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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 8, 2019 23:19:46 GMT
One of the grimmest and most contradictory pieces of sycophancy to appear in the Sentinel in recent times. Re-hashed a few weeks later for extra club brownie points.
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 8, 2019 23:22:33 GMT
One of the grimmest pieces of sycophancy to appear in the Sentinel in recent times. Re-hashed a few weeks later for extra club brownie points. You don’t think Cartwright signs the players do you momo?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 8, 2019 23:24:52 GMT
So you believe everything you read then? Particularly from a local media outlet that wouldn't dare raise anything controversial about our club? I was kind of hoping you might share your knowledge on the matter. I think that’s a reasonable job description yes. Do you personally know any better? Enlighten me.... I know he signed 2 players when we had no manager which kind of makes a mockery of that sentinel article. I also know he signed 2 players at the start of his tenure without the support of the then manager which again makes a mockery of that sentinel article. We also know that contact extensions were handed out to players the manager didn't want which again makes a mockery of that sentinel article. Given your assertion and the holier than thou attitude that oozed out of your statement I was hoping you'd come up with a lite more than spinks article as your evidence to be fair. You answered my question anyhow so thanks for that.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 8, 2019 23:29:05 GMT
One of the grimmest pieces of sycophancy to appear in the Sentinel in recent times. Re-hashed a few weeks later for extra club brownie points. You don’t think Cartwright signs the players do you momo? That whole article is a load of contradictory nonsense mate put out on behalf of the club or Cartwright personally. It makes no sense, saying he has nothing to do with it, then saying he has something to do with it, then saying he was completely responsible for about four or five It is also a completely at odds with the explanation of his role when he joined the club. If the job is as he describes, basically making a few phone calls and updating his Football Manager Database, I hope he isn't on much more than £25K and it's not really worthy of 'Director' in the title.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 8, 2019 23:31:23 GMT
As they say in Parliament, I refer the honourable gentleman to the post I made above. In the areas I mentioned we have been a very good club in recent years, and certainly one which has been proactive and supportive to some of the things the FSF has been working for. I think the analogy with normal FTSE companies is misplaced because of the promotion and relegation system which is the major determinant of lost income. If the world's 20 best CEOs all worked in the Premier League, 3 of them would still "fail" each year on that definition. A lot of the rest is either hyperbole and/or not evidenced. On no reasonable analysis could you call Stoke City a business failure or a media joke. Of course, relegation was a huge disappointment, the managerial appointment didn't work out as planned and quality and value for money in player recruitment is certainly one of those areas where the club has not performed at all well. I have only read a small proportion of the huge volume of posts on the responsibility for recruitment, but I haven't seen clear evidence of knowledge ( as opposed to speculation, prejudice and over-interpretation) of the extent of authority and the lines of management accountability as between the Board, the CEO, the Head of Recruitment, the Team Manager and the Finance Director. So I simply don't know, like I suspect the large majority of posters, however vitriolic, on this and other social media outlets. Football is a strange and unique industry, with different models of responsibility and accountability at different clubs and it is a mistake to assume that normal corporate models are applicable. Football CEOs do not usually have the all embracing authority that their counterparts in the corporate world have. But if you want to learn about clubs which have been really badly run I can introduce you to the fans of Blackpool, Coventry City, Charlton, Leyton Orient, Hull City, Leeds United (until quite recently), Portsmouth ( until the fans took over) and many others. Malcom i respect your view but on what basis would you call the business anything other than an abject failure over the last three years ,, simply saying it’s bettrr than Coventry isn’t enough . Given the enormous patronage and support of the owners not available in any of the other examples the business has failed miserably and the only ones held to account are the team managers To be fair, I said far more than it's better than Coventry. I gave various examples of where I think the club has been and is well run, but agree that in player recruitment ( and the latest manager recruitment) in particular, things haven't gone well, and a lot of money hasn't been as well spent in that area as it should have been. I think there are some other areas where the Club could improve, but, with respect, I think your overall summary is well over the top, and loses credibility as a result. Of course, there is a sense in which any relegated club in any league has 'failed' and it is statistically inevitable that each season there will be 3 of them in the PL, regardless of how well their CEOs have performed. It's the nature of football. Believe me, despite our relegation, there are a lot of fans of other clubs who think that in some of those areas we are still a good example, and plenty who are envious of us having stable, local ownership.
