the break. So we created precious little, were actually pretty easy to beat, didn't really win many games. It couldn't work. He also had a huge budget to spend and signed virtually no creative players, and a number of players who didn't fit his apparently singular vision. His brief wasn't to 'steady the ship', his brief was to get us promoted, and a good manager could have got a damn sight closer than he did. He wanted to turn us into underdogs and you can't do that when you've just been relegated, have 'name' players in your ranks and then blow the rest of the league out of the water in the transfer market. The Pulis comparison isn't really apt because his football, love it or hate it, was ultimately effective when he managed us in that division (binary season aside) and Rowett's, relative to the task, manifestly wasn't. I stand corrected on being 14th - memory playing tricks again. His brief may not have been to steady the ship but I think he realised sooner than most just how hard it is to get out of the Championship and just how far we were off being genuine contenders. He made some poor transfer decisions but it really isn't a matter of chucking money at the problem - the problem is the quality of player who is prepared to play for you when you get relegated. All you can attract are solid Championship quality pros, decent players coming to the end of their careers or unproven talent - and given the chance they will opt for the teams who've just been promoted. The teams that bounce straight back are the ones that keep their Premiership largely intact (like Norwich this season) - not one's packed with over paid under performing wastrels like us. We were in a mess and Rowett wasn't good enough to turn things round but managers far better than Rowett would have failed as well. I didn't raise Pulis as a comparison with Rowett, I raised Pulis to illustrate why our opinions may differ. You clearly don't like Rowett - that's fine and you are at liberty to decide your own criteria for deciding who you consider to be our worst manager. For me how much I like a manager isn't that relevant (which is why I mentioned Pulis) - I'm judging them on the basis of whether they were any good at managing a football team and we've had managers way worse at their job than Rowett. The other key difference is I think we had no chance of getting promoted in the first season we came down (I started the season with high hopes and at half time in the first game against Leeds realised it wasn't going to happen). Rowett has became the lightening rod for the sober realisation that we aren't a Premiership team any more and he has been vilified for a situation he inherited. Rowett is a decent Championship manager and for me at least he really isn't in the same category of awful as Ball and Kamara. But it really isn't something we have to agree on, especially as we have different criteria for what counts as worst and don't agree on our prospects of promotion in that first year after relegation. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 19, 2021 17:24:51 GMT
We were top half when we sacked him and after a poor start to the season he made us hard to beat. You are right in that we were promotion favourites but bookies follow the money not the reality and we were in no shape to bounce back after relegation because of some horrendous signings under Hughes and Lambert breaking something that was already on the way to being broke. I get why people don't like Rowett - he wasn't very likeable and he didn't live up to expectations but for me a big part of the problem was people's expectations and not that he was our worst ever manager - he's got way too much competition for that. For what it's worth one of my least favourite managers was Tony Pulis - I hated the football we played under him - but there's no way I'd describe him as one of our worst manager because clearly he wasn't. good/bad isn't the same as liked/disliked Chris Kamara is a great bloke but obv pants manager Yes - and that's the point I was trying to make. |
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Post by mickstupp on Feb 19, 2021 17:46:07 GMT
The win percentages of Ball and Rowett makes interesting reading: Ball 32% overall, 27% with us (one of his better spells - he had one good spell at Portsmouth otherwise his overall average would have been far worse) Rowett 41% overall, 31% with us (his worst by quite a long way) Ball had a long career being pretty crap wherever he went. Kamara managed Bradford and us, ended up with about the same win percentage as Ball but then had the decency to get out of football management and do something else. Ball makes this list of the worlds worst managers at number 49 - he's literally a worldy at being crap. Alan Ball is the only manager ever to have had sides relegated form all 4 divisions,some divisions more than once That’s quite some achievement! |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2021 18:36:09 GMT
