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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Feb 26, 2017 21:05:17 GMT
I agree with that Trousers. I was saying to my dad and brother at half time today that it's weirdly underwhelming that we're finding ourselves inconsistently mid table this season - a position we'd have given our right arm for for most of my lifetime.
Generally speaking, clubs whose fans pressurise a medium unsuccessful manager out of their job end up replacing them with a less successful successor, then an even less capable replacement, then a joker, then a fraud, then a charlatan etc and before they know it they're closer to Division 4 than when they started the whole sack fest. That's the cycle we got ourselves into the 80's and 90's. That's exactly what the likes of Coventry and the Vale have done.
If your only knee jerk reaction to any setback season is to 'get rid' then you're embarking on a slippery slope. A manager who has made your club punch above their weight e.g. Ranieri has earned the right to have a couple of slump seasons or so and then reshape their side to put things right. If you boot them out before they've had chance to address their slump then you only have yourselves to blame when the successive jokers and charlatans who replace him wreak their havoc.
What more does Hughes have to do to earn a bit of patience from our fans?
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Post by dutchstokie on Feb 26, 2017 21:46:02 GMT
I'm not reading that without me glasses I ain't reading it at all unless someone puts it in a nutshell for me!!! My attention span is about one paragraph long at a push!!! Basically fella - dunna werrit, have a little patience
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 26, 2017 21:51:10 GMT
18 months of dreary football. Something had to change this season and it didn't. Now the issues look bigger.
We need a massive overhaul.
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Post by dieguito88 on Feb 26, 2017 22:03:07 GMT
You can't compare the two really can you? Two different eras. Football then bears absolutely no resemblance to the game of today. I know Waddo spent a few quid in the 70s but in 1969 he had no where the comparative riches that Hughes has had. The football at home in the past eighteen months has been poor. Im absolutely sick to death of our season starting in October. Im sick of four nil beatings and I'm sick of the pedestrian, tippy tappy rubbish Hughes serves up. I honestly can't be bothered with it any more. I know what you're saying but for me it's stale and to be honest plain boring. I just want to see some pace,some heart and a little bit of excitement. There are many things you can't compare, but I don't see how a board being patient with a good manager in the 1970s is different to a board being patient with a good manager in the 2010s. The fact that many chairmen (and fans it seems) aren't prepared to ride out bad spells is a sad indictment on the modern game, and isn't a trap that we absolutely have to fall into just because every other club seems daft enough to do it. I don't disagree with the gripes you've got either, mate. The defending needs to improve, we need to have a much better idea about how we're attacking teams and the excitement factor needs to return. However, I just think we need to take a long-term view of the situation and not risk potential disaster because things have gone a bit stale. I've said it before but Berahino is such a key signing for Hughes- we need to devise and implement a gameplan that gets the best out of him at the earliest opportunity, with any new signings fitting into whatever blueprint Hughes comes up with. 3412 for me.
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Feb 27, 2017 0:03:22 GMT
I ain't reading it at all unless someone puts it in a nutshell for me!!! My attention span is about one paragraph long at a push!!! Basically fella - dunna werrit, have a little patience Cheers Dutch!!! 👍 😉 Although, two more words and I possibly wouldn't have read yours either!!! 😂
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Post by thegift on Feb 27, 2017 0:12:36 GMT
I don't think the way football fans are these days is any different to how they've always been. Well as long as I've been going to games anyway. You have those that stand by a manager no matter what. You have those that will never like a manager from the very start and never change their minds no matter what. You have those that will change their minds week on week depending on results. And you have those that will back a manager until they believe his time is up because they can see his failings and that he is repeatedly making the same bad decisions and they don't believe he has the ability to turn it around anymore. I'd like to think I'm in the last category well the bad news is, it is the latter, he is repeatedly making the same mistakes week in week out. Look at spurs at home this year? same tactics, similar result.
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Post by Miles Offside on Feb 27, 2017 0:18:21 GMT
I don't think the two eras compare.
Probably a better comparison is Pulis's first seasons in the Premier League were good, then he lost it over his last season and a half.
