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Post by Trouserdog on Feb 26, 2017 18:34:08 GMT
Predictably, the Hughes Out calls have started again after an admittedly shite performance today. The following post is taken from my article in the fanzine a few issues back. I expect that barring some some sort of catastrophic collapse, this will be my view on the manager's position for some time yet.
It’s fair to say that we’re looking at a likely finish somewhere between 10th and 15th this season and a points total below the 50 point mark. Not as good as previous campaigns in terms of position, points or entertainment. However, this is the first season under Hughes that hasn’t been, overall, a positive one. Is the mind-frame of the modern supporter really as impatient as demanding that a successful manager’s first indifferent season should result in him being sacked?
Well, for those who answer ‘yes’, I’d like to draw your attention to Stoke’s final league positions in The Waddington era, particularly those years in the late sixties after we’d been promoted in 1962-63 and before the halcyon days of the mid-Seventies:
Year Points Total Finishing Position
1963/64 38 17th
1964/65 42 11th
1965/66 42 10th
1966/67 41 12th
1967/68 35 18th
1968/69 33 19th
1969/70 45 9th
1970/71 37 13th
1971/72 35 17th
1972/73 38 15th
1973/74 46 5th
1974/75 49 5th
1975/76 41 12th
1976/77 34 21st (RELEGATED)
As you can see, The Waddington-era wasn’t one long party of beer, skittles and year-on-year progress. The first three seasons were each more successful than the last, but they were followed by three years of continual regression, where points totals and league positions got progressively worse every year. However, the pattern was stopped with a 9th place finish in 69/70 before, once again, the team slid down the table for a few years. Between 1973 and 1975 though, double 5th place finishes were achieved by what most people around at the time consider to be our best ever side.
Only being born in 1978, obviously I wasn’t around to witness this first hand, but I asked my father (a regular attendee in those days, as he still is) what the mood was like in the stands during the late sixties when the team, after an initial burst of progress, seemed to be on the slide. He said that he couldn’t remember any talk of Waddington being sacked, just the usual week-to-week grumbling that football supporters tend to emit however their team’s performing. However, whether fans were whinging or not about Waddington’s team in that spell, the fact is that anyone who wanted him sacked would have been left with egg on their face by the period of success that followed.
Waddington is rightly held in high esteem by all Stoke fans; even for people too young to have been there at the time it’s obvious from his record that the man was a very good football manager. However, scattered throughout all the good years were some average ones and a couple of outright bad ones. The board and the fans stuck with him though, obviously realising that a good manager is a good manager and should be rewarded with time and patience to get things right again.
Would that happen nowadays? Probably not, as it seems that as soon as any team goes through any sort of prolonged sticky patch, fans start whipping themselves up into a frenzy and demanding that the boss pays for it with his job. It’s fortunate that people didn’t do that in 1968 or 1969 though, otherwise we wouldn’t have won a League Cup, wouldn’t have finished 5th, wouldn’t have signed Alan Hudson and wouldn’t have faced the likes of Ajax in European competition.
When you have a rank bad manager in charge of your side, it’s a good idea to get rid of them at the earliest opportunity as they’ll only take you one way. Could anybody, taking his track record at every club he’s been at (barring the basket case that was QPR), claim that Mark Hughes is a bad manager? I’m not saying that he’s in Tony Waddington’s class, but bad managers do not guide relatively small clubs to top-half finishes in The Premier League three seasons in a row- it just doesn’t happen.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that everything in the garden is rosy and we should all sit there happy-clapping every dismal bit of football that we see under Mark Hughes, and we should certainly question some of his recent transfer dealings, but for God’s sake people, please try to get a grip. A club like Stoke cannot keep churning out continual progress- otherwise we’d win the league in about seven or eight years- and we all know that’s not going to happen. We’re bound to have some seasons where the squad needs to be rebuilt and a period of consolidation is needed, or maybe even a lower finish in order that we bed in new players and new ideas so that we can move forwards again in the future.
The culture of hysterical tantrums and unrealistic demands seems very much a modern phenomenon- the 21st Century an age of instant gratification, where nobody is prepared to wait for anything or accept that things in life cannot always be perfect. Everything is always somebody’s fault, someone has to be blamed and hounded, and mistakes just aren’t allowed to happen.
Well, here’s what could happen if we don’t give a proven manager the time and space to sort things out: we sack him and appoint one of the absolute duffers who go round the managerial merry-go-round year upon year, ballsing up at one club after another, and if we do get sucked through that relegation trapdoor as a result, then it could take another twenty-three year absence (or even longer) before we come back again. Don’t think it can happen? Ask Leeds, ask Wolves, ask Portsmouth, ask Charlton, ask Coventry City, ask Derby County. I could go on.
