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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 17, 2020 7:54:01 GMT
It's you connecting the dots sheik. All you've done is listed a series of inadequacies and disparities which probably have dozens of complex and intersecting contributory factors, some of which could potentially be race-related. Or might not be. If you're trying to substantiate a charge of *institutional* racism - i.e. routine, targeted discrimination at organisational level, it's just weak. Inequality and disparity do not automatically equal discrimination. This is something a lot of people really could do with getting their heads around at the moment. You seem be setting an arena where it is never possible to measure the factors that indicate racism! I think you’re far too certain about things that are far from certain.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 17, 2020 8:20:33 GMT
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Post by Little Gary Patel on Jun 17, 2020 8:25:23 GMT
Its called profiling it is illegal and racist. Is it really sounds like common sense to me and to London's mayor despite pledging to stop all stop and search in his campaign.
From the Independent: 2018
Mr Khan said the Metropolitan Police was “ramping up its fight against violent crime”, adding: “This will include a significant increase in the use of targeted stop and search by the police across our city.
Strange that maybe London becoming the murder Capital of the World change his mind
any link to these stats? higher murder rate than Juarez? I wouldn't usually waste my time but you appeared to be very concerned about libel laws & facts on the oatcake
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 17, 2020 8:31:14 GMT
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 17, 2020 8:31:27 GMT
You seem be setting an arena where it is never possible to measure the factors that indicate racism! The common response is that the issues are "extremely complexed" (they absolutely are). But take the conversation on to the next level about how we achieve true equality by radically changing our political system and people's eyes glaze over. That's the crux of it. Oxbridge graduates are running our banks and institutions, dominating our politics, our MSM and clinging on to neo-liberalism because it helps them get richer and more powerful. They don't give a shit which party takes power, as long as some form of the status quo remains. And in the meantime we all hold up a BLM# banner and have polite conversations about "how this shouldn't be happening in the 21st century" And working class communities up and down the country are duped into believing that the black Somalian immigrant that delivers pizzas, or the Bangladeshi taxi driver are their enemy, when they have much more in common with them than they ever will have with Jacob Rhys Mogg. And if we ever get to that position where kids from deprived areas are able to go to a good school irrespective of their circumstances, where hard work pays for all, and where communities pitted against each other can all earn a decent living wage for their labour, watch racism disappear within a couple of generations. End the politics of divide and conquer, stop buying newspapers and paying for news from toxic organisations and the problem goes a long way to being solved...... This is absolutely the crux for me. (excellent post btw) The fact is the white working class (or under class) and the BAME under class communities are the two groups of people who have the most in common in our society. They should be working together because they are under fire from the same elite. 400 years of unabated colonialism was engineered by an establishment class in our society that still largely dictates the way our society works today. On all levels both social, economic and culturally. That mode of capitalism and its perpetrators enslaved large numbers of black people abroad and large numbers of white people at home, i.e our working classes (our grandparents and so on) This whole countries wealth was based on colonial exploitation over centuries and main sufferers were black people. though everyone was really working for a exploitative capitalist system that was prepared to go to great and violent lengths to achieve its goals of massive wealth accumulation in the hands a relative small number of people. They still own this wealth for the most part. There are some important distinctions to be made. White working class people to some extent were able to profit from colonialism indirectly most notably in the 60s and 70s. So for example, I, as w/class kid was able to go to University and got my fees paid and ended up being a teacher and buy a decent house etc. These were still relatively few because of the low levels of aspiration in that class built on generations of virtual enslavement. I still cant forget the graphic images of my grandad returning exhausted everyday from 12 hour shifts from the pits he worked in all his life and dying from lung disease just 4 days after he retired. He was worked like a horse. When low wage black workers were needed in this country the establishment called on them. When the economy started going pear shaped the establishment (expressed through our media predominantly) managed to persuade those at the bottom rungs that it was someone else at the bottom rungs fault. This was easy to exploit because of the huge insecurities in these communities based on economic fragility. I.e Fear!!!...don't underestimate Fear! To me a huge problem in this country has always been deference towards the establishment. The Establishment (these are the wealth owners lets not forget ) have even reinvented the term Establishment to kid people into thinking this a negative term for those who want to change anything and equate them with negative labels like Political Correctness, liberals, virtue signalling. Divide and Conquer defines our social, political, cultural and economic experience in this country. Yes there is more awareness of this than ever before, yes there have been positive steps made, but there is a long, long way to go imho.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 17, 2020 9:04:15 GMT
Is it really sounds like common sense to me and to London's mayor despite pledging to stop all stop and search in his campaign.
