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Post by slicko on Jun 14, 2020 8:53:53 GMT
This post is for open, frank and honest discussion about what causes racism. If it descends into anything nasty from all races on The Oatcake, I’ll ask admin to delete it.
I hear the white race are institutionally racist beyond their comprehension. I feel the label is sometimes weilded as an insult and used to keep races apart.
Would it be fair to say that other ethnic groups in the U.K. such as Asian, Romany Gypsy and People of Colour are “conditionally racist” due to them being educated by their peers in the belief that they have experienced years of oppression?
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Post by musik on Jun 14, 2020 9:06:41 GMT
What is a racist? We should begin with a definition. In Sweden a racist is considered to be anyone who thinks people look differently from each other, without any evaluation.
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Post by slicko on Jun 14, 2020 9:48:22 GMT
What is a racist? We should begin with a definition. In Sweden a racist is considered to be anyone who thinks people look differently from each other, without any evaluation. I look different from you no doubt. The only person I may not look different to is an identical twin. I hate you no more than I hate myself. That definition is problematic. Unique characteristics - not race characteristics?
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Post by musik on Jun 14, 2020 9:58:06 GMT
In Sweden there is no such thing as a race - except "the human race". So to believe there are differences in how people look is per definition to make some evaluation between different people. That's silly.
To clarify: I think there are differences, I know there are. It's obvious. I believe in reincarnation, and I don't do evaluations. Everyone matters.
In other words, the swedish definition is wrong.
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 14, 2020 9:59:34 GMT
This post is for open, frank and honest discussion about what causes racism. If it descends into anything nasty from all races on The Oatcake, I’ll ask admin to delete it. I hear the white race are institutionally racist beyond their comprehension. I feel the label is sometimes weilded as an insult and used to keep races apart. Would it be fair to say that other ethnic groups in the U.K. such as Asian, Romany Gypsy and People of Colour are “conditionally racist” due to them being educated by their peers in the belief that they have experienced years of oppression? I have not heard anyone say that about white people, I have heard it said about things such as the police, home office etc etc are institutionally racist against non white people that doesnt mean everyone working there is a member of the KKK it means people who are not white get different and mostly worse outcomes than white people. Whilst there is something in that, no pun intended I dont think the matter is as black or white as that, outcomes in the criminal justice at lower levels can be massively influenced by the quality of legal representation you can afford, the less well off you are the poorer the representation and the worse your outcome, upbringing, education are all factors too.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 14, 2020 10:15:31 GMT
There are huge numbers of books dedicated to the issue of what causes racism and we'd only ever scratch the surface here.
I think musik is right that you need to start at the beginning, but in my opinion that means going way back to when we were all hunter/gatherers roaming around in groups of about 150 max. Any other group that was in any way different was a potential threat and threats induce fear, fear induces hatred and then aggression. It's easy to see how that process has been abused for political ends over centuries. You can see the same emotions being displayed at football matches up and down the country every Saturday (by the dimmer crowd members I have to say).
My point is it's ingrained in us to a large extent for survival reasons and has been since before we evolved as modern humans. It worked to keep us alive in an environment before agriculture and settlement, when food was a much more competitive resource. 12,000 years of civilisation won't get rid of it that quickly.
But, that's the point. We are now civilised (supposedly), with a brain which is able to reason that we shouldn't need to have this innate fear of people who are different in some way and might have been a threat to our resources previously. Or at least recognise it and be able to rationalise it away.
I think once you realise that, rational people recognise that the overwhelming majority of people who are different from them bring no threat and therefore no fear: no need to be racist.
