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Post by jimmygscfc on Nov 27, 2017 13:25:50 GMT
We seem more prone to defensive blunders with three centre backs than we did with two because the wing backs have no idea how to play their role. Erik is constantly in a no-mans land and tucks in next to Wimmer as opposed to covering the far left side of defence. He either gets in the way or gets caught out of position. It's awful to watch. Go back to a four man defence and play an extra midfielder, one of whom can cover the runners from the opposition midfield. Cameron for me, but we could also do with him at right back in order to release Diouf to play up front with Choupo and Shaq. I agree to an extent but Wimmer is more uncomfortable in the left sided centre half role than Pieters is in the LWB role for me. If we are playing 3 at the back, the 3 has to be Zouma, Shawcross and BMI because both Zouma and BMI are comfortable in full back positions. The introduction of BMI, will clear Erik's mind and make him much more comfortable trying to do the role that is being asked of him in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, it is still far from ideal, but that one change would make a massive difference down the left side of the pitch. Equally, Diouf at RWB needs to be binned off. Moving forward, it has to be one of Edwards, Johnson or Cameron at RWB, if we are to persist with 3 at the back which ultimately, few within the supporter base, want to see continue. Are you saying 4-3-3 is the way to go rather than 4-2-3-1? Either formation Dave, as each can become the other and both are better than what we have.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 27, 2017 13:33:04 GMT
I agree to an extent but Wimmer is more uncomfortable in the left sided centre half role than Pieters is in the LWB role for me. If we are playing 3 at the back, the 3 has to be Zouma, Shawcross and BMI because both Zouma and BMI are comfortable in full back positions. The introduction of BMI, will clear Erik's mind and make him much more comfortable trying to do the role that is being asked of him in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, it is still far from ideal, but that one change would make a massive difference down the left side of the pitch. Equally, Diouf at RWB needs to be binned off. Moving forward, it has to be one of Edwards, Johnson or Cameron at RWB, if we are to persist with 3 at the back which ultimately, few within the supporter base, want to see continue. Are you saying 4-3-3 is the way to go rather than 4-2-3-1? Either formation Dave, as each can become the other and both are better than what we have. So if 4-2-3-1, who makes up the 3 so that the central player in that formation contributes in midfield as well?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 13:39:31 GMT
I'm not advocating playing it for one minute but I would argue that playing Allen in the advanced midfield position of a 4-2-3-1 would be more successful this season than last as at least Fletcher (unlike Whelan) has the vision to pass forwards and break the lines. That and the fact that Allen after a summer off has come back with more of a spring in his step and is playing with a bit more discipline in whatever role he's given these days.....
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Post by kjpt140v on Nov 27, 2017 13:43:33 GMT
What was the rational in signing him ? Were you at the game on Saturday? If so you wouldn’t be asking this question. He was cool, calm and collected. He played really well and in the last home match he played a solid game. After a poor start I’m really happy to see him playing so well. I only wish he or Indie could play left or right back.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Nov 27, 2017 14:30:19 GMT
Either formation Dave, as each can become the other and both are better than what we have. So if 4-2-3-1, who makes up the 3 so that the central player in that formation contributes in midfield as well? For me Dave, at the moment, it would be Allen, with Cameron alongside Fletcher in the two. I'd play Choupo wide and Shaq and Mame down the middle. Not ideal but few options.