Whatever your views are on Mark Hughes’s team selections, his transfers or his tactics, all I ask is that we as fans- the only people with the success of the football club truly in our hearts- exercise a little more patience and tinge our expectations with a dose of realism. Hound out a good manager during his first bad spell and we could pay the consequences for generations to come. Give him time and support, a bit of leeway, and he’s already shown that he has the ability to get us moving in the right direction again.
One day, the time may come when Mark Hughes’s time really is up and the man his simply run out of ideas or motivation to keep Stoke City performing at a successful level. When that happens, then like all managers, it’ll be time for both parties to move on- even Tony Waddington reached that point, although the circumstances surrounding his departure were also laced with the terrible luck of The Butler Street Stand roof blowing off and the subsequent sale of half his team. At this stage, one below average season is really not grounds for the axe to fall.
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Post by bathstoke on Feb 26, 2017 18:41:37 GMT
I'm not reading that without me glasses
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 18:47:38 GMT
It's not just one average season though is it. We were not at all convincing last season either and I'm still amazed we finished ninth. For me the football is as bad as anything the previous manager served up.
Factor in that none of his big signings have pulled up any trees either and IMO the manager is out of credit. It will be very interesting to see how season ticket sales go. It's been pretty shit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 18:49:37 GMT
I don't think the way football fans are these days is any different to how they've always been. Well as long as I've been going to games anyway. You have those that stand by a manager no matter what. You have those that will never like a manager from the very start and never change their minds no matter what. You have those that will change their minds week on week depending on results. And you have those that will back a manager until they believe his time is up because they can see his failings and that he is repeatedly making the same bad decisions and they don't believe he has the ability to turn it around anymore. I'd like to think I'm in the last category  |
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Feb 26, 2017 18:50:59 GMT
Yep I agree.
Earlier in the season I was calling for him to go, because I thought he might take us down.
We are a mid table club though and if we want to go past the likes of Everton and Man u to get into Europe we would need to spend a ridiculous amount of money.
But Hughes does have some issues. Our start to the last couple of seasons has been pretty disgraceful and our performances against the big boys this last year or so has shown that we are being left behind - we do not have the pace in the team needed to compete against the best and we are getting too many thrashings.
We don't look in danger of going down and have been very efficient if perhaps very uninspiring in despatching teams at the lower end this season, so there is no reason to call for his head, he has to be given the chance to remedy the imbalance in the squad this sumer.
Another nightmare start to next season and I will be calling for his head again though.
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shooters
Youth Player
POTTER POWER
Posts: 474
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Post by shooters on Feb 26, 2017 18:51:20 GMT
Went to a charlton game yesterday. .10k crowd,second 1-0 home defeat in a row, could just about see and hear 200 Bury fans celebrating, booing at the Bury goal, booing at half time and the final whistle, chairman out chants etc..sacking curbishley when they were steady in the prem but got greedy seems to be the lesson from history I took from yesterday. .boy was the football dire as well.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Feb 26, 2017 18:54:23 GMT
I'm not reading that without me glasses Glasses of what? |
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Post by Trouserdog on Feb 26, 2017 18:55:18 GMT
It's not just one average season though is it. We were not at all convincing last season either and I'm still amazed we finished ninth. For me the football is as bad as anything the previous manager served up. Factor in that none of his big signings have pulled up any trees either and IMO the manager is out of credit. It will be very interesting to see how season ticket sales go. It's been pretty shit. And if the board had pulled the plug on Waddo in '69 after a 19th place finish.... |
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Post by bathstoke on Feb 26, 2017 18:55:58 GMT
I'm not reading that without me glasses Glasses of what? You know me too well. You're not MrsBath R U!?! |
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Post by riccyfuller93 on Feb 26, 2017 18:57:15 GMT
Predictably, the Hughes Out calls have started again after an admittedly shite performance today. The following post is taken from my article in the fanzine a few issues back. I expect that barring some some sort of catastrophic collapse, this will be my view on the manager's position for some time yet.It’s fair to say that we’re looking at a likely finish somewhere between 10th and 15th this season and a points total below the 50 point mark. Not as good as previous campaigns in terms of position, points or entertainment. However, this is the first season under Hughes that hasn’t been, overall, a positive one. Is the mind-frame of the modern supporter really as impatient as demanding that a successful manager’s first indifferent season should result in him being sacked? Well, for those who answer ‘yes’, I’d like to draw your attention to Stoke’s final league positions in The Waddington era, particularly those years in the late sixties after we’d been promoted in 1962-63 and before the halcyon days of the mid-Seventies: Year Points Total Finishing Position
