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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 2, 2017 13:51:06 GMT
I was lucky enough to see the latter part of the Waddington era and be indoctrinated by my old man about the seasons I missed. In response to the OP some of the Boothen faithful did in fact moan and call for his head shamefully.
Lets not also forget that after finally assembling our best and most successful side he was victim of a board that had woefully under insured the ground and resulted in the selling of the heart of that team and Greenhoff in particular. At that point he walked. There was plenty of dire stuff in the early 1st division years and took a long time to build to the heights by signing forgotten journeyman pros and taking a few punts. Some of which didn't come off. Hughes is no Waddington but his record stands up. Consecutive top half finishes since his arrival beats anything in recent history. His win percentage is higher than Waddington in a different era, possibly one that Waddington would have struggled with. The only conclusions that I can see from history, unless we go back to the 1920s, is that this has been comparable and exceeded our highest ever league position. Achieved consistently in the most competitive and fiscally cut throat in the world. Secondly successful Stoke teams have always been built on consistency in the board room and in the dug out. Finally Waddington and the 1970s team is what made me a Stoke fan for life so I have enormous respect for what he did. But Mark Hughes is up there with the most successful since and he deserves his seat in the dugout. Yes, I can remember as a boy "Waddington out" ringing round the Boothen End as clear as day. When was the last time there was audible and consistent Manager Out chants at the ground? Joe Jordan?
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Post by alster on Mar 2, 2017 14:01:01 GMT
Yes, I can remember as a boy "Waddington out" ringing round the Boothen End as clear as day. When was the last there was audible and consistent Manager Out chants at the ground? Joe Jordan? Thank god that sort of atmosphere is self destructive.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 2, 2017 14:35:42 GMT
When was the last there was audible and consistent Manager Out chants at the ground? Joe Jordan? Thank god that sort of atmosphere is self destructive. Agreed, doesn't really happen any more does it. Its usually away fans and their lame sacked in the morning chants.
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Post by peterthornesboots on Mar 2, 2017 15:09:20 GMT
We have had 15 years or so of (near) continuous progression at Stoke - as supporters we have probably been overindulged with relative success.
This upward trajectory was never going to continue forever, especially in the ultra-competitive world of the Premier League.
We have definitely progressed under Hughes but now we have plateaued somewhat - mainly because we have probably found our level / glass ceiling.
I can't see us ever breaking into the top six with the financial clout that the big boys have, so in many respects the best we can hope for is seventh / eighth.
We are a mid-table club and we need to be realistic about what we are capable of.
On the flip side, Hughes needs to be doing a better in terms of our style of play and how he utilises certain players - but a mid-table finish doesn't mean we should sack him.
We need to back him in the summer and if that involves having a clear out of under-performing players (Imbula etc.) or those that can't break into the first team (Muniesa etc.) then so be it.
I think that this summer will be a big one. We aren't too far away from having a fantastic team and Hughes needs to remould the squad in the summer to make us more effective.
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Post by tonedepear on Mar 2, 2017 15:42:06 GMT
We have had 15 years or so of (near) continuous progression at Stoke - as supporters we have probably been overindulged with relative success. This upward trajectory was never going to continue forever, especially in the ultra-competitive world of the Premier League. We have definitely progressed under Hughes but now we have plateaued somewhat - mainly because we have probably found our level / glass ceiling. I can't see us ever breaking into the top six with the financial clout that the big boys have, so in many respects the best we can hope for is seventh / eighth. We are a mid-table club and we need to be realistic about what we are capable of. On the flip side, Hughes needs to be doing a better in terms of our style of play and how he utilises certain players - but a mid-table finish doesn't mean we should sack him. We need to back him in the summer and if that involves having a clear out of under-performing players (Imbula etc.) or those that can't break into the first team (Muniesa etc.) then so be it. I think that this summer will be a big one. We aren't too far away from having a fantastic team and Hughes needs to remould the squad in the summer to make us more effective. I'd be on board with that if he was showing any signs of having a system and buying players to fit it, but he seems to be have decided on some kind of continental flair system, stocked up with exciting centre mids, wide forwards and strikers and then abandoned the system completely for a sort of Pulis system but without any kind of defensive organisation. So if he spends this summer buying more "exciting" CMs, cut inside and shoot wingers and hopeless centre backs who he'll never play then I'll be most put out. To be perfectly honest if we start next season with him at the helm and it's not down to a late surge and 5th/6th place finish I'll be quite put out anyway.
