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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 30, 2019 20:34:07 GMT
Do you think the context was complimentary? It wasn’t racist but it was xenophobic, ignorant nonsense. So to be non racist you have to be complimentary ? bollocks To not be xenophobic you have to not tar all with the same brush. It isn't a difficult concept.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 30, 2019 20:46:03 GMT
1) If there's a vast spectrum of circumstances than it renders it pretty useless as a metric doesn't it? And again, he was doing well in League 1 as well as having done well in League 2. It's the complete picture yet one you're trying to wedge for reasons I'm not quite sure about. 2) For all your gimmick on here is to be Captain Data, football and the Championship in particular just don't conform to the rules you want them to. There are too many examples to the contrary for them to be swept under the carpet as mere 'outliers', and too many occasions where the teams with the biggest wage bills have failed miserably as well. Again, circumstances differ so much among the examples for it to be impossible to present a blanket formula. 3) You yourself have provided less evidence than me on the Villa front other than again making a lazy blanket assumption that being at a big club in any capacity somehow ingrains 'winning' into you. Terry being a top player at a top club doesn't automatically mean anything when it comes to coaching (as the presence of people like Di Canio in your little list of failures attests to). Terry isn't a 'mentor' to Smith - Smith has more experience of management than he does. If anyone's doing the learning, it's Terry. 4) Terry wasn't a coach at the time Abraham first went there. Terry spoke well of the club, no more, no less. That isn't the same thing as 'Terry's connections secured the Abraham loan'. 1. And how many times has your "complete package" of lower league experience - without higher level experience - got teams out of the Championship in the last X years? In other words, whatever you call NJ's package of experience, where is the evidence and argument that it offers any value to us in a promotion quest? 2. Ha! You have a tendancy to misinterpret or overstate the argument and argue against yourself, then criticse the person making the point you've constructed: So, to repeat, I've not said "rules" exist. I've noted patterns, or repeated cases of things that lead to clubs doing better, or worse, or succeeding or not, and suggested them as relevant indicators of our future. Correct me if Im wrong, but your point seems to be "its all too random to predict" and to dismiss any past patterns as offering any relevant clues for us going forward?. However, its patently untrue that football is so random, as the extremely strong wage-league position relationship attests. The extent teams fall outside that relationship is not particularly any more random in the Championship than the PL in reality - its just that some PL clubs have accumulated vast weath. So where's that view coming from?. www.open.edu/openlearn/money-management/management/business-studies/stefan-szymanski-on-the-business-football 3. I've noted some repeated instances in recent years, no more or less. Of course, on one highly pedantic level you are right that not everyone who rubs with a big club becomes great coach - but again that's not an argument I've made, but one you have. The point of what I thought we are trying to think about - as I understand it - is what attributes, experiences, knowledge, credentials, qualities etc etc of coaches/managers/management teams are behind the clubs that are getting to the top of the Championship? And does NJ have them? I've suggested coaching experience in elite environments is one (of undoubtedly a number of) helpful attributes and NJ hasn't got it. Another is that he is a long term Championship manager (like Warnock, Bruce) who show a capacity for learning - though both have also managed at higher levels. Another is that he has built a team over several years and managed its progresion (Howe and Wilder), which he therefore knows inside out; which NJ hasn't done either. (It simply begs the question of the relevance of his experience for the job in hand - which takes us back to point #1. What is NJ bringing that is of value to our specific challenge in hand?) Of course, as well as that, you'd need intellect, interpersonal skills, self-awareness etc. 4. What on earth are you talking about? Terry joined in July 17 and Abraham 13 months later. Simple point with Terry = he is senior figure with experience; knowledge and huge gravitas and with a clear connection to a desirable loan option at his previous club. That he offers his new club value in trying to secure him really isn't that controversial, surely? (Especially when said loan player later cited said senior player as a reason to stay at the club on loan when he could leave it, showing that he valued said senior player enough to influence his career choices?). And especially when we see the same happen with Lampard at Derby with several players. I'm not sure why you want me to provide any evidence, as every time I provide any you sweep it under the rug as an 'outlier' or find some other spurious reason why it doesn't count. The problem with your analysis is that you start with your ready-made conclusion and work backwards and stretch and strain to make the evidence fit it. I've already given you examples of lower league managers who've got teams out of the Championship and you've disparaged them because one took a while to build his team (which I don't see a problem with for Wilder or for Jones if he needs that here) and one you've decided is being babysat by a managerial novice like John Terry, who you've decided is of more value just because he was a successful player. Despite myriad examples of top players who've failed miserably as managers. I've never once said it's 'random'. Nothing happens for no reason. What I have said is wages and experience aren't always the golden tickets you're making them out to be. Your link doesn't work on my machine, but I don't see your man Stefan as any kind of soothsayer - many of his stats-driven hypotheses in Soccernomics were highly dubious. Finally, Terry left Aston Villa in the summer, before Abraham joined, and then rejoined as a coach when Smith was appointed. He wasn't actually there when they signed Abraham. Hence his 'connections' didn't 'secure the loan'.