1963/64 38 17th
1964/65 42 11th
1965/66 42 10th
1966/67 41 12th
1967/68 35 18th
1968/69 33 19th
1969/70 45 9th
1970/71 37 13th
1971/72 35 17th
1972/73 38 15th
1973/74 46 5th
1974/75 49 5th
1975/76 41 12th
1976/77 34 21st (RELEGATED) As you can see, The Waddington-era wasn’t one long party of beer, skittles and year-on-year progress. The first three seasons were each more successful than the last, but they were followed by three years of continual regression, where points totals and league positions got progressively worse every year. However, the pattern was stopped with a 9th place finish in 69/70 before, once again, the team slid down the table for a few years. Between 1973 and 1975 though, double 5th place finishes were achieved by what most people around at the time consider to be our best ever side. Only being born in 1978, obviously I wasn’t around to witness this first hand, but I asked my father (a regular attendee in those days, as he still is) what the mood was like in the stands during the late sixties when the team, after an initial burst of progress, seemed to be on the slide. He said that he couldn’t remember any talk of Waddington being sacked, just the usual week-to-week grumbling that football supporters tend to emit however their team’s performing. However, whether fans were whinging or not about Waddington’s team in that spell, the fact is that anyone who wanted him sacked would have been left with egg on their face by the period of success that followed. Waddington is rightly held in high esteem by all Stoke fans; even for people too young to have been there at the time it’s obvious from his record that the man was a very good football manager. However, scattered throughout all the good years were some average ones and a couple of outright bad ones. The board and the fans stuck with him though, obviously realising that a good manager is a good manager and should be rewarded with time and patience to get things right again. Would that happen nowadays? Probably not, as it seems that as soon as any team goes through any sort of prolonged sticky patch, fans start whipping themselves up into a frenzy and demanding that the boss pays for it with his job. It’s fortunate that people didn’t do that in 1968 or 1969 though, otherwise we wouldn’t have won a League Cup, wouldn’t have finished 5th, wouldn’t have signed Alan Hudson and wouldn’t have faced the likes of Ajax in European competition. When you have a rank bad manager in charge of your side, it’s a good idea to get rid of them at the earliest opportunity as they’ll only take you one way. Could anybody, taking his track record at every club he’s been at (barring the basket case that was QPR), claim that Mark Hughes is a bad manager? I’m not saying that he’s in Tony Waddington’s class, but bad managers do not guide relatively small clubs to top-half finishes in The Premier League three seasons in a row- it just doesn’t happen. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that everything in the garden is rosy and we should all sit there happy-clapping every dismal bit of football that we see under Mark Hughes, and we should certainly question some of his recent transfer dealings, but for God’s sake people, please try to get a grip. A club like Stoke cannot keep churning out continual progress- otherwise we’d win the league in about seven or eight years- and we all know that’s not going to happen. We’re bound to have some seasons where the squad needs to be rebuilt and a period of consolidation is needed, or maybe even a lower finish in order that we bed in new players and new ideas so that we can move forwards again in the future. The culture of hysterical tantrums and unrealistic demands seems very much a modern phenomenon- the 21st Century an age of instant gratification, where nobody is prepared to wait for anything or accept that things in life cannot always be perfect. Everything is always somebody’s fault, someone has to be blamed and hounded, and mistakes just aren’t allowed to happen. Well, here’s what could happen if we don’t give a proven manager the time and space to sort things out: we sack him and appoint one of the absolute duffers who go round the managerial merry-go-round year upon year, ballsing up at one club after another, and if we do get sucked through that relegation trapdoor as a result, then it could take another twenty-three year absence (or even longer) before we come back again. Don’t think it can happen? Ask Leeds, ask Wolves, ask Portsmouth, ask Charlton, ask Coventry City, ask Derby County. I could go on. Whatever your views are on Mark Hughes’s team selections, his transfers or his tactics, all I ask is that we as fans- the only people with the success of the football club truly in our hearts- exercise a little more patience and tinge our expectations with a dose of realism. Hound out a good manager during his first bad spell and we could pay the consequences for generations to come. Give him time and support, a bit of leeway, and he’s already shown that he has the ability to get us moving in the right direction again. One day, the time may come when Mark Hughes’s time really is up and the man his simply run out of ideas or motivation to keep Stoke City performing at a successful level. When that happens, then like all managers, it’ll be time for both parties to move on- even Tony Waddington reached that point, although the circumstances surrounding his departure were also laced with the terrible luck of The Butler Street Stand roof blowing off and the subsequent sale of half his team. At this stage, one below average season is really not grounds for the axe to fall. Never fucking stopped mate. |
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Feb 26, 2017 18:57:38 GMT
You know me too well. You're not MrsBath R U!?! You wish. |
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Post by march4 on Feb 26, 2017 18:58:38 GMT
9 x 4 goal humiliations in 11 months.