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 8, 2019 23:37:47 GMT
I think that’s a reasonable job description yes. Do you personally know any better? Enlighten me.... I know he signed 2 players when we had no manager which kind of makes a mockery of that sentinel article. I also know he signed 2 players at the start of his tenure without the support of the then manager which again makes a mockery of that sentinel article. We also know that contact extensions were handed out to players the manager didn't want which again makes a mockery of that sentinel article. Given your assertion and the holier than thou attitude that oozed out of your statement I was hoping you'd come up with a lite more than spinks article as your evidence to be fair. You answered my question anyhow so thanks for that. So to confirm, you think you know better than Martin Spinks when it comes to the day to day role of our technical director? Bauer was a Hughes signing and officially signed on the day he was sacked. Badou was sanctioned by Hughes and got the nod from Lambert who had been the manager for two weeks when he arrived. Who’s “holier than thou”? The recruitment has been disastrous at times, no one can doubt that. I just don’t think that the blame is necessarily being apportioned correctly. It’s clear to me that the manager has final say on transfers and contract extensions (the only possible exception to this I would say is Etebo). The technical directors job is to work with the manager and find a list of players who fit his requirements within the financial framework provided by the CEO. Kevin Wimmer could very easily have been Harry Maguire. Josh Tymon could have been Robertson. It’s not the fault of Cartwright that it turned out differently.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 8, 2019 23:41:19 GMT
I know he signed 2 players when we had no manager which kind of makes a mockery of that sentinel article. I also know he signed 2 players at the start of his tenure without the support of the then manager which again makes a mockery of that sentinel article. We also know that contact extensions were handed out to players the manager didn't want which again makes a mockery of that sentinel article. Given your assertion and the holier than thou attitude that oozed out of your statement I was hoping you'd come up with a lite more than spinks article as your evidence to be fair. You answered my question anyhow so thanks for that. So to confirm, you think you know better than Martin Spinks when it comes to the day to day role of our technical director? Bauer was a Hughes signing and officially signed on the day he was sacked. Badou was sanctioned by Hughes and got the nod from Lambert who had been the manager for two weeks when he arrived. Who’s “holier than thou”? The recruitment has been disastrous at times, no one can doubt that. I just don’t think that the blame is necessarily being apportioned correctly. It’s clear to me that the manager has final say on transfers and contract extensions (the only possible exception to this I would say is Etebo). The technical directors job is to work with the manager and find a list of players who fit his requirements within the financial framework provided by the CEO. Mr Cartwright claimed bauer as his own in the summer. I have no idea what spinks knows. I know fuck all other than what I see with my own eyes. There doesn't appear to have been much "working with the manager" going on given that pulis, Hughes and rowett each hated him.
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 8, 2019 23:42:57 GMT
So to confirm, you think you know better than Martin Spinks when it comes to the day to day role of our technical director? Bauer was a Hughes signing and officially signed on the day he was sacked. Badou was sanctioned by Hughes and got the nod from Lambert who had been the manager for two weeks when he arrived. Who’s “holier than thou”? The recruitment has been disastrous at times, no one can doubt that. I just don’t think that the blame is necessarily being apportioned correctly. It’s clear to me that the manager has final say on transfers and contract extensions (the only possible exception to this I would say is Etebo). The technical directors job is to work with the manager and find a list of players who fit his requirements within the financial framework provided by the CEO. Mr Cartwright claimed bauer as his own in the summer. I have no idea what spinks knows. I know fuck all other than what I see with my own eyes. There doesn't appear to have been much "working with the manager" going on given that pulis, Hughes and rowett each hated him. Complete conjecture on your part there. How on earth do you know any of that?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 8, 2019 23:44:05 GMT
So you believe everything you read then? Particularly from a local media outlet that wouldn't dare raise anything controversial about our club? I was kind of hoping you might share your knowledge on the matter. Further to my previous posts, I think it would be perfectly legitimate business for the Supporters Council to ask the CEO ( who attends all SC meetings) to outline exactly what are the responsibilities and accountabilities of all the various people involved in player recruitment. Doing it face to face with supplementaries if necessary in the body set up for liaison with fans is the right way of doing it, IMHO, and I can't see why Tony S. would have a problem with that - the more so given that interviews have previously been given to the press on it. Of course he won't discuss individual's performance, including his own, in that setting, and neither should he, or details of individual transfers, but clarity on who is responsible for what would be helpful. All we have on here at the moment is far more heat than light, and huge amounts of speculation, assumption and a fair bit of personal abuse. Is mickstupp on the supporters council? If he isn't, have the supporters council raised this?
