|
Post by thevoid on Nov 29, 2017 16:20:42 GMT
I remember it, game management mode for over an hour very similar to a 1-0 win against Watford sent you home thinking well at least it didn't blow up in his face this time another pretty horrible boring performance with no feelgood factor other than 3 pts that is what it has become under him. That wasn't what you said though, you said you have to go back nearly two years for a decent run of form and I'm simply saying you don't have to...... Just the one year then. Would you have kept Brian Little on for the run he had in his first 9 games?
|
|
|
Post by leoncort on Nov 29, 2017 16:24:49 GMT
You've supported my argument? Liverpool have scored more than Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal yet sit below them? so how will a striker help them out? they need a solid base. If you need me to explain again, we've outscored Burnley, Brighton, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Southampton, Newcastle yet sit below them all in the table because we cant' defend for shit? if you dont concede the least you're getting is a point and right now thats what we'd take. He hasn't supported your argument at all and nobody has mentioned them getting a striker. As I've argued above in a more detailed way if we could become a more effective team going forward a team like us who is not under pressure to win silverware could cope with a flaky defense like Liverpool's. Being on the front foot more would make the defense less liable to make mistakes. We'd play more in the other half of the pitch and should score more goals and win more games plus and its a big plus our games would be more enjoyable which is worth 3 or 4 places in the league in itself. Its essentially what Hughes did here for two and a half seasons, its not some pie in the sky made up bollocks. But we're the 3rd most effective team going forward outside of the top 6?? we're scoring goals that clearly isnt the problem!! The problem is we're soft as shit at the back and fans would be happy/entertained if we wern't conceding goals and were seeing out games 2-0..
|
|
|
Post by raythesailor on Nov 29, 2017 16:25:26 GMT
I keep seeing people suggesting 4-4-2; is there anything more to this than people just liking traditional 'hoof, up and at em' type football? We (justifiably) complain that we don't have the right personnel to play the system we've adopted yet recommend another that is just as unsuitable. That's not to mention that the whole league has moved on from it and yet we have fans clamouring for us to take a massive step backwards. You just have to accept that many of our fans are thick as mince and live in the past. Sorry that is a overgeneralisation and a somewhat cheap shot at people who have a point of view, that you may or may not agree with. informed debate should be encouraged, and rude comments such as this add nothing constructive to the discussion.
|
|
|
Post by RAF on Nov 29, 2017 16:26:14 GMT
Liverpools defence is fucking shocking. Very easy to justify. H You've supported my argument? Liverpool have scored more than Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal yet sit below them? so how will a striker help them out? they need a solid base. If you need me to explain again, we've outscored Burnley, Brighton, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Southampton, Newcastle yet sit below them all in the table because we cant' defend for shit? if you dont concede the least you're getting is a point and right now thats what we'd take. I've supported no such thing. You originally said you don't win games by conceding 2 goals, I said you do if you score 3. I reckon at the moment Liverpool would probably beat all those above bar Man City, purely down to the amount of goals they score not their defence. We shall see at the end of the season I suppose but we are in desperate need if a striker who is on fire. Our missed chances alone prove that. H
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2017 16:29:33 GMT
I keep seeing people suggesting 4-4-2; is there anything more to this than people just liking traditional 'hoof, up and at em' type football? We (justifiably) complain that we don't have the right personnel to play the system we've adopted yet recommend another that is just as unsuitable. That's not to mention that the whole league has moved on from it and yet we have fans clamouring for us to take a massive step backwards. You just have to accept that many of our fans are thick as mince and live in the past. I'm certainly not wishing to cast aspersions on my fellow Stokies, but I just can't fathom how - using the squad of players we have - a 4-4-2 formation would be a good one for us to use. Even putting aside the limitations it would lumber us with playing against other teams with a more fluid attacking system, I just don't see how we would be remotely good proponents of it. Leicester were extremely successful with it, but that's because their first XI knew their roles inside out and were incredibly good at performing each and every position to near perfection. If I were to try and shoehorn our squad into playing a 4-4-2 system, this is honestly the best I could come up with (and it looks absolutely horrid to my mind): Butland Edwards - Ryan - BMI - Pieters Shaq - Zouma - Allen - Sobhi Choupo - Diouf There are so many limitations with that I just think we'd be setting ourselves up for a fall.