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 30, 2019 21:01:45 GMT
1. And how many times has your "complete package" of lower league experience - without higher level experience - got teams out of the Championship in the last X years? In other words, whatever you call NJ's package of experience, where is the evidence and argument that it offers any value to us in a promotion quest? 2. Ha! You have a tendancy to misinterpret or overstate the argument and argue against yourself, then criticse the person making the point you've constructed: So, to repeat, I've not said "rules" exist. I've noted patterns, or repeated cases of things that lead to clubs doing better, or worse, or succeeding or not, and suggested them as relevant indicators of our future. Correct me if Im wrong, but your point seems to be "its all too random to predict" and to dismiss any past patterns as offering any relevant clues for us going forward?. However, its patently untrue that football is so random, as the extremely strong wage-league position relationship attests. The extent teams fall outside that relationship is not particularly any more random in the Championship than the PL in reality - its just that some PL clubs have accumulated vast weath. So where's that view coming from?. www.open.edu/openlearn/money-management/management/business-studies/stefan-szymanski-on-the-business-football 3. I've noted some repeated instances in recent years, no more or less. Of course, on one highly pedantic level you are right that not everyone who rubs with a big club becomes great coach - but again that's not an argument I've made, but one you have. The point of what I thought we are trying to think about - as I understand it - is what attributes, experiences, knowledge, credentials, qualities etc etc of coaches/managers/management teams are behind the clubs that are getting to the top of the Championship? And does NJ have them? I've suggested coaching experience in elite environments is one (of undoubtedly a number of) helpful attributes and NJ hasn't got it. Another is that he is a long term Championship manager (like Warnock, Bruce) who show a capacity for learning - though both have also managed at higher levels. Another is that he has built a team over several years and managed its progresion (Howe and Wilder), which he therefore knows inside out; which NJ hasn't done either. (It simply begs the question of the relevance of his experience for the job in hand - which takes us back to point #1. What is NJ bringing that is of value to our specific challenge in hand?) Of course, as well as that, you'd need intellect, interpersonal skills, self-awareness etc. 4. What on earth are you talking about? Terry joined in July 17 and Abraham 13 months later. Simple point with Terry = he is senior figure with experience; knowledge and huge gravitas and with a clear connection to a desirable loan option at his previous club. That he offers his new club value in trying to secure him really isn't that controversial, surely? (Especially when said loan player later cited said senior player as a reason to stay at the club on loan when he could leave it, showing that he valued said senior player enough to influence his career choices?). And especially when we see the same happen with Lampard at Derby with several players. I'm not sure why you want me to provide any evidence, as every time I provide any you sweep it under the rug as an 'outlier' or find some other spurious reason why it doesn't count. The problem with your analysis is that you start with your ready-made conclusion and work backwards and stretch and strain to make the evidence fit it. I've already given you examples of lower league managers who've got teams out of the Championship and you've disparaged them because one took a while to build his team (which I don't see a problem with for Wilder or for Jones if he needs that here) and one you've decided is being babysat by a managerial novice like John Terry, who you've decided is of more value just because he was a successful player. Despite myriad examples of top players who've failed miserably as managers. I've never once said it's 'random'. Nothing happens for no reason. What I have said is wages and experience aren't always the golden tickets you're making them out to be. Your link doesn't work on my machine, but I don't see your man Stefan as any kind of soothsayer - many of his stats-driven hypotheses in Soccernomics were highly dubious. Finally, Terry left Aston Villa in the summer, before Abraham joined, and then rejoined as a coach when Smith was appointed. He wasn't actually there when they signed Abraham. Hence his 'connections' didn't 'secure the loan'. No I haven't started with a ready made conclusion!. I had a look at what successful clubs were doing and tried (with what i thought was a little "limited" and humble success and nothing more!) to spot a few things in common. And you have rightly pointed out there is more to it - which i don't disagree with. But still think those things in common are interesting, telling even, without being conclusive. But, its true though that we could be looking at different time scales. If we go back to the start of this post, which set the context, it was talking about this coming season. I wasn't disparaging your suggestions - they show its possible. But then the wider sweep shows its relatively rare to translate lower league management success in the higher reaches of the championship. I do take your points about Terry and other players, of course I do - but really at Villa the experience of value i was pointing to was Pitarch as I was talking about people coming in having had coaching and leadership experience at those other clubs (and got sidetracked by Terry!) Don't want to fall out buddy, i enjoy our tit for tats and debates and hope they continue! Not sure if this works below? Its the link between wages and position 2003-12 and it is what it is.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Jun 30, 2019 22:01:05 GMT
