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Post by Seymour Beaver on May 14, 2019 16:22:18 GMT
You'll see when he's gone..... That's hardly conclusive is it, for what we class as a 'big player' for us and this league on a big contract has he been head & shoulders above others? Has he been the same player for us that the commentators were praising well he was playing for Wales? I don't think so, maybe it's the imbalance in the team whilst playing for scfc in I don't know but for a so called decent premiership player (an honest one) I expect more . It's hard to dislike him, he (to me) seems more embarrassed about how shit we are more than the others, hes an honest player but if that's what we are judging a player by then I suspect we will get a fair few of them come in over the summer. So what is allen adding on an in game basis that makes him worth north of 15m? Well at least that is a considered response rather than some of the dismissive dirge others have posted elsewhere. My own take on it for what it's worth is that we don't see the best of him because too much is expected (as much by the four managers he's had as anyone else). As our defence has crumbled his role has incresaingly become that of a protector looking to cover every blade of grass. It's a negative role, unattractive an not particualrly eye catching which togther with an expectation that he should be creative as well feels underwhelming. I suspect the coaches appreciate what he does for us more than the crowd do. Hence my point we'll miss him when he's gone. Take your point about more balance - particulalrly along the back line - should that function better then either (a) Allen if he stays could be more effectively used - facing forwards (rather than backwards as more often than not he's required to do today) or (b) an incoming replacement wouldn't need to cover the grass he covers today and need not therefore be a direct replacement. Just my opinion like - based on what I see.
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 14, 2019 16:27:58 GMT
Three full seasons at the club and has played in every league game. Not bad for someone who runs around aimlessly and who can be constantly drawn out of position. Apply for a coaching role at the club, surely you could enhance his game where others have failed. That he’s played in every league game over the last three seasons is hardly a ringing endorsement. He’s been a massive part of the problem during our rapid decline. He’s not lacking in effort. He’s just not a very good footballer. I bow to your superior knowledge, no doubt so will the “professionals” at his previous clubs (132 of which were for Liverpool), those if he moves on, and of course those who have/do manage the Welsh National Team (49 caps) Perhaps the more knowledgeable and tactical genius’s who post on the Oatcake could combine efforts and publish a coaching manual. I’m confident it would be endorsed by the footballing elite and become a best seller.
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 14, 2019 16:49:52 GMT
You'll see when he's gone..... That's hardly conclusive is it, for what we class as a 'big player' for us and this league on a big contract has he been head & shoulders above others? Has he been the same player for us that the commentators were praising well he was playing for Wales? I don't think so, maybe it's the imbalance in the team whilst playing for scfc in I don't know but for a so called decent premiership player (an honest one) I expect more . It's hard to dislike him, he (to me) seems more embarrassed about how shit we are more than the others, hes an honest player but if that's what we are judging a player by then I suspect we will get a fair few of them come in over the summer. So what is allen adding on an in game basis that makes him worth north of 15m? He's one of the big reasons there's no balance, signed him when there wasn't a position for him and no ones found one since, he was a poor signing.
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 14, 2019 16:52:05 GMT
That he’s played in every league game over the last three seasons is hardly a ringing endorsement. He’s been a massive part of the problem during our rapid decline. He’s not lacking in effort. He’s just not a very good footballer. I bow to your superior knowledge, no doubt so will the “professionals” at his previous clubs (132 of which were for Liverpool), those if he moves on, and of course those who have/do manage the Welsh National Team (49 caps)Perhaps the more knowledgeable and tactical genius’s who post on the Oatcake could combine efforts and publish a coaching manual. I’m confident it would be endorsed by the footballing elite and become a best seller. It would be worth mentioning if it was Brazil or someone like that he'd got 49 caps for but it Wales
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Post by roylandstoke on May 14, 2019 16:57:19 GMT
I bow to your superior knowledge, no doubt so will the “professionals” at his previous clubs (132 of which were for Liverpool), those if he moves on, and of course those who have/do manage the Welsh National Team (49 caps)Perhaps the more knowledgeable and tactical genius’s who post on the Oatcake could combine efforts and publish a coaching manual. I’m confident it would be endorsed by the footballing elite and become a best seller. It would be worth mentioning if it was Brazil or someone like that he'd got 49 caps for but it Wales Wales made the semis of the last Euros: when England make the semis of anything the media present it something worthy of a national holiday.