|
|
|
Post by alster on Nov 29, 2017 16:32:16 GMT
Yes we are scoring more but we are also trying to sit in and soak up too much pressure and play on the break. To do that you need a very solid defensive unit and pacy forwards we have neither. I'm amazed we've scored as many as we have we look clueless as an attacking unit. Unless you get a bit of magic from Shaq we're awful to watch` Yes I agree that when we take the lead, we become too safety first and try to just hold on rather than pushing on for a 2nd or 3rd. But I think that is just a natural consequence to a poor run of results. If we were in a more comfortable league position where the consequence of losing wasn't so great then we would probably look to commit more to attack. No its not just after we take the lead. As a side from the start we are sitting quite deep and not committing many bodies forward for the last four games Ramadan has been named as a forward yet predominantly spent most his time defending in his own half. Neither of the central midfields get forward to any effect which leaves only Choupo a winger/wide forward trying to play as the focal point of the attack badly and Shaq dedicated to attack assisted by Diouf trying to fulfill the attacking brief of a wing back but pretty poorly, he just shouldn't play wide either as a wingback or a wide forward he's too poor on the ball. try to put aside the raw statistics of goals scored and conceded we are allowing teams to be territorially dominant which is not a clever thing to do when you have defenders with inherent weakness and prone to individual errors. Add to that we have no real pace when attacking on the break so in short its an absolute shit show.
|
|
|
Post by leoncort on Nov 29, 2017 16:35:58 GMT
You've supported my argument? Liverpool have scored more than Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal yet sit below them? so how will a striker help them out? they need a solid base. If you need me to explain again, we've outscored Burnley, Brighton, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Southampton, Newcastle yet sit below them all in the table because we cant' defend for shit? if you dont concede the least you're getting is a point and right now thats what we'd take. I've supported no such thing. You originally said you don't win games by conceding 2 goals, I said you do if you score 3. I reckon at the moment Liverpool would probably beat all those above bar Man City, purely down to the amount of goals they score not their defence. We shall see at the end of the season I suppose but we are in desperate need if a striker who is on fire. Our missed chances alone prove that. H They've scored 3 at Watford and drawn? They scored 3 at Sevilla and drew? Everyone is in desperate need of a striker on fire, but its pointless if you're defence are conceding 2 a game because even if he was on fire every game i doubt he'd have scored a hatrick a game after 13 games. Its a team game at the end of the day and defence and attack need to be firing to win football matches. Some days you can get a point if your defence is firing but attack isnt and visa versa. Anyway, we probably won't agree but whatever happens we need to get behind the lads tonight theyre bereft of any confidence and could do with it.
|
|
|
Post by alster on Nov 29, 2017 16:41:50 GMT
He hasn't supported your argument at all and nobody has mentioned them getting a striker. As I've argued above in a more detailed way if we could become a more effective team going forward a team like us who is not under pressure to win silverware could cope with a flaky defense like Liverpool's. Being on the front foot more would make the defense less liable to make mistakes. We'd play more in the other half of the pitch and should score more goals and win more games plus and its a big plus our games would be more enjoyable which is worth 3 or 4 places in the league in itself. Its essentially what Hughes did here for two and a half seasons, its not some pie in the sky made up bollocks. But we're the 3rd most effective team going forward outside of the top 6?? we're scoring goals that clearly isnt the problem!! The problem is we're soft as shit at the back and fans would be happy/entertained if we wern't conceding goals and were seeing out games 2-0.. You aren't taking into account the fact that we are setting up to concede territory and have our defense under long periods of pressure. If we took the game to the opposition more the defense would be under pressure less so hopefully make less mistakes and therefore concede less and hopefully score more too. Also you're using raw data to say we are the 3rd most effective attacking unit outside the top six which is not borne out by watching our play which has little fluency. Performance does matter and I for one don't want to see a team that is so wrapped up in not conceding that the play becomes even more sterile and boring than it currently is.