From the Independent: 2018
Mr Khan said the Metropolitan Police was “ramping up its fight against violent crime”, adding: “This will include a significant increase in the use of targeted stop and search by the police across our city.
Strange that maybe London becoming the murder Capital of the World change his mind
any link to these stats? higher murder rate than Juarez? I wouldn't usually waste my time but you appeared to be very concerned about libel laws & facts on the oatcake London wouldn't be anywhere remotely near the like of Cape Town or Caracas either. Just Daily Mail tripe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 9:16:30 GMT
The common response is that the issues are "extremely complexed" (they absolutely are). But take the conversation on to the next level about how we achieve true equality by radically changing our political system and people's eyes glaze over. That's the crux of it. Oxbridge graduates are running our banks and institutions, dominating our politics, our MSM and clinging on to neo-liberalism because it helps them get richer and more powerful. They don't give a shit which party takes power, as long as some form of the status quo remains. And in the meantime we all hold up a BLM# banner and have polite conversations about "how this shouldn't be happening in the 21st century" And working class communities up and down the country are duped into believing that the black Somalian immigrant that delivers pizzas, or the Bangladeshi taxi driver are their enemy, when they have much more in common with them than they ever will have with Jacob Rhys Mogg. And if we ever get to that position where kids from deprived areas are able to go to a good school irrespective of their circumstances, where hard work pays for all, and where communities pitted against each other can all earn a decent living wage for their labour, watch racism disappear within a couple of generations. End the politics of divide and conquer, stop buying newspapers and paying for news from toxic organisations and the problem goes a long way to being solved...... This is absolutely the crux for me. (excellent post btw) The fact is the white working class (or under class) and the BAME under class communities are the two groups of people who have the most in common in our society. They should be working together because they are under fire from the same elite. 400 years of unabated colonialism was engineered by an establishment class in our society that still largely dictates the way our society works today. On all levels both social, economic and culturally. That mode of capitalism and its perpetrators enslaved large numbers of black people abroad and large numbers of white people at home, i.e our working classes (our grandparents and so on) This whole countries wealth was based on colonial exploitation over centuries and main sufferers were black people. though everyone was really working for a exploitative capitalist system that was prepared to go to great and violent lengths to achieve its goals of massive wealth accumulation in the hands a relative small number of people. They still own this wealth for the most part. There are some important distinctions to be made. White working class people to some extent were able to profit from colonialism indirectly most notably in the 60s and 70s. So for example, I, as w/class kid was able to go to University and got my fees paid and ended up being a teacher and buy a decent house etc. These were still relatively few because of the low levels of aspiration in that class built on generations of virtual enslavement. I still cant forget the graphic images of my grandad returning exhausted everyday from 12 hour shifts from the pits he worked in all his life and dying from lung disease just 4 days after he retired. He was worked like a horse. When low wage black workers were needed in this country the establishment called on them. When the economy started going pear shaped the establishment (expressed through our media predominantly) managed to persuade those at the bottom rungs that it was someone else at the bottom rungs fault. This was easy to exploit because of the huge insecurities in these communities based on economic fragility. I.e Fear!!!...don't underestimate Fear! To me a huge problem in this country has always been deference towards the establishment. The Establishment (these are the wealth owners lets not forget ) have even reinvented the term Establishment to kid people into thinking this a negative term for those who want to change anything and equate them with negative labels like Political Correctness, liberals, virtue signalling. Divide and Conquer defines our social, political, cultural and economic experience in this country. Yes there is more awareness of this than ever before, yes there have been positive steps made, but there is a long, long way to go imho. Spot on is that.....