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Post by StatesideStokie on May 14, 2019 17:13:16 GMT
That he’s played in every league game over the last three seasons is hardly a ringing endorsement. He’s been a massive part of the problem during our rapid decline. He’s not lacking in effort. He’s just not a very good footballer. I bow to your superior knowledge, no doubt so will the “professionals” at his previous clubs (132 of which were for Liverpool), those if he moves on, and of course those who have/do manage the Welsh National Team (49 caps) Perhaps the more knowledgeable and tactical genius’s who post on the Oatcake could combine efforts and publish a coaching manual. I’m confident it would be endorsed by the footballing elite and become a best seller. It’s a football message board, mate. Not everyone is going to have the same opinion. You can feel free to disagree, but you don’t have to be a professional coach to share an opinion on a message board.
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Joe Allen
May 14, 2019 17:24:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by berahinosgoals on May 14, 2019 17:24:19 GMT
That's hardly conclusive is it, for what we class as a 'big player' for us and this league on a big contract has he been head & shoulders above others? Has he been the same player for us that the commentators were praising well he was playing for Wales? I don't think so, maybe it's the imbalance in the team whilst playing for scfc in I don't know but for a so called decent premiership player (an honest one) I expect more . It's hard to dislike him, he (to me) seems more embarrassed about how shit we are more than the others, hes an honest player but if that's what we are judging a player by then I suspect we will get a fair few of them come in over the summer. So what is allen adding on an in game basis that makes him worth north of 15m? Well at least that is a considered response rather than some of the dismissive dirge others have posted elsewhere. My own take on it for what it's worth is that we don't see the best of him because too much is expected (as much by the four managers he's had as anyone else). As our defence has crumbled his role has incresaingly become that of a protector looking to cover every blade of grass. It's a negative role, unattractive an not particualrly eye catching which togther with an expectation that he should be creative as well feels underwhelming. I suspect the coaches appreciate what he does for us more than the crowd do. Hence my point we'll miss him when he's gone. Take your point about more balance - particulalrly along the back line - should that function better then either (a) Allen if he stays could be more effectively used - facing forwards (rather than backwards as more often than not he's required to do today) or (b) an incoming replacement wouldn't need to cover the grass he covers today and need not therefore be a direct replacement. Just my opinion like - based on what I see. Maybe too much is expected of him as you say, not sure myself. I think Allen is a luxury we can manage without. I'd look to move him on well we can get a good fee for him. Our midfield is much of the same, Allen to me is not a big creative force, neither a big defensive one. I'm not sure what to make of him, maybe hes just a poor buy for what we need as boskamps says above so I'd lose no sleep if we moved him on this summer, especially for a decent fee well his stock is reasonable
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 14, 2019 18:31:41 GMT
That's hardly conclusive is it, for what we class as a 'big player' for us and this league on a big contract has he been head & shoulders above others? Has he been the same player for us that the commentators were praising well he was playing for Wales? I don't think so, maybe it's the imbalance in the team whilst playing for scfc in I don't know but for a so called decent premiership player (an honest one) I expect more . It's hard to dislike him, he (to me) seems more embarrassed about how shit we are more than the others, hes an honest player but if that's what we are judging a player by then I suspect we will get a fair few of them come in over the summer. So what is allen adding on an in game basis that makes him worth north of 15m? He one of the big reasons there's no balance, signed him when there wasn't a position for him and no ones found one since, he was poor signing. You could argue that he may have been a poor signing. However as some would like you to believe that he’s a poor footballer is ridiculous having knowledge of the number of games played different levels both for club and country.