Hughes's first couple of seasons with us were good, then he's lost it since the second half of last season.
It shouldn't be league placing that costs Hughes his job (if he does lose it, which I doubt he will), it's his transfer policy, team selections and capitulations. And too much of the "football" he's responsible for is just mind-numbing.
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Post by kustokie on Feb 27, 2017 3:41:24 GMT
That's all very well. However, Spurs had two days to prepare, Stoke had two weeks. Spurs looked fit, sharp, quick and ready to play from the KO. Stoke looked like they had just come off two weeks at the beach. Dreadful - what the hell did they work other than their suntan?
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Post by JoeinOz on Feb 27, 2017 3:44:21 GMT
There are some similarities with 1989.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 27, 2017 4:09:59 GMT
It's not just one average season though is it. We were not at all convincing last season either and I'm still amazed we finished ninth. For me the football is as bad as anything the previous manager served up. Factor in that none of his big signings have pulled up any trees either and IMO the manager is out of credit. It will be very interesting to see how season ticket sales go. It's been pretty shit. And if the board had pulled the plug on Waddo in '69 after a 19th place finish....
Mate you have absolutely no idea what would have happened if the board had pulled the plug on Waddo in '69 and to suggest that we wouldn't have got into Europe or won the League Cup as a result, is just wild speculation based on nothing more than you trying to make some sort of spurious link between the two eras.
What is really important, is the here and now and if you genuinely look at it objectively, we have been absolutely abject for at least twelve months now. I'm not concerned for one minute about us 'pushing on' or progressing beyond ninth but genuinely concerned that somehow we're appearing to be doing okay, when in reality, we've actually been pretty shit.
And when that happens, you have to consider how much 'variance' is a factor in our fortunes, I'd suggest it's pretty strong in our favour (based on what I'm seeing) at the moment but of course that can change incredibly swiftly ... and it is that with which we should be concerned.
Hughes is failing on so many fronts at the moment but of course if we were to replace him, would the next fella fair any better? We really don't know do we but that doesn't mean that Hughes isn't making a pigs ear of things at the moment.
He obviously needs to be given until the summer but at that time, we take stock, have a good think and make a decision, regardless of what the Stoke City board did in 1969.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Feb 27, 2017 5:09:51 GMT
You can't compare the two really can you? Two different eras. Football then bears absolutely no resemblance to the game of today. I know Waddo spent a few quid in the 70s but in 1969 he had no where the comparative riches that Hughes has had. The football at home in the past eighteen months has been poor. Im absolutely sick to death of our season starting in October. Im sick of four nil beatings and I'm sick of the pedestrian, tippy tappy rubbish Hughes serves up. I honestly can't be bothered with it any more. I know what you're saying but for me it's stale and to be honest plain boring. I just want to see some pace,some heart and a little bit of excitement. There are many things you can't compare, but I don't see how a board being patient with a good manager in the 1970s is different to a board being patient with a good manager in the 2010s. The fact that many chairmen (and fans it seems) aren't prepared to ride out bad spells is a sad indictment on the modern game, and isn't a trap that we absolutely have to fall into just because every other club seems daft enough to do it. I don't disagree with the gripes you've got either, mate. The defending needs to improve, we need to have a much better idea about how we're attacking teams and the excitement factor needs to return. However, I just think we need to take a long-term view of the situation and not risk potential disaster because things have gone a bit stale. I've said it before but Berahino is such a key signing for Hughes- we need to devise and implement a gameplan that gets the best out of him at the earliest opportunity, with any new signings fitting into whatever blueprint Hughes comes up with. The thing that has sadly changed the way everyone thinks is the money. In the 60s and 70s there wasn't a huge difference in income between the top 2 divisions because there was virtually no TV money and the vast majority of club income came from ticket sales. Consequently there was little difference in wages between the top half of the Second Division and bottom half of the First Division so relegation was unlikely to put the club at risk of long term financial trouble. This meant that clubs could afford to take a longer term view and stick with a long term vision even if it came with a risk of relegation in the short term. And without the media constantly drumming home the financial gap between the top 2 divisions and lots of examples of clubs who got relegated and then found themselves in financial difficulties when they didn't bounce straight back (Charlton, Coventry, Portsmouth, Bolton etc etc) fans also had more patience too and took a more pragmatic approach to the risk of relegation. It sounds cliche but football was genuinely more about the fun and love of it whereas nowadays it's a business and a brand that needs to protect it's value. Until the bubble bursts none of this will ever change. Chairmen and fans will panic at the first signs of relegation or potential relegation in the future.