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Post by crapslinger on Mar 2, 2017 15:51:46 GMT
We have had 15 years or so of (near) continuous progression at Stoke - as supporters we have probably been overindulged with relative success. This upward trajectory was never going to continue forever, especially in the ultra-competitive world of the Premier League. We have definitely progressed under Hughes but now we have plateaued somewhat - mainly because we have probably found our level / glass ceiling. I can't see us ever breaking into the top six with the financial clout that the big boys have, so in many respects the best we can hope for is seventh / eighth. We are a mid-table club and we need to be realistic about what we are capable of. On the flip side, Hughes needs to be doing a better in terms of our style of play and how he utilises certain players - but a mid-table finish doesn't mean we should sack him. We need to back him in the summer and if that involves having a clear out of under-performing players (Imbula etc.) or those that can't break into the first team (Muniesa etc.) then so be it. I think that this summer will be a big one. We aren't too far away from having a fantastic team and Hughes needs to remould the squad in the summer to make us more effective. He has had four seasons to remould our squad the one Coates stated is the best we have ever had, culminating in Whelan, Adam, Walters, Crouch and Cameron still as first team regulars.
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Post by alster on Mar 2, 2017 16:31:02 GMT
We have had 15 years or so of (near) continuous progression at Stoke - as supporters we have probably been overindulged with relative success. This upward trajectory was never going to continue forever, especially in the ultra-competitive world of the Premier League. We have definitely progressed under Hughes but now we have plateaued somewhat - mainly because we have probably found our level / glass ceiling. I can't see us ever breaking into the top six with the financial clout that the big boys have, so in many respects the best we can hope for is seventh / eighth. We are a mid-table club and we need to be realistic about what we are capable of. On the flip side, Hughes needs to be doing a better in terms of our style of play and how he utilises certain players - but a mid-table finish doesn't mean we should sack him. We need to back him in the summer and if that involves having a clear out of under-performing players (Imbula etc.) or those that can't break into the first team (Muniesa etc.) then so be it. I think that this summer will be a big one. We aren't too far away from having a fantastic team and Hughes needs to remould the squad in the summer to make us more effective. This is not a plateau we climbed the hill but have rolled back down the other side nearly back to the bottom.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Mar 2, 2017 16:57:25 GMT
We have had 15 years or so of (near) continuous progression at Stoke - as supporters we have probably been overindulged with relative success. This upward trajectory was never going to continue forever, especially in the ultra-competitive world of the Premier League. We have definitely progressed under Hughes but now we have plateaued somewhat - mainly because we have probably found our level / glass ceiling. I can't see us ever breaking into the top six with the financial clout that the big boys have, so in many respects the best we can hope for is seventh / eighth. We are a mid-table club and we need to be realistic about what we are capable of. On the flip side, Hughes needs to be doing a better in terms of our style of play and how he utilises certain players - but a mid-table finish doesn't mean we should sack him. We need to back him in the summer and if that involves having a clear out of under-performing players (Imbula etc.) or those that can't break into the first team (Muniesa etc.) then so be it. I think that this summer will be a big one. We aren't too far away from having a fantastic team and Hughes needs to remould the squad in the summer to make us more effective. I'd be on board with that if he was showing any signs of having a system and buying players to fit it, but he seems to be have decided on some kind of continental flair system, stocked up with exciting centre mids, wide forwards and strikers and then abandoned the system completely for a sort of Pulis system but without any kind of defensive organisation. So if he spends this summer buying more "exciting" CMs, cut inside and shoot wingers and hopeless centre backs who he'll never play then I'll be most put out. To be perfectly honest if we start next season with him at the helm and it's not down to a late surge and 5th/6th place finish I'll be quite put out anyway. So for you Hughes' job depends on us finishing 5th or 6th? Utter rot I'm afraid.