|
|
|
Post by elystokie on Nov 29, 2017 16:47:12 GMT
The fact that people are throwing Pulis's name around suggests that they have as little clue how to stop the rot as Hughes does. Coates needs to be bold and there is no evidence from the past that he will be. So cry scream and piss as much as you need to but Hughes is here for at least another few months. H And by that time, H, we could be top half and doing okay. The league is so tight that a run of decent results could see us vying to get into Europe. Always look on the bright side of things. I dunner give a fuck as long as Toxic is kept at bay. OS. Same here Mick, him never coming back to this club is priority number 1 for me, above premiership survival and everything else.
|
|
|
Post by leoncort on Nov 29, 2017 16:47:38 GMT
But we're the 3rd most effective team going forward outside of the top 6?? we're scoring goals that clearly isnt the problem!! The problem is we're soft as shit at the back and fans would be happy/entertained if we wern't conceding goals and were seeing out games 2-0.. You aren't taking into account the fact that we are setting up to concede territory and have our defense under long periods of pressure. If we took the game to the opposition more the defense would be under pressure less so hopefully make less mistakes and therefore concede less and hopefully score more too. Also you're using raw data to say we are the 3rd most effective attacking unit outside the top six which is not borne out by watching our play which has little fluency. Performance does matter and I for one don't want to see a team that is so wrapped up in not conceding that the play becomes even more sterile and boring than it currently is. What other data am i supposed to use to assess the attacking quality of a side other than goals?? and i think you're wrong, the game has developed in a way that sometimes you have to sit in and soak up pressure then take your chance on the break. hence why teams are winning more with less possession. I'd rather that than be Southampton who just pass it along the half way line going absolutely nowhere. At the end of the day i don't care as long as stoke win. Some of my best times watching stoke have been smash and grab wins, however it would be nice to win 6-1 at home every week but come on get real.
|
|
|
Post by skip on Nov 29, 2017 16:48:30 GMT
Pulis' ego would be off the fucking scale if he got invited back. Christ Almighty, I'd be tempted to throw in the towel if he came back. Bigger picture people, please.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 29, 2017 16:54:52 GMT
8 wins out of 32. Why stop at 30? That's still poor The 6 from 30 is a figure I read on here the other day. Or 5 from 25 still poor and is not getting any better .
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 29, 2017 16:59:20 GMT
You've supported my argument? Liverpool have scored more than Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal yet sit below them? so how will a striker help them out? they need a solid base. If you need me to explain again, we've outscored Burnley, Brighton, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Southampton, Newcastle yet sit below them all in the table because we cant' defend for shit? if you dont concede the least you're getting is a point and right now thats what we'd take. I've supported no such thing. You originally said you don't win games by conceding 2 goals, I said you do if you score 3. I reckon at the moment Liverpool would probably beat all those above bar Man City, purely down to the amount of goals they score not their defence. We shall see at the end of the season I suppose but we are in desperate need if a striker who is on fire. Our missed chances alone prove that. H But we don't play with a proper out and out striker as a striker until we need rescuing and on comes Crouch, meanwhile we have Mama at RWB and Berahino either sitting on the bench or sitting in his armchair, who's fault is this ?
|
|
|
Post by alster on Nov 29, 2017 17:08:06 GMT
You aren't taking into account the fact that we are setting up to concede territory and have our defense under long periods of pressure. If we took the game to the opposition more the defense would be under pressure less so hopefully make less mistakes and therefore concede less and hopefully score more too. Also you're using raw data to say we are the 3rd most effective attacking unit outside the top six which is not borne out by watching our play which has little fluency. Performance does matter and I for one don't want to see a team that is so wrapped up in not conceding that the play becomes even more sterile and boring than it currently is. What other data am i supposed to use to assess the attacking quality of a side other than goals?? and i think you're wrong, the game has developed in a way that sometimes you have to sit in and soak up pressure then take your chance on the break. hence why teams are winning more with less possession. I'd rather that than be Southampton who just pass it along the half way line going absolutely nowhere. At the end of the day i don't care as long as stoke win. Some of my best times watching stoke have been smash and grab wins, however it would be nice to win 6-1 at home every week but come on get real. Not even Man City win by 5 every week and nobody's suggesting that is possible for us but playing as we are we'll never get convincing wins or performances playing scared football. You talk about Southampton passing it along the half way line going nowhere but at least by doing that their defense isn't under constant pressure and they did score 4 the other day when was the last time we did? You just seem like someone who yearns for Pulisball to me.
