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Post by wuzza on Aug 23, 2019 10:17:49 GMT
Our defensive set up is a shambles regardless of Jacks poor form. Mind you maybe that’s the CEOs fault too.
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Post by Davef on Aug 23, 2019 10:30:06 GMT
A manager will always take the plaudits when his team wins trophies and promotions. Why is a manager suddenly not to blame when his team can't string two results together?
We've played four league games this season and not one team I've seen is as dis-organised as we are. That's entirely down to the manager, and if you don't think so then you haven't been paying attention to what's being going on at Stoke over the past decade or so.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 23, 2019 10:46:22 GMT
I cant argue against either of you but rather than Jones taking the full brunt of the dismal last 4 years, I'd like to see the venom going in the right direction...namely the players and a CEO who is on holiday during the transfer window. Sacking Jones at this point simply sets us back even further. What players! The bad ones have all gone! Maybe we should start supporting our players when the managers hanging them out to dry in a system they aren't suited to? Allen and Butland are having absolute mares but anyone that questions their professional or effort is barking mad. I think you can absolutely question Joe Allen's effort. Did you see his lack of determination for their 1st goal on Wednesday? I think the same can be levelled at ince, clucas and batth who has gone from putting his body into blocks to doing the polar opposite.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 10:49:43 GMT
Nowt like burying your head in the sand There's enough quality in that squad for a half decent manager to adapt a system that suits them and would get results I think our players have shown time and time (and time) again that that's simply not the case.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 23, 2019 10:50:03 GMT
Yes, but surely what happened in between was some of our best football for a very long time. True in reality the results haven't improved, but there was a lot of promise in those performances with all the shooting chances created. In few inches difference in some shots that hit the bar or were blocked by defenders and we could be comfortably sitting mid-table despite the results against QPR and Preston. For some reason our players are error strewn, letting in goals and missing sitters including a penalty, and it's hard for any many to correct that. Having said that the performance against Preston was as bad as anything we have experienced in recent years and I can only put it down to players losing heart with Jack's errors and not keeping focused on basics like marking, passing and shooting. Jacks errors only occurred because of the appalling state of events that led to the shots at goal, to blame him is quite sad tbh mate ...he was probably 40% to blame for those goals I’m not saying sack jones but I can see why people are losing it ....it’s an ongoing shambles that’s now 3 years down the line One or two good performances aren’t enough to justify sticking with managers ...consistent ones are The fans have had enough and sadly it’s Jones in the firing line I can’t have that mate, they’ve gone right through him. Being open is one thing but a Conference level keeper should be stopping them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 10:50:11 GMT
What players! The bad ones have all gone! Maybe we should start supporting our players when the managers hanging them out to dry in a system they aren't suited to? Allen and Butland are having absolute mares but anyone that questions their professional or effort is barking mad. I think you can absolutely question Joe Allen's effort. Did you see his lack of determination for their 1st goal on Wednesday? I think the same can be levelled at ince, clucas and batth who has gone from putting his body into blocks to doing the polar opposite. I've Preston was the exception. I've not seen these players not trying generally. Danny Batth is an old school slow defender being asked to play out from the back and play a high line. He's closer to the half way line most of the time than the goal. He's not suddenly gone to shit. There's a reason they all look shit in that system. With Clucas and Ince you know what you're getting so why is playing them? Especially Ince when he's bought two other No.10s. Sam Clucas is Sam fucking Clucas and should have been replaced. You don't get to bring in 11 players then just start blaming the players.