I have to conclude that those who are racist are so because they've never managed to get through that thought process for themselves. The abundance of 'them and us' type newspaper headlines really doesn't help, regardless of who the target is supposed to be, all it serves to do is create the threat once again. This is basically the process:
“Of course the people don’t want war [division/racism]. But after all, it’s the leaders [influencers] of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders [influencers]. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists [anti-racists] for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”
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Post by vokeswagen on Jun 14, 2020 10:19:38 GMT
This post is for open, frank and honest discussion about what causes racism. If it descends into anything nasty from all races on The Oatcake, I’ll ask admin to delete it. I hear the white race are institutionally racist beyond their comprehension. I feel the label is sometimes weilded as an insult and used to keep races apart. Would it be fair to say that other ethnic groups in the U.K. such as Asian, Romany Gypsy and People of Colour are “conditionally racist” due to them being educated by their peers in the belief that they have experienced years of oppression? You've started the thread with a problematic statement, in that the oppression to which you refer is not a "belief", it's a provable fact in terms of arrest rates, job opportunities, education levels, poverty levels and all manner of other parameters. As a society I think energy would be much focused on why that oppression happens/happened, and what can be done to stop it in future. Instead we're chronically bogged down in a slanging match over who's racist, and endless whataboutery over who's been hardest done to, who's behaving worse in the present moment, etc. The whole climate right now, where you can only be either antifa or racist, "the left" or "the right" and nowhere in between, is sadly not at all conducive to actually finding a solution.
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Post by musik on Jun 14, 2020 10:28:39 GMT
We are now civilised (supposedly), with a brain which is able to reason that we shouldn't need to have this innate fear of people who are different in some way and might have been a threat to our resources previously. Or at least recognise it and be able to rationalise it away. I think once you realise that, rational people recognise that the overwhelming majority of people who are different from them bring no threat and therefore no fear: no need to be racist. But, the threat to our resources is just what is causing racism TODAY. History repeats itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 10:29:02 GMT
This post is for open, frank and honest discussion about what causes racism. If it descends into anything nasty from all races on The Oatcake, I’ll ask admin to delete it. I hear the white race are institutionally racist beyond their comprehension. I feel the label is sometimes weilded as an insult and used to keep races apart. Would it be fair to say that other ethnic groups in the U.K. such as Asian, Romany Gypsy and People of Colour are “conditionally racist” due to them being educated by their peers in the belief that they have experienced years of oppression? Racism is often borne from a lack of understanding. A lack of understanding is often a byproduct of a lack of education. We have to focus on what links us and not what divides us. And often that comes down to our ridiculously antiquated class system. So it starts with education, no child is born a racist. Every child should be given an equal start in life from an educational perspective. Look over to Finland, a world class pre-school set up, and a fair education system free of private schools to allow kids to thrive based on their ability and work rate, and not on the cards they were dealt when they were born. And let’s get the British Empire, it’s links to slavery, and conflicts other than the two major wars in the curriculum and discussed warts and all. But this takes major rethinking on the part of our electorate and politicians. If you look at our politicians, comedians, journalists etc. very often they are Oxbridge educated, whether they are white or BAME. So is it a race issue, or a class issue? The two are intrinsically linked. If you’re a white working class factory worker from Moss Side, who do you have more in common with? Is it Jacob Rhys Mogg in his Somerset stately home with his 19th century values, or is it the Iraqi van driver or the Afro-Caribbean refuse collector from up the road? Because I almost guarantee the fears around health, education, housing, the safety of their kids will be the same. We’re fed a constant diet of news that tells us that life is shit because of these people, when the reality is far different. It often boils down to the oppressed v the oppressors, and not race. Tackle the inequality in our society, tackle our unfair education system, and in a couple of generations time you will see that racism will become far less prevalent in our society, in our institutions, our boardrooms, and importantly in our main stream media.
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Post by slicko on Jun 14, 2020 10:31:43 GMT
Can anyone on here accept statements in the media that the white population are racist by choice, by conditioning or by default?
I believe I am neither but that’s not considered valid if the above argument is true.
Can this generation of The white population ever become non-racist?
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Post by yes on Jun 14, 2020 10:34:15 GMT
In Sweden there is no such thing as a race - except "the human race". So to believe there are differences in how people look is per definition to make some evaluation between different people. That's silly. To clarify: I think there are differences, I know there are. It's obvious. I believe in reincarnation, and I don't do evaluations. Everyone matters. In other words, the swedish definition is wrong. As well intentioned as it is, it's my belief that the differences should be appreciated and celebrated. By not really 'seeing' race, it may lead to more misunderstandings and people behave more to their norms.
