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Post by wuzza on Oct 22, 2017 14:10:36 GMT
Before we get too carried away with the idea that bet365 are riding on the coat-tails of Stoke City there is a simple equation which we’d all do well to remember; bet365 disappears tomorrow = Stoke City with serious financial issues to contend with. Stoke City disappears tomorrow = bet365 continues on its merry way without batting an eyelid.That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. Stoke City are a low profile, middling, top flight club with one major trophy to its name and a stadium with a stadium capacity below 30,000. bet365 is a wold leader in its field with a massive profile across the entire planet. They’re giving more to the club than they’re getting from it. And to correct one earlier post. It is true that bet365 loans the club money but it is most definitely NOT true that it all gets paid back. In actual fact the Coates family wrote off something like £80m in loans in the seasons immediately after promotion, converting the amount instead into extra shares. I do agree that action needs to be taken and that our owners have to act but we need to deal with the reality of the situation and not go dealing in wishful thinking. All very true - the only thing you could say is that the club could be a darn sight more useful to Bet 365 ( and even pay its way a bit ) if it got its act together and say won a cup or something. Might just be a bit of an incentive for the family to be more proactive - at the minute I doubt SCFC contributes much positive publicity at all.
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Post by mrred on Oct 22, 2017 14:11:53 GMT
Us being in the Premiership is what’s raking Coates his money in from our global exposure, the fact he seems to be risking this through sheer blind faith is actually rather disturbing. I think the problem is more complacency than faith. They're pushing how far they can get away with not investing properly. Probsbly works out cheaper with getting free transfers and finishing slightly lower than spending more to finish one or two places higher. Either way, it's disturbing.
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Post by Smudge_SCFC on Oct 22, 2017 14:22:48 GMT
Before we get too carried away with the idea that bet365 are riding on the coat-tails of Stoke City there is a simple equation which we’d all do well to remember; bet365 disappears tomorrow = Stoke City with serious financial issues to contend with. Stoke City disappears tomorrow = bet365 continues on its merry way without batting an eyelid.That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. Stoke City are a low profile, middling, top flight club with one major trophy to its name and a stadium with a stadium capacity below 30,000. bet365 is a wold leader in its field with a massive profile across the entire planet. They’re giving more to the club than they’re getting from it. And to correct one earlier post. It is true that bet365 loans the club money but it is most definitely NOT true that it all gets paid back. In actual fact the Coates family wrote off something like £80m in loans in the seasons immediately after promotion, converting the amount instead into extra shares. I do agree that action needs to be taken and that our owners have to act but we need to deal with the reality of the situation and not go dealing in wishful thinking. Is it true that Bet365 own a holding company that owns the Stadium, and charges approx 5M a year in rent to the club? I honestly don’t know but I can assure you that bet365 doesn’t unduly worry itself over £5m. Their profits in 2016 were more than £448m with revenue in excess of £1.5bn.
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Post by alster on Oct 22, 2017 14:24:57 GMT
I would like to correct the previous post. There is no money owed to Bet365 from Stoke City Limited. Bet365 allow funds to release so to trade financially in a fiscal year. The loan is purely to bridge the incoming premiership payments. What I am advocating is Mr Coates is NOT utilising the wealth of Bet365 effectively not costing him any financial risk. This is NOT a club who is prepared to take risks. Fact. Mr Coates says we have to self sufficient. HOW?? They've speculated and accumulated but are no longer willing to follow that successful model for some reason they now want the club to be totally self financing and this is why we're unable to compete in the transfer market and end up with expensive compromises that are probably 3/4/5th choice signings for their respective positions. Does anyone on here believe that Kevin Wimmer was our number one transfer target this Summer?