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 14, 2019 18:33:55 GMT
I bow to your superior knowledge, no doubt so will the “professionals” at his previous clubs (132 of which were for Liverpool), those if he moves on, and of course those who have/do manage the Welsh National Team (49 caps)Perhaps the more knowledgeable and tactical genius’s who post on the Oatcake could combine efforts and publish a coaching manual. I’m confident it would be endorsed by the footballing elite and become a best seller. It would be worth mentioning if it was Brazil or someone like that he'd got 49 caps for but it Wales I suppose you could use the name “Gareth Bale” in the same analogy then
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Post by Pugsley on May 14, 2019 18:39:59 GMT
Allen is a good player totally mismanaged from day 1 by Stoke City managers.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 18:52:54 GMT
Came to Stoke as a deep lying playmaker who kept things simple and kept things ticking over.
Has ended up as a directionless engine because of some ludicrous idea of turning him into a number ten.
I'm convinced this has created a confused player that just doesn't know what he is anymore at completely the wrong time in his career.
A move to Leicester and back under Rodgers will do him the world of good.
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Post by Pugsley on May 14, 2019 18:54:50 GMT
Came to Stoke as a deep lying playmaker who kept things simple and kept things ticking over. Has ended up as a directionless engine because of some ludicrous idea of turning him into a number ten. I'm convinced this has created a confused player that just doesn't know what he is anymore at completely the wrong time in his career. A move to Leicester and back under Rodgers will do him the world of good. He could have been our Kante (not as good I know) using his engine to sweep up across the back four then keeping it simple.
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 14, 2019 18:55:47 GMT
It would be worth mentioning if it was Brazil or someone like that he'd got 49 caps for but it Wales I suppose you could use the name “Gareth Bale” in the same analogy then Yeh, pretty much, I never understand when people say stuff like he's an international player as if its a good thing when its a crap team like Wales or whatever, its hardly a boast.
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Post by Pugsley on May 14, 2019 18:56:50 GMT
I suppose you could use the name “Gareth Bale” in the same analogy then Yeh, pretty much, I never understand when people say stuff like he's an international player as if its a good thing when its a crap team like Wales or whatever, its hardly a boast. He was key player in getting Wales to the semis of a major championship. Named in the team of the tournament as well.
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 14, 2019 18:59:36 GMT
Yeh, pretty much, I never understand when people say stuff like he's an international player as if its a good thing when its a crap team like Wales or whatever, its hardly a boast. He was key player in getting Wales to the semis of a major championship. Named in the team of the tournament as well. I stand corrected, Wales are a great team
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Post by Pugsley on May 14, 2019 19:03:00 GMT
He was key player in getting Wales to the semis of a major championship. Named in the team of the tournament as well. I stand corrected, Wales are a great team
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Joe Allen
May 15, 2019 0:40:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by trickydicky73 on May 15, 2019 0:40:00 GMT
Joe Allen is a pretty good player. I agree with Pugs, he has been played wrong. He also came here when Whelan was on his last legs, which didn't help.
Put him in Whelan's role with N'Zonzi and my guess is he'd have been fine.
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Post by pez75 on May 15, 2019 11:20:57 GMT
I seriously do not get the debate here.
If anyone has consistently watched Stoke for the last 3 years and does not rate Joe Allen as a player then they know fuck all about football.
Close the thread.
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Post by nottsover60 on May 15, 2019 11:38:16 GMT
Joe Allen is a pretty good player. I agree with Pugs, he has been played wrong. He also came here when Whelan was on his last legs, which didn't help. Put him in Whelan's role with N'Zonzi and my guess is he'd have been fine. I think Whelan has proved his legs hadn't gone when Allen arrived. He was the one dropped to make room for Allen but when results weren't going our way brought back in to the team with Allen pusged forward. I suspect that in his last two seasons with us when Whelan was regularly dropped and then reinstated that we gained far more points when he played than when he didn't.
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Joe Allen
May 15, 2019 12:09:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on May 15, 2019 12:09:44 GMT
Allen has been a model pro and a decent player. The problem for me is that our midfield is decent but too lightweight - we need one or two beasts in there. I think Allen and/or Etebo would be far more effective running off a couple of players doing the dirty work and attracting more of the attention of the opposition.
