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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 12:50:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 12:50:06 GMT
Exactly. Well said. And does anyone genuinely believe that if Saido does suddenly become our super star he won’t sod off the minute a “bigger” club come in for him...
Out of interest, what does that have to do with anything re: Bojan negotiating with Red Star?
It's what pretty much any player would do, even Stoke stalwarts like Ryan would be gone if a big club came in for him but it has sod all whatsoever to do with this thread does it?
It was to the point being made in the comment I was responding to. Appreciate your comment but he’s tried to force moves before (at West Brom) which is slightly different. Anywho I can see I am drifting off topic and do not mean to cause an offence 😂
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 12:53:27 GMT
Ultimately, I find it hard to believe that Saido Berahino, who, up until a few weeks ago, was widely regarded as one of the shittest signings we've ever made, who was a thick, fat, druggie, love-rat waster, who didn't give a shit about the club, the fans, football, himself, is now being applauded after running around for a bit and scoring a jammy goal, whilst people are deriding Bojan and saying he's a lost cause, based on him not regaining form that was frankly too good for SCFC, whilst also being denied the opportunities that would enable him to potentially replicate that form.
He's had those opportunities at other clubs over the last 2 years. They didn't think much of him either..coincidence?
You don't know that. At Alaves the first manager, who signed him, stated he was a Bojan fan. But he just wasn't able to fit Bojan into a team that was fighting relegation.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 12:54:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 12:54:01 GMT
I feel like you are arguing with me for the sake of it now and I'm not sure why as you said you'd like to keep him also. Look back through the conversation, I said I wasn't 100% sure but since that West Brom game off the back of our excellent Christmas period (Jan 2016) I don't think he has started more than 2 games for Stoke - which I would constitute a run. Coincidentally, your point about Berahino backs up mine. He has had a 'run' of 3 starts and what do you know? Even the most mocked player in recent times looks like he could come good. Your point also makes no sense - Bojan has started one game against Brentford, subbed and then dropped when he was our best player, so the comparison is a bit strange. Bojan has started more than two games since Jan 2016. That's my point. I'm fine with him starting this season, I don't buy the people's princess stuff that he's the victim of a dreadful, multi-manager conspiracy since then spanning three different countries. Mate, he has not started more than two games on a bounce. That is the issue.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 12:55:49 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 12:55:49 GMT
As discussed: Okay game Good game Dropped Okay game Good game Dropped Confidence destroyed Loaned Unable to break into first team Ignored Confidence destroyed Loaned Unable to break into first team Cameo Dropped Start Early sub Dropped Fans and managers seem to want him to be Barcelona Superstar straight away and when he's not, they fuck him off.
That's bollocks mate, i'm sorry.
I think you'd probably find that most on here would be happy to see him stay and see him given a chance but that isn't our decision is it? If the manager doesn't deem him to fit into his plans as a regular starter (and this makes Rowett at least the 5th in the last 2 years or so to think that as Lambert saw no need to recall him in January), we're simply being realistic about what is the best option for the club and the player, especially if the player wants an opportunity to play for a Champs league club and instead of basing our ideas on days long gone, actually looking at what's happened over the last couple of years.
Genuine question, do you think Hughes, Lambert, Rowett, Schwarz and Fernandez just had it in for him for no apparent reason or do you think they may have based their decisions not to play him regularly on a bit more than that?
Lambert vetoed bringing Bojan back from his loan even though it was offered to him, so you can't state that he did not play Boj "regularly."
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 12:56:10 GMT
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Post by gibby1409 on Aug 31, 2018 12:56:10 GMT
Had a great run before his injury and looked good. Similar through December 2015 when we played some great stuff. Done nothing of note since then though. Lovely lad, who will.always be popular, but we have to face fact's that he's just not going to be an effective player nowadays. Hope the move works out for him, and I'll always be grateful for that fantastic, if small period of play through December 2015 😊 Get your facts right. He's been needlessly neglected. We might not see what goes on in training but he has been the best finisher at the club for two years still and remains that now. All facts pal. I think you need to take your rose tinted glasses off tho 😉
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 12:57:54 GMT
Post by johnnysoul60 on Aug 31, 2018 12:57:54 GMT
From the bits I've seen from him so far , he looks sharper than I have thought for a while so I think he might be ok in this league .