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Post by Trouserdog on Feb 27, 2017 7:01:42 GMT
And if the board had pulled the plug on Waddo in '69 after a 19th place finish....
Mate you have absolutely no idea what would have happened if the board had pulled the plug on Waddo in '69 and to suggest that we wouldn't have got into Europe or won the League Cup as a result, is just wild speculation based on nothing more than you trying to make some sort of spurious link between the two eras.
What is really important, is the here and now and if you genuinely look at it objectively, we have been absolutely abject for at least twelve months now. I'm not concerned for one minute about us 'pushing on' or progressing beyond ninth but genuinely concerned that somehow we're appearing to be doing okay, when in reality, we've actually been pretty shit.
And when that happens, you have to consider how much 'variance' is a factor in our fortunes, I'd suggest it's pretty strong in our favour (based on what I'm seeing) at the moment but of course that can change incredibly swiftly ... and it is that with which we should be concerned.
Hughes is failing on so many fronts at the moment but of course if we were to replace him, would the next fella fair any better? We really don't know do we but that doesn't mean that Hughes isn't making a pigs ear of things at the moment.
He obviously needs to be given until the summer but at that time, we take stock, have a good think and make a decision, regardless of what the Stoke City board did in 1969.
But the whole point is that one bad season (if being 10th can be a bad season) doesn't mean things can't improve afterwards with the same manager. Hughes, like Waddo,is a proven manager.
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Post by Trouserdog on Feb 27, 2017 7:03:21 GMT
There are many things you can't compare, but I don't see how a board being patient with a good manager in the 1970s is different to a board being patient with a good manager in the 2010s. The fact that many chairmen (and fans it seems) aren't prepared to ride out bad spells is a sad indictment on the modern game, and isn't a trap that we absolutely have to fall into just because every other club seems daft enough to do it. I don't disagree with the gripes you've got either, mate. The defending needs to improve, we need to have a much better idea about how we're attacking teams and the excitement factor needs to return. However, I just think we need to take a long-term view of the situation and not risk potential disaster because things have gone a bit stale. I've said it before but Berahino is such a key signing for Hughes- we need to devise and implement a gameplan that gets the best out of him at the earliest opportunity, with any new signings fitting into whatever blueprint Hughes comes up with. The thing that has sadly changed the way everyone thinks is the money. In the 60s and 70s there wasn't a huge difference in income between the top 2 divisions because there was virtually no TV money and the vast majority of club income came from ticket sales. Consequently there was little difference in wages between the top half of the Second Division and bottom half of the First Division so relegation was unlikely to put the club at risk of long term financial trouble. This meant that clubs could afford to take a longer term view and stick with a long term vision even if it came with a risk of relegation in the short term. And without the media constantly drumming home the financial gap between the top 2 divisions and lots of examples of clubs who got relegated and then found themselves in financial difficulties when they didn't bounce straight back (Charlton, Coventry, Portsmouth, Bolton etc etc) fans also had more patience too and took a more pragmatic approach to the risk of relegation. It sounds cliche but football was genuinely more about the fun and love of it whereas nowadays it's a business and a brand that needs to protect it's value. Until the bubble bursts none of this will ever change. Chairmen and fans will panic at the first signs of relegation or potential relegation in the future. All true, but we're 10th...
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Post by andylgr on Feb 27, 2017 9:26:20 GMT
Take our last 3 games against Spurs. Whats frustrating is that we have learnt nothing from them, other than they are miles better than us. 3 times they've put 4 goals up us, I know Spurs are a good side, but thats unacceptable. They have players who are much quicker in the final third in their movement and their movenement of the ball. They have players running from midfield and from the full back areas and again yesterday they made us look pedestrian and we couldn't comabt it.