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Post by stokeyank on May 15, 2019 12:15:45 GMT
Never rated Joe much but agree he has been played out of position which has hurt him massively. He's not a creator but shows his abilities when played along side one. He's great at breaking up play, short quick passes and the occasional darting run, but not much else. Put him in the right team and he's a valuable asset. Sadly we are not that team at the moment.
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Post by kelw on May 15, 2019 13:37:00 GMT
It would be worth mentioning if it was Brazil or someone like that he'd got 49 caps for but it Wales Wales made the semis of the last Euros: when England make the semis of anything the media present it something worthy of a national holiday. Yep, the arrogance of looking down upon Wales who came as close to winning a tournament as England have in my lifetime. How many caps did say Joe Hart or Theo Walcott get? Giants of the inernational game of course
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Post by Robo10 on May 15, 2019 14:04:01 GMT
Wales made the semis of the last Euros: when England make the semis of anything the media present it something worthy of a national holiday. Yep, the arrogance of looking down upon Wales who came as close to winning a tournament as England have in my lifetime. How many caps did say Joe Hart or Theo Walcott get? Giants of the inernational game of course is that apart from the World Cup semi final England got to last summer where they went out in extra time having been 20 mins from the final, or 11 mins away from pens to get to the final? Appreciate Wales got to the semis of Euro 2016, but beat a fairly poor Russia and Slovenia (that I understand we did not!), lost to the worst England side since 2014 ;-) , beat a poor N Ireland side, and credit beat chokers Belgium in the QF before being battered by Portugal in the semi. It was a fairly poor tournament for most of the 'big teams' full stop. In my lifetime, I have seen (so can remember!) England missing out on a QF place in WC82 having been drawn in a second round 'group of death' with Spain and W Germany, QF in WC86 robbed by Maradonas hand, SF in WC90 on pens, SF in EU96 again missing out on pens, QF in WC02 in Korea and a Brazil wondergoal, QF EU04 and Ronaldo/Pens, QF WC06 again on pens to Ronaldo (and the wink/Rooney sending off) So yes, England have had some duff periods in between, but that history in my lifetime is a little beyond Wales having one good tournament, and indeed the only one they have qualified for?
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Post by kelw on May 15, 2019 14:14:58 GMT
Yep, the arrogance of looking down upon Wales who came as close to winning a tournament as England have in my lifetime. How many caps did say Joe Hart or Theo Walcott get? Giants of the inernational game of course is that apart from the World Cup semi final England got to last summer where they went out in extra time having been 20 mins from the final, or 11 mins away from pens to get to the final? Appreciate Wales got to the semis of Euro 2016, but beat a fairly poor Russia and Slovenia (that I understand we did not!), lost to the worst England side since 2014 ;-) , beat a poor N Ireland side, and credit beat chokers Belgium in the QF before being battered by Portugal in the semi. It was a fairly poor tournament for most of the 'big teams' full stop. In my lifetime, I have seen (so can remember!) England missing out on a QF place in WC82 having been drawn in a second round 'group of death' with Spain and W Germany, QF in WC86 robbed by Maradonas hand, SF in WC90 on pens, SF in EU96 again missing out on pens, QF in WC02 in Korea and a Brazil wondergoal, QF EU04 and Ronaldo/Pens, QF WC06 again on pens to Ronaldo (and the wink/Rooney sending off) So yes, England have had some duff periods in between, but that history in my lifetime is a little beyond Wales having one good tournament, and indeed the only one they have qualified for? My point is, typical arrogant attitude to small countries where football isn't even the national sport. You can talk about decisions but England had THE biggest decision in a WC ever. Scotland have qualified for tournaments when England didn't,even Ireland have. As for a poor N Ireland side, they qualified on merit and beat England in their last competitive meeting. A bit like saying was a poor Iceland side... Cough!! Is very much a case of saying we've won nothing with huge resources but neither have that far smaller country over there but we came slightly closer to doing so. Wales considering what they have do very well
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Post by JurgenVandeurzen on May 15, 2019 15:01:29 GMT
Some of the shit performances and blatant lack of effort we've endured this season and there are still people pointing fingers and criticising Joe?