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Post by werrington on Aug 23, 2019 10:51:48 GMT
Jacks errors only occurred because of the appalling state of events that led to the shots at goal, to blame him is quite sad tbh mate ...he was probably 40% to blame for those goals I’m not saying sack jones but I can see why people are losing it ....it’s an ongoing shambles that’s now 3 years down the line One or two good performances aren’t enough to justify sticking with managers ...consistent ones are The fans have had enough and sadly it’s Jones in the firing line I can’t have that mate, they’ve gone right through him. Being open is one thing but a Conference level keeper should be stopping them. I’m not defending him mate, I’m just pointing out he’s not the only one culpable It’s disgraceful it got that far
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Post by werrington on Aug 23, 2019 10:52:35 GMT
Nowt like burying your head in the sand There's enough quality in that squad for a half decent manager to adapt a system that suits them and would get results I think our players have shown time and time (and time) again that that's simply not the case. These players yes....he’s bought his own and barely using them
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 23, 2019 10:53:08 GMT
I think you can absolutely question Joe Allen's effort. Did you see his lack of determination for their 1st goal on Wednesday? I think the same can be levelled at ince, clucas and batth who has gone from putting his body into blocks to doing the polar opposite. I've Preston was the exception. I've not seen these players not trying generally. Danny Batth is an old school slow defender being asked to play out from the back and play a high line. He's closer to the half way line most of the time than the goal. He's not suddenly gone to shit. There's a reason they all look shit in that system. With Clucas and Ince you know what you're getting so why is playing them? Especially Ince when he's bought two other No.10s. Sam Clucas is Sam fucking Clucas and should have been replaced. You don't get to bring in 11 players then just start blaming the players. Batth hasn't suddenly gone to shit, I agree. He is simply shit. He was when he arrived and he is now. Hes a lousy footballer and a poor defender. His only quality is now something hes seemingly loathe to do. Allen, ince and batth...I wouldn't entertain any of them again. I cant watch Allen anymore. I'm sick to my back teeth of him
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 10:57:19 GMT
I've Preston was the exception. I've not seen these players not trying generally. Danny Batth is an old school slow defender being asked to play out from the back and play a high line. He's closer to the half way line most of the time than the goal. He's not suddenly gone to shit. There's a reason they all look shit in that system. With Clucas and Ince you know what you're getting so why is playing them? Especially Ince when he's bought two other No.10s. Sam Clucas is Sam fucking Clucas and should have been replaced. You don't get to bring in 11 players then just start blaming the players. Batth hasn't suddenly gone to shit, I agree. He is simply shit. He was when he arrived and he is now. Hes a lousy footballer and a poor defender. His only quality is now something hes seemingly loathe to do. Allen, ince and batth...I wouldn't entertain any of them again. I cant watch Allen anymore. I'm sick to my back teeth of him Then why is the manager playing him when we have two CBs that aren't playing and BMI in the bomb squad? Why is he playing Ince when he has Duffy, Powell and Verlinden. Why would anyone have thought that asking Joe Allen to play a very specific role in that diamond midfield was a good idea and would end well. We all know Joe isn't that midfielder. This is what I mean. Why blame all the players when its the manager sending them out to be slaughtered. Batth is not as bad a defender if he is only asked to do the basics and his role requires him to stay in position and no venture forwards. Allen works best in a flat midfield. Ince is a winger. None of it makes sense. They aren't great but they aren't as bad as they are in this system. It brings out the worst in them all.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 23, 2019 10:58:13 GMT
I can’t have that mate, they’ve gone right through him. Being open is one thing but a Conference level keeper should be stopping them. I’m not defending him mate, I’m just pointing out he’s not the only one culpable It’s disgraceful it got that far I’m still not convinced that’s down to the system mate. Yes they have a lot of freedom down the flank for the first but there’s still plenty of time for Allen and Jack to deal with it. Second goal is just a straightforward boot down the middle that Batth then Jack should deal with easily. Third, Etebo passes it straight to one of theirs. Derby too, came from switching off at the kickoff for the first and Lindsay and then Smith overcommitting unnecessarily for the second. QPR’s first is on Jack going walkabout and do Charlton score those last two goals so easily if he doesn’t take his DM off? I’m not saying Jones isn’t to blame - it’s up to him to organise them better and no team should be making so many mistakes - but I’m not convinced it’s the system.
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Post by Roy Cropper on Aug 23, 2019 10:58:13 GMT
If we sack the manager now then we really could get ourselves into a relegation battle. Jones isn't the issue here.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 23, 2019 10:59:01 GMT
Batth hasn't suddenly gone to shit, I agree. He is simply shit. He was when he arrived and he is now. Hes a lousy footballer and a poor defender. His only quality is now something hes seemingly loathe to do. Allen, ince and batth...I wouldn't entertain any of them again. I cant watch Allen anymore. I'm sick to my back teeth of him Then why is the manager playing him when we have two CBs that aren't playing and BMI in the bomb squad? Why is he playing Ince when he has Duffy, Powell and Verlinden. Why would anyone have thought that asking Joe Allen to play a very specific role in that diamond midfield was a good idea and would end well. We all know Joe isn't that midfielder. This is what I mean. Why blame all the players when its the manager sending them out to be slaughtered. Batth is not as bad a defender if he is only asked to do the basics and his role requires him to stay in position and no venture forwards. Allen works best in a flat midfield. Ince is a winger. None of it makes sense. They aren't great but they aren't as bad as they are in this system. It brings out the worst in them all. Has Ince been that bad? He’s played well in every game before Preston this season?