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 8, 2019 23:44:37 GMT
Fuck me, the state of some the Scholes rimming on here. Some Stoke fans fully deserve the past three years we've had if we have another couple the same, it will be this Luton 'patsy for the process' who will take the hit. Is there anything this goon could do that would make you question his contribution? I'm not sure if that comment and question is directed at me ? If it is, it's not possible to give a sensible response to a post which is dismissive and insulting in tone without containing any substantive argument or information. If it's not aimed at me - apologies.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jan 8, 2019 23:45:33 GMT
Malcom i respect your view but on what basis would you call the business anything other than an abject failure over the last three years ,, simply saying it’s bettrr than Coventry isn’t enough . Given the enormous patronage and support of the owners not available in any of the other examples the business has failed miserably and the only ones held to account are the team managers To be fair, I said far more than it's better than Coventry. I gave various examples of where I think the club has been and is well run, but agree that in player recruitment ( and the latest manager recruitment) in particular, things haven't gone well, and a lot of money hasn't been as well spent in that area as it should have been. I think there are some other areas where the Club could improve, but, with respect, I think your overall summary is well over the top, and loses credibility as a result. Of course, there is a sense in which any relegated club in any league has 'failed' and it is statistically inevitable that each season there will be 3 of them in the PL, regardless of how well their CEOs have performed. It's the nature of football. Believe me, despite our relegation, there are a lot of fans of other clubs who think that in some of those areas we are still a good example, and plenty who are envious of us having stable, local ownership. Malcom we will have to beg to differ , I don’t think I quote anything that’s factually incorrect , equally I have always been very specific local ownership and the patronage and commitment of our owners is beyond doubt , we owe a colossal debt to their unstinting support My view clearly different to yours I acknowledge and one I’ve stated for years is is they have been badly let down by the custodians they trusted to deliver their dream both on and off the field
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 8, 2019 23:48:04 GMT
Further to my previous posts, I think it would be perfectly legitimate business for the Supporters Council to ask the CEO ( who attends all SC meetings) to outline exactly what are the responsibilities and accountabilities of all the various people involved in player recruitment. Doing it face to face with supplementaries if necessary in the body set up for liaison with fans is the right way of doing it, IMHO, and I can't see why Tony S. would have a problem with that - the more so given that interviews have previously been given to the press on it. Of course he won't discuss individual's performance, including his own, in that setting, and neither should he, or details of individual transfers, but clarity on who is responsible for what would be helpful. All we have on here at the moment is far more heat than light, and huge amounts of speculation, assumption and a fair bit of personal abuse. Is mickstupp on the supporters council? If he isn't, have the supporters council raised this? I don't know who Mick is, so can't answer the first question. On the second, the topic has never surfaced in the minutes as far as I'm aware
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 8, 2019 23:53:01 GMT
Mr Cartwright claimed bauer as his own in the summer. I have no idea what spinks knows. I know fuck all other than what I see with my own eyes. There doesn't appear to have been much "working with the manager" going on given that pulis, Hughes and rowett each hated him. Complete conjecture on your part there. How on earth do you know any of that? So he helped the manager with McLean, Afobe and ince did he? Acted to give bauer a new contract with input from the manager? Bought etebo to the club in conjunction with the manager.
