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Post by thevoid on Nov 18, 2018 20:09:36 GMT
And now that the LGBT community have more rights and a bigger platform than ever, such stunts are superfluous. Since when does having more legal rights than before mean that's it? They're still abused, discriminated against and demonised in several areas of society. It's not a stunt to raise awareness of something that is still a problem. Oh I agree, there are certain sections of society where they are demonised. You're right there.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2018 20:22:55 GMT
Since when does having more legal rights than before mean that's it? They're still abused, discriminated against and demonised in several areas of society. It's not a stunt to raise awareness of something that is still a problem. Oh I agree, there are certain sections of society wgere they are demonised. You're right there. There you go. In football there have always been issues with homophobic chanting etc. which gives proof as to why this is needed.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 18, 2018 20:26:49 GMT
Since when does having more legal rights than before mean that's it? They're still abused, discriminated against and demonised in several areas of society. It's not a stunt to raise awareness of something that is still a problem. Oh I agree, there are certain sections of society wgere they are demonised. You're right there. I know what you meant.
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Post by felonious on Nov 18, 2018 21:33:45 GMT
Perhaps I move in the wrong circles because I don't hear or see any of the abuse referred to in the article. What's interesting is how these people are identified by the morons abusing them. I would imagine there's no way of identifying a homosexual or a lesbian down at the Bet 365. I do remember in the old days meeting up with a few lesbians in the Boothen either before the game or at half time in the days where no one wanted to be identified as LGBT. These days I haven't spoken to anyone in this category who has this problem except for the young on occasions before coming out mainly because of parents but even in those occasions it was down to misplaced fear.
I don't even know any old people who give a shit, even the older generation has been on message for years.
Could the article be down to the sample, the recent education about reporting hate crimes, the propensity of the police to take it more seriously, the organisation who instigated the survey?
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Post by philm87 on Nov 19, 2018 12:34:07 GMT
Is the poppy virtue signalling? Do you think that is ridiculous? As far as I can see, either both are pointless virtue signalling or neither of them are. I meant making a big thing out of whatever you do is ridiculous,not wearing the laces or whatever else. I just don't like this culture of "Look at me, I really care" that goes on lately. We made a really, really big thing out of remembering all the war dead. A massive thing. We make everyone in the country shut up for an entire minute at the same time, make people wear paper flowers on their clothes and then shout abuse at them if they refuse to comply. I'm fine with that, but it perfectly fits your definition of virtue signalling, it just happens to be something you like and agree with. In contrast, the laces campaign is a pretty low key minor affair, but we get to listen to loads of hypocrites banging on about virtue signalling and snowflakes. Personally, I don't particularly like either campaign. You can't have it both ways though.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 19, 2018 12:51:04 GMT
I meant making a big thing out of whatever you do is ridiculous,not wearing the laces or whatever else. I just don't like this culture of "Look at me, I really care" that goes on lately. We made a really, really big thing out of remembering all the war dead. A massive thing. We make everyone in the country shut up for an entire minute at the same time, make people wear paper flowers on their clothes and then shout abuse at them if they refuse to comply. I'm fine with that, but it perfectly fits your definition of virtue signalling, it just happens to be something you like and agree with. In contrast, the laces campaign is a pretty low key minor affair, but we get to listen to loads of hypocrites banging on about virtue signalling and snowflakes. Personally, I don't particularly like either campaign. You can't have it both ways though. I agree. I am no hypocrite, I think some of the poppy debate crosses the line, too. It's not the act in either case, it's the people who insist everyone should feel and express their feelings in the same way, I refer to.