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Post by werrington on Aug 23, 2019 11:01:41 GMT
Then why is the manager playing him when we have two CBs that aren't playing and BMI in the bomb squad? Why is he playing Ince when he has Duffy, Powell and Verlinden. Why would anyone have thought that asking Joe Allen to play a very specific role in that diamond midfield was a good idea and would end well. We all know Joe isn't that midfielder. This is what I mean. Why blame all the players when its the manager sending them out to be slaughtered. Batth is not as bad a defender if he is only asked to do the basics and his role requires him to stay in position and no venture forwards. Allen works best in a flat midfield. Ince is a winger. None of it makes sense. They aren't great but they aren't as bad as they are in this system. It brings out the worst in them all. Has Ince been that bad? He’s played well in every game before Preston this season? Ince Clucas and Maclean are the same easy lazy targets mate
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 11:01:54 GMT
Then why is the manager playing him when we have two CBs that aren't playing and BMI in the bomb squad? Why is he playing Ince when he has Duffy, Powell and Verlinden. Why would anyone have thought that asking Joe Allen to play a very specific role in that diamond midfield was a good idea and would end well. We all know Joe isn't that midfielder. This is what I mean. Why blame all the players when its the manager sending them out to be slaughtered. Batth is not as bad a defender if he is only asked to do the basics and his role requires him to stay in position and no venture forwards. Allen works best in a flat midfield. Ince is a winger. None of it makes sense. They aren't great but they aren't as bad as they are in this system. It brings out the worst in them all. Has Ince been that bad? He’s played well in every game before Preston this season? No not at all. But I question why he's bought Duffy and Powell only to play Ince as a No.10. I've banged on about this all morning so I don't want to get into it any but for me having a system that only allows one of Duffy, Powell or Ince to play is madness. My concerns with him at No.10 is he can drift in and out and I think he's quite selfish and one footed so its not the best candidate for your only creative outlet on the pitch but he's been playing well this season for sure so don't take that as an attack on him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 11:02:19 GMT
Has Ince been that bad? He’s played well in every game before Preston this season? Ince Clucas and Maclean are the same easy lazy targets mate I am actually trying to defend our players here!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 11:10:31 GMT
I think our players have shown time and time (and time) again that that's simply not the case. These players yes....he’s bought his own and barely using them Indeed. I was challenging the oft-repeated assertion that we have this cracking squad that, if only we had a manager that knew what they were doing, would somehow transform them into contenders. Fans say it, commentators say it, the club says it; all despite the increasing evidence to the contrary. Jones is in absolutely no way blameless in our current debacle but I also don't see how he can legislate for players putting in a cracking shift and a decent performance one game, and then look a complete abortion just 4 days later. People keep banging on about the diamond but we've played 433, 4231, 352, a flat 442 and everything in between over the last 12 months and they've consistently shown themselves to be ill-equipped to take control and put a run of performances together. I just don't see how sacking the manager will help, not one jot.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 23, 2019 11:19:46 GMT
Has Ince been that bad? He’s played well in every game before Preston this season? No not at all. But I question why he's bought Duffy and Powell only to play Ince as a No.10. I've banged on about this all morning so I don't want to get into it any but for me having a system that only allows one of Duffy, Powell or Ince to play is madness. My concerns with him at No.10 is he can drift in and out and I think he's quite selfish and one footed so its not the best candidate for your only creative outlet on the pitch but he's been playing well this season for sure so don't take that as an attack on him. To be fair ‘why is he playing Ince’ does seem like a bit of an attack on him? Presumably he signed Powell as competition for Ince and Duffy when Powell got injured. Take the point about only playing one of them, but creating chances hasn’t really been the issue this season has it?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 23, 2019 11:23:20 GMT