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 8, 2019 23:54:31 GMT
Complete conjecture on your part there. How on earth do you know any of that? So he helped the manager with McLean, Afobe and ince did he? Acted to give bauer a new contract with input from the manager? Bought etebo to the club in conjunction with the manager. Yes - but the final say is with the manager No - don’t think he deals with contracts Don’t know re Etebo
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 8, 2019 23:55:44 GMT
So he helped the manager with McLean, Afobe and ince did he? Acted to give bauer a new contract with input from the manager? Bought etebo to the club in conjunction with the manager. Yes No Don’t know Let's hope hes got his new managerial appointment right then eh?
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Post by ibby on Jan 8, 2019 23:56:46 GMT
Both can go now and ifs it Nathan Jones for the job god help them more.
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 8, 2019 23:57:08 GMT
Let's hope hes got his new managerial appointment right then eh? Who? Do you think Cartwright will have any say in that decision?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 9, 2019 0:02:46 GMT
Let's hope hes got his new managerial appointment right then eh? Who? Do you think Cartwright will have any say in that decision? Seems like it by all accounts. A mate of his from their time at Brighton together by all accounts.
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 9, 2019 0:04:06 GMT
Who? Do you think Cartwright will have any say in that decision? Seems like it by all accounts. A mate of his from their time at Brighton together by all accounts. All the accounts I’ve read have said that the decision will be made by the CEO, Peter and John Coates.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 9, 2019 0:08:00 GMT
Fuck me, the state of some the Scholes rimming on here. Some Stoke fans fully deserve the past three years we've had if we have another couple the same, it will be this Luton 'patsy for the process' who will take the hit. Is there anything this goon could do that would make you question his contribution? I'm not sure if that comment and question is directed at me ? If it is, it's not possible to give a sensible response to a post which is dismissive and insulting in tone without containing any substantive argument or information. If it's not aimed at me - apologies. Not just you Malcolm I think the comparisons with FTSE and other large companies are perfectly fair, reasonable and adequate. If the chief exec of Tesco falls down to 5th in the country then he's toast. So he faces exactly the same risks as a CEO in Football. It is without logic or reason (whatever the minutiae of the roles and responsibilities) that an organisation which has been subject to the three years of abject failure that Stoke City has, would not review the positions senior executives. It's almost without precedence. I'm afraid free bus rides and a bi-monthly talking shop doesn't really cut the mustard with me!
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Post by A-teen_six_T3 on Jan 9, 2019 0:09:51 GMT
Nothing will change at Stoke as long as Cartwright and Scholes are in a job. On the field I think we can cope with Scholes still in a job. However we wont improve if Cartwright stays. If we want to improve off the field we need to get rid of Scholes
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Post by stokeramblers on Jan 9, 2019 0:12:17 GMT
Who? Do you think Cartwright will have any say in that decision? Seems like it by all accounts. A mate of his from their time at Brighton together by all accounts. Mates or just happened to be in the same squad for a year..? Have we had it confirmed that they’re good chums or is it speculation?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 9, 2019 0:14:39 GMT
Seems like it by all accounts. A mate of his from their time at Brighton together by all accounts. Mates or just happened to be in the same squad for a year..? Have we had it confirmed that they’re good chums or is it speculation? Some of the twitterati claim it to be so. You telling me carto played for Brighton? I thought the pinnacle of his career was leek town?
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Post by mickstupp on Jan 9, 2019 0:14:56 GMT
Seems like it by all accounts. A mate of his from their time at Brighton together by all accounts. Mates or just happened to be in the same squad for a year..? Have we had it confirmed that they’re good chums or is it speculation? It’s more conjecture. The technical director will have no say in the appointment of the new manager.
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Post by stokeramblers on Jan 9, 2019 0:28:01 GMT
Mates or just happened to be in the same squad for a year..? Have we had it confirmed that they’re good chums or is it speculation? Some of the twitterati claim it to be so. You telling me carto played for Brighton? I thought the pinnacle of his career was leek town? Oh so Cartwright was in his technical whatever the fuck it is role then...not playing..? I see! So it’d be odd having a player being mates and all pally with someone in the hierarchy 🤷♂️🤔 I’d research it but what does it matter
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Post by onefatcopper on Jan 9, 2019 1:26:04 GMT
That was the August edition, it was preceded by the Earlier spring & early summer editions ! All by that intrepid reporter Mr Spinks, each with a slight variation so as not to put a repetitive strain on his keypad finger.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 9, 2019 1:31:51 GMT
“In my role as Technical Director at Stoke City, an average day will start with an informal chat with the manager, discuss how the players have performed, how they are training, the upcoming game for example, then plenty of phone calls from agents throughout the day. I will also have several chats with our CEO about the plans for the future and what is needed to be done now in order to get a head start for the next transfer window.