|
|
|
Post by superheroantonius on Nov 29, 2017 17:09:50 GMT
He wont turn it around without a striker Life in the prem is very difficult if you dont have a goalscorer If he signed a 15 to 20 goal a season striker that would change everything To be honest, is previous attempts at this have been abysmal and there is even evidence that if he was close to finding one, he would play the lad at right back! I think sparky is on his way The only thing that can save him is to sign a 2017 james beattie, but I dont think he knows how?? I agree with the need for a regular goal scorer, would make huge difference . However examples of clubs outside the big six (?) doing that since we have been in the Premiership are very rare . Finding such a striker on our resources isn’t as easy as some on here seem to believe. Strikers are not the easiest players to find, but we ought to be able to get in someone of the calibre of fuller beattie or crouchy ( at the level he was when he signed) Thats not lukaku aguero kane level but its a much more prolific level than berahino
|
|
|
Post by terrorofturfmoor on Nov 29, 2017 17:13:00 GMT
A question to all the supporters who thinks Hughes will turn this mess around.I would like to know what argument/evidence do you have that he will? Would imagine it would just be totally the opposite to the arguement that he won't???
|
|
|
Post by Bera’s Beano on Nov 29, 2017 17:13:52 GMT
I’m transitioning from Remain to Huxit at the moment. 1. The Remainer in me sees a situation where Hughes has probably not been backed with an appropriate level of funds nor with some of the players he was targeting. There is an argument that others in the club are at fault here, but these guys stay out of the limelight and it all lands on the manager’s doorstep. 2. I like what Hughes is trying to do. The intention to play great football with flair players is absolutely what I want and so this above all things makes me want him to succeed. 3. The issues are specific and I think they can be resolved. Our defence is not what it could be. (See point 1) I don’t believe he really wanted to go into the season with a repurposed attacker at right fullback and a repurposed flat back left back as a wing-back. 4. I don’t hold him responsible for the lack of a 20 per season striker - every team around us want one and there are not enough to go round. I applaud his pursuit of Berahino - it isn’t working but it was a punt I would have taken. Where I am losing faith is that it is not working on a consistent basis. We only accept it isn’t working in the 70th minute of games and it has been failing for a lot longer than it should have been, I don’t know if it is entirely down to Hughes, but part of his effectiveness must be to persuade the clubs hierarchy of his case. I do wonder whether it needs a new man to come in who has better skills in behind-the-scenes negotiation, diplomacy and tenaciousness as well as the tactical stuff. I hope Hughes can sort it out. If he does, he has earned another season. If not, I think we need to see out the season (without getting relegated). That is the time to do the deed. For point 1: Wimmer? £18m? Wasted, even if he is better than he’s looked so far he wasn’t necessary really when Martins Indi has been signed for way less. Point 2: The football on show for the last 6 - 18 months (depending on how harsh you want to be) has been as bad as any I’ve seen for a long while. (Not worse than the end of TP’s tenure but probably just as bad at times). Point 3: Wimmer again. He has planned to play a 3 at the back with wing back system, then didn’t spend that money on one wing back, nevermind the 2 he actually needed. If he thought Pieters could be a good enough wing back then he is a bad enough judge of a player’s ability to be sacked for that alone. Point 4: I agree regards how hard it is to find a 20 goal a season striker but you should be able to find a 10 to 15 one if he just looks down our right wing... Also while Berahino hasn’t scored yet he barely had a chance to with absolutely no service whatsoever when he was picked (but that again is down to Hughes using him as a lone striker despite him having no attributes that a lone striker needs) which is Hughes’ fault doubley, one for signing him without knowing how to use him, then dropping him altogether and playing a winger up front instead who cost nothing. He does need sacking really...
|
|
|
Post by OldStokie on Nov 29, 2017 17:26:34 GMT
As I've said before, I'm indifferent to Hughes these days and would accept that the last 20 months have been a disappointment. So, would I swap him for another manager? Well, definitely not Toxic, but looking at the best of the rest who are available then the only one I can see out there who might just do a better job is Koeman. And that's a bloke who has failed miserably at Everton.