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Post by Little Gary Patel on Jun 17, 2020 9:23:39 GMT
any link to these stats? higher murder rate than Juarez? I wouldn't usually waste my time but you appeared to be very concerned about libel laws & facts on the oatcake London wouldn't be anywhere remotely near the like of Cape Town or Caracas either. Just Daily Mail tripe. Oh I know, it just seemed odd he was making up his own facts when he is so on the ball with facts & libel when he's being called a racist
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 17, 2020 9:31:42 GMT
The common response is that the issues are "extremely complexed" (they absolutely are). But take the conversation on to the next level about how we achieve true equality by radically changing our political system and people's eyes glaze over. That's the crux of it. Oxbridge graduates are running our banks and institutions, dominating our politics, our MSM and clinging on to neo-liberalism because it helps them get richer and more powerful. They don't give a shit which party takes power, as long as some form of the status quo remains. And in the meantime we all hold up a BLM# banner and have polite conversations about "how this shouldn't be happening in the 21st century" And working class communities up and down the country are duped into believing that the black Somalian immigrant that delivers pizzas, or the Bangladeshi taxi driver are their enemy, when they have much more in common with them than they ever will have with Jacob Rhys Mogg. And if we ever get to that position where kids from deprived areas are able to go to a good school irrespective of their circumstances, where hard work pays for all, and where communities pitted against each other can all earn a decent living wage for their labour, watch racism disappear within a couple of generations. End the politics of divide and conquer, stop buying newspapers and paying for news from toxic organisations and the problem goes a long way to being solved...... This is absolutely the crux for me. (excellent post btw) The fact is the white working class (or under class) and the BAME under class communities are the two groups of people who have the most in common in our society. They should be working together because they are under fire from the same elite. 400 years of unabated colonialism was engineered by an establishment class in our society that still largely dictates the way our society works today. On all levels both social, economic and culturally. That mode of capitalism and its perpetrators enslaved large numbers of black people abroad and large numbers of white people at home, i.e our working classes (our grandparents and so on) This whole countries wealth was based on colonial exploitation over centuries and main sufferers were black people. though everyone was really working for a exploitative capitalist system that was prepared to go to great and violent lengths to achieve its goals of massive wealth accumulation in the hands a relative small number of people. They still own this wealth for the most part. There are some important distinctions to be made. White working class people to some extent were able to profit from colonialism indirectly most notably in the 60s and 70s. So for example, I, as w/class kid was able to go to University and got my fees paid and ended up being a teacher and buy a decent house etc. These were still relatively few because of the low levels of aspiration in that class built on generations of virtual enslavement. I still cant forget the graphic images of my grandad returning exhausted everyday from 12 hour shifts from the pits he worked in all his life and dying from lung disease just 4 days after he retired. He was worked like a horse. When low wage black workers were needed in this country the establishment called on them. When the economy started going pear shaped the establishment (expressed through our media predominantly) managed to persuade those at the bottom rungs that it was someone else at the bottom rungs fault. This was easy to exploit because of the huge insecurities in these communities based on economic fragility. I.e Fear!!!...don't underestimate Fear! To me a huge problem in this country has always been deference towards the establishment. The Establishment (these are the wealth owners lets not forget ) have even reinvented the term Establishment to kid people into thinking this a negative term for those who want to change anything and equate them with negative labels like Political Correctness, liberals, virtue