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Post by jezzascfc on Nov 27, 2017 14:39:17 GMT
So if 4-2-3-1, who makes up the 3 so that the central player in that formation contributes in midfield as well? For me Dave, at the moment, it would be Allen, with Cameron alongside Fletcher in the two. I'd play Choupo wide and Shaq and Mame down the middle. Not ideal but few options. Agreed - back four of Zouma, Ryan, Bruno and Erik, with Cameron and Fletch ahead of them, Shaq and Choupo flanking Joe in attacking midfield, behind Diouf up front. Far less square pegs, defenders defending, and an actual striker up front - got to be an improvement, shirley?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 27, 2017 14:57:16 GMT
For me Dave, at the moment, it would be Allen, with Cameron alongside Fletcher in the two. I'd play Choupo wide and Shaq and Mame down the middle. Not ideal but few options. Agreed - back four of Zouma, Ryan, Bruno and Erik, with Cameron and Fletch ahead of them, Shaq and Choupo flanking Joe in attacking midfield, behind Diouf up front. Far less square pegs, defenders defending, and an actual striker up front - got to be an improvement, shirley? I'd go with that whilst results aren't great. Sure things up but still give us attacking intent. It would be very harsh on Ramadan who I think has done well these last few games but hey ho, needs must. As confidence builds and results (hopefully) improve, we could then become a bit more adventurous with the 3 consisting of 3 from Choupo, Shaqiri, Ramadan & Jese with a proper forward ahead of them.
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Post by stokemark on Nov 27, 2017 15:10:20 GMT
Agreed - back four of Zouma, Ryan, Bruno and Erik, with Cameron and Fletch ahead of them, Shaq and Choupo flanking Joe in attacking midfield, behind Diouf up front. Far less square pegs, defenders defending, and an actual striker up front - got to be an improvement, shirley? I'd go with that whilst results aren't great. Sure things up but still give us attacking intent. It would be very harsh on Ramadan who I think has done well these last few games but hey ho, needs must. As confidence builds and results (hopefully) improve, we could then become a bit more adventurous with the 3 consisting of 3 from Choupo, Shaqiri, Ramadan & Jese with a proper forward ahead of them. Judging by his press conference comments he is wedded to the current system. I agree entirely with the comments / set up described above but we do have a stumbling block in that Geoff is still not fit. It does nothing to detract from my belief (and many others) that the Wimmer signing was an expensive mistake based on a system that simply isnt suited to utilise the players he has. If instead of Wimmer we had signed a an engine in midfield I genuinely dont think we would be as concerned as we are now about things. The decision not to coupled with the aging legs of Fletcher beggars belief. We are now in a half way house between a system that doesnt work and and solution that we cannot easily accommodate so no surprise really that he will continue with it until he is shown the door.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Nov 27, 2017 15:24:08 GMT
If Afellay is up to full fitness then we could play him until Cameron is ready, but the problem seems to be the manager's obsession with the system as it stands.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2017 15:53:22 GMT
What was the rational in signing him ? Were you at the game on Saturday? If so you wouldn’t be asking this question. He was cool, calm and collected. He played really well and in the last home match he played a solid game. After a poor start I’m really happy to see him playing so well. I only wish he or Indie could play left or right back. No I was not sorry, I did watch the game live on stream though I know it is totally different than live, I also believe he is improving but not sure he will ever justify the £18 m price tag. The reason I asked about the rationale in signing him was to gauge other opinions on whether he was needed in the first place considering we had just signed BMI who we chased all summer, personally I would have preferred the money to have been invested in areas such as wing backs, striker and a defensive midfielder who was up to the job not some ageing has been.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 16:01:45 GMT
I don't really want to put tonnes of blame on Wimmer or judge him. for one, he's played about 5 games. for two, Mark Hughes has turned what is on paper the best group centre halves outside the top 6 into the 2nd top conceders of goals. Zouma/Shawcross/Indi/Wimmer should not be conceding as many as they do. The fact that they are such good defenders elsewhere points that finger directly at Hughes.
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Post by thegift on Nov 27, 2017 16:05:21 GMT
I don't really want to put tonnes of blame on Wimmer or judge him. for one, he's played about 5 games. for two, Mark Hughes has turned what is on paper the best group centre halves outside the top 6 into the 2nd top conceders of goals. Zouma/Shawcross/Indi/Wimmer should not be conceding as many as they do. The fact that they are such good defenders elsewhere points that finger directly at Hughes. This.