Batth hasn't suddenly gone to shit, I agree. He is simply shit. He was when he arrived and he is now. Hes a lousy footballer and a poor defender. His only quality is now something hes seemingly loathe to do. Allen, ince and batth...I wouldn't entertain any of them again. I cant watch Allen anymore. I'm sick to my back teeth of him Then why is the manager playing him when we have two CBs that aren't playing and BMI in the bomb squad? Why is he playing Ince when he has Duffy, Powell and Verlinden. Why would anyone have thought that asking Joe Allen to play a very specific role in that diamond midfield was a good idea and would end well. We all know Joe isn't that midfielder. This is what I mean. Why blame all the players when its the manager sending them out to be slaughtered. Batth is not as bad a defender if he is only asked to do the basics and his role requires him to stay in position and no venture forwards. Allen works best in a flat midfield. Ince is a winger. None of it makes sense. They aren't great but they aren't as bad as they are in this system. It brings out the worst in them all. Allen has been played in every type of midfield combination and system since hes been here. He doesn't function in any of them
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 11:24:57 GMT
No not at all. But I question why he's bought Duffy and Powell only to play Ince as a No.10. I've banged on about this all morning so I don't want to get into it any but for me having a system that only allows one of Duffy, Powell or Ince to play is madness. My concerns with him at No.10 is he can drift in and out and I think he's quite selfish and one footed so its not the best candidate for your only creative outlet on the pitch but he's been playing well this season for sure so don't take that as an attack on him. To be fair ‘why is he playing Ince’ does seem like a bit of an attack on him? Presumably he signed Powell as competition for Ince and Duffy when Powell got injured. Take the point about only playing one of them, but creating chances hasn’t really been the issue this season has it? It did - in the context of the whole debate I was having though it really wasn't meant that way. No it hasn't but at Preston I did feel like every time he thought he could have a shot he did even when, especially in one particular instance Hogan was free, there was another player in a better position and the pass might have been the better option. Being the only creative outlet is a huge pressure on anyone - I just don't get why we can only have one of them. It seems a waste of the talent we have available to play a system that prevents us from playing it.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 23, 2019 11:27:24 GMT
To be fair ‘why is he playing Ince’ does seem like a bit of an attack on him? Presumably he signed Powell as competition for Ince and Duffy when Powell got injured. Take the point about only playing one of them, but creating chances hasn’t really been the issue this season has it? It did - in the context of the whole debate I was having though it really wasn't meant that way. No it hasn't but at Preston I did feel like every time he thought he could have a shot he did even when, especially in one particular instance Hogan was free, there was another player in a better position and the pass might have been the better option. Being the only creative outlet is a huge pressure on anyone - I just don't get why we can only have one of them. It seems a waste of the talent we have available to play a system that prevents us from playing it. If we’re creating plenty of chances as is though is there really a problem? It only becomes an issue if we’re not?
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Post by nott1 on Aug 23, 2019 11:30:33 GMT
To be fair ‘why is he playing Ince’ does seem like a bit of an attack on him? Presumably he signed Powell as competition for Ince and Duffy when Powell got injured. Take the point about only playing one of them, but creating chances hasn’t really been the issue this season has it? It did - in the context of the whole debate I was having though it really wasn't meant that way. No it hasn't but at Preston I did feel like every time he thought he could have a shot he did even when, especially in one particular instance Hogan was free, there was another player in a better position and the pass might have been the better option. Being the only creative outlet is a huge pressure on anyone - I just don't get why we can only have one of them. It seems a waste of the talent we have available to play a system that prevents us from playing it. We had another one but he was bombed out by Windbag!
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Post by werrington on Aug 23, 2019 11:34:00 GMT
Ince Clucas and Maclean are the same easy lazy targets mate I am actually trying to defend our players here! I was talking generally mate
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 11:44:32 GMT
It did - in the context of the whole debate I was having though it really wasn't meant that way. No it hasn't but at Preston I did feel like every time he thought he could have a shot he did even when, especially in one particular instance Hogan was free, there was another player in a better position and the pass might have been the better option. Being the only creative outlet is a huge pressure on anyone - I just don't get why we can only have one of them. It seems a waste of the talent we have available to play a system that prevents us from playing it. If we’re creating plenty of chances as is though is there really a problem? It only becomes an issue if we’re not? We did against Charlton and QPR who are quite poor teams. Derby was ok but they don't seem quality changes. We don't have that killer pass that breaks a team down. The goals we have scored have been from set pieces and punts from Butland. We had some horror misses but there's a lot that have amounted to nothing because they've got everyone back and packed the box.
