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Post by chiswickpotter on Oct 29, 2020 11:09:35 GMT
So what's your best XI when everyone is fit? For me its Gunn/Davies Smith Souttar Shawcross Fox Allen Clucas Campbell Powell Verlinden Fletcher At home at least What has Verlinden done to get in ahead of MCClean or Brown? A few cameos most of which has shown limited ability to use the ball effectively
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 11:11:08 GMT
I've defended Brown because he clearly adds value to the squad. Thompson is a league one player at the absolute best and people's defence of him is "it's what you don't see". It's hilarious. The bloke offers absolutely sod all. In lockdown at least Sorensen was kicking players to stop them, Thompson just let them waltz through and that's carried on. Against Brentford we might as well not have had a midfield. Actually I don't think the Luton, Barnsley, Brenford and Swansea games have been that different. A lot to work on in this daft formation and having a midfield that shields the backline has been an issue in all of those games. Mikel hasn't really been effective at it at all. For all of his good play on the ball he hasn't been anywhere close to where I think he'd be defensively. Thompson can't even pass that well. We and especially Mikel and Souttar really missed Thompson in Tuesday night. They continually ran through the left side of our midfield and we had no-one to move the ball forward. Nonsense. Brentford were running through the midfield for fun, as were Barnsley, as were Luton. We gave up something like 16 shots vs Luton. We should have lost to Barnsley at home. The midfield has been missing in all of those games. Thompson did fuck all against Brentford. I honestly don't think the general performance across those games was much different bar Souttar was totally off it against Swansea and Fletcher, Campbell and McClean really clicked against Brentford. We were dreadful vs Luton and Barnsley too.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 11:11:40 GMT
I've defended Brown because he clearly adds value to the squad. Thompson is a league one player at the absolute best and people's defence of him is "it's what you don't see". It's hilarious. The bloke offers absolutely sod all. In lockdown at least Sorensen was kicking players to stop them, Thompson just let them waltz through and that's carried on. Against Brentford we might as well not have had a midfield. Actually I don't think the Luton, Barnsley, Brenford and Swansea games have been that different. A lot to work on in this daft formation and having a midfield that shields the backline has been an issue in all of those games. Mikel hasn't really been effective at it at all. For all of his good play on the ball he hasn't been anywhere close to where I think he'd be defensively. Thompson can't even pass that well. “We’re missing key players at the minute with Sam Clucas, the longer-term with Joe Allen, Nathan was out at Swansea and Jordan Thompson was a big loss." Is that from the manager who said playing Sam Vokes doesn't weaken the team?
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Post by spitthedog on Oct 29, 2020 11:12:15 GMT
For me its Gunn/Davies Smith Souttar Shawcross Fox Allen Clucas Campbell Powell Verlinden Fletcher At home at least What has Verlinden done to get in ahead of MCClean or Brown? A few cameos most of which has shown limited ability to use the ball effectively There is a very unrealistic expectation of Verlinden imho who hasn't actually proven anything at this level yet. He looks like he's got potential, and I'm all for giving players a chance but its amazing how wonderful our players can become when they are not playing
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 11:15:31 GMT
We and especially Mikel and Souttar really missed Thompson in Tuesday night. They continually ran through the left side of our midfield and we had no-one to move the ball forward. Nonsense. Brentford were running through the midfield for fun, as were Barnsley, as were Luton. We gave up something like 16 shots vs Luton. We should have lost to Barnsley at home. The midfield has been missing in all of those games. Thompson did fuck all against Brentford. I honestly don't think the general performance across those games was much different bar Souttar was totally off it against Swansea and Fletcher, Campbell and McClean really clicked against Brentford. We were dreadful vs Luton and Barnsley too. Sorry it was 18 shots we gave up against Luton.