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Post by philm87 on Nov 19, 2018 12:51:55 GMT
When I said them I was referring to people like you. I totally get the sentiment about virtue signalling, but to react strongly enough that you would feel it necessary to start a thread on an online messageboard protesting against the campaign sort of suggests it has ruffled your feathers a bit? I suspect a lot of it is pointless, but would be good if there was just some way everyone showing their solidarity with gay people, given that football appears to be about 30 years behind the rest of society? If that were not the case, why have not footballers come out yet and why has the head of the FA warned them against doing so? To deny football has an issue with this is just absurd when you look at the facts. Gay people might have a 'bigger platform' in society in general, but that is clearly not the case in football, hence the idea behind this campaign. I don't profess to know what motivates gay people and as a straight person I wouldn't claim to speak on their behalf. However, if some of them felt uncomfortable being in an atmosphere where homophobic insults were thrown around left right and centre, then whom I am to call them a 'snowflake' for that? It is hard to complain about the 'here we go again' comments when you are the one orchestrating them. You have a choice. You can either sigh to yourself because you think it is all pointless and has been hijacked by rich corporate outfits who don't really care, join in and try and show solidarity with the original principles behind the campaign, or else moan about it publicly and try to work against it. Maybe the campaign will have no effect at all, but I am pretty sure people like you constantly creating negative vibes around it won't help the cause at all? And if, as you say, you are genuinely not bothered about this issue, why not just shut up about it? Kindly expand upon 'people like you' if you can mate- it's a little ambiguous and suggests aggression towards someone who has a different viewpoint to your own. You say it's 'ruffled my feathers' Phil, all I've done is copied a link from the official app, posted a couple of paragraphs and let people 'run with it' (at the risk of sounding like Mark from Peep Show). What I haven't done is compiled a short essay such as your last post, which I will read properly tomorrow when I'm 'compos mentis'. I appreciate your input, although you do seem to be edging towards 'passive aggressive' a bit. And let's be honest, a thread on a messageboard isn't going to affect the campaign one iota, so where's the harm in discussing the issue as adults on a forum? There's a campaign to try and reduce the stigma against homosexuals in football. I don't agree with it as a strategy, but it doesn't really bother me and I certainly support the principles behind the campaign and understand the reasons it has come about. You post on a public forum a thread instantly dismissing, denouncing and belittling that campaign and when someone challenges you ... and you act like you are concerned I might be being passive aggressive? I think you are wrong about what affects things. If I was gay, I would read some of the shit on here and think we still had a long way to go. If you can't see that, it just proves the point further. Reading comments like 'I used to like it when gays were tough' just shows how thick and backward some people still are. You talk about the 'LGBT community' as if it is collective entity worthy of your jealousy (apparently because they have more rights than us?). All I can say is that I am glad I am not gay because in your eyes, and clearly the eyes of others on this thread, I would be guilty by association. And if that is not what you meant, then I would suggest that it is you that is being ambiguous and that I would forgive any person who interpreted it that way. Of course, this is just the Oatcake messageboard and so yeah, in the grand scheme of things, it won't make a massive difference. But that is like me allowing my dog to shit all over the pavement because a little bit more of it won't make a difference. I'd still be leaving shit everywhere, just like you are. If that metaphor sounds aggressive or hurts your feelings, then you should take the advice of some of the more wise homophobes on this thread, who warn against 'snowflakes' and 'homogeneity'. I am just trying to keep things nice and edgy for them You also cannot retreat behind the idea of 'adult' conversation. The original thread title - which you have now changed I presumed - was 'Rainbore laces'. If you wanted an adult conversation, that's hardly a sensible way to start one. I'm happy doing banter or informative debate, but you can't keep skipping between the two as and when it suits your argument.
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Post by philm87 on Nov 19, 2018 12:57:04 GMT
We made a really, really big thing out of remembering all the war dead. A massive thing. We make everyone in the country shut up for an entire minute at the same time, make people wear paper flowers on their clothes and then shout abuse at them if they refuse to comply. I'm fine with that, but it perfectly fits your definition of virtue signalling, it just happens to be something you like and agree with. In contrast, the laces campaign is a pretty low key minor affair, but we get to listen to loads of hypocrites banging on about virtue signalling and snowflakes. Personally, I don't particularly like either campaign. You can't have it both ways though. I agree. I am no hypocrite, I think some of the poppy debate crosses the line, too. It's not the act in either case, it's the people who insist everyone should feel and express their feelings in the same way, I refer to. I can find you people who insist we should express our feeling the same way with regard to things like remembrance. I cannot find the equivalent for something like the laces campaign though? Nobody is forcing us to do anything and nobody is insisting we express particular feelings a certain way.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 19, 2018 13:09:38 GMT
I agree. I am no hypocrite, I think some of the poppy debate crosses the line, too. It's not the act in either case, it's the people who insist everyone should feel and express their feelings in the same way, I refer to. I can find you people who insist we should express our feeling the same way with regard to things like remembrance. I cannot find the equivalent for something like the laces campaign though? Nobody is forcing us to do anything and nobody is insisting we express particular feelings a certain way. There is none of that in the gay community? Have you heard of Owen Jones? I think Bath's comment was tongue in cheek, but if not, hasn't he got a point? I know quite a few gay people who don't feel the need to make a big deal of it. As someone said earlier, any form of discrimination is wrong, I thought that went without saying. It gets a bit like the only gay in the village sketch, in my opinion, if you constantly bang on about it. If you think that makes me a raging homophobe, that's up to you.