I watched Southampton play the shite too and their style of play is much faster with better support to the forwards too. I suppose in a nutshell what I'm saying is that we've seen some evolution from when TP left, but we cannot play a virtually static back 6 and rely on the 2 wingers, a no 10 and a striker to make the difference. We need to evolve our style of play and the players we bring in to fill positions otherwise we will be left behind.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 27, 2017 12:10:30 GMT
Take our last 3 games against Spurs. Whats frustrating is that we have learnt nothing from them, other than they are miles better than us. 3 times they've put 4 goals up us, I know Spurs are a good side, but thats unacceptable. They have players who are much quicker in the final third in their movement and their movenement of the ball. They have players running from midfield and from the full back areas and again yesterday they made us look pedestrian and we couldn't comabt it. I watched Southampton play the shite too and their style of play is much faster with better support to the forwards too. I suppose in a nutshell what I'm saying is that we've seen some evolution from when TP left, but we cannot play a virtually static back 6 and rely on the 2 wingers, a no 10 and a striker to make the difference. We need to evolve our style of play and the players we bring in to fill positions otherwise we will be left behind. The difference about yesterday's walloping is that Spurs didn't even have to break sweat to dismiss us. Their finishing was clinical but they didn't play amazingly well because they didn't have to. We were abject, gave the game to them on a plate in barely half an hour and lacked the ability and desire to get back into it. The fact they had a gruelling game on Thursday night and looked so much sharper and fitter than us really does beg the question what the fuck it was they were doing in Dubai last week.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 27, 2017 12:13:02 GMT
Take our last 3 games against Spurs. Whats frustrating is that we have learnt nothing from them, other than they are miles better than us. 3 times they've put 4 goals up us, I know Spurs are a good side, but thats unacceptable. They have players who are much quicker in the final third in their movement and their movenement of the ball. They have players running from midfield and from the full back areas and again yesterday they made us look pedestrian and we couldn't comabt it. I watched Southampton play the shite too and their style of play is much faster with better support to the forwards too. I suppose in a nutshell what I'm saying is that we've seen some evolution from when TP left, but we cannot play a virtually static back 6 and rely on the 2 wingers, a no 10 and a striker to make the difference. We need to evolve our style of play and the players we bring in to fill positions otherwise we will be left behind. The difference about yesterday's walloping is that Spurs didn't even have to break sweat to dismiss us. Their finishing was clinical but they didn't play amazingly well because they didn't have to. We were abject, gave the game to them on a plate in barely half an hour and lacked the ability and desire to get back into it. The fact they had a gruelling game on Thursday night and looked so much sharper and fitter than us really does beg the question what the fuck it was they were doing in Dubai last week. The Dubai thing is spurious (see what I did there) anyway! We've looked slow, lethargic, not unfit but not as fit as most of the league and not that sharp all season.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 27, 2017 12:21:49 GMT
Take our last 3 games against Spurs. Whats frustrating is that we have learnt nothing from them, other than they are miles better than us. 3 times they've put 4 goals up us, I know Spurs are a good side, but thats unacceptable. They have players who are much quicker in the final third in their movement and their movenement of the ball. They have players running from midfield and from the full back areas and again yesterday they made us look pedestrian and we couldn't comabt it. I watched Southampton play the shite too and their style of play is much faster with better support to the forwards too. I suppose in a nutshell what I'm saying is that we've seen some evolution from when TP left, but we cannot play a virtually static back 6 and rely on the 2 wingers, a no 10 and a striker to make the difference. We need to evolve our style of play and the players we bring in to fill positions otherwise we will be left behind. The difference about yesterday's walloping is that Spurs didn't even have to break sweat to dismiss us. Their finishing was clinical but they didn't play amazingly well because they didn't have to. We were abject, gave the game to them on a plate in barely half an hour and lacked the ability and desire to get back into it. The fact they had a gruelling game on Thursday night and looked so much sharper and fitter than us really does beg the question what the fuck it was they were doing in Dubai last week. Pretty much the same as every pre season under Hughes.
