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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 10:13:37 GMT
My first cost saving would be the people who got us into this mess in the first place.
Even if you were able to get rid of those people - which I doubt very, very much will happen - getting competent replacements , capable of both finding adequate players and working their way out of the shit, aren't going to be "cost saving". And neither will be the sacking.
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Post by mrred on Apr 15, 2019 10:15:52 GMT
This is the thing that worries me with our fans. A great deal believe things will be different next season. The patience is fast running dry for a lot of people, arguably not without reason- the football is bad as it's ever been. It's going to take 2-3 windows before Jones gets the team he wants.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 10:21:17 GMT
We must go forward with youngsters and several loans. Nathan Jones is against the loan system. Recent statements (and team sheet) suggest he's less willing to plan around youngsters. Relying on them is anyway a very insecure method. You have to bring them in, bit by bit.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 10:22:16 GMT
This is the thing that worries me with our fans. A great deal believe things will be different next season. The patience is fast running dry for a lot of people, arguably not without reason- the football is bad as it's ever been. It's going to take 2-3 windows before Jones gets the team he wants. It might even take longer. 3-5 years!
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Post by mrred on Apr 15, 2019 10:27:41 GMT
This is the thing that worries me with our fans. A great deal believe things will be different next season. The patience is fast running dry for a lot of people, arguably not without reason- the football is bad as it's ever been. It's going to take 2-3 windows before Jones gets the team he wants. It might even take longer. 3-5 years! I wouldn't argue that. It's minumum of a 2 year building job. Just look how we've constantly come short this season. Even against (fucking) Rotherham, we look miles away from a League winning team, even a play off one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 10:29:05 GMT
Clucas, Ince and McClean are good championship players that just do not fit into the way Jones wants to play... These are the very players that have featured most under Jones. They are the players he's structured his team around, so Jones probably sees them as the perfect fit, the backbone of scfc for years to come. Moreover McClean did not want to join Forest in January, why would he do now?
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Post by knyperstokie on Apr 15, 2019 10:34:49 GMT
My first cost saving would be the people who got us into this mess in the first place.
Even if you were able to get rid of those people - which I doubt very, very much will happen - getting competent replacements , capable of both finding adequate players and working their way out of the shit, aren't going to be "cost saving". And neither will be the sacking.
Fom what I gather from here and elsewhere there are people at the club who have a say in which players are purchased. They are obviously not up to the job and should go. It is most unusual in any business to keep people like this. All clubs buy unsuitable players but we seem to specialize in this.
The cost saving would come from their salaries and avoiding purchasing poor players who we can't get rid of.
I'd get rid and give the manager a free hand. He couldn't do any worse.
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 15, 2019 10:41:54 GMT
Clucas, Ince and McClean are good championship players that just do not fit into the way Jones wants to play... These are the very players that have featured most under Jones. They are the players he's structured his team around, so Jones probably sees them as the perfect fit, the backbone of scfc for years to come. Moreover McClean did not want to join Forest in January, why would he do now? Don't think he ever had a decision to make, did he? MON never actually pressed ahead with the deal, did he? Lots of talk, but nothing materialised. If a bid would've been accepted, surely he would've been open to playing for MON, who he's clearly got a lot of time for. If we are going with the diamond (and you'd sill probably guess we are), it's hard to see much of a future at all for McClean. And based on the small sample of Ince in the No.10 role, that's probably not going to end well either. But he's another that Jones has really talked up, including the bizarre quotes in the programme on Saturday saying Ince was "in exceptional form recently so would be a big miss" He clearly likes McClean's attitude, and strangely he was the only one other than Butland that Jones offered any praise at the weekend "at least McClean worked hard..." But there's zero use for him in a diamond. I've stopped trying to work out where his belief in Clucas is coming from.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 10:47:01 GMT
Even if you were able to get rid of those people - which I doubt very, very much will happen - getting competent replacements , capable of both finding adequate players and working their way out of the shit, aren't going to be "cost saving". And neither will be the sacking.