signalling. Divide and Conquer defines our social, political, cultural and economic experience in this country. Yes there is more awareness of this than ever before, yes there have been positive steps made, but there is a long, long way to go imho. Some very good points particularly around the very wealthy and the others however the whole situations a very grey area. I guess a lot depends on what you class as underclass and where middle class starts. For me I class underclass “not” as people who work their boots off for a low wage or those who are unable to work due to health reasons. For me it’s those that are unwilling to work not because the can’t but because they don’t want to and then proceed to claim up to 2000 pounds a month and a free house and give nothing back to society. instead choosing to commit Crime and anti social behaviour where they live and cause misery to others.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Jun 17, 2020 9:59:45 GMT
This is absolutely the crux for me. (excellent post btw) The fact is the white working class (or under class) and the BAME under class communities are the two groups of people who have the most in common in our society. They should be working together because they are under fire from the same elite. 400 years of unabated colonialism was engineered by an establishment class in our society that still largely dictates the way our society works today. On all levels both social, economic and culturally. That mode of capitalism and its perpetrators enslaved large numbers of black people abroad and large numbers of white people at home, i.e our working classes (our grandparents and so on) This whole countries wealth was based on colonial exploitation over centuries and main sufferers were black people. though everyone was really working for a exploitative capitalist system that was prepared to go to great and violent lengths to achieve its goals of massive wealth accumulation in the hands a relative small number of people. They still own this wealth for the most part. There are some important distinctions to be made. White working class people to some extent were able to profit from colonialism indirectly most notably in the 60s and 70s. So for example, I, as w/class kid was able to go to University and got my fees paid and ended up being a teacher and buy a decent house etc. These were still relatively few because of the low levels of aspiration in that class built on generations of virtual enslavement. I still cant forget the graphic images of my grandad returning exhausted everyday from 12 hour shifts from the pits he worked in all his life and dying from lung disease just 4 days after he retired. He was worked like a horse. When low wage black workers were needed in this country the establishment called on them. When the economy started going pear shaped the establishment (expressed through our media predominantly) managed to persuade those at the bottom rungs that it was someone else at the bottom rungs fault. This was easy to exploit because of the huge insecurities in these communities based on economic fragility. I.e Fear!!!...don't underestimate Fear! To me a huge problem in this country has always been deference towards the establishment. The Establishment (these are the wealth owners lets not forget ) have even reinvented the term Establishment to kid people into thinking this a negative term for those who want to change anything and equate them with negative labels like Political Correctness, liberals, virtue signalling. Divide and Conquer defines our social, political, cultural and economic experience in this country. Yes there is more awareness of this than ever before, yes there have been positive steps made, but there is a long, long way to go imho. Some very good points particularly around the very wealthy and the others however the whole situations a very grey area. I guess a lot depends on what you class as underclass and where middle class starts. For me I class underclass “not” as people who work their boots off for a low wage or those who are unable to work due to health reasons. For me it’s those that are unwilling to work not because the can’t but because they don’t want to and then proceed to claim up to 2000 pounds a month and a free house and give nothing back to society. instead choosing to commit Crime and anti social behaviour where they live and cause misery to others. And I guess this is the point being driven at - the people at the very top want you to feel like this and focus your attention on those at the bottom so you don't look up at them.