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Post by maliciousdamage on Feb 27, 2017 12:32:46 GMT
He's not exactly going to be armed with a transfer kitty of three buttons and a Twix wrapper either though is he? Coates knows that the squad needs a massive overhaul and will back Hughes with the funds to oversee one. So he can buy more Imbulas, Joselus,Shaqiris. The juries also out on Allen. Berahino could go either way. I wouldn't give him any more big money to be honest. I've completely lost faith in him after today. We're playing the fittest, fastest team in the league and he sends out Dad's fucking army. Just not good enough. I agree here totally when I saw the team I couldn't believe he had sent on Crouch, Adam and Whelan against one of the fastest, fittest sides in the Prem having the same team think us twice before. It really does beggar belief !!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 27, 2017 12:37:21 GMT
Mate you have absolutely no idea what would have happened if the board had pulled the plug on Waddo in '69 and to suggest that we wouldn't have got into Europe or won the League Cup as a result, is just wild speculation based on nothing more than you trying to make some sort of spurious link between the two eras.
What is really important, is the here and now and if you genuinely look at it objectively, we have been absolutely abject for at least twelve months now. I'm not concerned for one minute about us 'pushing on' or progressing beyond ninth but genuinely concerned that somehow we're appearing to be doing okay, when in reality, we've actually been pretty shit.
And when that happens, you have to consider how much 'variance' is a factor in our fortunes, I'd suggest it's pretty strong in our favour (based on what I'm seeing) at the moment but of course that can change incredibly swiftly ... and it is that with which we should be concerned.
Hughes is failing on so many fronts at the moment but of course if we were to replace him, would the next fella fair any better? We really don't know do we but that doesn't mean that Hughes isn't making a pigs ear of things at the moment.
He obviously needs to be given until the summer but at that time, we take stock, have a good think and make a decision, regardless of what the Stoke City board did in 1969.
But the whole point is that one bad season (if being 10th can be a bad season) doesn't mean things can't improve afterwards with the same manager. Hughes, like Waddo,is a proven manager. Waddo's tenure here and how the board acted at the time is no more relevant than that of any other manager at any other top flight club over the last fifty years and there will be plenty of examples of clubs wishing they had acted earlier rather than sticking with a manager until it was too late to counter your argument anyway. And it's not just one season is it? We've been poor since the Liverpool semi-final and it was quite mystifying that we still managed to finish 9th. (As I said) I think a lot of it is to do with 'variance' and at the moment we are very much on the positive side in that regard but it's important to realise that that can change very quickly and we could find ourselves in trouble very quickly if it did. Our 9th place finish last season and the fact that we sit 10th now should mean that on the whole we should look like a comfortable mid table side but on far too many occasions in the last 12 months we have looked like anything but a mid table side, I'm worried that the tipping point is actually incredibly small and we're pretending that it isn't. What is it specifically that you think Mark Hughes is getting right at the moment with regard to his tactics and transfers?
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Post by maliciousdamage on Feb 27, 2017 12:41:01 GMT
The difference about yesterday's walloping is that Spurs didn't even have to break sweat to dismiss us. Their finishing was clinical but they didn't play amazingly well because they didn't have to. We were abject, gave the game to them on a plate in barely half an hour and lacked the ability and desire to get back into it. The fact they had a gruelling game on Thursday night and looked so much sharper and fitter than us really does beg the question what the fuck it was they were doing in Dubai last week. The Dubai thing is spurious (see what I did there) anyway! We've looked slow, lethargic, not unfit but not as fit as most of the league and not that sharp all season. I'd agree we've looked unfit all season hence a slow start getting caught out on numerous occasions and I still say 90% of the injuries occur from not being fit and poor training. Actually Christ knows what they actually work on in training on a daily basis as it obviously isn't defending or even attacking judging by how often we venture into an opponents box!! By the looks of yesterday they spent last week smoking a big fat bong in Dubai and contemplating life running in slow motion!!!