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Post by alster on Mar 2, 2017 17:03:27 GMT
I'd be on board with that if he was showing any signs of having a system and buying players to fit it, but he seems to be have decided on some kind of continental flair system, stocked up with exciting centre mids, wide forwards and strikers and then abandoned the system completely for a sort of Pulis system but without any kind of defensive organisation. So if he spends this summer buying more "exciting" CMs, cut inside and shoot wingers and hopeless centre backs who he'll never play then I'll be most put out. To be perfectly honest if we start next season with him at the helm and it's not down to a late surge and 5th/6th place finish I'll be quite put out anyway. So for you Hughes' job depends on us finishing 5th or 6th? Utter rot I'm afraid. Take away the nonsense about 5th or 6th and I wholeheartedly agree with him. If its such utter rot how come so many fans feel so disillusioned with the direction he's taking us in.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Mar 2, 2017 17:26:45 GMT
So for you Hughes' job depends on us finishing 5th or 6th? Utter rot I'm afraid. Take away the nonsense about 5th or 6th and I wholeheartedly agree with him. If its such utter rot how come so many fans feel so disillusioned with the direction he's taking us in. 5th or 6th utter rot. Makes me laugh how you consider yoursen to be the spokesman for the 'disaffected', give it a rest man.
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Post by alster on Mar 2, 2017 17:59:48 GMT
Take away the nonsense about 5th or 6th and I wholeheartedly agree with him. If its such utter rot how come so many fans feel so disillusioned with the direction he's taking us in. 5th or 6th utter rot. Makes me laugh how you consider yoursen to be the spokesman for the 'disaffected', give it a rest man. I won't give it a rest. I welcome the disaffected to our merry band the more the merrier. Hope we can grow to the point where we can force something to change be that the manager his football.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Mar 2, 2017 18:04:46 GMT
5th or 6th utter rot. Makes me laugh how you consider yoursen to be the spokesman for the 'disaffected', give it a rest man. I won't give it a rest. I welcome the disaffected to our merry band the more the merrier. Hope we can grow to the point where we can force something to change be that the manager his football. Are you Tony Mowbray?
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 2, 2017 18:11:11 GMT
We have had 15 years or so of (near) continuous progression at Stoke - as supporters we have probably been overindulged with relative success. This upward trajectory was never going to continue forever, especially in the ultra-competitive world of the Premier League. We have definitely progressed under Hughes but now we have plateaued somewhat - mainly because we have probably found our level / glass ceiling. I can't see us ever breaking into the top six with the financial clout that the big boys have, so in many respects the best we can hope for is seventh / eighth. We are a mid-table club and we need to be realistic about what we are capable of. On the flip side, Hughes needs to be doing a better in terms of our style of play and how he utilises certain players - but a mid-table finish doesn't mean we should sack him. We need to back him in the summer and if that involves having a clear out of under-performing players (Imbula etc.) or those that can't break into the first team (Muniesa etc.) then so be it. I think that this summer will be a big one. We aren't too far away from having a fantastic team and Hughes needs to remould the squad in the summer to make us more effective. The point is we were closer to being a fantastic team when we beat Liverpool 6-1. We needed a bit of tweaking and to replace N'Zonzi(hard, I know)and Hughes made a complete mess of trying to do it. He's had several transfer windows to improve us in key areas and failed. We haven't found our natural level, we've failed to build on what we had and regressed.