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Post by mozzer on Oct 22, 2017 14:37:40 GMT
Before we get too carried away with the idea that bet365 are riding on the coat-tails of Stoke City there is a simple equation which we’d all do well to remember; bet365 disappears tomorrow = Stoke City with serious financial issues to contend with. Stoke City disappears tomorrow = bet365 continues on its merry way without batting an eyelid.That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. Stoke City are a low profile, middling, top flight club with one major trophy to its name and a stadium with a stadium capacity below 30,000. bet365 is a wold leader in its field with a massive profile across the entire planet. They’re giving more to the club than they’re getting from it. And to correct one earlier post. It is true that bet365 loans the club money but it is most definitely NOT true that it all gets paid back. In actual fact the Coates family wrote off something like £80m in loans in the seasons immediately after promotion, converting the amount instead into extra shares. I do agree that action needs to be taken and that our owners have to act but we need to deal with the reality of the situation and not go dealing in wishful thinking. Totally agree 100% with what you are saying Smudge, totally agree but BET365 are still getting their monies worth out of the investment in to the club and who can blame them, it is a business investment and it has to work for both parties with gains in both camps, hopefully my explanation never came across that they need us more than Stoke need them because that was not the intention........ But lets not forget that writing off a loan is totally different than converting the loan in to extra shares within the club, it is not written off the loan is only deferred even if it was 8 years ago, once the TV money was inflated you would hope that the share price may go up and any dividends paid out would also increase in line with the investment, as you know banks are currently devoid of payment to capital so if this descison was take 8 years ago it may have been a very shrewd move, I am no financial expert but for "some unknown reason" just probably the shares may be being held off shore by another company too Smudge .....if that is so I would be unsure why that would be eh, it is certainly none of my business and I am only guessing that anyone with any financial clout and acumen would hope to explore these possibilities! But I stand by what I say when I say that the club is worth more to the Coates family as a business vehicle for advertising the BET365 brand than it is to them as a passion for being a rich Stoke fan, the money put in to Stoke is by ours or even anyone else standards a hell of a lot of money but you take a step back and think about it and look what is going on....is the investment required to finish 7th or 8th (midtable) out wieghed by the return on prize money for indeed finishing 7th or 8th, is it worth the investment to finish 10th or 11th (midtable) hoping for the chance that we may finish 7th or 8th but with the comfort that you know that you have done enough not to get relegated, if so it is a dangerous game,I am not 100% sure on this tactic but the last few years MH has kept his job throwing any monies received with gay abandon on misfits and loan deals, time will tell if the Coates family has gambled correctly or been fooled by blind loyalty but if things do not change Smudge as sure as eggs are eggs we will certainly be back with our old stomping grounds of the lower leagues.....fun days them though were they not. How many millions of homes around the world is the BET365 logo or name beamed in to If BET365 had to pay individual advertising revenue to obtain that level of exposure how much would that cost BET365 The advertising coverage via SCFC and the cost to BET365 is small fry for that level of exposure and no doubt some tax advantage may exist to BET365/SCFC or its subsidiary of companies UK held or off shore Its win win Smudge and that in my view is why they will endeavour to change even after the press release this week claiming solidarity within the club, behind the scenes they will be scrambling to fix this debacle as you quite rightly point out beT365 have more to lose than the average fan Did you ever see the channel 4 TV program covering Newcastle United, Mike Ashley and the Sports Direct link, interesting viewing mate and well worth a watch. If you haven't seen it smudge I guarantee you that as you watch it you will go "arrrr sneaky", they explain it a lot better than I do but I am not far off.
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Post by kustokie on Oct 22, 2017 14:47:14 GMT
I can see you're point and its a reasonable one, but we have been in decline, performance wise, since Jan 2016....... that represents a pretty good patience level, I think. I would be very surprised indeed if that factor would put off any potential managers as much as our desire to pay low wages. I think you are right but I have a feeling that Coates will consider this an ideal opportunity to re-emphasise to the footballing world that he is different from his peers. The fiscal aspect of it will also play a part , sacking manages writes off a lot of cash and hence he will not want to take action until relegation becomes a more imminent threat. The writing is on the wall - the imminent threat is there for all to see. The barbarians are at the gate.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 22, 2017 14:50:45 GMT
Before we get too carried away with the idea that bet365 are riding on the coat-tails of Stoke City there is a simple equation which we’d all do well to remember; bet365 disappears tomorrow = Stoke City with serious financial issues to contend with. Stoke City disappears tomorrow = bet365 continues on its merry way without batting an eyelid.That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. Stoke City are a low profile, middling, top flight club with one major trophy to its name and a stadium with a stadium capacity below 30,000. bet365 is a wold leader in its field with a massive profile across the entire planet. They’re giving more to the club than they’re getting from it. And to correct one earlier post. It is true that bet365 loans the club money but it is most definitely NOT true that it all gets paid back. In actual fact the Coates family wrote off something like £80m in loans in the seasons immediately after promotion, converting the amount instead into extra shares. I do agree that action needs to be taken and that our owners have to act but we need to deal with the reality of the situation and not go dealing in wishful thinking. Is it true that Bet365 own a holding company that owns the Stadium, and charges approx 5M a year in rent to the club? The club and stadium are owned by two separate companies aren't they? Obviously owned by the same people but that's the link. It's why when the Supporters Council asked for the protection thing over the stadium (I've forgotten what it was called) and Scholes basically said it was treason, I became worried.