We were 14th when he was sacked. And the point isn't so much that he wasn't likeable or that he played dour football. It didn't matter that we were the bookies' favourites. The point is we were seen as favourites and a scalp by the rest of the division. In that context, teams were coming to the Brit and shutting up shop, and our response was to let them have the ball and try and hit them on the break. So we created precious little, were actually pretty easy to beat, didn't really win many games. It couldn't work. He also had a huge budget to spend and signed virtually no creative players, and a number of players who didn't fit his apparently singular vision. His brief wasn't to 'steady the ship', his brief was to get us promoted, and a good manager could have got a damn sight closer than he did. He wanted to turn us into underdogs and you can't do that when you've just been relegated, have 'name' players in your ranks and then blow the rest of the league out of the water in the transfer market. The Pulis comparison isn't really apt because his football, love it or hate it, was ultimately effective when he managed us in that division (binary season aside) and Rowett's, relative to the task, manifestly wasn't. I stand corrected on being 14th - memory playing tricks again. His brief may not have been to steady the ship but I think he realised sooner than most just how hard it is to get out of the Championship and just how far we were off being genuine contenders. He made some poor transfer decisions but it really isn't a matter of chucking money at the problem - the problem is the quality of player who is prepared to play for you when you get relegated. All you can attract are solid Championship quality pros, decent players coming to the end of their careers or unproven talent - and given the chance they will opt for the teams who've just been promoted. The teams that bounce straight back are the ones that keep their Premiership largely intact (like Norwich this season) - not one's packed with over paid under performing wastrels like us. We were in a mess and Rowett wasn't good enough to turn things round but managers far better than Rowett would have failed as well. I didn't raise Pulis as a comparison with Rowett, I raised Pulis to illustrate why our opinions may differ. You clearly don't like Rowett - that's fine and you are at liberty to decide your own criteria for deciding who you consider to be our worst manager. For me how much I like a manager isn't that relevant (which is why I mentioned Pulis) - I'm judging them on the basis of whether they were any good at managing a football team and we've had managers way worse at their job than Rowett. The other key difference is I think we had no chance of getting promoted in the first season we came down (I started the season with high hopes and at half time in the first game against Leeds realised it wasn't going to happen). Rowett has became the lightening rod for the sober realisation that we aren't a Premiership team any more and he has been vilified for a situation he inherited. Rowett is a decent Championship manager and for me at least he really isn't in the same category of awful as Ball and Kamara. But it really isn't something we have to agree on, especially as we have different criteria for what counts as worst and don't agree on our prospects of promotion in that first year after relegation. I don’t like Rowett but I’m not biased, I’m being entirely objective. You’ve given him way too easier a ride over the spending - we kept hold of the majority of the squad, and it isn’t true that you can’t find good players if you’ve just been relegated or that nobody wants to play for you - we were one of the most attractive prospects in the division. Norwich when they got promoted last time made some very astute signings on a shoestring. Burnley each time they were promoted signed a 20 goal season striker from elsewhere in the division or the league below. It just required more imagination than he had/has. The issue with Rowett’s signings weren’t so much that they were all poor players but that he went big on players who clearly didn’t fit the system he wanted to play. I’ve seen you yourself criticise his 433 on here before. It was obvious from the first 2-3 games that Afobe wasn’t going to work as a lone striker - doesn’t a good manager do his homework? Likewise McClean isn’t a great fit for the system and Woods wasn’t the DM we needed. Was setting up to play on the break at home to Rotherham or Birmingham or whoever really the way to go when it was clear they were only rocking up for a point? The number of times we emboldened rubbish teams with our cowardly approach was pitiful. And again, there was his man management, which upset even the captain. |
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Post by Pugsley on Feb 19, 2021 18:36:27 GMT
The win percentages of Ball and Rowett makes interesting reading: Ball 32% overall, 27% with us (one of his better spells - he had one good spell at Portsmouth otherwise his overall average would have been far worse) Rowett 41% overall, 31% with us (his worst by quite a long way) Ball had a long career being pretty crap wherever he went. Kamara managed Bradford and us, ended up with about the same win percentage as Ball but then had the decency to get out of football management and do something else. Ball makes this list of the worlds worst managers at number 49 - he's literally a worldy at being crap. Alan Ball is the only manager ever to have had sides relegated form all 4 divisions,some divisions more than once According to that list Lippi is a worse manager!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Feb 19, 2021 20:30:55 GMT