I don't think that Rowett especially rates him that highly so if he does go Id wish him all the best , guess he could be a huge star in Belgrade
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 12:58:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by rawli on Aug 31, 2018 12:58:35 GMT
Sorry he's going, love him as a player but we need to cut the wage bill. Why? We're not exactly short of money. I had my doubts, but I think it's been established that everyone has a relegation clause in their contracts. Because we've got a lot less than we had last year. If the manager has doubts then it makes sense to the club to reduce at least a portion of the wage bill. I'd much rather keep him.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:01:12 GMT
Post by mickmillslovechild on Aug 31, 2018 13:01:12 GMT
He's had those opportunities at other clubs over the last 2 years. They didn't think much of him either..coincidence?
You don't know that. At Alaves the first manager, who signed him, stated he was a Bojan fan. But he just wasn't able to fit Bojan into a team that was fighting relegation.
So why take him on loan then? No-one forced him to and if he didn't fit into a team fighting relegation then why were some on here desperate for him last year...y'know when we were fighting relegation! In fact, why would any manager want any player if they're only able to play if the team happen to be winning week in, week out and don't need to fight for points?
As Rob has said already, the facts are that he didn't do much for us apart from a few decent games post-injury so we sent him on loan twice. Neither of those clubs played him regularly either, all people like yourself seem to be doing is coming up with excuses as to why that might have been based on well, literally nothing other than your own imaginations.
I'd rather he stayed here as well to at least be given a chance, but if you're basing it on actual evidence and fact (not just excuses made for him dragged out of thin air based on absolutely nothing whatsoever) then i really don't see why people are crying about it so much. Pre-injury Bojan yes, would understand the uproar, but post-injury Bojan has done literally nothing since for 3 different clubs!
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Post by FullerMagic on Aug 31, 2018 13:04:52 GMT
He seems to be training if these are from today
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:05:23 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 13:05:23 GMT
Why? We're not exactly short of money. I had my doubts, but I think it's been established that everyone has a relegation clause in their contracts. Because we've got a lot less than we had last year. If the manager has doubts then it makes sense to the club to reduce at least a portion of the wage bill. I'd much rather keep him. We haven't exactly been miserly with the transfer fees we've paid this season nor in bringing players who are only covers.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:05:25 GMT
Post by mickmillslovechild on Aug 31, 2018 13:05:25 GMT
That's bollocks mate, i'm sorry.
I think you'd probably find that most on here would be happy to see him stay and see him given a chance but that isn't our decision is it? If the manager doesn't deem him to fit into his plans as a regular starter (and this makes Rowett at least the 5th in the last 2 years or so to think that as Lambert saw no need to recall him in January), we're simply being realistic about what is the best option for the club and the player, especially if the player wants an opportunity to play for a Champs league club and instead of basing our ideas on days long gone, actually looking at what's happened over the last couple of years.
Genuine question, do you think Hughes, Lambert, Rowett, Schwarz and Fernandez just had it in for him for no apparent reason or do you think they may have based their decisions not to play him regularly on a bit more than that?
Lambert vetoed bringing Bojan back from his loan even though it was offered to him, so you can't state that he did not play Boj "regularly."
No you're quite right....he didn't even want him back at the club when he had the chance, so you're actually just emphasising the point i made in the main paragraph for me. Thanks
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Post by toppercorner on Aug 31, 2018 13:08:01 GMT
He seems to be training if these are from today Lock the gates. Don't let him leave today.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:08:01 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 13:08:01 GMT
You don't know that. At Alaves the first manager, who signed him, stated he was a Bojan fan. But he just wasn't able to fit Bojan into a team that was fighting relegation.