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Post by kjpt140v on Nov 27, 2017 16:26:48 GMT
Were you at the game on Saturday? If so you wouldn’t be asking this question. He was cool, calm and collected. He played really well and in the last home match he played a solid game. After a poor start I’m really happy to see him playing so well. I only wish he or Indie could play left or right back. No I was not sorry, I did watch the game live on stream though I know it is totally different than live, I also believe he is improving but not sure he will ever justify the £18 m price tag. The reason I asked about the rationale in signing him was to gauge other opinions on whether he was needed in the first place considering we had just signed BMI who we chased all summer, personally I would have preferred the money to have been invested in areas such as wing backs, striker and a defensive midfielder who was up to the job not some ageing has been. Wimmer is proving to be a very good signing and is keeping Indi out of the side. Wimmer is required as Zouma probably won’t be with us next season ad I personally worry that Shawcross’ time is limited due to his back. I know Bardsley was no big deal but I thought he was playing better than Johnson. Having sold him we haven’t replaced him and that was crazy.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2017 16:29:21 GMT
I don't really want to put tonnes of blame on Wimmer or judge him. for one, he's played about 5 games. for two, Mark Hughes has turned what is on paper the best group centre halves outside the top 6 into the 2nd top conceders of goals. Zouma/Shawcross/Indi/Wimmer should not be conceding as many as they do. The fact that they are such good defenders elsewhere points that finger directly at Hughes. Not impressed with his man management skills either tbh., how must Edwards be feeling after Saturday bought into the squad to cover Mama who was carrying an injury Mama goes off and Hughes plays Moting as his replacement, same with Berahino (though I don't rate him ) he came here with confidence and fitness issues some self inflicted plays when he is plainly unfit, gets a full preseason get's physically fit then Hughes drops him from the squad or plays him for 10 mins a game. Heis destroying players confidence and their careers to keep himself out of the shit that is not acceptable at any level.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2017 16:30:17 GMT
No I was not sorry, I did watch the game live on stream though I know it is totally different than live, I also believe he is improving but not sure he will ever justify the £18 m price tag. The reason I asked about the rationale in signing him was to gauge other opinions on whether he was needed in the first place considering we had just signed BMI who we chased all summer, personally I would have preferred the money to have been invested in areas such as wing backs, striker and a defensive midfielder who was up to the job not some ageing has been. Simmer is proving to be a very good signing and is keeping Indi out of the side. Simmer is required as Zouma probably won’t be with us next season ad I personally worry that Shawcross’ time is limited due to his back. I know Bardsley was no big deal but I thought he was playing better than Johnson. Having sold him we haven’t replaced him and that was crazy. Simmer is coming to the boil nicely
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Post by kjpt140v on Nov 27, 2017 16:40:38 GMT
Simmer is proving to be a very good signing and is keeping Indi out of the side. Simmer is required as Zouma probably won’t be with us next season ad I personally worry that Shawcross’ time is limited due to his back. I know Bardsley was no big deal but I thought he was playing better than Johnson. Having sold him we haven’t replaced him and that was crazy. Simmer is coming to the boil nicely Bloody predictive text.
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Wimmer !
Nov 27, 2017 17:51:53 GMT
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Nov 27, 2017 17:51:53 GMT
I'm not advocating playing it for one minute but I would argue that playing Allen in the advanced midfield position of a 4-2-3-1 would be more successful this season than last as at least Fletcher (unlike Whelan) has the vision to pass forwards and break the lines. That and the fact that Allen after a summer off has come back with more of a spring in his step and is playing with a bit more discipline in whatever role he's given these days..... But who are you having as the other holding midfielder? We've only got Allen and Fletcher thanks to our well-thought out summer window
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2017 19:00:36 GMT
I'm not advocating playing it for one minute but I would argue that playing Allen in the advanced midfield position of a 4-2-3-1 would be more successful this season than last as at least Fletcher (unlike Whelan) has the vision to pass forwards and break the lines. That and the fact that Allen after a summer off has come back with more of a spring in his step and is playing with a bit more discipline in whatever role he's given these days..... But who are you having as the other holding midfielder? We've only got Allen and Fletcher thanks to our well-thought out summer window Dragging Imbula back into the fold perhaps .