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Post by elystokie on Jun 17, 2020 11:00:59 GMT
Some very good points particularly around the very wealthy and the others however the whole situations a very grey area. I guess a lot depends on what you class as underclass and where middle class starts. For me I class underclass “not” as people who work their boots off for a low wage or those who are unable to work due to health reasons. For me it’s those that are unwilling to work not because the can’t but because they don’t want to and then proceed to claim up to 2000 pounds a month and a free house and give nothing back to society. instead choosing to commit Crime and anti social behaviour where they live and cause misery to others. And I guess this is the point being driven at - the people at the very top want you to feel like this and focus your attention on those at the bottom so you don't look up at them. Exactly. Great post by spitthedog, keep the proles at each others throats and no matter how shit we are as a government we'll get a relatively easy ride, classic diversion tactic that's been working for years.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 17, 2020 11:21:08 GMT
The common response is that the issues are "extremely complexed" (they absolutely are). But take the conversation on to the next level about how we achieve true equality by radically changing our political system and people's eyes glaze over. That's the crux of it. Oxbridge graduates are running our banks and institutions, dominating our politics, our MSM and clinging on to neo-liberalism because it helps them get richer and more powerful. They don't give a shit which party takes power, as long as some form of the status quo remains. And in the meantime we all hold up a BLM# banner and have polite conversations about "how this shouldn't be happening in the 21st century" And working class communities up and down the country are duped into believing that the black Somalian immigrant that delivers pizzas, or the Bangladeshi taxi driver are their enemy, when they have much more in common with them than they ever will have with Jacob Rhys Mogg. And if we ever get to that position where kids from deprived areas are able to go to a good school irrespective of their circumstances, where hard work pays for all, and where communities pitted against each other can all earn a decent living wage for their labour, watch racism disappear within a couple of generations. End the politics of divide and conquer, stop buying newspapers and paying for news from toxic organisations and the problem goes a long way to being solved...... They still own this wealth for the most part.
You make some good points but I still don't think you're addressing the issue that Price's law raises and is explained neatly in this clip.
The point about Monopoly is interesting because everyone starts out with the same money but if you play for long enough then the money always ends up in the hands of one person. This is applicable across any creative field.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 11:27:12 GMT
This is absolutely the crux for me. (excellent post btw) The fact is the white working class (or under class) and the BAME under class communities are the two groups of people who have the most in common in our society. They should be working together because they are under fire from the same elite. 400 years of unabated colonialism was engineered by an establishment class in our society that still largely dictates the way our society works today. On all levels both social, economic and culturally. That mode of capitalism and its perpetrators enslaved large numbers of black people abroad and large numbers of white people at home, i.e our working classes (our grandparents and so on) This whole countries wealth was based on colonial exploitation over centuries and main sufferers were black people. though everyone was really working for a exploitative capitalist system that was prepared to go to great and violent lengths to achieve its goals of massive wealth accumulation in the hands a relative small number of people. They still own this wealth for the most part. There are some important distinctions to be made. White working class people to some extent were able to profit from colonialism indirectly most notably in the 60s and 70s. So for example, I, as w/class kid was able to go to University and got my fees paid and ended up being a teacher and buy a decent house etc. These were still relatively few because of the low levels of aspiration in that class built on generations of virtual enslavement. I still cant forget the graphic images of my grandad returning exhausted everyday from 12 hour shifts from the pits he worked in all his life and dying from lung disease just 4 days after he retired. He was worked like a horse. When low wage black workers were needed in this country the establishment called on them. When the economy started going pear shaped the establishment (expressed through our media predominantly) managed to persuade those at the bottom rungs that it was someone else at the bottom rungs fault. This was easy to exploit because of the huge insecurities in these communities based on economic fragility. I.e Fear!!!...don't underestimate Fear! To me a huge problem in this country has always been deference towards the establishment. The Establishment (these are the wealth owners lets not forget ) have even reinvented the term Establishment to kid people into thinking this a negative term for those who want to change anything and equate them with negative labels like Political Correctness, liberals, virtue signalling. Divide and Conquer defines our social, political, cultural and economic experience in this country. Yes there is more awareness of this than ever before, yes there have been positive steps made, but there is a long, long way to go imho. Some very good points particularly around the very wealthy and the others however the whole situations a very grey area. I guess a lot depends on what you class as underclass and where middle class starts. For me I class underclass “not” as people who work their boots off for a low wage or those who are unable to work due to health reasons. For me it’s those that are unwilling to work not because the can’t but because they don’t want to and then proceed to claim up to 2000 pounds a month and a free house and give nothing back to societyinstead choosing to commit Crime and anti social behaviour where they live and cause misery to others. And whilst this is a problem it's an absolute drop in the ocean compared to the tax evasion and collaboration/corruption between politicians, lobby groups, businesses which maintains the status quo for those in power. But the MSM would have you believe that it's THE burning issue, divide and conquer......