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Post by wuzza on Oct 22, 2017 14:54:15 GMT
I think you are right but I have a feeling that Coates will consider this an ideal opportunity to re-emphasise to the footballing world that he is different from his peers. The fiscal aspect of it will also play a part , sacking manages writes off a lot of cash and hence he will not want to take action until relegation becomes a more imminent threat. The writing is on the wall - the imminent threat is there for all to see. The barbarians are at the gate. Coates had the Barbarians through the gate and invading his boardroom back in the day so I don’t think this will cause him to get too flustered!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 15:00:39 GMT
Is it true that Bet365 own a holding company that owns the Stadium, and charges approx 5M a year in rent to the club? The club and stadium are owned by two separate companies aren't they? Obviously owned by the same people but that's the link. It's why when the Supporters Council asked for the protection thing over the stadium (I've forgotten what it was called) and Scholes basically said it was treason, I became worried. I couldn't be certain as to whether i'd read it or not, so asked the question. At the end of the day, it's their money and they can do what they want with it. In the grand scheme of things, the revenue stream from our existence in the PL is probably now maxed out, hence why is the probable reason for why Bet365 sponsor Ludogorets, a club who dominate their league in Bulgaria and have won their title I believe 6 times in a row. They are pretty much guaranteed a Champions League qualification fixture or two in the very least and have qualified properly a few times. Champions League exposure is a level up again and something they won't get as cheaply no doubt at Stoke, if at all, as they do over there. They are incredible business people.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 22, 2017 15:02:23 GMT
The club and stadium are owned by two separate companies aren't they? Obviously owned by the same people but that's the link. It's why when the Supporters Council asked for the protection thing over the stadium (I've forgotten what it was called) and Scholes basically said it was treason, I became worried. I couldn't be certain as to whether i'd read it or not, so asked the question. At the end of the day, it's their money and they can do what they want with it. In the grand scheme of things, the revenue stream from our existence in the PL is probably now maxed out, hence why is the probable reason for why Bet365 sponsor Ludogorets, a club who dominate their league in Bulgaria and have won their title I believe 6 times in a row. They are pretty much guaranteed a Champions League qualification fixture or two in the very least and have qualified properly a few times. Champions League exposure is a level up again and something they won't get as cheaply no doubt at Stoke, if at all, as they do over there. They are incredible business people. I think one of them is. And I wish she'd take more of an interest in us.....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 15:06:26 GMT
It's been said before, but how could anyone trust Mark Hughes with a large transfer sum. Three players with big fees (for us anyway) have proven less than successful. Time for him to be moved on methinks.
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Post by kustokie on Oct 22, 2017 15:09:48 GMT
We don’t really know if the willingness to spend money is there or not. We don’t really know what players we have approached that received a better offer. We don’t know how many players looked at the stadium, the facilities, the support staff, the coaches, the manager, the owner and location and just said “nah, I can do better”. The players are part of a very small, tight-knit community and they talk to each other all the time and occasionally somebody let’s something slip. We know Charlie Adam told Damien Delph that he would enjoy it at Stoke but advised him to stay where he was. On top of that, the key selling point for the team has to be the manager. Does he have a vision for the team and does he have a plan for ME. Hughes had some success in the beginning and signed some players we would never have dreamed of like Arnie, Bojan and Shaquiri. He seems to have lost his way; we don’t seem to attracting those players anymore, except on loan and we are either scrapping the barrel or making desperation buys for players like Wimmer, Imbula and paying way over the top.