I won't go too far back to try and create some sense of perspective to recent times, but let's take the last eight games as an example, plus the next two home games for what I expect.
Chelsea at home. Didn't expect anything but a 4-0 scoreline was a bad result.
S'hampton at home. 2-1. A decent result and one I thought we would win.
Man City away. 7-2. A right drubbing by a team that every knowledgeable pundit in the land agreed was one of the best (if not the best) Premiership performances since the Prem was formed. They were unplayable that day and it just happened to be us that came up against them. I don't like it, but I can live with it.
Bournemouth at home. 1-2. This was a bad one for us but not as bad as we did against them the previous season. I would have settled for a draw and was disappointed that we lost.
Watford away. 1-0 to us. Considering they were a team playing well with a very good home record, that was a good result by anyone's standards and I was chuffed with that.
Leicester at home. 2-2. A result most of us expected. Disappointed but not downhearted at that result.
Brighton away. 2-2. They've been playing well and I was happy enough with the scoreline.
Palace away. 1-2. Disappointed that we lost after being the better team and especially because we were one up. But I wasn't surprised. Palace always manage to get one over us.
Tonight. I'll be disappointed if we we don't give L'pool a good game. I won't predict the result, but this game could go either way. I'll be disappointed if we get a drubbing.
Saturday. I'll be very disappointed if we get anything less than 3 points from Swansea at home.
That's where I am with the whole shebang. I'm certainly not, like some on here, suicidal at what's going on. I've seen much, much worse stuff over the years.
OS.
|
|
|
Post by elystokie on Nov 29, 2017 17:33:40 GMT
As I've said before, I'm indifferent to Hughes these days and would accept that the last 20 months have been a disappointment. So, would I swap him for another manager? Well, definitely not Toxic, but looking at the best of the rest who are available then the only one I can see out there who might just do a better job is Koeman. And that's a bloke who has failed miserably at Everton. I won't go too far back to try and create some sense of perspective to recent times, but let's take the last eight games as an example, plus the next two home games for what I expect. Chelsea at home. Didn't expect anything but a 4-0 scoreline was a bad result. S'hampton at home. 2-1. A decent result and one I thought we would win. Man City away. 7-2. A right drubbing by a team that every knowledgeable pundit in the land agreed was one of the best (if not the best) Premiership performances since the Prem was formed. They were unplayable that day and it just happened to be us that came up against them. I don't like it, but I can live with it. Bournemouth at home. 1-2. This was a bad one for us but not as bad as we did against them the previous season. I would have settled for a draw and was disappointed that we lost. Watford away. 1-0 to us. Considering they were a team playing well with a very good home record, that was a good result by anyone's standards and I was chuffed with that. Leicester at home. 2-2. A result most of us expected. Disappointed but not downhearted at that result. Brighton away. 2-2. They've been playing well and I was happy enough with the scoreline. Palace away. 1-2. Disappointed that we lost after being the better team and especially because we were one up. But I wasn't surprised. Palace always manage to get one over us. Tonight. I'll be disappointed if we we don't give L'pool a good game. I won't predict the result, but this game could go either way. I'll be disappointed if we get a drubbing. Saturday. I'll be very disappointed if we get anything less than 3 points from Swansea at home. That's where I am with the whole shebang. I'm certainly not, like some on here, suicidal at what's going on. I've seen much, much worse stuff over the years. OS. Again, pretty much how I see things Mick, agree with all of that
|
|
|
Post by chesterfieldstokie on Nov 29, 2017 17:35:37 GMT
But we're the 3rd most effective team going forward outside of the top 6?? we're scoring goals that clearly isnt the problem!! The problem is we're soft as shit at the back and fans would be happy/entertained if we wern't conceding goals and were seeing out games 2-0.. You aren't taking into account the fact that we are setting up to concede territory and have our defense under long periods of pressure. If we took the game to the opposition more the defense would be under pressure less so hopefully make less mistakes and therefore concede less and hopefully score more too. Also you're using raw data to say we are the 3rd most effective attacking unit outside the top six which is not borne out by watching our play which has little fluency. Performance does matter and I for one don't want to see a team that is so wrapped up in not conceding that the play becomes even more sterile and boring than it currently is. You mean like Leicester when they won the league???