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 11:34:22 GMT
They still own this wealth for the most part.
You make some good points but I still don't think you're addressing the issue that Price's law raises and is explained neatly in this clip.
The point about Monopoly is interesting because everyone starts out with the same money but if you play for long enough then the money always ends up in the hands of one person. This is applicable across any creative field.
The Monopoly analogy would work a lot better if it went into detail about the struggles certain sections of our society have to even get to the Monopoly board. If you don't even end up at the table, you don't have a chance of taking all the money......
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 17, 2020 11:55:30 GMT
You make some good points but I still don't think you're addressing the issue that Price's law raises and is explained neatly in this clip.
The point about Monopoly is interesting because everyone starts out with the same money but if you play for long enough then the money always ends up in the hands of one person. This is applicable across any creative field.
The Monopoly analogy would work a lot better if it went into detail about the struggles certain sections of our society have to even get to the Monopoly board. If you don't even end up at the table, you don't have a chance of taking all the money......
Not really because you still need to solve the problem somehow.
Even if everyone started with zero money and was then given the same amount money the monopoly analogy would still happen.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 12:05:04 GMT
The Monopoly analogy would work a lot better if it went into detail about the struggles certain sections of our society have to even get to the Monopoly board. If you don't even end up at the table, you don't have a chance of taking all the money......
Not really because you still need to solve the problem somehow.
Even if everyone started with zero money and was then given the same amount money the monopoly analogy would still happen.
In that case it's a fairly poor analogy as it has no bearing on reality.......
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 17, 2020 12:10:50 GMT
Not really because you still need to solve the problem somehow.
Even if everyone started with zero money and was then given the same amount money the monopoly analogy would still happen.
In that case it's a pretty poor analogy as it has absolutely no bearing on reality.....
Obviously it doesn't have a bearing on reality but that's not the point ....
There is inequality so how do you solve it?
A lot of people think that you tax the rich and redistrubute the wealth more evenly, except the monopoly analogy shows that even if you distributed the wealth to such an extreme extent that everyone had roughly the same, the majority of the money would still end up funneling its way back to a select few.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 12:23:41 GMT
In that case it's a pretty poor analogy as it has absolutely no bearing on reality.....
Obviously it doesn't have a bearing on reality but that's not the point ....
There is inequality so how do you solve it?
A lot of people think that you tax the rich and redistrubute the wealth more evenly, except the monopoly analogy shows that even if you distributed the wealth to such an extreme extent that everyone had roughly the same, the majority of the money would still end up funneling its way back to a select few.
Taxing the rich and redistributing wealth isn't the first stage of this, the first stage is to have a truly equal education system whereby anyone willing to work hard and make sacrifices gives themselves a chance of being whatever they want to be in life, irrespective of the circumstances they were born in to. At the moment wealth is distributed to a certain section of our society, equality of education and opportunity gives all races, classes a chance to earn a "piece of the pie" How we distribute that pie for the good of society is another long and complex argument......
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 17, 2020 12:33:08 GMT
Some very good points particularly around the very wealthy and the others however the whole situations a very grey area. I guess a lot depends on what you class as underclass and where middle class starts. For me I class underclass “not” as people who work their boots off for a low wage or those who are unable to work due to health reasons. For me it’s those that are unwilling to work not because the can’t but because they don’t want to and then proceed to claim up to 2000 pounds a month and a free house and give nothing back to societyinstead choosing to commit Crime and anti social behaviour where they live and cause misery to others. And whilst this is a problem it's an absolute drop in the ocean compared to the tax evasion and collaboration/corruption between politicians, lobby groups, businesses which maintains the status quo for those in power. But the MSM would have you believe that it's THE burning issue, divide and conquer...... But If they do it and get away with it. What incentive is it giving people to work. The last thing we need as a country is to demotivate those people who work hard for not huge money when they have a mentality to work. It’s not all about money it’s about people wanting to better themselves. Eg someone who works 60 hours a week thinking they can live in a nicer area because they’ve earnt the right and not having to worry about having someone who scrounges moving next to them Because they’ve had it handed to them on a plate and making there life a misery by behaving in an anti social manner.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 17, 2020 12:35:36 GMT
Obviously it doesn't have a bearing on reality but that's not the point ....