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Post by Pugsley on Oct 22, 2017 15:24:11 GMT
It's been said before, but how could anyone trust Mark Hughes with a large transfer sum. Three players with big fees (for us anyway) have proven less than successful. Time for him to be moved on methinks. Saying things 300 times won't make it happen any sooner. I questioned Coates and whether he should step aside earlier in the year and got slaughtered for it. We need radical change from top to bottom. And for anyone who thinks that getting a new manager in will suddenly release 10's of millions of pounds for new players they are living in cloud cuckoo land.
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Post by mozzer on Oct 22, 2017 16:27:17 GMT
It's been said before, but how could anyone trust Mark Hughes with a large transfer sum. Three players with big fees (for us anyway) have proven less than successful. Time for him to be moved on methinks. Saying things 300 times won't make it happen any sooner. I questioned Coates and whether he should step aside earlier in the year and got slaughtered for it. We need radical change from top to bottom. And for anyone who thinks that getting a new manager in will suddenly release 10's of millions of pounds for new players they are living in cloud cuckoo land. Not so sure pugs, investment is needed and quickly but how much is needed to save us I am unsure, people kept talking complete horse shit and saying we had the basis of a good squad, we need a few players to retain our prem status and then build again, how many players have been deemed a flop under Hughes, were they a flop or were they mismanaged
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Post by sufolkstokie on Oct 22, 2017 16:34:54 GMT
What Bet365 bring to the city is the close to the modern day Royal Doulton, Wedgwood
However it is my opinion that for the club, Mr Coates senior needs to be made life long honorary president and some fresh thinking needs to be injected to run the club and look at every aspect from youth development, to recruiting to a new manager
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 22, 2017 16:37:35 GMT
What Bet365 bring to the city is the close to the modern day Royal Doulton, Wedgwood However it is my opinion that for the club, Mr Coates senior needs to be made life long honorary president and some fresh thinking needs to be injected to run the club and look at every aspect from youth development, to recruiting to a new manager Very much so! You can tell that we're a Peter run company and they're run by a dynamic forward thinking businesswoman. The two businesses are like chalk and cheese with how they're run.
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Post by sufolkstokie on Oct 22, 2017 16:40:45 GMT
What Bet365 bring to the city is the close to the modern day Royal Doulton, Wedgwood However it is my opinion that for the club, Mr Coates senior needs to be made life long honorary president and some fresh thinking needs to be injected to run the club and look at every aspect from youth development, to recruiting to a new manager Very much so! You can tell that we're a Peter run company and they're run by a dynamic forward thinking businesswoman. The two businesses are like chalk and cheese with how they're run. Sadly yes. What Mr C has achieved with his backing no one can dispute. But now it just feels like it is going off the rails and no one is prepared to tell dad/granddad that he should take more of a back seat role
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Oct 22, 2017 16:41:11 GMT
It's been said before, but how could anyone trust Mark Hughes with a large transfer sum. Three players with big fees (for us anyway) have proven less than successful. Time for him to be moved on methinks. Saying things 300 times won't make it happen any sooner. I questioned Coates and whether he should step aside earlier in the year and got slaughtered for it. We need radical change from top to bottom. And for anyone who thinks that getting a new manager in will suddenly release 10's of millions of pounds for new players they are living in cloud cuckoo land. Spot on no one could make this bargain bucket squad into anything but strugglers , it is quite literally now a minumium £60m investment to get us into the top half , interesting if we'd taken sakho and benteke 18 months ago instead of the daft pursuit of the cheap but broken Berahino , plus Redmond we'd be about £40m worse off and a midfielder and right back short . its not hard to see chronic under investment and a disasterously executed transfer strategy are the root causes of our spiral . we'd also be hopelessly equipped in the championship without butland zouma and Shaq
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Post by StokeOnTour on Oct 22, 2017 16:45:26 GMT
Does Peter actually have more of a say than John these days? I imagine they both still have to run all decisions past Denise anyway
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 22, 2017 16:52:09 GMT
Us being in the Premiership is what’s raking Coates his money in from our global exposure, the fact he seems to be risking this through sheer blind faith is actually rather disturbing. Spot on imo. But doesn’t it follow that now our Premiership survival is threatened he will move to replace the manager and those who are running the club?