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Post by spitthedog on Oct 29, 2020 11:17:23 GMT
“We’re missing key players at the minute with Sam Clucas, the longer-term with Joe Allen, Nathan was out at Swansea and Jordan Thompson was a big loss." Is that from the manager who said playing Sam Vokes doesn't weaken the team? actually Bayern listen back to that interview carefully I actually came out of it with a ray of hope He said he didn't think including Vokes "would weaken the team"......mmmmm ...that doesn't mean that he's not entirely convinced that he didn't! ...that's my bit of light at the end of the tunnel anyway!!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2020 11:21:08 GMT
For me its Gunn/Davies Smith Souttar Shawcross Fox Allen Clucas Campbell Powell Verlinden Fletcher At home at least What has Verlinden done to get in ahead of MCClean or Brown? A few cameos most of which has shown limited ability to use the ball effectively McLean fair enough although I don't think he suits this system. He a chalk on your boots winger in a 4-4-2. Brown is just shit I'm afraid.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 11:22:57 GMT
Is that from the manager who said playing Sam Vokes doesn't weaken the team? actually Bayern listen back to that interview carefully I actually came out of it with a ray of hope He said he didn't think including Vokes "would weaken the team"......mmmmm ...that doesn't mean that he's not entirely convinced that he didn't! ...that's my bit of light at the end of the tunnel anyway!!! Maybe! I don't get why anyone would start Vokes or Chester ever though. And I will question that person as long as they carry on doing it. I think overall this season we've been poor. We've got good attacking players and they got us out of jail against Luton, Barnsley and Brentford. Which is their job. But the midfield "performance" imo was consistent and the wing back "performance" was too bar McClean against Brentford. As ever the results blinded the performance in the Luton and Barnsley games. Brentford was better but it was down to 3 players.
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Post by gaznandi on Oct 29, 2020 11:27:10 GMT
actually Bayern listen back to that interview carefully I actually came out of it with a ray of hope He said he didn't think including Vokes "would weaken the team"......mmmmm ...that doesn't mean that he's not entirely convinced that he didn't! ...that's my bit of light at the end of the tunnel anyway!!! Maybe! I don't get why anyone would start Vokes or Chester ever though. And I will question that person as long as they carry on doing it. I think overall this season we've been poor. We've got good attacking players and they got us out of jail against Luton, Barnsley and Brentford. Which is their job. But the midfield "performance" imo was consistent and the wing back "performance" was too bar McClean against Brentford. As ever the results blinded the performance in the Luton and Barnsley games. Brentford was better but it was down to 3 players. Never mind, Joe Allen will be back in the new year. All problems solved.
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Post by spitthedog on Oct 29, 2020 11:29:25 GMT
actually Bayern listen back to that interview carefully I actually came out of it with a ray of hope He said he didn't think including Vokes "would weaken the team"......mmmmm ...that doesn't mean that he's not entirely convinced that he didn't! ...that's my bit of light at the end of the tunnel anyway!!! Maybe! I don't get why anyone would start Vokes or Chester ever though. And I will question that person as long as they carry on doing it. I think overall this season we've been poor. We've got good attacking players and they got us out of jail against Luton, Barnsley and Brentford. Which is their job. But the midfield "performance" imo was consistent and the wing back "performance" was too bar McClean against Brentford. As ever the results blinded the performance in the Luton and Barnsley games. Brentford was better but it was down to 3 players. Cant disagree Im a bit concerned about over reliance and the amount of praise heaped on Mikel He's generally good at keeping the ball, but there are glaring downsides in his play I think they are down to fitness limitations, he has massive lapses when I think his energy levels drop (losing his man etc) Campbell is basically our main player. I think Brown can be a different player on the pitch with Campbell, their pace and link up play can be good with Fletcher, that Brentford game showed us that. Brown did a lot of work for the team in that performance. That should be a template to work from. Without Campbell on the pitch though I worry!