There is inequality so how do you solve it?
A lot of people think that you tax the rich and redistrubute the wealth more evenly, except the monopoly analogy shows that even if you distributed the wealth to such an extreme extent that everyone had roughly the same, the majority of the money would still end up funneling its way back to a select few.
Taxing the rich and redistributing wealth isn't the first stage of this, the first stage is to have a truly equal education system whereby anyone willing to work hard and make sacrifices gives themselves a chance of being whatever they want to be in life, irrespective of the circumstances they were born in to. At the moment wealth is distributed to a certain section of our society, equality of education and opportunity gives all races, classes a chance to earn a "piece of the pie" How we distribute that pie is another long and complexed argument......
The "piece of the pie analogy" doesn't work because it's not like there's a finite amount of pie to share anyway. We're not in a zero sum game.
The truly equal education system is a nice idea but I don't think it's achievable because there are so many variables. You're not going to be able to get past your first stage ...
Everyone can have the exact same level of education but that doesn't mean they will have the same level ability. Even if everyone had the same level of ability then there will still be differences in terms of how they apply themselves. This is a difficult enough problem to solve without factoring in other external influences such as growing up in an abusive home etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 12:37:58 GMT
Taxing the rich and redistributing wealth isn't the first stage of this, the first stage is to have a truly equal education system whereby anyone willing to work hard and make sacrifices gives themselves a chance of being whatever they want to be in life, irrespective of the circumstances they were born in to. At the moment wealth is distributed to a certain section of our society, equality of education and opportunity gives all races, classes a chance to earn a "piece of the pie" How we distribute that pie is another long and complexed argument......
The "piece of the pie analogy" doesn't work because it's not like there's a finite amount of pie to share anyway. We're not in a zero sum game.
The truly equal education system is a nice idea but I don't think it's achievable because there are so many variables. You're not going to be able to get past your first stage ...
Everyone can have the exact same level of education but that doesn't mean they will have the same level ability. Even if everyone had the same level of ability then there will still be differences in terms of how they apply themselves. This is a difficult enough problem to solve without factoring in other external influences such as growing up in an abusive home etc.
So essentially what you're saying is it's all too difficult. That's what it sounds like to me......
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 17, 2020 12:43:42 GMT
The "piece of the pie analogy" doesn't work because it's not like there's a finite amount of pie to share anyway. We're not in a zero sum game.
The truly equal education system is a nice idea but I don't think it's achievable because there are so many variables. You're not going to be able to get past your first stage ...
Everyone can have the exact same level of education but that doesn't mean they will have the same level ability. Even if everyone had the same level of ability then there will still be differences in terms of how they apply themselves. This is a difficult enough problem to solve without factoring in other external influences such as growing up in an abusive home etc.
So essentially what you're saying is it's all too difficult. That's what it sounds like to me......
I'm saying that the solution you're proposing doesn't solve the problem and that no-one has figured it out as of yet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 12:54:00 GMT
So essentially what you're saying is it's all too difficult. That's what it sounds like to me......
I'm saying that the solution you're proposing doesn't solve the problem and that no-one has figured it out as of yet.
And I'm saying that not being able to solve every single issue shouldn't stop you from aiming for it. The Nordic education system is one that would certainly solve some of the issues, particularly if you were radical in bringing private schools into the public domain for example. What are your suggestions then, instead of pointing out issues let's hear a few potential solutions?
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 17, 2020 13:06:54 GMT
I'm saying that the solution you're proposing doesn't solve the problem and that no-one has figured it out as of yet.