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Post by roylandstoke on Nov 27, 2017 19:20:23 GMT
The rationale for buying Wimmer was to have options for the left sided CB in a back 3. Ryan, Cameron and Zouma can all play on the right and all 5 can play in the middle. Buying Wimmer ment that we have a good set of CBs for a back 3.
The problem is we don't have any wingbacks at all. We continue to concede silly goals against poor teams because we cannot defend the edges of our CBs. There is no understanding whatsoever of how to play the system properly. Opposition teams have sussed that by playing balls across the CBs rather than into the centre they can find huge spaces and total uncertainty in our defence.
The CBs are all decent defenders. Pieters is a decent LB. Diouf is the best striker at the club. We should not be playing 3-4-3.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2017 20:03:51 GMT
The rationale for buying Wimmer was to have options for the left sided CB in a back 3. Ryan, Cameron and Zouma can all play on the right and all 5 can play in the middle. Buying Wimmer ment that we have a good set of CBs for a back 3. The problem is we don't have any wingbacks at all. We continue to concede silly goals against poor teams because we cannot defend the edges of our CBs. There is no understanding whatsoever of how to play the system properly. Opposition teams have sussed that by playing balls across the CBs rather than into the centre they can find huge spaces and total uncertainty in our defence. Yhe CBs are all decent defenders. Pieters is a decent LB. Diouf is the best striker at the club. We should not be playing 3-4-3. Thanks and I can see your thinking, where does that leave BMI as back up ? it would make sense as to why he has not been playing. The system does rely totally on wing backs to make it work either offensively or defensively, we have no wing backs surely it would have been common sense to invest in two proper wing backs and leave the CB's as they were with the inclusion of Zouma and BMI until next season where we would have needed another.
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Post by roylandstoke on Nov 27, 2017 20:14:54 GMT
The rationale for buying Wimmer was to have options for the left sided CB in a back 3. Ryan, Cameron and Zouma can all play on the right and all 5 can play in the middle. Buying Wimmer ment that we have a good set of CBs for a back 3. The problem is we don't have any wingbacks at all. We continue to concede silly goals against poor teams because we cannot defend the edges of our CBs. There is no understanding whatsoever of how to play the system properly. Opposition teams have sussed that by playing balls across the CBs rather than into the centre they can find huge spaces and total uncertainty in our defence. Yhe CBs are all decent defenders. Pieters is a decent LB. Diouf is the best striker at the club. We should not be playing 3-4-3. Thanks and I can see your thinking, where does that leave BMI as back up ? it would make sense as to why he has not been playing. The system does rely totally on wing backs to make it work either offensively or defensively, we have no wing backs surely it would have been common sense to invest in two proper wing backs and leave the CB's as they were with the inclusion of Zouma and BMI until next season where we would have needed another. BMI and Wimmer should be fighting it out to play left side of the back 3. Common sense does not seem to have been a part in our transfer policy for some time.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2017 20:23:10 GMT
Thanks and I can see your thinking, where does that leave BMI as back up ? it would make sense as to why he has not been playing. The system does rely totally on wing backs to make it work either offensively or defensively, we have no wing backs surely it would have been common sense to invest in two proper wing backs and leave the CB's as they were with the inclusion of Zouma and BMI until next season where we would have needed another. BMI and Wimmer should be fighting it out to play left side of the back 3. Common sense does not seem to have been a part in our transfer policy for some time. No sense seems to have been part of our transfer policy for the last two years.