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Post by thevoid on Nov 19, 2018 13:19:25 GMT
I can find you people who insist we should express our feeling the same way with regard to things like remembrance. I cannot find the equivalent for something like the laces campaign though? Nobody is forcing us to do anything and nobody is insisting we express particular feelings a certain way. There is none of that in the gay community? Have you heard of Owen Jones? I think Bath's comment was tongue in cheek, but if not, hasn't he got a point? I know quite a few gay people who don't feel the need to make a big deal of it. As someone said earlier, any form of discrimination is wrong, I thought that went without saying. It gets a bit like the only gay in the village sketch, in my opinion, if you constantly bang on about it. If you think that makes me a raging homophobe, that's up to you. I think he just wants an argument. Which is fine as long as his posts don't start coming across a some sort of lengthy 'Cliffs Notes' analytical breakdown as, quite frankly, I haven't got the time for all that 😎
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Post by philm87 on Nov 19, 2018 14:54:30 GMT
I can find you people who insist we should express our feeling the same way with regard to things like remembrance. I cannot find the equivalent for something like the laces campaign though? Nobody is forcing us to do anything and nobody is insisting we express particular feelings a certain way. There is none of that in the gay community? Have you heard of Owen Jones? I think Bath's comment was tongue in cheek, but if not, hasn't he got a point? I know quite a few gay people who don't feel the need to make a big deal of it. As someone said earlier, any form of discrimination is wrong, I thought that went without saying. It gets a bit like the only gay in the village sketch, in my opinion, if you constantly bang on about it. If you think that makes me a raging homophobe, that's up to you. Well I suppose it's up to them whether they make a big deal of it. Most of the gay people I know would probably be pretty indifferent toward a campaign like this. Yet if some of them do feel its a good idea, who am I to tell them to stop banging on about it? Until we get to the stage where we are no longer shouting homophobic stuff on the terraces, where every discussion of this isn't full of homophobic 'banter' and brain dead neanderthals moaning about 'snowflakes' and various unrelated topic, and where gay players can come out publicly, I think they have a point. And in fairness, it hardly constitutes 'banging on' about it does it? It's something that has come about quite recently and happens once a year. Probably, a lot of them might shy away from saying anything about it because as soon as they do, people will tell them to shut up, bore off, stop telling us what to do, stop being snowflakes etc... which is what the OP was doing and most of the people on this thread? Who knows what gay people privately think? As for Owen Jones, when has he insisted on us expressing our views on this in a particular way? And he is hardly an example of someone 'banging on' about the discrimination faced by gay people, given he hardly ever talks about it despite writing a weekly column for a major national newspaper and having his own YouTube channel. I agree with you on the campaign. But at the same time, what exactly is the alternative? What are we doing instead? And no I don't think you are a raging homophobe, but I do think some of might be collectively creating an atmosphere in which some gay people might feel unwelcome. That's not because they are precious or because 'you can't say anything nowadays'. It's because some people are still cunts And I am not including you in that category, not intending to imply you are a homophobe. I am just pointing out that it might not always be as straight forward as our knee jerks reactions on here.
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Post by philm87 on Nov 19, 2018 14:58:20 GMT
There is none of that in the gay community? Have you heard of Owen Jones? I think Bath's comment was tongue in cheek, but if not, hasn't he got a point? I know quite a few gay people who don't feel the need to make a big deal of it. As someone said earlier, any form of discrimination is wrong, I thought that went without saying. It gets a bit like the only gay in the village sketch, in my opinion, if you constantly bang on about it. If you think that makes me a raging homophobe, that's up to you. I think he just wants an argument. Which is fine as long as his posts don't start coming across a some sort of lengthy 'Cliffs Notes' analytical breakdown as, quite frankly, I haven't got the time for all that 😎 I understand if you don't have time mate, those witty thread titles won't write themselves.
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