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Post by richie22 on Jun 14, 2020 10:38:55 GMT
What is racist, I’m buggered if I know anymore. I’m certain in one thing tho that those that I know personally to be rabid racist loons are confused as hell. I know two fellas thru work that were on that counter protest yesterday, there words not mine, ‘I’m not racist I have loads of black mates’ indeed they work with a fella who was born and raised in the Caribbean. But they hate the BLM protests last week, they were there yesterday because of Muslim grooming gangs!! They can’t take in the different racial and religious groups that live in this country, they also didn’t accept that Winston Churchill was known to possess certain views that were abit distasteful ‘he took us thru war’ ( his bad points there in complete denial of) similar numptys also tend to hijack rememberance Sunday with there army drivel, perfect stock Englishman fought and won the war, all perfect John Wayne types. Complete denial of the empire and soldiers of every colour that came from every corner to fight for the greater good. These confused souls need educating at an early age, they need to learn about all people, if it works for them, put it into there ‘army terms’ Gurkhas/ sikhs/ Canadians/ Aussies etc etc etc all make a world and there all on the same team . I don’t like Tony Blair but...
EDUCATION. EDUCATION. EDUCATION
Looking forward to work tomorrow, break time filled with videos of the morons Havin’it , how many likes on facefuck? Fuck me, in the three words thread for last year I said to much hate, how the hell do we describe this year . ALL LIVES MATTER
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 14, 2020 10:43:13 GMT
We are now civilised (supposedly), with a brain which is able to reason that we shouldn't need to have this innate fear of people who are different in some way and might have been a threat to our resources previously. Or at least recognise it and be able to rationalise it away. I think once you realise that, rational people recognise that the overwhelming majority of people who are different from them bring no threat and therefore no fear: no need to be racist. But, the threat to our resources is just what is causing racism TODAY. History repeats itself. In the western world, where is the actual, real threat to resources for the vast majority of people that leads to racism on the grounds I've outlined above ie some other group of 'different' people might come along and steal what I've got and I starve?
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Post by slicko on Jun 14, 2020 10:59:58 GMT
Consider this:
Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard!
My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange!
Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92]
In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95]
Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98]
On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99]
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Post by vokeswagen on Jun 14, 2020 11:31:00 GMT
Can anyone on here accept statements in the media that the white population are racist by choice, by conditioning or by default? I believe I am neither but that’s not considered valid if the above argument is true. Can this generation of The white population ever become non-racist? I haven't read any statements from the media that the white population as a whole is racist. If there are such statements then that's obviously ludicrous. In terms of whether it's possible to be conditioned to be racist, that's absolutely possible and there are plenty of historical examples to demonstrate it unfortunately. Off the top of my head, Rwanda, Uganda, India, Japan, the Balkans, and yes here in the UK and also in the US. South Africa of course too. It's a really difficult one, the question over whether you believe you're racist or not. You may believe you're not and someone else may believe you are. The only way to get past that really is to discuss the issue, understand each other, and then adapt behaviours. To educate each other. That's sadly very difficult to achieve atm, and I believe a huge part of that is down to the internet and social media.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 11:31:26 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] Let’s talk Raheem Sterling for a moment, why was he panned by the right wing press over non-stories that Harry Kane was lauded for?(buying a house for their mum, buying a new super car etc.) If it wasn’t borne out of racism whether unconscious or not them I’m fucked if I know what it was.....