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 23, 2019 11:48:13 GMT
If we sack the manager now then we really could get ourselves into a relegation battle. Jones isn't the issue here. If you haven't noticed we have won 3 League games out of 23 with Jones in charge, if we carry on in the same manner we will be relegated without a whimper without any battle. Jones the manager these are his players who is the issue ?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 23, 2019 11:52:01 GMT
If we’re creating plenty of chances as is though is there really a problem? It only becomes an issue if we’re not? We did against Charlton and QPR who are quite poor teams. Derby was ok but they don't seem quality changes. We don't have that killer pass that breaks a team down. The goals we have scored have been from set pieces and punts from Butland. We had some horror misses but there's a lot that have amounted to nothing because they've got everyone back and packed the box. How don’t they seem quality chances, we scored twice and hit the woodwork twice? We’ve created from open play, from set pieces and from a ‘punt’ (actually an excellent piece of quick thinking from Butland, who knew exactly what he was doing). I fail to see how having a range of different ways of creating chances is a bad thing, especially in the context of having created sod all for about three years? It’s all a bit Let Them Eat Cake. The real problems are at the other end. I think I’m right in saying we haven’t conceded fewer than two in any one game in which we’ve played the 442 diamond? Again, I think they’re mainly down to human error but it’s still not good enough and still up to Jones to sort out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 11:57:14 GMT
We did against Charlton and QPR who are quite poor teams. Derby was ok but they don't seem quality changes. We don't have that killer pass that breaks a team down. The goals we have scored have been from set pieces and punts from Butland. We had some horror misses but there's a lot that have amounted to nothing because they've got everyone back and packed the box. How don’t they seem quality chances, we scored twice and hit the woodwork twice? We’ve created from open play, from set pieces and from a ‘punt’ (actually an excellent piece of quick thinking from Butland, who knew exactly what he was doing). I fail to see how having a range of different ways of creating chances is a bad thing, especially in the context of having created sod all for about three years? It’s all a bit Let Them Eat Cake. The real problems are at the other end. I think I’m right in saying we haven’t conceded fewer than two in any one game in which we’ve played the 442 diamond? Again, I think they’re mainly down to human error but it’s still not good enough and still up to Jones to sort out. I think we've gone a bit off tangent but I wasn't really moaning about chances. It was that the players are being hung out to dry. We are creating a lot but as you say the problems are at the other end and its not helped by the fact that we have 8 players attacking and seemingly two trying to defend at the moment. Which can't be how its meant to be but it is.
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Post by sergeifaye on Aug 23, 2019 12:01:55 GMT
Listen,can we just get behind the bloke... If pro footballers cant adapt to a system or shape then thats on THEM. 4 Managers now these shithouse players have got the sack and still its not them its the gaffer!! We need to stick with and support jones... Fuck these charalatan chancers,make it known we are with the manager. They will have nowhwere to hide then,we cannot keep sacking managers because of toss players who dont want to be here!! Keep the faith,rant over. He's won 4 in 26. Are you seriously saying any other experienced manager would have a record the same as that? I'd back myself to do better than that.
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Post by stokeykez on Aug 23, 2019 12:08:15 GMT
Unless we are in big danger of relegation at Christmas we have to stick with Jones for the season. Regardless of the fact that I like him and the football he is trying to play we have no other option. It is now widely apparent that the playing side of the club at least is in a complete mess. Which aspiring manager or manager with a good reputation would risk his career at Stoke? We have already wrecked the reputation of Rowett, and sack Jones his too. We can't pay a Premiership wage. Much though I dread us offering the post to Pulis I suspect even he would not be interested. The best we can do is support the team and Jones and hope it turns for them. A hostile, negative crowd will only further damage our club's reputation. The one positive to the club's reputation at the moment is the patient, supportive and passionate crowd. On a side note if the rumours of us appointing the Brighton bloke to replace Cartwright are true that is another indication that Jones is here for the long run. Let's hope the new Brighton guy will bring Chris hughton with him. NJ is up to his nostrils in it, was a firm supporter of him but I really think k hes too stubborn to accept defeat. Its amazing how we cannot ever achieve a new manager bounce
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Post by nottsover60 on Aug 23, 2019 12:37:04 GMT
Unless we are in big danger of relegation at Christmas we have to stick with Jones for the season. Regardless of the fact that I like him and the football he is trying to play we have no other option. It is now widely apparent that the playing side of the club at least is in a complete mess. Which aspiring manager or manager with a good reputation would risk his career at Stoke? We have already wrecked the reputation of Rowett, and sack Jones his too. We can't pay a Premiership wage. Much though I dread us offering the post to Pulis I suspect even he would not be interested. The best we can do is support the team and Jones and hope it turns for them. A hostile, negative crowd will only further damage our club's reputation. The one positive to the club's reputation at the moment is the patient, supportive and passionate crowd. On a side note if the rumours of us appointing the Brighton bloke to replace Cartwright are true that is another indication that Jones is here for the long run. Rowett was given £50m and blew it. In no way did we wreck his reputation. That was all on him. Jones is the same, he's been backed, if he fails to walk the walk that is on him. Take your Stoke supporters glasses off and consider what opinion you would form if you were a manager with aspirations. Both Jones and Rowett had good reputations as lower league and in Rowett's case Championship managers. Yes Rowett spent money, Jones less so but that money has dried up now. Along with rumours, true or not that our chief exec. is difficult to work with and that you don't always get your first choice target. Whatever you think of them any manager who is any good will be looking at them, coupled with Hughes and Lambert and be thinking not for me. Do you want to end with another manager like Lambert who is just over the moon to be given any job? I notice that Rowett didn't leave Derby in a mess and Jones didn't leave Luton in a mess so yes both of them had good reputations before joining Stoke.
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