Fom what I gather from here and elsewhere there are people at the club who have a say in which players are purchased. They are obviously not up to the job and should go. It is most unusual in any business to keep people like this. All clubs buy unsuitable players but we seem to specialize in this.
The cost saving would come from their salaries and avoiding purchasing poor players who we can't get rid of.
I'd get rid and give the manager a free hand. He couldn't do any worse.
How would you "get rid" of someone who's a board member just like that. And as I indicated getting a competent DOF is not cost saving.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 15, 2019 10:49:17 GMT
Even if you were able to get rid of those people - which I doubt very, very much will happen - getting competent replacements , capable of both finding adequate players and working their way out of the shit, aren't going to be "cost saving". And neither will be the sacking.
Fom what I gather from here and elsewhere there are people at the club who have a say in which players are purchased. They are obviously not up to the job and should go. It is most unusual in any business to keep people like this. All clubs buy unsuitable players but we seem to specialize in this.
The cost saving would come from their salaries and avoiding purchasing poor players who we can't get rid of.
I'd get rid and give the manager a free hand. He couldn't do any worse.
The manager pretty much does have a free hand. That’s been the problem, if anything.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 10:58:14 GMT
Don't think he ever had a decision to make, did he? MON never actually pressed ahead with the deal, did he? Lots of talk, but nothing materialised. If a bid would've been accepted, surely he would've been open to playing for MON, who he's clearly got a lot of time for. If we are going with the diamond (and you'd sill probably guess we are) We're possibly making a mistake assuming that Jones is only a diamond man. It's clear that there are very few, if any, players here who fit into that particular, fairly rigid set of a system. Subsequently, instead of trying to make players fit the system, he's adapted himself and plays the system that fits the players. Of course he will bring in Jonesic players in the summer, but if we can't sell, it could be as few as 2-3 new first team ready signings. Then maybe a couple of frees might come in as back up. But then he will still be stuck with a majority of current players who will never become diamonds. As for McClean he did cathegorically state that he was not willing to join Forest, even though Jones was willing to let him go. For some strange reason he rather likes it here.
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Post by questionable on Apr 15, 2019 11:03:15 GMT
Ahh the “Mythical Way to play” by the guru that is called Jones.
Come off it, he’s had what 3 months and mustered a measly 3 wins, a shed load of the most boring stagnant 0-0 bore draws, little, if any shots on goals and baffling team selections, substitutes etc etc.
Do you really think he’ll pick up a few lower league players and address the above, not a chance in my opinion and he’ll be gone by Xmas if not before and justly so
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Post by potterpaul on Apr 15, 2019 11:05:46 GMT
These are the very players that have featured most under Jones. They are the players he's structured his team around, so Jones probably sees them as the perfect fit, the backbone of scfc for years to come. Moreover McClean did not want to join Forest in January, why would he do now? Don't think he ever had a decision to make, did he? MON never actually pressed ahead with the deal, did he? Lots of talk, but nothing materialised. If a bid would've been accepted, surely he would've been open to playing for MON, who he's clearly got a lot of time for. If we are going with the diamond (and you'd sill probably guess we are), it's hard to see much of a future at all for McClean. And based on the small sample of Ince in the No.10 role, that's probably not going to end well either. But he's another that Jones has really talked up, including the bizarre quotes in the programme on Saturday saying Ince was "in exceptional form recently so would be a big miss" He clearly likes McClean's attitude, and strangely he was the only one other than Butland that Jones offered any praise at the weekend "at least McClean worked hard..." But there's zero use for him in a diamond. I've stopped trying to work out where his belief in Clucas is coming from. When you list the players not suited to the diamond, I think we should also include Verlinden, I just don't see how he slots in and I think he maybe the surprise player to leave this summer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 11:12:07 GMT