Hughes isn't going to spend world record transfer fees nor world record wages to sort things out like Waddo did.
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Post by Trouserdog on Feb 26, 2017 19:02:05 GMT
9 x 4 goal humiliations in 11 months. Hughes isn't going to spend world record transfer fees nor world record wages to sort things out like Waddo did. He's not exactly going to be armed with a transfer kitty of three buttons and a Twix wrapper either though is he? Coates knows that the squad needs a massive overhaul and will back Hughes with the funds to oversee one. |
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Post by bathstoke on Feb 26, 2017 19:02:37 GMT
You know me too well. You're not MrsBath R U!?! You wish. Oooh, You teaseXx |
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Feb 26, 2017 19:12:56 GMT
You're lucky mate, carn't be arsed tonight.  |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 26, 2017 19:16:32 GMT
Of course as standards rise, as they undoubtedly have under Hughes, expectations rise and tolerance wains.
However, what we saw first half today was utterly fucking disgusting in my opinion. Disgusting shit.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Feb 26, 2017 19:22:11 GMT
I'm not necessarily in the Hughes out camp more WTF has happened since the Liverpool semi ?
We have had some fine times and some dull ones , the slow starts do my head in but the last year has been pretty much dull couldn't be arsed stuff and if we don't sort it somehow the Championship will beckon as will the kind of drop in season ticket sales that did for Pulis.
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Post by towraytek on Feb 26, 2017 19:26:25 GMT
9 x 4 goal humiliations in 11 months. Hughes isn't going to spend world record transfer fees nor world record wages to sort things out like Waddo did. He's not exactly going to be armed with a transfer kitty of three buttons and a Twix wrapper either though is he? Coates knows that the squad needs a massive overhaul and will back Hughes with the funds to oversee one. Don't you also think that before LMH is entrusted to spend millions on the likes of the underwhelming Shaqiri and Imbula, PC and family will want to see a return on the Academy investment which has so far offered nothing substantial in terms of first team players? Ek |
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Post by iglugluk on Feb 26, 2017 19:30:08 GMT
9 x 4 goal humiliations in 11 months. Hughes isn't going to spend world record transfer fees nor world record wages to sort things out like Waddo did. He's not exactly going to be armed with a transfer kitty of three buttons and a Twix wrapper either though is he? Coates knows that the squad needs a massive overhaul and will back Hughes with the funds to oversee one. Are you genuinely convinced that Hughes even has any real idea how to change things? To be honest I've completely lost faith in his ability to do so. He's been here long enough and so far the best signings he's made by a huge distance are the cheap ones. He doesn't appear to know what to do with decent money and that's apparent from other managerial positions he has held too. I would be looking for a new direction if I were the chairman ( although obviously I'm not  ). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 19:31:09 GMT
It's not just one average season though is it. We were not at all convincing last season either and I'm still amazed we finished ninth. For me the football is as bad as anything the previous manager served up. Factor in that none of his big signings have pulled up any trees either and IMO the manager is out of credit. It will be very interesting to see how season ticket sales go. It's been pretty shit. And if the board had pulled the plug on Waddo in '69 after a 19th place finish.... You can't compare the two really can you? Two different eras. Football then bears absolutely no resemblance to the game of today. I know Waddo spent a few quid in the 70s but in 1969 he had no where the comparative riches that Hughes has had. The football at home in the past eighteen months has been poor. Im absolutely sick to death of our season starting in October. Im sick of four nil beatings and I'm sick of the pedestrian, tippy tappy rubbish Hughes serves up. I honestly can't be bothered with it any more. I know what you're saying but for me it's stale and to be honest plain boring. I just want to see some pace,some heart and a little bit of excitement. |
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Post by chuckrocky on Feb 26, 2017 19:33:57 GMT
Went to a charlton game yesterday. .10k crowd,second 1-0 home defeat in a row, could just about see and hear 200 Bury fans celebrating, booing at the Bury goal, booing at half time and the final whistle, chairman out chants etc..sacking curbishley when they were steady in the prem but got greedy seems to be the lesson from history I took from yesterday. .boy was the football dire as well. It wouldn't be a discussion about sacking the manager without a Charlton warning. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 19:37:36 GMT