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Post by jeycov on Feb 27, 2017 12:42:01 GMT
He's not exactly going to be armed with a transfer kitty of three buttons and a Twix wrapper either though is he? Coates knows that the squad needs a massive overhaul and will back Hughes with the funds to oversee one. Don't you also think that before LMH is entrusted to spend millions on the likes of the underwhelming Shaqiri and Imbula, PC and family will want to see a return on the Academy investment which has so far offered nothing substantial in terms of first team players? Ek We don't know that that's the case for sure? Because we are not a club that selects many u21 or even u18 players to feature Other successful clubs do! If we are not careful players will think twice before joining our academy if they see little opportunity of progression
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Post by devondumpling on Feb 27, 2017 13:32:40 GMT
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Post by MuddyWoody on Feb 27, 2017 13:49:56 GMT
It's not just one average season though is it. We were not at all convincing last season either and I'm still amazed we finished ninth. For me the football is as bad as anything the previous manager served up. Factor in that none of his big signings have pulled up any trees either and IMO the manager is out of credit. It will be very interesting to see how season ticket sales go. It's been pretty shit. Totally agree. Second half of last season was shite and a massive opportunity missed. Ten shaftings by 3 or more goals in the league in the last 12 months is fucking unacceptable.
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Post by fca47 on Feb 27, 2017 13:54:09 GMT
Not really a comparison, Waddo had to sell his best players , when the roof blew off, whereas MH has had the backing of the board to buy players, the majority of whom he won't or can't play. At this point in time I wouldn't be bothered if he went, but on the other hand he doesn't deserve the sack. But we seem to have reached an impasse, as we did with TP ,where a parting of the ways might work for both parties.
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Post by spiderpuss on Feb 27, 2017 14:23:29 GMT
From the Guardian article above it is patently clear that buggering off to Dubai has done our team no good at all. As someone else has mentioned, it would have been better to play a few behind close doors games against local opposition, say somebody who wasn't involved in the FA cup. The news stories on the official site about the benefits of Dubai are complete bollocks. What do we see in Mark Hughes and do you think he really is the man to take us forward? Stokealona is in tatters and so we resort to some lame long ball game. Spurs must have wetting themselves how awful their Sunday opposition was.
I'm angry at how bad we are/have become, we've not really had a decent home performance for a long time. Other than Sunderland, this year's cannon fodder, When was the last time we put away the weaker teams in the division? It's a worrying situation and left to stagnate you fear it can only get worse, not better. Can LMH do better and turn things around, maybe? Can someone else do better, also maybe. Depends whether we want to stick or twist. Any more terrible performances like Sunday's will mean the twist option has to be explored.
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 27, 2017 15:02:52 GMT
Excellent opening post, even if it does show some lack of appreciation of how "things" were different in the 60s. When people look back now, they see images of "swinging 60s", Beatles, flower power, women's lib, Mary Quant, the 66 World Cup, etc. etc. That was true but the world was also still very monochrome for most people, it was still dominated by grey pipe smoking politicians, the white, mediocre, middle class male dominated society, secondary schools were single sex, and whilst new fashions were coming in rapidly, the world was still largely controlled by the post-war establishment. I remember going to Stoke matches and certainly the fans quickly forgot what Waddington had achieved to get the club back into the 1st Division and many were highly critical. New signings were quickly condemned. For example I remember an Crewe fan telling me one day in Nantwich how Waddington had signed John Mahoney "to save them from relegation" and some Stoke fans being highly critical of his frenetic style of dashing about the pitch when he first got into the side and being "useless". As it turns out he became an excellent player for Stoke in the 70s. There was constant criticism of "tippy-tappy" style of play, old players, and buying more old players supposedly past their best. The results were very inconsistent and thank goodness we had Banksy.
We went through a number of players, many now forgotten, before the settled team of the 70s emerged. Take left back for example; there were a number of players used in that position like Bentley and Elder, before finally Pejic made it his own. Waddington was generally cautious about introducing young players, who usually had to wait some time before they got their chance, even Denis Smith had to wait to get in the side. I can only think of John Farmer getting into the side very young and staying there till Banks arrived. Fans were highly critical in the late 60s of Waddington not blooding youngsters and I remember even Frank Mountford being frustrated with his boss's lack of faith in youth.