Ahh the “Mythical Way to play” by the guru that is called Jones. Come off it, he’s had what 3 months and mustered a measly 3 wins, a shed load of the most boring stagnant 0-0 bore draws, little, if any shots on goals and baffling team selections, substitutes etc etc. Do you really think he’ll pick up a few lower league players and address the above, not a chance in my opinion and he’ll be gone by Xmas if not before and justly so He's had 3 months with 2 of his own players. A team that has just been relegated and sacked its 3rd manager in a year. It will take a lot of time to turn around a club like that, especially if you only buy 2 players. Everyone digs out the players we have and then expects the manager to be able to get gold from them, it's getting unbearable now. If we sack him at Christmas we're fucking stupid.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 11:12:51 GMT
You couldn't get shot of some of these at a car boot sale! It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 11:22:09 GMT
Prestwich Potter. You seem well informed. How many players are we looking to offload?.. I'm not mate. But if you look at the facts our last recorded turnover was £136m which included £109m of TV money (80% of turnover), and our spend on wages was £94m (around 70% of turnover) We get £41m of parachute payments this season plus £7m from the EFL (the £7m will probably be offset by a drop in ticket/commercial revenue) Next season the parachute payment drops to £34m so if you said as a conservative estimate our turnover will be around £60m we've got to drop about £40m off our original Premier League wage bill just to keep our wage to turnover below 100%. And the season after that if we don't get promoted our turnover will probably be around £40m meaning another 30% drop in the overall wage bill. Massive massive task ahead, so in answer to your original question I think we'll look to offload as many high earners as we physically can. Even loaning high earners out and clawing back 50% of their wages from the loaning club will help, players such as Imbula, Berahino and Wimmer lets face it are going nowhere under their current contracts.....
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Post by cousindupree on Apr 15, 2019 11:35:07 GMT
Yes it is subjective. I guess by worse I mean players currently plying their trade in the lower echelons of the English football league. I suppose it can work out but you are accepting that as a recently relegated team you have no inherent advantage over the other 23 clubs, so if you go down this route you'd better be bloody good at it. I think we can quite safely say we’ve spunked any advantage well and truly up the wall. Norwich have proven that it can work. Their entire side cost less than what they sold James Maddison for. Indeed its quite a success story at Norwich but not a model thats particularly relevant to us. Norwich went for a foreign coach with knowledge and contacts of Europe, Germany in particular. The successful side is based on foreign players a few hardened in the Bundesliga. The Norwich model is one that saw promotion success at the likes of Huddersfield, Fulham, Wolves Watford etc. SCFC on the other hand will be dredging div 1 and div 2 trying to find some gems who may or may not make the step up.
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 15, 2019 11:37:18 GMT
Don't think he ever had a decision to make, did he? MON never actually pressed ahead with the deal, did he? Lots of talk, but nothing materialised. If a bid would've been accepted, surely he would've been open to playing for MON, who he's clearly got a lot of time for. If we are going with the diamond (and you'd sill probably guess we are), it's hard to see much of a future at all for McClean. And based on the small sample of Ince in the No.10 role, that's probably not going to end well either. But he's another that Jones has really talked up, including the bizarre quotes in the programme on Saturday saying Ince was "in exceptional form recently so would be a big miss" He clearly likes McClean's attitude, and strangely he was the only one other than Butland that Jones offered any praise at the weekend "at least McClean worked hard..." But there's zero use for him in a diamond. I've stopped trying to work out where his belief in Clucas is coming from. When you list the players not suited to the diamond, I think we should also include Verlinden, I just don't see how he slots in and I think he maybe the surprise player to leave this summer. It's nice to have a genuine wide player around the squad as a Plan B though. And probably better to have a young player with potential on a low wage for that role, rather than McClean (who seems about as one-dimensional a wide player as you'll see) or Ince (who hasn't looked the part at all in his brief outings infield) Suppose it's possible Verlinden could adapt to the central role, but seems unlikely as he too seems very wingery indeed!
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Post by sheds1862 on Apr 15, 2019 11:51:33 GMT
We could be left with the Stoke equivalent of Jack Rodwell Huge salary, never played, the forgotten man.