We were 14th when he was sacked. And the point isn't so much that he wasn't likeable or that he played dour football. It didn't matter that we were the bookies' favourites. The point is we were seen as favourites and a scalp by the rest of the division. In that context, teams were coming to the Brit and shutting up shop, and our response was to let them have the ball and try and hit them on the break. So we created precious little, were actually pretty easy to beat, didn't really win many games. It couldn't work. He also had a huge budget to spend and signed virtually no creative players, and a number of players who didn't fit his apparently singular vision. His brief wasn't to 'steady the ship', his brief was to get us promoted, and a good manager could have got a damn sight closer than he did. He wanted to turn us into underdogs and you can't do that when you've just been relegated, have 'name' players in your ranks and then blow the rest of the league out of the water in the transfer market. The Pulis comparison isn't really apt because his football, love it or hate it, was ultimately effective when he managed us in that division (binary season aside) and Rowett's, relative to the task, manifestly wasn't. I stand corrected on being 14th - memory playing tricks again. His brief may not have been to steady the ship but I think he realised sooner than most just how hard it is to get out of the Championship and just how far we were off being genuine contenders. He made some poor transfer decisions but it really isn't a matter of chucking money at the problem - the problem is the quality of player who is prepared to play for you when you get relegated. All you can attract are solid Championship quality pros, decent players coming to the end of their careers or unproven talent - and given the chance they will opt for the teams who've just been promoted. The teams that bounce straight back are the ones that keep their Premiership largely intact (like Norwich this season) - not one's packed with over paid under performing wastrels like us. We were in a mess and Rowett wasn't good enough to turn things round but managers far better than Rowett would have failed as well. I didn't raise Pulis as a comparison with Rowett, I raised Pulis to illustrate why our opinions may differ. You clearly don't like Rowett - that's fine and you are at liberty to decide your own criteria for deciding who you consider to be our worst manager. For me how much I like a manager isn't that relevant (which is why I mentioned Pulis) - I'm judging them on the basis of whether they were any good at managing a football team and we've had managers way worse at their job than Rowett. The other key difference is I think we had no chance of getting promoted in the first season we came down (I started the season with high hopes and at half time in the first game against Leeds realised it wasn't going to happen). Rowett has became the lightening rod for the sober realisation that we aren't a Premiership team any more and he has been vilified for a situation he inherited. Rowett is a decent Championship manager and for me at least he really isn't in the same category of awful as Ball and Kamara. But it really isn't something we have to agree on, especially as we have different criteria for what counts as worst and don't agree on our prospects of promotion in that first year after relegation. The biggest problem with Rowett was his signings. He was given a huge amount of money by Championship standards and wasted it pathetically. The only one of his signings than hasn't been a complete failure is McLean who's a decent enough Championship workhorse but even he was well overpriced at £6m and we could have got similar players for a lot less. Maybe Clucas too but again only a qualified success and not worth the money we paid for him. He seemed to go for names but without a plan of where they would fit into our squad and the system he wanted to play. It seemed like he didn't properly assess the players we had, seen where the weaknesses were and signed players that would improve on those positions. Pace was one of the most glaring weaknesses in that relegated squad and he didn't sign anybody with any pace. When you go down you have one shot to spend big to get straight back up before FFP becomes a problem and Rowett utterly wasted that opportunity and his failure has massively hamstrung his successors who are now having to struggle with FFP. That's the main reason why he's so disliked. Just on results alone you'd say his record was just below average. But with the context of all the money he wasted and expensive players he signed on long contracts who flopped and consequently left his successors in a poor position, he deserves the stick he gets. |
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Post by a on Feb 19, 2021 21:05:24 GMT
Cheap option Chic was bad but has to be Jones total fraud. Jones was an unmitigated disaster but he’s got Luton to the Chanpionship and looks like he’s keeping them there. Strange how things work in football. |
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Post by mickstupp on Feb 19, 2021 22:48:38 GMT
Be ironic if the bloke many are calling our worst ever manager goes and turns us over tomorrow.