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 29, 2017 17:45:04 GMT
You aren't taking into account the fact that we are setting up to concede territory and have our defense under long periods of pressure. If we took the game to the opposition more the defense would be under pressure less so hopefully make less mistakes and therefore concede less and hopefully score more too. Also you're using raw data to say we are the 3rd most effective attacking unit outside the top six which is not borne out by watching our play which has little fluency. Performance does matter and I for one don't want to see a team that is so wrapped up in not conceding that the play becomes even more sterile and boring than it currently is. You mean like Leicester when they won the league??? Difference is they could defend much better than we can, of course they had Huth and Morgan at the heart of their defence playing in a system that suited the players their manager bought in, we have a system that our players can not play !!!!! who do you think this is down to ?
|
|
|
Post by chesterfieldstokie on Nov 29, 2017 17:46:58 GMT
You mean like Leicester when they won the league??? Difference is they could defend much better than we can, of course they had Huth and Morgan at the heart of their defence playing in a system that suited the players their manager bought in, we have a system that our players can not play !!!!! who do you think this is down to ? Hughes of course and so glad it makes you happy!
|
|
|
Post by kustokie on Nov 29, 2017 17:48:13 GMT
I don't think we are playing all that badly. We just make too many mistakes at the back. There is no obvious messiah waiting in the wings. A lot of the names quoted on other threads are unrealistic. We would end up with an out of work manager who has made all the same mistakes that Hughes has made so why would things suddenly improve? What I would like to see is a specialist defensive coach joining Hughes staff, and recruitment of a couple of fullbacks and a midfielder in January. As far as I am concerned making too many mistakes at the back equates to playing badly.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 29, 2017 17:52:45 GMT
Difference is they could defend much better than we can, of course they had Huth and Morgan at the heart of their defence playing in a system that suited the players their manager bought in, we have a system that our players can not play !!!!! who do you think this is down to ? Hughes of course and so glad it makes you happy! The sound of another penny reluctantly dropping to the floor, right answer am I happy that our club is been ruined by Hughes no not at all !
|
|
|
Post by chesterfieldstokie on Nov 29, 2017 17:54:20 GMT
Hughes of course and so glad it makes you happy! The sound of another penny reluctantly dropping to the floor, right answer am I happy that our club is been ruined by Hughes no not at all ! Always said Hughes should have gone at the end of last season, but unlike you I dont thrive on the failure.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 29, 2017 17:56:49 GMT
The sound of another penny reluctantly dropping to the floor, right answer am I happy that our club is been ruined by Hughes no not at all ! Always said Hughes should have gone at the end of last season, but unlike you I dont thrive on the failure. of course you did.
|
|
|
Post by chesterfieldstokie on Nov 29, 2017 17:59:24 GMT
Always said Hughes should have gone at the end of last season, but unlike you I dont thrive on the failure. of course you did. Ask Dutt of the Knot FM show he knows I did, you just keep gloating and loving the defeats.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 29, 2017 18:01:20 GMT
of course you did. Ask Dutt of the Knot FM show he knows I did, you just keep gloating and loving the defeats. Of course I will call him in a min.
|
|
|
Post by chesterfieldstokie on Nov 29, 2017 18:16:45 GMT
Ask Dutt of the Knot FM show he knows I did, you just keep gloating and loving the defeats. Of course I will call him in a min. Good until then just keep on crying and whinging
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Nov 29, 2017 18:27:12 GMT
Of course I will call him in a min. Good until then just keep on crying and whinging Got to go now I'm off to the game, might see you there oh well maybe not
|
|