So why take him on loan then? No-one forced him to and if he didn't fit into a team fighting relegation then why were some on here desperate for him last year...y;know when we were fighting relegation!
As Rob has said already, the facts are that he didn't do much for us apart from a few decent games post-injury so we sent him on loan twice. Neither of those clubs played him regularly either, all people like yourself seem to be doing is coming up with excuses as to why that might have been based on well, literally nothing other than your own imaginations.
I'd rather he stayed here as well to at least be given a chance, but if you're basing it on actual evidence and fact (not just excuses made for him dragged out of thin air based on absolutely nothing whatsoever) then i really don't see why people are crying about it so much. Pre-injury Bojan yes, would understand the uproar but post-injury Bojan has done literally nothing since for 3 different clubs!
Get real! It's not as if Stoke or Alaves for that matter actually planned before the season to be fighting relegation.
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Post by TexasPotter on Aug 31, 2018 13:12:09 GMT
One of a few looking real good this pre season. Bafflingly the new norm. Hey Bojan is having a great preseason and looking lively Gary. GR: Fuck him off I want Lee Cattermole lol 😂
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:13:01 GMT
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 31, 2018 13:13:01 GMT
Bojan has started more than two games since Jan 2016. That's my point. I'm fine with him starting this season, I don't buy the people's princess stuff that he's the victim of a dreadful, multi-manager conspiracy since then spanning three different countries. Mate, he has not started more than two games on a bounce. That is the issue. He has though mate. He started three games on the bounce in April 2016.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:16:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 13:16:16 GMT
Mate, he has not started more than two games on a bounce. That is the issue. He has though mate. He started three games on the bounce in April 2016. Haha, come on, we are going round in circles. You know as well as I do that that isn't a fair reflection of what we are constituting as a fair run in the side. We'll leave it there and hope for the best, I think one thing our fans could all agree on is he's a great guy and we'd love to see him scoring goals for us this season.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:16:50 GMT
Post by Trouserdog on Aug 31, 2018 13:16:50 GMT
I'd like to see him and saido battling for the Number 10 spot in a 4-2-3-1. Think he's still got something to offer at this level.
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Post by jeycov on Aug 31, 2018 13:17:50 GMT
He seems to be training if these are from today Let’s hide him away until 17.01 😎
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Aug 31, 2018 13:18:24 GMT
So why take him on loan then? No-one forced him to and if he didn't fit into a team fighting relegation then why were some on here desperate for him last year...y;know when we were fighting relegation!
As Rob has said already, the facts are that he didn't do much for us apart from a few decent games post-injury so we sent him on loan twice. Neither of those clubs played him regularly either, all people like yourself seem to be doing is coming up with excuses as to why that might have been based on well, literally nothing other than your own imaginations.
I'd rather he stayed here as well to at least be given a chance, but if you're basing it on actual evidence and fact (not just excuses made for him dragged out of thin air based on absolutely nothing whatsoever) then i really don't see why people are crying about it so much. Pre-injury Bojan yes, would understand the uproar but post-injury Bojan has done literally nothing since for 3 different clubs!
Get real! It's not as if Stoke or Alaves for that matter actually planned before the season to be fighting relegation.
But what you're saying is that we should keep a player who is only capable of playing if we're doing well because if we're not he can't fit into anyone's plans?