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Oct 22, 2017 16:55:44 GMT
Us being in the Premiership is what’s raking Coates his money in from our global exposure, the fact he seems to be risking this through sheer blind faith is actually rather disturbing. Spot on imo. But doesn’t it follow that our now our Premiership survival is threatened he will move to replace the manager and those who are running the club? He should have done it last year, he didn’t, he should have done it at the end of last season, he didn’t, he should do it immediately, but he probably won’t. He needs to give his head a wobble, I’ve said elsewhere that the longer this goes on now the more culpable Coates becomes for the situation we’re in.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 17:04:17 GMT
Us being in the Premiership is what’s raking Coates his money in from our global exposure, the fact he seems to be risking this through sheer blind faith is actually rather disturbing. Spot on imo. But doesn’t it follow that our now our Premiership survival is threatened he will move to replace the manager and those who are running the club? We've lost a game 2-1 in a shit fashion, and to a shit team. Worth mentioning that two certain penalties were denied. This season hasn't been all doom and gloom at all, in fact it has shown great promise. If anyone on this MB believes that Peter Coates is getting even close to sacking his manager, you really need to check yourselves. Maybe when you have supported SCFC for a few years longer, you will come to understand how this club is managed by the Board. It isn't going to happen and it shouldn't happen. Even Klopp is looking dodgy now ....
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Post by miggoscfc on Oct 22, 2017 17:08:32 GMT
Does Peter actually have more of a say than John these days? I imagine they both still have to run all decisions past Denise anyway Denise isn't on the Board. And whilst things are not great at the moment the amount of disrespect on this forum is unbelievable. The board of directors will be well aware of the discontent in the stands but they also are not the type to pull any triggers at the first sign of danger. Don't think for one second that they won't take the necessary action if they need to and bring somebody new in they were well aware when Pulis time was up and I'm sure they are well on their way to making back up plans if Hughes was ready to go if I had to hazard a guess that he's got the next 4 games to save his job, but some of you really need to give your head a wobble suggesting that the Coates should leave I mean ffs we are stoke city a mid table premiership team that will have good and bad spells. I'm far from happy but the way some of you go on we should be taking 3 points from every game and threatening the top 4. Get real we are a mid table team and will be for a good long while yet we simply are not big enough to ever compete with the top 7/8 teams in this league.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 17:13:13 GMT
Before we get too carried away with the idea that bet365 are riding on the coat-tails of Stoke City there is a simple equation which we’d all do well to remember; bet365 disappears tomorrow = Stoke City with serious financial issues to contend with. Stoke City disappears tomorrow = bet365 continues on its merry way without batting an eyelid.That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. Stoke City are a low profile, middling, top flight club with one major trophy to its name and a stadium with a stadium capacity below 30,000. bet365 is a wold leader in its field with a massive profile across the entire planet. They’re giving more to the club than they’re getting from it. And to correct one earlier post. It is true that bet365 loans the club money but it is most definitely NOT true that it all gets paid back. In actual fact the Coates family wrote off something like £80m in loans in the seasons immediately after promotion, converting the amount instead into extra shares. I do agree that action needs to be taken and that our owners have to act but we need to deal with the reality of the situation and not go dealing in wishful thinking. So what are those shares worth? Not an amount to be written of I'll wager. What is the global advertising worth which there would be none without us in the prem. Don't underestimate what the Coates get out of the club, Sponsoring the BT football programme would be gone if we are relegated. This programme is sponsored by the failures at bet365 doesn't have a good vibe does it? People want to be associated with success not failure especially when you are advertising a Brand. It's a two way street and I am astonished that they are prepared to allow Stoke City to become a laughing stock week after week. After all it all rubs off on their brand. A side of me expects us to get relegated then cut adrift by Bet365, it certainly fits with the constant lack of spending window after window where on transfer windows you have to Google every signing we make. Hope I'm wrong but "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." ACD