I will meet with my team of scouts to discuss various positions and targets and whilst they are out travelling every weekend and during the week watching games, I am more specific and only go to watch games where there are potential 1st team players to make decisions on. There is a lot of information gathering and due diligence to keep me nice and busy!
Basically the biggest part of my job is the identifying and then the buying and selling any of the players that come into Stoke City from age 12 through to the first team.” .....from the horses mouth, so to speak.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 9, 2019 1:36:39 GMT
Some of the twitterati claim it to be so. You telling me carto played for Brighton? I thought the pinnacle of his career was leek town? Oh so Cartwright was in his technical whatever the fuck it is role then...not playing..? I see! So it’d be odd having a player being mates and all pally with someone in the hierarchy 🤷♂️🤔 I’d research it but what does it matter He played 13 games for Brighton, but left the year after Jones arrived.
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Post by onefatcopper on Jan 9, 2019 1:46:41 GMT
So you believe everything you read then? Particularly from a local media outlet that wouldn't dare raise anything controversial about our club? I was kind of hoping you might share your knowledge on the matter. Further to my previous posts, I think it would be perfectly legitimate business for the Supporters Council to ask the CEO ( who attends all SC meetings) to outline exactly what are the responsibilities and accountabilities of all the various people involved in player recruitment. Doing it face to face with supplementaries if necessary in the body set up for liaison with fans is the right way of doing it, IMHO, and I can't see why Tony S. would have a problem with that - the more so given that interviews have previously been given to the press on it. Of course he won't discuss individual's performance, including his own, in that setting, and neither should he, or details of individual transfers, but clarity on who is responsible for what would be helpful. All we have on here at the moment is far more heat than light, and huge amounts of speculation, assumption and a fair bit of personal abuse. Don’t you think that the club is it’s own worst enemy ? As fans of course we are interested in team selection,managers analysis of matches and results etc, but we are also interested and concerned about how the club as a whole is performing ! The veil of secrecy that surrounds the club encourages rumours and fake news, and it is also part of the reason that the fans are feeling disconnected. The owners (Coates family/ Bet365) should remember that they are the temporary custodians of the club, the fans are the real owners .
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Post by onefatcopper on Jan 9, 2019 2:03:24 GMT
I know he signed 2 players when we had no manager which kind of makes a mockery of that sentinel article. I also know he signed 2 players at the start of his tenure without the support of the then manager which again makes a mockery of that sentinel article. We also know that contact extensions were handed out to players the manager didn't want which again makes a mockery of that sentinel article. Given your assertion and the holier than thou attitude that oozed out of your statement I was hoping you'd come up with a lite more than spinks article as your evidence to be fair. You answered my question anyhow so thanks for that. So to confirm, you think you know better than Martin Spinks when it comes to the day to day role of our technical director? Bauer was a Hughes signing and officially signed on the day he was sacked. Badou was sanctioned by Hughes and got the nod from Lambert who had been the manager for two weeks when he arrived. Who’s “holier than thou”? The recruitment has been disastrous at times, no one can doubt that. I just don’t think that the blame is necessarily being apportioned correctly. It’s clear to me that the manager has final say on transfers and contract extensions (the only possible exception to this I would say is Etebo). The technical directors job is to work with the manager and find a list of players who fit his requirements within the financial framework provided by the CEO. Kevin Wimmer could very easily have been Harry Maguire. Josh Tymon could have been Robertson. It’s not the fault of Cartwright that it turned out differently. Martin Spinks idea of investigative journalism is to open the Oatcake forum then to choose which snippets that he can use on the rehash of the previous days/weeks or months stories ! It’s embarrassing sometimes to read more or less word for word extracts from fans posts ? Allegedly.
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