You really think we can afford the luxury of players like that, especially when we're now in a league where fighting for points and battling is even more important and a far more regular occurrence (even if we're high in the table) than it was in the Prem? If so, i'd suggest it's you that needs to get real mate
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shimmer
Academy Starlet
Posts: 244
Location: Middle Earth
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:21:31 GMT
Post by shimmer on Aug 31, 2018 13:21:31 GMT
I think he will be involved throughout the season, sometimes from the bench. He cant start every game can he, we don't play total football, if it even exists. He needs to appreciate his game time and look to perform when necessary, not make up another 'this is my dream' story.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:21:41 GMT
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 31, 2018 13:21:41 GMT
He has though mate. He started three games on the bounce in April 2016. Haha, come on, we are going round in circles. You know as well as I do that that isn't a fair reflection of what we are constituting as a fair run in the side. We'll leave it there and hope for the best, I think one thing our fans could all agree on is he's a great guy and we'd love to see him scoring goals for us this season. You said 3-5 games didn't you? What's the new cut-off? I'd like him to get a chance in the no 10 role but I don't think he'd automatically be the best player in the side, let alone the league. He's a decent option to have as things stand. No more than that.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:22:52 GMT
Post by mickmillslovechild on Aug 31, 2018 13:22:52 GMT
He has though mate. He started three games on the bounce in April 2016. Haha, come on, we are going round in circles. You know as well as I do that that isn't a fair reflection of what we are constituting as a fair run in the side. We'll leave it there and hope for the best, I think one thing our fans could all agree on is he's a great guy and we'd love to see him scoring goals for us this season.
To be fair mate, only a page ago it was you that deemed more than 2 games as a run in the side wasn't it? Now it's been pointed out he's had that, you're now saying it isn't anymore?
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:24:00 GMT
Post by Pretty Little Boother on Aug 31, 2018 13:24:00 GMT
As discussed: Okay game Good game Dropped Okay game Good game Dropped Confidence destroyed Loaned Unable to break into first team Ignored Confidence destroyed Loaned Unable to break into first team Cameo Dropped Start Early sub Dropped Fans and managers seem to want him to be Barcelona Superstar straight away and when he's not, they fuck him off. That's bollocks mate, i'm sorry. I think you'd probably find that most on here would be happy to see him stay and see him given a chance but that isn't our decision is it? If the manager doesn't deem him to fit into his plans as a regular starter (and this makes Rowett at least the 5th in the last 2 years or so to think that as Lambert saw no need to recall him in January), we're simply being realistic about what is the best option for the club and the player, especially if the player wants an opportunity to play for a Champs league club and instead of basing our ideas on days long gone, actually looking at what's happened over the last couple of years. Genuine question, do you think Hughes, Lambert, Rowett, Schwarz and Fernandez just had it in for him for no apparent reason or do you think they may have based their decisions not to play him regularly on a bit more than that?
Ludicrous analogy and you know exactly why. Excellent! Pick one sentence out of the post and ignore the rest because you have no answer I'm not ignoring anything, you're asking me questions whose answers I have already discussed on this thread, meaning that I'm in a position that I'm repeating stuff I've said before you even came on the thread in the first place. I don't for one minute think any manager, apart from apparently Hughes, has anything against Bojan, let alone would go out of their way to sign him to keep him on the bench and drop him. I do think that Bojan is harshly judged, because of how stratospherically good he was before Rochdale. BMX with Bojan in the false 9 was ace, it didn't worm for one game, Hughes shat it and never played him in any meaningful capacity again. Hughes later opted for Allen who he saw as more defensively sound (debatable in hindsight) as well as being an attacking threat (purple patch in front of goal, not sustained, again in hindsight). This fucked up Bojan's confidence, understandably. He was playing well, working his way back up, and then was dumped like a sack of spuds, first with no real replacement (and then he's brought back and dropped on the manager's whim regardless of performance) and then in favour of the inferior Joe Allen. This would all be understandable if he warranted being dropped in the first place, but he didn't, it was after what is widely considered to have been the best quality of team football in decades. Low on confidence, he was farmed out on loan. Settling into a new club, new division etc meant he was unable to hit the ground running and the manager opted for his own players rather than the loanee who. Confidence takes a further knock, and then to top it off he has to do exactly the same at another loan club. Knocked back from pillar to post certainly will have have taken its toll on his confidence, which should be clear to anyone who read that article about his anxiety and pressure he feels at having to perform at 100%, 100% of the time. Now, this is obviously a problem but there are three things to consider here. 1. We have to accept his anxiety, because otherwise he wouldn't be at Stoke. 2. When his head is right, he is comfortably excellent. 3. The more he plays, the better he gets, the less he plays the worse he gets. 3. Is where the entire issue lies. I would say that SCFC cannot afford to be pissing about with not playing him. If he was offered the same opportunities as Berahino or Afobe or Crouch, then a few weeks down the line, he would be making this division his bitch, just lie he'd have fired us to safety last season. But, that is also what could be construed to be a weakness, just like I said earlier that you said was bollocks, in that managers expect him / require him to be hitting the ground straight away. For me, I'd rather give Bojan the run over Berahino, 100% sure in my conviction that Bojan will be better in the long term, and knowing that Bojan at his best would piss all over Berahino at his best, and knowing that, for me at least, Bojan deserves the chance more than Berahino for myriad reasons that I've already explained. This is all academic if Bojan wants to leave, but to say that a couple of unsuccessful loans must mean he's shit or past it is reductive and overly simplistic.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Aug 31, 2018 13:25:53 GMT
He's shown enough this season to be kept, with a few potentially game-changing moments in the small time he's played.