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Post by mozzer on Oct 22, 2017 17:57:48 GMT
Does Peter actually have more of a say than John these days? I imagine they both still have to run all decisions past Denise anyway Denise isn't on the Board. And whilst things are not great at the moment the amount of disrespect on this forum is unbelievable. The board of directors will be well aware of the discontent in the stands but they also are not the type to pull any triggers at the first sign of danger. Don't think for one second that they won't take the necessary action if they need to and bring somebody new in they were well aware when Pulis time was up and I'm sure they are well on their way to making back up plans if Hughes was ready to go if I had to hazard a guess that he's got the next 4 games to save his job, but some of you really need to give your head a wobble suggesting that the Coates should leave I mean ffs we are stoke city a mid table premiership team that will have good and bad spells. I'm far from happy but the way some of you go on we should be taking 3 points from every game and threatening the top 4. Get real we are a mid table team and will be for a good long while yet we simply are not big enough to ever compete with the top 7/8 teams in this league. Pull any triggers at the First signs of danger....have you been living on the moon for the last 2 years, we are gash and have been running around like headless chickens for the last 2 years with no idea or game plan
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Post by chonburipotter on Oct 22, 2017 18:20:54 GMT
Spot on imo. But doesn’t it follow that our now our Premiership survival is threatened he will move to replace the manager and those who are running the club? We've lost a game 2-1 in a shit fashion, and to a shit team. Worth mentioning that two certain penalties were denied. This season hasn't been all doom and gloom at all, in fact it has shown great promise. If anyone on this MB believes that Peter Coates is getting even close to sacking his manager, you really need to check yourselves. Maybe when you have supported SCFC for a few years longer, you will come to understand how this club is managed by the Board. It isn't going to happen and it shouldn't happen. Even Klopp is looking dodgy now .... What’s Klopp got to do with anything?
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Post by mozzer on Oct 22, 2017 18:21:15 GMT
Spot on imo. But doesn’t it follow that our now our Premiership survival is threatened he will move to replace the manager and those who are running the club? We've lost a game 2-1 in a shit fashion, and to a shit team. Worth mentioning that two certain penalties were denied. This season hasn't been all doom and gloom at all, in fact it has shown great promise. If anyone on this MB believes that Peter Coates is getting even close to sacking his manager, you really need to check yourselves. Maybe when you have supported SCFC for a few years longer, you will come to understand how this club is managed by the Board. It isn't going to happen and it shouldn't happen. Even Klopp is looking dodgy now .... Unfortunately I think that you could be right, i am not even sure who is at fault, what I do know is that this club is currently in turmoil with people burying there heads in the sand, it is not about yesterday, it is not about our 7 goal drubbing at man city, it is about the last 2 years of abject tactics and a transfer policy that stinks of cheap deals and failed big money signings, I can deal with relegation no problem in fact I could actually enjoy stoke playing in the championship and competing rather than existing, Oooh I'm 51 does that give me enough time supporting stoke to have a valid view even though it is different to yours
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 18:22:14 GMT
We've lost a game 2-1 in a shit fashion, and to a shit team. Worth mentioning that two certain penalties were denied. This season hasn't been all doom and gloom at all, in fact it has shown great promise. If anyone on this MB believes that Peter Coates is getting even close to sacking his manager, you really need to check yourselves. Maybe when you have supported SCFC for a few years longer, you will come to understand how this club is managed by the Board. It isn't going to happen and it shouldn't happen. Even Klopp is looking dodgy now .... What’s Klopp got to do with anything? Another failed manager after the result today? Was the question too difficult?
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Post by chonburipotter on Oct 22, 2017 18:24:06 GMT
What’s Klopp got to do with anything? Another failed manager after the result today? Was the question too difficult? What was your question? It looked like a statement to me
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Post by spitthedog on Oct 22, 2017 18:26:20 GMT
Dyche can be a successful manager for us for the next 5 years at least. We have to act today before Leicester nip in ahead of us. Would he come here, though? Why would he come here?
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