And I'm saying that not being able to solve every single issue shouldn't stop you from aiming for it. The Nordic education system is one that would certainly solve some of the issues, particularly if you were radical in bringing private schools into the public domain for example. What are your suggestions then, instead of pointing out issues let's hear a few potential solutions? I don’t know really .... Let’s continue with your proposal, let’s say we somehow manage to get everyone the same standard of education, we know that there will be still be varying outcomes due to the issues I’ve previously mentioned. What’s your next step?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 13:17:32 GMT
And I'm saying that not being able to solve every single issue shouldn't stop you from aiming for it. The Nordic education system is one that would certainly solve some of the issues, particularly if you were radical in bringing private schools into the public domain for example. What are your suggestions then, instead of pointing out issues let's hear a few potential solutions? I don’t know really .... Let’s continue with your proposal, let’s say we somehow manage to get everyone the same standard of education, we know that there will be still be varying outcomes due to the issues I’ve previously mentioned. What’s your next step? Varying outcomes based on ability and not on other factors such as race and class though, therein lies the difference. One piece of a very large jigsaw.......
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 17, 2020 13:26:24 GMT
I don’t know really .... Let’s continue with your proposal, let’s say we somehow manage to get everyone the same standard of education, we know that there will be still be varying outcomes due to the issues I’ve previously mentioned. What’s your next step? Varying outcomes based on ability and not on other factors such as race and class though, therein lies the difference. One piece of a very large jigsaw....... How do you think race currently plays a factor in education at the moment? Class is a difficult one to solve in terms of education, as you’ve suggested you could bring private schools into the public domain but then you’d still get things like private tutoring anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 13:48:11 GMT
Varying outcomes based on ability and not on other factors such as race and class though, therein lies the difference. One piece of a very large jigsaw....... How do you think race currently plays a factor in education at the moment? Class is a difficult one to solve in terms of education, as you’ve suggested you could bring private schools into the public domain but then you’d still get things like private tutoring anyway. Because race and class are massively intertwined. Tackle inequality, tackle the politics of divide and conquer, don't spend money on any toxic media outlets and allow them to disappear into oblivion, join a union and stand alongside your Somali immigrant colleague and not against him. Huge huge change is required, the appetite for it is clearly not there as the last election result proved. But one things for sure, holding up a BLM# banner won't change anything major......
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 17, 2020 14:17:34 GMT
How do you think race currently plays a factor in education at the moment? Class is a difficult one to solve in terms of education, as you’ve suggested you could bring private schools into the public domain but then you’d still get things like private tutoring anyway. Because race and class are massively intertwined. Tackle inequality, tackle the politics of divide and conquer, don't spend money on any toxic media outlets and allow them to disappear into oblivion, join a union and stand alongside your Somali immigrant colleague and not against him. Huge huge change is required, the appetite for it is clearly not there as the last election result proved. But one things for sure, holding up a BLM# banner won't change anything major...... Your proposals should lead to a more cohesive society anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 14:21:45 GMT
Because race and class are massively intertwined. Tackle inequality, tackle the politics of divide and conquer, don't spend money on any toxic media outlets and allow them to disappear into oblivion, join a union and stand alongside your Somali immigrant colleague and not against him. Huge huge change is required, the appetite for it is clearly not there as the last election result proved. But one things for sure, holding up a BLM# banner won't change anything major...... Your proposals should lead to a more cohesive society anyway. And a cohesive society leads to less racism. Because often racism isn't ideological, it comes from ignorance and a lack of education. Take away the need to blame the Somali immigrant for your troubles, take away the racism that's actually just ignorance. And take away the vehicle for driving that ignorance (The Murdoch and Rothermere press) and we're laughing.....
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Post by maine on Jun 17, 2020 19:14:02 GMT
To my horror by mistake I 'liked' the text from the originator of the 'Racism' thread. As it was locked I couldn't correct it. To make clear I meant to 'Dislike' the thread, indeed 'strongly dislike it'.
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