9 x 4 goal humiliations in 11 months. Hughes isn't going to spend world record transfer fees nor world record wages to sort things out like Waddo did. He's not exactly going to be armed with a transfer kitty of three buttons and a Twix wrapper either though is he? Coates knows that the squad needs a massive overhaul and will back Hughes with the funds to oversee one. So he can buy more Imbulas, Joselus,Shaqiris. The juries also out on Allen. Berahino could go either way. I wouldn't give him any more big money to be honest. I've completely lost faith in him after today. We're playing the fittest, fastest team in the league and he sends out Dad's fucking army. Just not good enough. |
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Post by WhyDelilah on Feb 26, 2017 19:38:44 GMT
9 x 4 goal humiliations in 11 months. Hughes isn't going to spend world record transfer fees nor world record wages to sort things out like Waddo did. He's not exactly going to be armed with a transfer kitty of three buttons and a Twix wrapper either though is he? Coates knows that the squad needs a massive overhaul and will back Hughes with the funds to oversee one. He's had massive amounts of money. He appears to have wasted it. |
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Post by bathstoke on Feb 26, 2017 19:39:43 GMT
You're lucky mate, carn't be arsed tonight. You R MrsBath |
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Feb 26, 2017 19:50:19 GMT
I'd be more inclined to stick with him if it looked like he had a plan or some sort of philosophy. I've got no idea what type of football he's trying to play and I don't think he does either.
We're ponderous and slow. Successful teams nowadays are dynamic and direct and move the ball quickly. All we do is pass it Martins-Indi, who passes it to Pieters, who passes it into midfield to Whelan, who goes backwards to Shawcross, who shits himself and goes back to Grant who boots it up field to no-one. Repeat to fade.
Everything to do with Stoke is boring at the moment and it needs a complete overhaul. I'm amazed we're still in the top half. We can only keep papering over the ever growing cracks for so long.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Feb 26, 2017 19:50:38 GMT
You're lucky mate, carn't be arsed tonight. You R MrsBath Caught me out. I never intended to come out on ere. Xx Like this.  |
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Post by Trouserdog on Feb 26, 2017 20:16:09 GMT
And if the board had pulled the plug on Waddo in '69 after a 19th place finish.... You can't compare the two really can you? Two different eras. Football then bears absolutely no resemblance to the game of today. I know Waddo spent a few quid in the 70s but in 1969 he had no where the comparative riches that Hughes has had. The football at home in the past eighteen months has been poor. Im absolutely sick to death of our season starting in October. Im sick of four nil beatings and I'm sick of the pedestrian, tippy tappy rubbish Hughes serves up. I honestly can't be bothered with it any more. I know what you're saying but for me it's stale and to be honest plain boring. I just want to see some pace,some heart and a little bit of excitement. There are many things you can't compare, but I don't see how a board being patient with a good manager in the 1970s is different to a board being patient with a good manager in the 2010s. The fact that many chairmen (and fans it seems) aren't prepared to ride out bad spells is a sad indictment on the modern game, and isn't a trap that we absolutely have to fall into just because every other club seems daft enough to do it. I don't disagree with the gripes you've got either, mate. The defending needs to improve, we need to have a much better idea about how we're attacking teams and the excitement factor needs to return. However, I just think we need to take a long-term view of the situation and not risk potential disaster because things have gone a bit stale. I've said it before but Berahino is such a key signing for Hughes- we need to devise and implement a gameplan that gets the best out of him at the earliest opportunity, with any new signings fitting into whatever blueprint Hughes comes up with. |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Feb 26, 2017 20:23:49 GMT
Normal service will be resumed in April and May with a nine match run in mainly against teams around and below us. Can see us finishing top ten on 45-49 points.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 26, 2017 20:27:35 GMT
I think its safe to say greenhoff has singularly missed Trouserdog's original point!
The only issues I have with Hughes, who is a perfectly good Premier League manager IMO, as is Tony Pulis, is that you don't really see him learning from previous games and adapting accordingly.
For instance, he's never got to grips with Pulis teams as he demonstrated when he came to us with Man City and now when we play WBA. I think he just doesn't get them!
The other issue is the openness of our play when we don't have the ball. Even games we've won, there are several moments before we take the lead where we could easily have been two down.
Other than those, he's OK.
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Feb 26, 2017 20:38:15 GMT
I'm not reading that without me glasses I ain't reading it at all unless someone puts it in a nutshell for me!!! My attention span is about one paragraph long at a push!!! |
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