If it's a case of Rowett likes Bojan, but Bojan wants more first-team football and Champions League (which Rowett can guarantee neither of), I think Rowett should play hard and keep Bojan - putting the team first. Over the season he'll get games, and if Ince and Berahino are out at the same time we don't have the number 10 option. One of Hughes' failings was letting important players leave too easily when they couldn't be guaranteed first-team football - Huth, Walters and a couple of others.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:28:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 13:28:47 GMT
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:32:53 GMT
Post by chigstoke on Aug 31, 2018 13:32:53 GMT
He seems to be training if these are from today Serbian window also closes today. I'd be very surprised if he goes today, especially as he's trained. Then again, I didn't think Eidur Gudjonsson was going to go to anywhere on deadline day, then all of a sudden he was driving down to Craven Cottage hours later after saying 'I'm not going anywhere'.
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Bojan
Aug 31, 2018 13:35:50 GMT
Post by mickmillslovechild on Aug 31, 2018 13:35:50 GMT
I'm not ignoring anything, you're asking me questions whose answers I have already discussed on this thread, meaning that I'm in a position that I'm repeating stuff I've said before you even came on the thread in the first place. I don't for one minute think any manager, apart from apparently Hughes, has anything against Bojan, let alone would go out of their way to sign him to keep him on the bench and drop him. I do think that Bojan is harshly judged, because of how stratospherically good he was before Rochdale. BMX with Bojan in the false 9 was ace, it didn't worm for one game, Hughes shat it and never played him in any meaningful capacity again. Hughes later opted for Allen who he saw as more defensively sound (debatable in hindsight) as well as being an attacking threat (purple patch in front of goal, not sustained, again in hindsight). This fucked up Bojan's confidence, understandably. He was playing well, working his way back up, and then was dumped like a sack of spuds, first with no real replacement (and then he's brought back and dropped on the manager's whim regardless of performance) and then in favour of the inferior Joe Allen. This would all be understandable if he warranted being dropped in the first place, but he didn't, it was after what is widely considered to have been the best quality of team football in decades. Low on confidence, he was farmed out on loan. Settling into a new club, new division etc meant he was unable to hit the ground running and the manager opted for his own players rather than the loanee who. Confidence takes a further knock, and then to top it off he has to do exactly the same at another loan club. Knocked back from pillar to post certainly will have have taken its toll on his confidence, which should be clear to anyone who read that article about his anxiety and pressure he feels at having to perform at 100%, 100% of the time. Now, this is obviously a problem but there are three things to consider here. 1. We have to accept his anxiety, because otherwise he wouldn't be at Stoke. 2. When his head is right, he is comfortably excellent. 3. The more he plays, the better he gets, the less he plays the worse he gets. 3. Is where the entire issue lies. I would say that SCFC cannot afford to be pissing about with not playing him. If he was offered the same opportunities as Berahino or Afobe or Crouch, then a few weeks down the line, he would be making this division his bitch, just lie he'd have fired us to safety last season. But, that is also what could be construed to be a weakness, just like I said earlier that you said was bollocks, in that managers expect him / require him to be hitting the ground straight away. For me, I'd rather give Bojan the run over Berahino, 100% sure in my conviction that Bojan will be better in the long term, and knowing that Bojan at his best would piss all over Berahino at his best, and knowing that, for me at least, Bojan deserves the chance more than Berahino for myriad reasons that I've already explained. This is all academic if Bojan wants to leave, but to say that a couple of unsuccessful loans must mean he's shit or past it is reductive and overly simplistic.