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Post by wakeypotter on Feb 19, 2021 23:49:04 GMT
Be ironing if the bloke many are calling our worst ever manager goes and turns us over tomorrow. We just no that’s guna happen after this thread |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2021 3:44:43 GMT
Be ironic if the bloke many are calling our worst ever manager goes and turns us over tomorrow. to be fair we did lose to an Alan Ball team. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 20, 2021 11:17:27 GMT
I stand corrected on being 14th - memory playing tricks again. His brief may not have been to steady the ship but I think he realised sooner than most just how hard it is to get out of the Championship and just how far we were off being genuine contenders. He made some poor transfer decisions but it really isn't a matter of chucking money at the problem - the problem is the quality of player who is prepared to play for you when you get relegated. All you can attract are solid Championship quality pros, decent players coming to the end of their careers or unproven talent - and given the chance they will opt for the teams who've just been promoted. The teams that bounce straight back are the ones that keep their Premiership largely intact (like Norwich this season) - not one's packed with over paid under performing wastrels like us. We were in a mess and Rowett wasn't good enough to turn things round but managers far better than Rowett would have failed as well. I didn't raise Pulis as a comparison with Rowett, I raised Pulis to illustrate why our opinions may differ. You clearly don't like Rowett - that's fine and you are at liberty to decide your own criteria for deciding who you consider to be our worst manager. For me how much I like a manager isn't that relevant (which is why I mentioned Pulis) - I'm judging them on the basis of whether they were any good at managing a football team and we've had managers way worse at their job than Rowett. The other key difference is I think we had no chance of getting promoted in the first season we came down (I started the season with high hopes and at half time in the first game against Leeds realised it wasn't going to happen). Rowett has became the lightening rod for the sober realisation that we aren't a Premiership team any more and he has been vilified for a situation he inherited. Rowett is a decent Championship manager and for me at least he really isn't in the same category of awful as Ball and Kamara. But it really isn't something we have to agree on, especially as we have different criteria for what counts as worst and don't agree on our prospects of promotion in that first year after relegation. The biggest problem with Rowett was his signings. He was given a huge amount of money by Championship standards and wasted it pathetically. The only one of his signings than hasn't been a complete failure is McLean who's a decent enough Championship workhorse but even he was well overpriced at £6m and we could have got similar players for a lot less. Maybe Clucas too but again only a qualified success and not worth the money we paid for him. He seemed to go for names but without a plan of where they would fit into our squad and the system he wanted to play. It seemed like he didn't properly assess the players we had, seen where the weaknesses were and signed players that would improve on those positions. Pace was one of the most glaring weaknesses in that relegated squad and he didn't sign anybody with any pace. When you go down you have one shot to spend big to get straight back up before FFP becomes a problem and Rowett utterly wasted that opportunity and his failure has massively hamstrung his successors who are now having to struggle with FFP. That's the main reason why he's so disliked. Just on results alone you'd say his record was just below average. But with the context of all the money he wasted and expensive players he signed on long contracts who flopped and consequently left his successors in a poor position, he deserves the stick he gets. On average only one of the teams relegated bounce straight back and most do it by preserving what they had rather than buying big - like Norwich this season. The teams that turn it round straight away tend to build on what they had, our problem was what we had was falling apart and what we needed (and still need to an extent) is a complete rebuild. Rowett did make some poor signings but he was fishing in the same pool as any other manager - for a club in the position we were in there isn't a queue of talent banging on your door because all the Premiership quality players are queuing at the door of the newly promoted clubs. The club took a punt at bouncing straight back but they underestimated the job at hand. As did the fans - including me up to half time in our first game of that season. I'm not a massive fan of Rowett but I do think a lot of the flack he gets is down to the disappointment of not bouncing straight back but for me that's more to do with the situation Rowett inherited as any mistakes he made. I actually think Lambert is more to blame for our current situation then Rowett - he had some genuinely quality players to hand and he managed to turn us it something worse than the sum of our parts and left us with no momentum or coherence going into the following season. I may be wrong but I don't think any manager was going to get us promoted that first season as we were such a mess. Judging our worst manager is a personal call and for me it's not Rowett in terms of actually being competent - especially when we've had the likes of Ball and Kamara at the helm who genuinely weren't any good. Had the OP been the most disappointing manager rather than worst I'd have Rowett right up there - but that one for me would have to go to Mark Hughes. |
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Post by march4 on Feb 20, 2021 11:40:58 GMT
Still think none of these rank with Alan A’Court.
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Post by Davef on Feb 20, 2021 11:45:58 GMT
Still think none of these rank with Alan A’Court. The bloke was a caretaker, in charge of TWO games! |
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Post by kidcrewbob on Feb 20, 2021 11:52:15 GMT
Joe Jordan was one of the most dislikeable I can recall in the modern era & wasn't much good either......other than that, that Jock Rutherford was a waste of space!