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Oct 29, 2020 11:32:34 GMT
Spot on and worryingly a number of these were bought in by this management under the infamous process , brown , Chester, Fox, Thomson , the future is mid table unless we get clucas and Allen back and firing and he deploys the best 11 properly So what's your best XI when everyone is fit? Davies Collins Souttar Baht Smith Allen Clucas Mclean Powell Fletcher Campbell If he insists on this formation if not Davies Smith Collins Souttar Fox Allen Powell Clucas Campbell Fletcher Mclean
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 11:33:28 GMT
Maybe! I don't get why anyone would start Vokes or Chester ever though. And I will question that person as long as they carry on doing it. I think overall this season we've been poor. We've got good attacking players and they got us out of jail against Luton, Barnsley and Brentford. Which is their job. But the midfield "performance" imo was consistent and the wing back "performance" was too bar McClean against Brentford. As ever the results blinded the performance in the Luton and Barnsley games. Brentford was better but it was down to 3 players. Never mind, Joe Allen will be back in the new year. All problems solved. The answer was "yes"
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 11:36:39 GMT
Maybe! I don't get why anyone would start Vokes or Chester ever though. And I will question that person as long as they carry on doing it. I think overall this season we've been poor. We've got good attacking players and they got us out of jail against Luton, Barnsley and Brentford. Which is their job. But the midfield "performance" imo was consistent and the wing back "performance" was too bar McClean against Brentford. As ever the results blinded the performance in the Luton and Barnsley games. Brentford was better but it was down to 3 players. Cant disagree Im a bit concerned about over reliance and the amount of praise heaped on Mikel He's generally good at keeping the ball, but there are glaring downsides in his play I think they are down to fitness limitations, he has massive lapses when I think his energy levels drop (losing his man etc) Campbell is basically our main player. I think Brown can be a different player on the pitch with Campbell, their pace and link up play can be good with Fletcher, that Brentford game showed us that. Brown did a lot of work for the team in that performance. That should be a template to work from. Without Campbell on the pitch though I worry! I think Mikel has been a steady 6/10 so far and the wanking him off, I agree, I don't get. He's been a revelation on the ball for me, I'm not going to lie. But with that defensively I think he's been poor. And as you say tactfully say, he's not been helped by the manager with the amount of games he's played. Agreed although I think Brown was a lot steadier than you did that game.
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Post by crapslinger on Oct 29, 2020 11:39:50 GMT
Fortunately a player's future scoring output is correlated to the quality of chances they get on the end of, rather than the number of actual goals they score in a single season. The 50 "worst" finishers in the Championship since 2014/15 scored 324 goals from chances that an average striker would expect to score 481 goals. Truely "awful" finishers. The next season they scored 303 goals from chances worth 298. They had fewer chances because they played fewer minutes because team managers can be as dumb as the Barnsley fans were about Brown. Evidently we weren't put off by his "poor finishing". He's a decent attacking threat (One xG every 4.5 games) with a similar level of chance creation numbers. It still doesn’t address the fact we can only play 2 strikers at one time. Lee Gregory can’t finish ones of our xGs when he’s not in the squad. Accepting that Brown might score 10 goals in a season from 4.5 games means he needs to play every game of the season to get to that figure. I’m not sure we should book the promotion bus for his output which goes back to the point I was making which is I don’t think we needed him because he doesn’t improve the squad. Bang on yet again we have signed at best another very average player there is something fundamentally wrong with the transfer process at the club however until the owners admit that and carry on down the same old well trodden path to oblivion nothing will change, we loan out the "better" players and replace them with inferior dross.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 29, 2020 11:55:29 GMT
He’s a bog standard bits and pieces league one forward. I’m not a fan of these “versatile” players in starting elevens.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 11:56:50 GMT
He’s a bog standard bits and pieces league one forward. I’m not a fan of these “versatile” players in starting elevens. We needed someone that could cover up front and the right wing with a bit of pace though. And I think he can do that and he's useful. But he shouldn't be starting week in, week out.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 29, 2020 11:59:19 GMT
He’s a bog standard bits and pieces league one forward. I’m not a fan of these “versatile” players in starting elevens. We needed someone that could cover up front and the right wing with a bit of pace though. And I think he can do that and he's useful. But he shouldn't be starting week in, week out. Kind of what I’m saying. He should be an “impact” sub, not starting barring an injury crisis.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 12:02:39 GMT
We needed someone that could cover up front and the right wing with a bit of pace though. And I think he can do that and he's useful. But he shouldn't be starting week in, week out. Kind of what I’m saying. He should be an “impact” sub, not starting barring an injury crisis. Definitely. My one worry with him is if he was bought to replace Campbell. They're stratosphere's apart.