We have 3 or 4 possible Jack rodwells
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 15, 2019 11:53:35 GMT
I think we can quite safely say we’ve spunked any advantage well and truly up the wall. Norwich have proven that it can work. Their entire side cost less than what they sold James Maddison for. Indeed its quite a success story at Norwich but not a model thats particularly relevant to us. Norwich went for a foreign coach with knowledge and contacts of Europe, Germany in particular. The successful side is based on foreign players a few hardened in the Bundesliga. The Norwich model is one that saw promotion success at the likes of Huddersfield, Fulham, Wolves Watford etc. SCFC on the other hand will be dredging div 1 and div 2 trying to find some gems who may or may not make the step up. Their big success is that they ditched their CEO in favour of a sporting director... We don't actually know that about Jones do we? We're just assuming there but actually there's every chance he's got some decent contacts given the managers he's worked for and his time in Spain, plus Paul Hart's experience.
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Post by potterpaul on Apr 15, 2019 11:54:55 GMT
When you list the players not suited to the diamond, I think we should also include Verlinden, I just don't see how he slots in and I think he maybe the surprise player to leave this summer. It's nice to have a genuine wide player around the squad as a Plan B though. And probably better to have a young player with potential on a low wage for that role, rather than McClean (who seems about as one-dimensional a wide player as you'll see) or Ince (who hasn't looked the part at all in his brief outings infield) Suppose it's possible Verlinden could adapt to the central role, but seems unlikely as he too seems very wingery indeed! Agree but he's been part of our set up for quite a while now and is making great strides towards a first teamer, will he and his agent be happy with just a squad place on the outers because he doesn't quite fit? It's a critical time for the likes of Verlinden and being part of the wrong team could affect his development.
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Post by cousindupree on Apr 15, 2019 12:21:31 GMT
Indeed its quite a success story at Norwich but not a model thats particularly relevant to us. Norwich went for a foreign coach with knowledge and contacts of Europe, Germany in particular. The successful side is based on foreign players a few hardened in the Bundesliga. The Norwich model is one that saw promotion success at the likes of Huddersfield, Fulham, Wolves Watford etc. SCFC on the other hand will be dredging div 1 and div 2 trying to find some gems who may or may not make the step up. Their big success is that they ditched their CEO in favour of a sporting director... We don't actually know that about Jones do we? We're just assuming there but actually there's every chance he's got some decent contacts given the managers he's worked for and his time in Spain, plus Paul Hart's experience. Not sure Paul Hart has much to bring to the table, he has been working in the lower divisions for some time. Jones hasn't really had much overseas experience though has he? Worked under Garcia for a short while but there was no evidence of overseas recruiting at Luton. The reality is that Jones is very inexperienced at recruiting anywhere other than lower divisions or Scotland and ireland. it would be really useful to have a decent recruitment network across Europe that can help Jones but there isn't. I am not saying recruitment from Europe is a must but without it I remain unconvinced that fishing in a UK lower league pool will really find what we need.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 15, 2019 12:27:12 GMT
Their big success is that they ditched their CEO in favour of a sporting director... We don't actually know that about Jones do we? We're just assuming there but actually there's every chance he's got some decent contacts given the managers he's worked for and his time in Spain, plus Paul Hart's experience. Not sure Paul Hart has much to bring to the table, he has been working in the lower divisions for some time. Jones hasn't really had much overseas experience though has he? Worked under Garcia for a short while but there was no evidence of overseas recruiting at Luton. The reality is that Jones is very inexperienced at recruiting anywhere other than lower divisions or Scotland and ireland. it would be really useful to have a decent recruitment network across Europe that can help Jones but there isn't. I am not saying recruitment from Europe is a must but without it I remain unconvinced that fishing in a UK lower league pool will really find what we need. The lower leagues aren't awash with foreign players - or good ones at least - anyway though, so it's chicken and egg. He's worked with Garcia, Hyypia and others at Brighton. We don't know either way.