But Waddington stood by his guns and outlasted the critics, supported by the Chairman, and eventually a great team emerged with a combination of home grown talent and purchased players in key positions. Personally I was never critical of Waddington, despite his unpopularity in the late 60s and when we bought Greenhoff, having just brought back Ritchie, I knew we were in for great times.
Mark Hughes has brought in a string of very talented players, but as yet, has not found the right combination to create the synergy that good teams have, and been dogged with injuries. Personally I am prepared to be patient for success, but clearly in this age of "instant results" a lot of fans are not. Criticism is harsh and often vile behind a screen of anonymity. I believe the Chairman will stick with him as long as we maintain our level in the Prem., just as Kenwright stuck by Moyes at Everton. Changing a manager who consistently produces a top half result would be nonsensical and I think most of the football neutrals in the world would think we were mad if we sacked him.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 27, 2017 17:14:13 GMT
But the whole point is that one bad season (if being 10th can be a bad season) doesn't mean things can't improve afterwards with the same manager. Hughes, like Waddo,is a proven manager. Waddo's tenure here and how the board acted at the time is no more relevant than that of any other manager at any other top flight club over the last fifty years and there will be plenty of examples of clubs wishing they had acted earlier rather than sticking with a manager until it was too late to counter your argument anyway. And it's not just one season is it? We've been poor since the Liverpool semi-final and it was quite mystifying that we still managed to finish 9th. (As I said) I think a lot of it is to do with 'variance' and at the moment we are very much on the positive side in that regard but it's important to realise that that can change very quickly and we could find ourselves in trouble very quickly if it did. Our 9th place finish last season and the fact that we sit 10th now should mean that on the whole we should look like a comfortable mid table side but on far too many occasions in the last 12 months we have looked like anything but a mid table side, I'm worried that the tipping point is actually incredibly small and we're pretending that it isn't. What is it specifically that you think Mark Hughes is getting right at the moment with regard to his tactics and transfers? Presumably it is more relevant than all those others because Hughes, unlike the majority of others, has a proven track record both with us and with other Premier League clubs.
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Post by mcf on Feb 27, 2017 17:20:54 GMT
Results away at the top 6 clubs simply don't matter in the bigger picture for us.
If we sneak just a point or a win in any given season then it's 1 more point or win than we are probably on for.
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Post by Trouserdog on Feb 27, 2017 18:57:30 GMT
But the whole point is that one bad season (if being 10th can be a bad season) doesn't mean things can't improve afterwards with the same manager. Hughes, like Waddo,is a proven manager. Waddo's tenure here and how the board acted at the time is no more relevant than that of any other manager at any other top flight club over the last fifty years and there will be plenty of examples of clubs wishing they had acted earlier rather than sticking with a manager until it was too late to counter your argument anyway. And it's not just one season is it? We've been poor since the Liverpool semi-final and it was quite mystifying that we still managed to finish 9th. (As I said) I think a lot of it is to do with 'variance' and at the moment we are very much on the positive side in that regard but it's important to realise that that can change very quickly and we could find ourselves in trouble very quickly if it did. Our 9th place finish last season and the fact that we sit 10th now should mean that on the whole we should look like a comfortable mid table side but on far too many occasions in the last 12 months we have looked like anything but a mid table side, I'm worried that the tipping point is actually incredibly small and we're pretending that it isn't. What is it specifically that you think Mark Hughes is getting right at the moment with regard to his tactics and transfers? The crucial factor is that we know Hughes is a good manager. His track record is indisputably a good one. Getting rid of a good manager is pretty much making the admission that he's lost the plot to the point of no return- do you think we're at that point yet? There's a big difference between ditching someone who has done the business here and elsewhere, and showing some complete duffer the door. Pulis was an example of when a good manager had reached that point of no return- and it was a seriously hard decision to get rid of him. It involved us flirting dangerously close to relegation, on top of the poor performances and lack of entetainment, before Coates finally-and rightfully- pulled the trigger. Hughes hasn't even come close to that though. To answer your question, transfer wise he's brought in Lee Grant for £1 million, BMI on a season long loan, and Sobhi is starting to look like a steal for £6m. There are other deals that look questionable (I believe Allen will prove to be agood signing for £13m but isn't a No.10) while others just look like howlers (Imbula mainly). Transfer wise, like every other manager, it's a mixed bag. Tactically I think he's getting more wrong than right at the moment. Allen at No 10 has gone on at least three weeks too long, Adam in a midfield 2 is a liability etc. However, it can't be that much of a disaster if we've been picking up results that are sufficient to see us 10th in the league. I also think that given that he's not wedded to one system in the same way that TP was, there's every chance he'll switch things round once Saido is fit and try a few different things. Things can change quickly in football, and we've seen many examples of when teams' league positions are extremely flattering to them before the predicted collapse happens. I can't say that I'm not concerned with some of the things that have been going on, particularly defensively, but I can't bring myself to start ranting and raving about sacking a man who has the track record that MH has here...it just seems laughable.