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Post by hardcastle on Oct 29, 2020 13:01:43 GMT
We'll here's a more optimistic perspective: so far we've been pretty mediocre this season (bar the first hour vs Brentford and the League cup games). But we're ninth. I'll take that. The younger players are getting game time. Some of them will go on to become regulars. TOB, Thommo, Brown, Tymon, Collins. Maybe maybe. Only Campbell and Souttar you can say have really broken through. We've turned a corner.
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Post by tachyon on Oct 29, 2020 13:26:00 GMT
Fortunately a player's future scoring output is correlated to the quality of chances they get on the end of, rather than the number of actual goals they score in a single season. The 50 "worst" finishers in the Championship since 2014/15 scored 324 goals from chances that an average striker would expect to score 481 goals. Truely "awful" finishers. The next season they scored 303 goals from chances worth 298. They had fewer chances because they played fewer minutes because team managers can be as dumb as the Barnsley fans were about Brown. Evidently we weren't put off by his "poor finishing". He's a decent attacking threat (One xG every 4.5 games) with a similar level of chance creation numbers. It still doesn’t address the fact we can only play 2 strikers at one time. Lee Gregory can’t finish ones of our xGs when he’s not in the squad. Accepting that Brown might score 10 goals in a season from 4.5 games means he needs to play every game of the season to get to that figure. I’m not sure we should book the promotion bus for his output which goes back to the point I was making which is I don’t think we needed him because he doesn’t improve the squad. He's 22, two years before he starts to enter his peak years. He ranked third for xG & second for xA, playing 80% of the available minutes for Barnsley. He's potentially a very good addition to an ageing squad, where other recruitment constraints exist.
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Post by tachyon on Oct 29, 2020 14:42:01 GMT
Nonsense. Brentford were running through the midfield for fun, as were Barnsley, as were Luton. We gave up something like 16 shots vs Luton. We should have lost to Barnsley at home. The midfield has been missing in all of those games. Thompson did fuck all against Brentford. I honestly don't think the general performance across those games was much different bar Souttar was totally off it against Swansea and Fletcher, Campbell and McClean really clicked against Brentford. We were dreadful vs Luton and Barnsley too. People see different things in the same game. Cool. An opponent turns possession over a lot of the time because you are controlling the passing lanes, keeping your shape etc. Saw lots of that vs Brentford, won't show up in tackle counts off course, but no-one really takes those stats very seriously nowadays. Luton had 18 attempts, around half after we led, so game effects. They were also terrible shot locations or headers. Pretty comfortable in both games, bar the obligatory near foot shooting in injury time vs the Bees.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 14:55:51 GMT
Nonsense. Brentford were running through the midfield for fun, as were Barnsley, as were Luton. We gave up something like 16 shots vs Luton. We should have lost to Barnsley at home. The midfield has been missing in all of those games. Thompson did fuck all against Brentford. I honestly don't think the general performance across those games was much different bar Souttar was totally off it against Swansea and Fletcher, Campbell and McClean really clicked against Brentford. We were dreadful vs Luton and Barnsley too. People see different things in the same game. Cool. An opponent turns possession over a lot of the time because you are controlling the passing lanes, keeping your shape etc. Saw lots of that vs Brentford, won't show up in tackle counts off course, but no-one really takes those stats very seriously nowadays. Luton had 18 attempts, around half after we led, so game effects. They were also terrible shot locations or headers. Pretty comfortable in both games, bar the obligatory near foot shooting in injury time vs the Bees. We were atrocious in the first half vs Luton, far worse than Swansea imo but they're just a better side. Brentford had free reign to do the passing they wanted and like all of the teams above did, they played little diagonals between the wing back and wide centre back. The difference that game was that going forward we were actually really good. Mikel and Thompson for me were pretty piss poor against Brentford.