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Post by brinsleymaclagan on Nov 27, 2017 20:30:26 GMT
I've just watched the match against The Shit again-great performance by Stoke, unlucky not to win. Zouma, Cameron and Wimmer started at the back, with Bruno replacing the injured Cameron at half time. The defence looked comfortable for most of the match, and the 2 goals they conceded were a fluke deflection and a borderline offside goal against a team who were on fire at the time. Wimmer had an excellent match, his distribution especially very good. The weakest link is, I believe, the man whose name is missing from that list and is allowed to get away with any number of mistakes without being lambasted like others
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2017 20:55:53 GMT
I've just watched the match against The Shit again-great performance by Stoke, unlucky not to win. Zouma, Cameron and Wimmer started at the back, with Bruno replacing the injured Cameron at half time. The defence looked comfortable for most of the match, and the 2 goals they conceded were a fluke deflection and a borderline offside goal against a team who were on fire at the time. Wimmer had an excellent match, his distribution especially very good. The weakest link is, I believe, the man whose name is missing from that list and is allowed to get away with any number of mistakes without being lambasted like others Joe Allen ?
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Wimmer !
Nov 27, 2017 21:19:46 GMT
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Post by Fred Merger on Nov 27, 2017 21:19:46 GMT
I've just watched the match against The Shit again-great performance by Stoke, unlucky not to win. Zouma, Cameron and Wimmer started at the back, with Bruno replacing the injured Cameron at half time. The defence looked comfortable for most of the match, and the 2 goals they conceded were a fluke deflection and a borderline offside goal against a team who were on fire at the time. Wimmer had an excellent match, his distribution especially very good. The weakest link is, I believe, the man whose name is missing from that list and is allowed to get away with any number of mistakes without being lambasted like others The manager hasn't got the bollocks the drop his captain after giving him a new four year contract with his glass back problems!
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 27, 2017 21:23:28 GMT
I've just watched the match against The Shit again-great performance by Stoke, unlucky not to win. Zouma, Cameron and Wimmer started at the back, with Bruno replacing the injured Cameron at half time. The defence looked comfortable for most of the match, and the 2 goals they conceded were a fluke deflection and a borderline offside goal against a team who were on fire at the time. Wimmer had an excellent match, his distribution especially very good. The weakest link is, I believe, the man whose name is missing from that list and is allowed to get away with any number of mistakes without being lambasted like others The manager hasn't got the bollocks the drop his captain after giving him a new four year contract with his glass back problems! He dropped Bojan, Berahino and Johnson though I wonder why ?
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Post by tuum on Nov 28, 2017 4:46:26 GMT
I've just watched the match against The Shit again-great performance by Stoke, unlucky not to win. Zouma, Cameron and Wimmer started at the back, with Bruno replacing the injured Cameron at half time. The defence looked comfortable for most of the match, and the 2 goals they conceded were a fluke deflection and a borderline offside goal against a team who were on fire at the time. Wimmer had an excellent match, his distribution especially very good. The weakest link is, I believe, the man whose name is missing from that list and is allowed to get away with any number of mistakes without being lambasted like others The manager hasn't got the bollocks the drop his captain after giving him a new four year contract with his glass back problems! Perhaps because his Captain is still the best defender at the club?
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Wimmer !
Nov 28, 2017 6:52:53 GMT
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Post by Fred Merger on Nov 28, 2017 6:52:53 GMT
You dont really believe that on current form do you?
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Nov 28, 2017 7:27:25 GMT
In hindsight,maybe would should have got him in on loan,with a view to buying him,depending on how he did,instead of letting Spurs take us for fools yet again.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 28, 2017 7:36:44 GMT
In hindsight,maybe would should have got him in on loan,with a view to buying him,depending on how he did,instead of letting Spurs take us for fools yet again. We tried that with BMI, he performed well during his loan with us we signed him then dropped him !, maybe Wimmer will come good but it is one hell of a risk at the price we paid.
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