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Post by Trouserdog on Feb 27, 2017 19:06:52 GMT
Excellent opening post, even if it does show some lack of appreciation of how "things" were different in the 60s. When people look back now, they see images of "swinging 60s", Beatles, flower power, women's lib, Mary Quant, the 66 World Cup, etc. etc. That was true but the world was also still very monochrome for most people, it was still dominated by grey pipe smoking politicians, the white, mediocre, middle class male dominated society, secondary schools were single sex, and whilst new fashions were coming in rapidly, the world was still largely controlled by the post-war establishment. I remember going to Stoke matches and certainly the fans quickly forgot what Waddington had achieved to get the club back into the 1st Division and many were highly critical. New signings were quickly condemned. For example I remember an Crewe fan telling me one day in Nantwich how Waddington had signed John Mahoney "to save them from relegation" and some Stoke fans being highly critical of his frenetic style of dashing about the pitch when he first got into the side and being "useless". As it turns out he became an excellent player for Stoke in the 70s. There was constant criticism of "tippy-tappy" style of play, old players, and buying more old players supposedly past their best. The results were very inconsistent and thank goodness we had Banksy. We went through a number of players, many now forgotten, before the settled team of the 70s emerged. Take left back for example; there were a number of players used in that position like Bentley and Elder, before finally Pejic made it his own. Waddington was generally cautious about introducing young players, who usually had to wait some time before they got their chance, even Denis Smith had to wait to get in the side. I can only think of John Farmer getting into the side very young and staying there till Banks arrived. Fans were highly critical in the late 60s of Waddington not blooding youngsters and I remember even Frank Mountford being frustrated with his boss's lack of faith in youth. But Waddington stood by his guns and outlasted the critics, supported by the Chairman, and eventually a great team emerged with a combination of home grown talent and purchased players in key positions. Personally I was never critical of Waddington, despite his unpopularity in the late 60s and when we bought Greenhoff, having just brought back Ritchie, I knew we were in for great times. Mark Hughes has brought in a string of very talented players, but as yet, has not found the right combination to create the synergy that good teams have, and been dogged with injuries. Personally I am prepared to be patient for success, but clearly in this age of "instant results" a lot of fans are not. Criticism is harsh and often vile behind a screen of anonymity. I believe the Chairman will stick with him as long as we maintain our level in the Prem., just as Kenwright stuck by Moyes at Everton. Changing a manager who consistently produces a top half result would be nonsensical and I think most of the football neutrals in the world would think we were mad if we sacked him. Cheers for that- I'd hoped my old man would have been able to remember things in the detail that you've been able to there, but he was a bit vague. (Probably pissed up all the time during the late 60s) The importance of being patient with a good manager, even through bad spells, is the message I was trying to get across. Sadly, it seems that a lot of people have turned into the sort of knee-jerk, impatient, 'modern fans' that we used to sneer at. Good managers are hard to come by, and I believe we've got one. We shouldn't just bin him the first season that things don't go rosily...it'd be a disgraceful way to go about our business.
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