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Post by spitthedog on Apr 15, 2019 12:28:53 GMT
What I realized on Saturday and maybe slower than other supporters we do not have the physicality for the championship. Trying to change the rugby team label with a mixed team of physical ability players and good ability players was not good enough for the premier league in the end. We now don't have enough physicality about us. We have to step back 11/12 years and start again. with enough ability and physicality in each player and not a team mixture of. Ive been banging on about this for months...and the main focus for this is midfield Compare Whitehead and Whelan to Allen and Etebo On paper you might think the latter would be the more talented, but the first two were like a brick wall for other teams. Teams have been waltzing through our midfield all season at will. Too lightweight.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Apr 15, 2019 12:38:47 GMT
Sell who we can. Pay players contracts out. Tell some it pointless staying you won't be played. Certain players Jones will happily keep. Any decent money in for those Jones would like to keep, let them go. Anyone who not wanted accept an ok amount. Keep wanted players separate from those bad eggs when pre season training starts. You can only sell players who are wanted by another club or if they are prepared to take a drop in wages And to pay players contracts up would be financial suicide I think for a select few we should consider paying off their contracts Werrington. It would be costly but would set out a marker and cut some of the poison of the Club. Ideally we would have followed a disciplinary process that would have enabled us to terminate for the likes of Berahino!
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Post by werrington on Apr 15, 2019 12:45:40 GMT
You can only sell players who are wanted by another club or if they are prepared to take a drop in wages And to pay players contracts up would be financial suicide I think for a select few we should consider paying off their contracts Werrington. It would be costly but would set out a marker and cut some of the poison of the Club. Ideally we would have followed a disciplinary process that would have enabled us to terminate for the likes of Berahino! The majority of the ones you are probably on about will be released in the summer anyway mate and yeah Berahino will be sacked It’d be financial madness to pay up Ndiaye Wimmer and Imbula....it’s more viable to keep loaning if nobody wishes to buy or the players refuse to take pay cuts
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 15, 2019 12:48:09 GMT
What I realized on Saturday and maybe slower than other supporters we do not have the physicality for the championship. Trying to change the rugby team label with a mixed team of physical ability players and good ability players was not good enough for the premier league in the end. We now don't have enough physicality about us. We have to step back 11/12 years and start again. with enough ability and physicality in each player and not a team mixture of. Ive been banging on about this for months...and the main focus for this is midfield Compare Whitehead and Whelan to Allen and Etebo On paper you might think the latter would be the more talented, but the first two were like a brick wall for other teams. Teams have been waltzing through our midfield all season at will. Too lightweight. Excellent post, and because Allen and Etebo have to play, Bojan cannot be played too often as it makes our MF as soft as mush.
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Post by potterpaul on Apr 15, 2019 12:53:11 GMT
I think for a select few we should consider paying off their contracts Werrington. It would be costly but would set out a marker and cut some of the poison of the Club. Ideally we would have followed a disciplinary process that would have enabled us to terminate for the likes of Berahino! The majority of the ones you are probably on about will be released in the summer anyway mate and yeah Berahino will be sacked It’d be financial madness to pay up Ndiaye Wimmer and Imbula....it’s more viable to keep loaning if nobody wishes to buy or the players refuse to take pay cuts I thought there was a further reduction in salaries having failed to gain promotion including those that remained on PL pay(Allen, Butland, Ryan, Bauer) surely the relegation reduction and failure reduction applies to those on loan?
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Post by werrington on Apr 15, 2019 12:54:54 GMT
The majority of the ones you are probably on about will be released in the summer anyway mate and yeah Berahino will be sacked It’d be financial madness to pay up Ndiaye Wimmer and Imbula....it’s more viable to keep loaning if nobody wishes to buy or the players refuse to take pay cuts I thought there was a further reduction in salaries having failed to gain promotion including those that remained on PL pay(Allen, Butland, Ryan, Bauer) surely the relegation reduction and failure reduction applies to those on loan? It would still be a huge amount to pay up in one foul swoop given we no longer have the tv money
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Post by potterpaul on Apr 15, 2019 12:59:23 GMT
I thought there was a further reduction in salaries having failed to gain promotion including those that remained on PL pay(Allen, Butland, Ryan, Bauer) surely the relegation reduction and failure reduction applies to those on loan? It would still be a huge amount to pay up in one foul swoop given we no longer have the tv money Yes very true, but maybe it won't be as hard to shift them if they are back to £30000 a week compared to their £75000 they were on
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