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Post by marylandstoke on Jun 14, 2020 11:37:33 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] Maybe you should have just started an “I dislike Ashley Cole” thread. Would have save a lot of time. Whilst we struggle to define (as a word, not in the broad picture) “racism” I would suggest from the above “accidentally” in this case meant ‘raised a weapon knowing it was loaded, aimed and shot someone whilst being goaded’ Allegedly, as I remember, unless I dreamt it
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jun 14, 2020 11:42:12 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] There is also the issue of "are they good enough". Sol Campbell taking to social media because he wasn’t being considered for an England managerial role and, to keep things balanced, Phil Brown claiming to be England Manager in waiting following his "success" at Hull. Where are both of these now? If you’re good enough then colour shouldn’t matter. But sadly I think it does.
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Post by elystokie on Jun 14, 2020 11:42:32 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] I'm struggling to see the relevance of this impressive lengthy diatribe to your original post and presumably the purpose of your thread, I must be missing something.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jun 14, 2020 11:48:12 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] I think this was actually Sol Campbell that Sterling was referring to? Could be wrong. Anyway I think this is unhelpful tbh because Campbell may simply not be a very good manager. Which would have nothing to do with his skin colour. It's entirely valid and right to point to the relative lack of black managers overall as a proportion of the whole. Let's absolutely get more BAME managers into the dugouts full stop. But let's not read too much into this one case, as though it's definitely reflective of an overall trend. It may be, but equally it may not be, and I don't see that it's possible to be certain either way.
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Post by slicko on Jun 14, 2020 11:50:57 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] Maybe you should have just started an “I dislike Ashley Cole” thread. Would have save a lot of time. Whilst we struggle to define (as a word, not in the broad picture) “racism” I would suggest from the above “accidentally” in this case meant ‘raised a weapon knowing it was loaded, aimed and shot someone whilst being goaded’ Allegedly, as I remember, unless I dreamt it Steady on, I don’t dislike Ashley Cole but do not see him as manager material yet. The rap sheet was from Wikipedia and not my own words.
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Post by slicko on Jun 14, 2020 11:52:48 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] I'm struggling to see the relevance of this impressive lengthy diatribe to your original post and presumably the purpose of your thread, I must be missing something. Not the purpose of the post, not my lengthy diatribe just a complete copy and paste from Wikipedia.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jun 14, 2020 11:53:39 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] Let’s talk Raheem Sterling for a moment, why was he panned by the right wing press over non-stories that Harry Kane was lauded for?(buying a house for their mum, buying a new super car etc.) If it wasn’t borne out of racism whether unconscious or not them I’m fucked if I know what it was..... Totally agree with this and it seems to me a pretty clear cut example of racism. Ditto Meghan Markle's treatment vs Kate Middleton's. I think in these sorts of instances, where you have clear data to show one case vs the other against the same measurements, it's pretty objectively and empirically racist. And let's be clear - disgusting.
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Post by slicko on Jun 14, 2020 11:54:13 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] I think this was actually Sol Campbell that Sterling was referring to? Could be wrong. Anyway I think this is unhelpful tbh because Campbell may simply not be a very good manager. Which would have nothing to do with his skin colour. It's entirely valid and right to point to the relative lack of black managers overall as a proportion of the whole. Let's absolutely get more BAME managers into the dugouts full stop. But let's not read too much into this one case, as though it's definitely reflective of an overall trend. It may be, but equally it may not be, and I don't see that it's possible to be certain either way.In fairness Sterling mentioned both Cole and Campbell.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jun 14, 2020 11:55:35 GMT
I think this was actually Sol Campbell that Sterling was referring to? Could be wrong. Anyway I think this is unhelpful tbh because Campbell may simply not be a very good manager. Which would have nothing to do with his skin colour. It's entirely valid and right to point to the relative lack of black managers overall as a proportion of the whole. Let's absolutely get more BAME managers into the dugouts full stop. But let's not read too much into this one case, as though it's definitely reflective of an overall trend. It may be, but equally it may not be, and I don't see that it's possible to be certain either way.In fairness Sterling mentioned both Cole and Campbell. Ah right fair dos, didn't hear the bit about Cole.
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Post by slicko on Jun 14, 2020 11:57:59 GMT
In fairness Sterling mentioned both Cole and Campbell. Ah right fair dos, didn't hear the bit about Cole. That said, I wouldn’t consider Joey Barton to be suitable manager material but he was given the chance at Fleetwood?