Whatever you think of Allen he's given us 100% this season, which is more than 80% can attest to.
Joe would be so far down the list of reasons we've been dogshit this season, it's unbelievable. The fact that if he was to move this summer it would 100% be to a Premier League team, says all you need to know about how people within the game feel about him.
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Post by Northy on May 15, 2019 15:04:07 GMT
Yep, the arrogance of looking down upon Wales who came as close to winning a tournament as England have in my lifetime. How many caps did say Joe Hart or Theo Walcott get? Giants of the inernational game of course is that apart from the World Cup semi final England got to last summer where they went out in extra time having been 20 mins from the final, or 11 mins away from pens to get to the final? Appreciate Wales got to the semis of Euro 2016, but beat a fairly poor Russia and Slovenia (that I understand we did not!), lost to the worst England side since 2014 ;-) , beat a poor N Ireland side, and credit beat chokers Belgium in the QF before being battered by Portugal in the semi. It was a fairly poor tournament for most of the 'big teams' full stop. In my lifetime, I have seen (so can remember!) England missing out on a QF place in WC82 having been drawn in a second round 'group of death' with Spain and W Germany, QF in WC86 robbed by Maradonas hand, SF in WC90 on pens, SF in EU96 again missing out on pens, QF in WC02 in Korea and a Brazil wondergoal, QF EU04 and Ronaldo/Pens, QF WC06 again on pens to Ronaldo (and the wink/Rooney sending off) So yes, England have had some duff periods in between, but that history in my lifetime is a little beyond Wales having one good tournament, and indeed the only one they have qualified for? I'd put England failings down to Roy Hodgson.
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 15, 2019 15:05:40 GMT
Wales made the semis of the last Euros: when England make the semis of anything the media present it something worthy of a national holiday. Yep, the arrogance of looking down upon Wales who came as close to winning a tournament as England have in my lifetime. How many caps did say Joe Hart or Theo Walcott get? Giants of the inernational game of course England have been pretty crap too, Whelan has more caps than Allen, is he a better payer or does his national side just happen to be shit enough for him to be able to play for them. My point is more general than Allen tbh.
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Post by franklin66 on May 15, 2019 15:16:13 GMT
Joe Allen is a fine player and top pro.
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Post by GoBoks on May 15, 2019 16:21:52 GMT
Yep, the arrogance of looking down upon Wales who came as close to winning a tournament as England have in my lifetime. How many caps did say Joe Hart or Theo Walcott get? Giants of the inernational game of course is that apart from the World Cup semi final England got to last summer where they went out in extra time having been 20 mins from the final, or 11 mins away from pens to get to the final? Appreciate Wales got to the semis of Euro 2016, but beat a fairly poor Russia and Slovenia (that I understand we did not!), lost to the worst England side since 2014 ;-) , beat a poor N Ireland side, and credit beat chokers Belgium in the QF before being battered by Portugal in the semi. It was a fairly poor tournament for most of the 'big teams' full stop. In my lifetime, I have seen (so can remember!) England missing out on a QF place in WC82 having been drawn in a second round 'group of death' with Spain and W Germany, QF in WC86 robbed by Maradonas hand, SF in WC90 on pens, SF in EU96 again missing out on pens, QF in WC02 in Korea and a Brazil wondergoal, QF EU04 and Ronaldo/Pens, QF WC06 again on pens to Ronaldo (and the wink/Rooney sending off) So yes, England have had some duff periods in between, but that history in my lifetime is a little beyond Wales having one good tournament, and indeed the only one they have qualified for? That's like saying that Stoke could have won the FA Cup but for the fact we lost to a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j & k teams!
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Joe Allen
May 15, 2019 16:32:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by RedandWhite90 on May 15, 2019 16:32:15 GMT
I seriously do not get the debate here. If anyone has consistently watched Stoke for the last 3 years and does not rate Joe Allen as a player then they know fuck all about football. Close the thread. I know fuck all about football #1
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