They are only free transfers ( apart from Cousins) because they’ve run down their contract There’s free transfers and there’s free transfers ....the Bosman thing has been around since 1995 yet people still don’t grasp it Correct. It's incredible to think that pre Bosman, a club effectively owned a player and could refuse to part with him - even at the end of a contract - unless a fee was agreed. I cannot think of another sector where such staggering restraint of trade would have been legal. Another legacy of Jean-Marc Bosman is that a player's capital value (the tranfer fee) often dimishes as the end of the contract approaches. Nor do I recall where Butland is in his contract. I judge it unlikely, but not impossible, that he could in due course be a "free". Just imagine the meltdown and befuddlement on here if that transpired. I wish Bosman had never happened. I understand legally why it was inevitable. But handing all the power to the players is what's ultimately caused the huge wage inflation we've seen over the last 20 years and the influx of parasitic agents draining billions out of the game. If clubs still controlled players registrations you wouldn't be getting any of these Berahino style wasters and stupidly long contracts dished out just to protect a player's value and to convince them to sign for you. Parachute payments wouldn't be needed because you wouldn't have players on 4 or 5 year contracts, they'd be 1 or 2 years like they used to be.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jun 30, 2019 23:10:45 GMT
The more we’re written off the better as far as I’m concerned.
We’re Stoke. We’re never favorites. So when we are we don’t know what the fuck to do.
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Post by westgatelakes on Jul 2, 2019 11:23:06 GMT
They spent a fortune in getting promoted....we tried it last year and failed, you can’t continually throw money at it as that’s financial madness Fair play to wolves but they are a huge one off Wolves spent a fortune last summer, probably the most any promoted club has ever spent. Nope ! Fulham spent around £100m apparently.
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Post by lordb on Jul 2, 2019 11:23:36 GMT
Wolves spent a fortune last summer, probably the most any promoted club has ever spent. Nope ! Fulham spent around £100m apparently. that was after promotion
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Post by Davef on Jul 2, 2019 11:25:05 GMT
Wolves spent a fortune last summer, probably the most any promoted club has ever spent. Nope ! Fulham spent around £100m apparently. D'oh, forgot about them.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Jul 2, 2019 11:39:13 GMT
Building a solid " team " is key that will stick together and work for one another. Hopefully some of this summer's signings can improve that . Agree 100% about deadwood , how he manages such a large squad is going to be important . I also think we lack pace and wonder if just adding Powell will improve our lack of creativity enough .
I am hopeful we will be better than last season.
I think Leeds will be very strong again but at the minute see the league pretty open and even as ever so teams that can get on a run will have a chance including us.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jul 2, 2019 12:16:43 GMT
Wolves spent a fortune last summer, probably the most any promoted club has ever spent. Nope ! Fulham spent around £100m apparently. With next to no strategy though, I hasten to add.
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Post by werrington on Jul 2, 2019 12:34:45 GMT
Juventus have just signed 2 players on frees as they’ve run down their contracts at PSG and Arsenal
Sort of rams it home to those who don’t grasp the Bosman thing
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Post by Davef on Jul 2, 2019 12:43:41 GMT
Juventus have just signed 2 players on frees as they’ve run down their contracts at PSG and Arsenal Sort of rams it home to those who don’t grasp the Bosman thing There are also people who say that we should've kept N'zonzi and Begovic for the last year of their contracts. They'd have both signed for other clubs on free transfers as well.
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Post by jezzascfc on Jul 2, 2019 13:07:09 GMT
Free does not mean unwanted - Powell had up to 8 clubs interested in him. Gregory will have had a few, likewise Davies.
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