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Post by vokeswagen on Jun 14, 2020 12:02:19 GMT
Ah right fair dos, didn't hear the bit about Cole. That said, I wouldn’t consider Joey Barton to be suitable manager material but he was given the chance at Fleetwood? I think if you wanted to look at the data in a particular way, you could argue that Joey Barton actually being taken seriously enough to appear on cunting Newsnight for fuck's sake, was the beginning of the end of civilisation as we know it
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Post by NassauDave on Jun 14, 2020 13:06:42 GMT
What is a racist? We should begin with a definition. In Sweden a racist is considered to be anyone who thinks people look differently from each other, without any evaluation. That’s because you are all blonde, every one of you.
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Post by NassauDave on Jun 14, 2020 13:13:26 GMT
Consider this: Raheem Sterling said Ashley Cole didn’t get the managerial opportunities of Steven Gerard and Frank Lampard! My recollection Ashley Cole was a trouble maker who never led a club like a Captain. He’s totally unsuitable to management of a football club character-wise, Black, White or dayglo Orange! Cole began a relationship with Girls Aloud singer Cheryl Tweedy in September 2004, when they were living in the same block of flats in London; they married on 15 July 2006 in Wrotham Park, Hertfordshire.[88] In January 2008, the couple almost separated after allegations were made that Cole had affairs with three other women. He, however, disputed the allegations and the couple stayed together.[89] It was announced on 23 February 2010 that the couple would separate following new allegations of adultery.[90] Three months later, it was announced that Cheryl was filing for divorce. They officially divorced on 3 September 2010.[91] Cole has a son (born 2016) and a daughter (born 2018) with the Italian model Sharon Canu.[92] In 2006, Cole sued the News of the World and The Sun newspapers for libel after they printed allegations that he was involved in a "homosexual orgy".[93] Both papers retracted the allegations. That same year, Cole released an autobiography titled, My Defence, which sold 4,000 copies in the first six weeks of release.[94] Cole's former teammate, Jens Lehmann, criticised Cole for writing an autobiography when he was 25.[95] Cole has had a couple of minor brushes with the police. On 4 March 2009 he was held after swearing in front of a police officer outside a South Kensington nightclub. He was taken to a police station and issued with an £80 Fixed Penalty Notice before being released.[96] On 4 January 2010, Cole was convicted of a speeding offence committed on 17 November 2009. He was recorded exceeding the speed limit by doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone on the A3 road in Kingston upon Thames, a residential stretch. His defence at Kingston Magistrates Court, opposing the charge in his absence, argued unsuccessfully that the police speed gun was faulty. Cole also claimed that his actions were excuseable because he was trying to evade the paparazzi.[97] On 29 January he was fined £1000 and disqualified from driving for four months.[98] On 27 February 2011, Cole accidentally shot Tom Cowan, a 21-year-old sports science student on work experience at Chelsea, with a .22 calibre air rifle from only five feet away at the club's Cobham Training Centre, apparently unaware that the rifle was loaded. Cole formally apologised to Cowan, and discussed the incident with Chelsea officials.[99] There is also the issue of "are they good enough". Sol Campbell taking to social media because he wasn’t being considered for an England managerial role and, to keep things balanced, Phil Brown claiming to be England Manager in waiting following his "success" at Hull. Where are both of these now? If you’re good enough then colour shouldn’t matter. But sadly I think it does. Phil Brown feels that he was not given the same opportunities because of his colour. Orange lives matter!
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Post by musik on Jun 14, 2020 13:44:17 GMT
What is a racist? We should begin with a definition. In Sweden a racist is considered to be anyone who thinks people look differently from each other, without any evaluation. That’s because you are all blonde, every one of you. But I'm no fan of that definition. In school (when I was 10-12 years young) I had a class teacher who admired that definition, and as a proof used: "Dig up anyone at the graveyard and you'll find we all look the same." I actually have hazel coloured eyes though ... 🤪
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