(Only deleting previous comments you quoted so we don't take up the whole page )
For what it's worth, i agree that we should keep him but.........the problem with Bojan is that it could take 5-10 games (conservative estimate i'd say) to get him back to anything like what he once was and that's even if what he was is even still in his locker!
We really aren't in a position to be able to nurse players and cater to them like that. Yes, if he was played from the start every game from now until Christmas then eventually he may get back what we once saw, but by then where will be in the league due to carrying a player that wasn't up to it for the previous dozen games or so? THAT'S why teams use the loan system i.e. to get a player's form back without having it effect their own team's results.
Now, he may not have been played due to his confidence being destroyed by moving around etc. (and that is just speculation on anyone's part. I've seen Bojan talk about how he has ALWAYS had anxiety problems since he was young at Barca but nothing to say that managers constantly moving him around are to blame for it...just because someone has a condition of some sort doesn't mean you can automatically attribute every problem they have in the future to that condition, it's a false logic) or he may not have played due to not being good enough at various clubs...but the fact remains that HE HASN'T PLAYED REGULARLY FOR ANYONE FOR OVER 2 YEARS, therefore people saying he is good enough, he's the best player we have etc etc are basing it on NOTHING other than what he used to be! Not what he is now but what he used to be and the huge presumption that he's still just as good but it's everyone else's fault, but not having anything whatsoever to back that up with.
Am i happy if he goes? No, not really but i can 100% understand it as 1) he hasn't proved anything to anyone for over 2 years and 2) we are not in a position to be carrying players based on nothing other than blind hope.
Football isn't about keeping players due to sentiment mate, sorry it just isn't and neither should it be.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 13:43:47 GMT
Well, Gaz, I'm assuming that you've got some kind of 'masterplan' up your sleeve, if you're sanctioning this move.
You're putting your balls on the block with this one, big time. Don't think for a minute that Saido is some kind of replacement, he's not.
If you're looking for ways to make yourself unpopular, fair play to you, you're cracking on.
Remember, anything other than the Play Offs with that squad, it's your head on a stick.
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 31, 2018 13:52:32 GMT
I can't fucking bear repeatedly going through this at the beginning of every season.. the pre-season, the photos at Clayton Wood, the glimpses of his brilliance on the pitch, the hope, the chance things can be repaired and resurrected... until the inevitable day finally arrives and some bastard brute club with a vaguely recognisable name comes from some hostile corner of Europe to whisk him away again... fuck's sake
I'd really rather he just left us permanently than have this torturous, tantalising recurring dream of us having our old life back together every season.
And anyway aside from the sentimentality of it all, how on earth could anyone who's seen our games this season be alright with letting one of our relatively few decent attacking options go on the last day of the window? What the fuck is the point of that?
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 31, 2018 13:54:58 GMT
the problem with Bojan is that it could take 5-10 games (conservative estimate i'd say) to get him back to anything like what he once was and that's even if what he was is even still in his locker! We really aren't in a position to be able to nurse players and cater to them like that. Yes, if he was played from the start every game from now until Christmas then eventually he may get back what we once saw, but by then where will be in the league due to carrying a player that wasn't up to it for the previous dozen games or so? He's already been good, and sharp, *this season* when on the pitch.
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