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Post by Trouserdog on Feb 20, 2021 12:00:24 GMT
Rowett isn't the worst manager we've had tactically (he could organise a team at least) but like Rob, I'm shocked by how some people seem to let him off the hook for pissing away our entire transfer warchest.
We were a mess when we came down, no question, but there was absolutely no plan whatsoever when it came to recruitment and tactics. He just did the same thing he's done everywhere: set his team up in a very conservative 4-3-3 and shoehorned whoever he'd signed in a £50m trolley dash into that system. Dreadful.
Alan Ball,Chris Kamara, Brian Little and Nathan Jones are the four I'd nominate as worst ever though, with Ball probably taking the title. The players liked him, he tried his best, but he wanted to be one of the lads, and ultimately the team didn't try hard enough. There was a drinking culture at the club during that time that he did nothing to stamp out and even though we had some quality players who would go on to form the backbone of the squad that were promoted under Macari, he couldn't get them firing at all. Looking back now it seems staggering that a squad containing Peter Fox, John Butler, Ian Cranson, Lee Sandford, Carl Beeston and Wayne Biggins could be so bad, but they really were awful under Ball's leadership.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Feb 20, 2021 12:03:46 GMT
Rowett
Jones
Kamara
Ball
In that order.
Rowett because he blew the best chance of getting straight back up and wasted 50+ million and saddled us with players on big contracts meaning we're hamstrung for years.
Oh and he's an arrogant twat too.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 20, 2021 12:04:26 GMT
The biggest problem with Rowett was his signings. He was given a huge amount of money by Championship standards and wasted it pathetically. The only one of his signings than hasn't been a complete failure is McLean who's a decent enough Championship workhorse but even he was well overpriced at £6m and we could have got similar players for a lot less. Maybe Clucas too but again only a qualified success and not worth the money we paid for him. He seemed to go for names but without a plan of where they would fit into our squad and the system he wanted to play. It seemed like he didn't properly assess the players we had, seen where the weaknesses were and signed players that would improve on those positions. Pace was one of the most glaring weaknesses in that relegated squad and he didn't sign anybody with any pace. When you go down you have one shot to spend big to get straight back up before FFP becomes a problem and Rowett utterly wasted that opportunity and his failure has massively hamstrung his successors who are now having to struggle with FFP. That's the main reason why he's so disliked. Just on results alone you'd say his record was just below average. But with the context of all the money he wasted and expensive players he signed on long contracts who flopped and consequently left his successors in a poor position, he deserves the stick he gets. On average only one of the teams relegated bounce straight back and most do it by preserving what they had rather than buying big - like Norwich this season. The teams that turn it round straight away tend to build on what they had, our problem was what we had was falling apart and what we needed (and still need to an extent) is a complete rebuild. Rowett did make some poor signings but he was fishing in the same pool as any other manager - for a club in the position we were in there isn't a queue of talent banging on your door because all the Premiership quality players are queuing at the door of the newly promoted clubs. The club took a punt at bouncing straight back but they underestimated the job at hand. As did the fans - including me up to half time in our first game of that season. I'm not a massive fan of Rowett but I do think a lot of the flack he gets is down to the disappointment of not bouncing straight back but for me that's more to do with the situation Rowett inherited as any mistakes he made. I actually think Lambert is more to blame for our current situation then Rowett - he had some genuinely quality players to hand and he managed to turn us it something worse than the sum of our parts and left us with no momentum or coherence going into the following season. I may be wrong but I don't think any manager was going to get us promoted that first season as we were such a mess. Judging our worst manager is a personal call and for me it's not Rowett in terms of actually being competent - especially when we've had the likes of Ball and Kamara at the helm who genuinely weren't any good. Had the OP been the most disappointing manager rather than worst I'd have Rowett right up there - but that one for me would have to go to Mark Hughes. A decent manager could’ve done better than he did, even if it wasn’t promotion though. You’re still missing the point about the transfers - he signed players who didn’t fit the specific system he was bent on playing. That’s incompetent even if you buy the ‘fishing in the same pool’ excuse (which I don’t because we had advantages financially that other teams didn’t and we did keep our set up together, which as you point out is a key strength for relegated sides). What shrewd teams do is target the cream of other teams lower down the division or hungry top end League 1 or European-based players. Rowett targeted Ill-fitting has-beens. And again you’ve ignored his dreadful man management. |
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