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Post by tachyon on Oct 29, 2020 16:22:08 GMT
Brentford had free reign to do the passing they wanted and like all of the teams above did, they played little diagonals between the wing back and wide centre back. The difference that game was that going forward we were actually really good. Mikel and Thompson for me were pretty piss poor against Brentford. It looked an acceptable concession to let Brentford have the ball there to strengthen elsewhere. I thought M & T were key players in keeping Brentford to their lowest xG created this season (even with Tymon's error). The pair were tremendous out of possession. Take out the sloppy backpass & you have to go back to September 2019 to find a side who limited Brentford to such poor chances. It was a cracking team effort against the league's best team.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 29, 2020 16:27:23 GMT
Brentford had free reign to do the passing they wanted and like all of the teams above did, they played little diagonals between the wing back and wide centre back. The difference that game was that going forward we were actually really good. Mikel and Thompson for me were pretty piss poor against Brentford. It looked an acceptable concession to let Brentford have the ball there to strengthen elsewhere. I thought M & T were key players in keeping Brentford to their lowest xG created this season (even with Tymon's error). The pair were tremendous out of possession. Take out the sloppy backpass & you have to go back to September 2019 to find a side who limited Brentford to such poor chances. It was a cracking team effort against the league's best team. I thought that was down more to them just being off it for 70 minutes and apparently they started with a 3 at the back that hasn't been working for them and changed it second half. And it did make a difference. I just didn't think Mikel and Thompson were in the game at all. I don't think Mikel has been very good at shielding the backline at all tbh but his class on the ball has more than made it up for it.
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Post by superalexneil on Oct 29, 2020 16:35:26 GMT
Hes average. At best, squad filler, slightly better than ince and probably on less money
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Post by tachyon on Oct 29, 2020 17:23:29 GMT
I thought that was down more to them just being off it for 70 minutes and apparently they started with a 3 at the back that hasn't been working for them and changed it second half. And it did make a difference. I just didn't think Mikel and Thompson were in the game at all. I don't think Mikel has been very good at shielding the backline at all tbh but his class on the ball has more than made it up for it. They've started with a 4 every game this year, except us & Luton away (which they also lost) so you could say they didn't help themsleves. I'd like to think our disciplined & aggressive defending from the front also played a part :-) Most teams would take Luton's 18 shots, given the lack of quality. They fail to score in around 50% of such games & just score once in another 30% of matches. Two good defensive showings. Mikel did lose Dalsgaard when he got caught in traffic for a late near post corner, though!
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Post by spitthedog on Oct 29, 2020 17:24:27 GMT
This thread is full of incredible experts who are confident enough to write a player off after 7 games. A player who has been asked to play in about 5 different positions so far.
I'm so impressed.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Oct 29, 2020 18:07:48 GMT
It still doesn’t address the fact we can only play 2 strikers at one time. Lee Gregory can’t finish ones of our xGs when he’s not in the squad. Accepting that Brown might score 10 goals in a season from 4.5 games means he needs to play every game of the season to get to that figure. I’m not sure we should book the promotion bus for his output which goes back to the point I was making which is I don’t think we needed him because he doesn’t improve the squad. He's 22, two years before he starts to enter his peak years. He ranked third for xG & second for xA, playing 80% of the available minutes for Barnsley. He's potentially a very good addition to an ageing squad, where other recruitment constraints exist. I hope you're right and I'm wrong and Jacob ends up being great value for money but at what point do we have to question the lack of strategy within the club? Taking this transfer in its context we have to ask whether it was really necessary. We must have a huge wage bill that can't be helping the our long term prospects with FFP. If we evaluated Jacob by asking whether our starting 11 is better with him or without him, I think the answer as others have referenced is it could be argued either way. If the plan is to develop young players that's what we should do and we won't get there by having Gregory, Vokes and Fletcher sharing his time. If we're signing experienced players to push for promotion like Fletcher does Brown fit the bill? To me it doesn't make much sense.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 4, 2020 21:06:23 GMT
Did he play right wing back tonight?
How’d he do?
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Post by lordb on Nov 4, 2020 21:07:15 GMT
Did he play right wing back tonight? How’d he do? Yes Got done for the third goal
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