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Post by alster on Mar 2, 2017 18:11:30 GMT
I won't give it a rest. I welcome the disaffected to our merry band the more the merrier. Hope we can grow to the point where we can force something to change be that the manager his football. Are you Tony Mowbray? Why the fuck would I be Tony Mowbray? Does he want Hughes out too.
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Post by alster on Mar 2, 2017 18:17:54 GMT
We have had 15 years or so of (near) continuous progression at Stoke - as supporters we have probably been overindulged with relative success. This upward trajectory was never going to continue forever, especially in the ultra-competitive world of the Premier League. We have definitely progressed under Hughes but now we have plateaued somewhat - mainly because we have probably found our level / glass ceiling. I can't see us ever breaking into the top six with the financial clout that the big boys have, so in many respects the best we can hope for is seventh / eighth. We are a mid-table club and we need to be realistic about what we are capable of. On the flip side, Hughes needs to be doing a better in terms of our style of play and how he utilises certain players - but a mid-table finish doesn't mean we should sack him. We need to back him in the summer and if that involves having a clear out of under-performing players (Imbula etc.) or those that can't break into the first team (Muniesa etc.) then so be it. I think that this summer will be a big one. We aren't too far away from having a fantastic team and Hughes needs to remould the squad in the summer to make us more effective. The point is we were closer to being a fantastic team when we beat Liverpool 6-1. We needed a bit of tweaking and to replace N'Zonzi(hard, I know)and Hughes made a complete mess of trying to do it. He's had several transfer windows to improve us in key areas and failed. We haven't found our natural level, we've failed to build on what we had and regressed. He was always going to struggle to replace N'Zonzi like for like. He needed to replace Whelan with an upgrade to make up for the N'Zonzi replacement not having all the attributes of the man himself. His all round qualities were masking Whelans lack of attributes. It was a case of making 6 by deploying 3+3 instead of 4+2 if you get my drift, something he's totally failed to grasp. What he's done is made 6 by deploying 2+2+2 which has cost him a player in attack. Trouble is most of the 2's are deteriorating and produce quite a few 1.5 performances. Thats why we're worse through the centre despite having an additional player drawn from the attack.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 2, 2017 18:27:50 GMT
The point is we were closer to being a fantastic team when we beat Liverpool 6-1. We needed a bit of tweaking and to replace N'Zonzi(hard, I know)and Hughes made a complete mess of trying to do it. He's had several transfer windows to improve us in key areas and failed. We haven't found our natural level, we've failed to build on what we had and regressed. He was always going to struggle to replace N'Zonzi like for like. He needed to replace Whelan with an upgrade to make up for the N'Zonzi replacement not having all the attributes of the man himself. His all round qualities were masking Whelans lack of attributes. It was a case of making 6 by deploying 3+3 instead of 4+2 if you get my drift, something he's totally failed to grasp. What he's done is made 6 by deploying 2+2+2 which has cost him a player in attack. Trouble is most of the 2's are deteriorating and produce quite a few 1.5 performances. Thats why we're worse through the centre despite having an additional player drawn from the attack. Ha ha! That's a good way of putting it. I notice that other people on various threads are finally admitting that Whelan may be at least part of the problem in midfield. He's escaped for long enough, mind.
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Post by alster on Mar 2, 2017 18:31:58 GMT
He was always going to struggle to replace N'Zonzi like for like. He needed to replace Whelan with an upgrade to make up for the N'Zonzi replacement not having all the attributes of the man himself. His all round qualities were masking Whelans lack of attributes. It was a case of making 6 by deploying 3+3 instead of 4+2 if you get my drift, something he's totally failed to grasp. What he's done is made 6 by deploying 2+2+2 which has cost him a player in attack. Trouble is most of the 2's are deteriorating and produce quite a few 1.5 performances. Thats why we're worse through the centre despite having an additional player drawn from the attack. Ha ha! That's a good way of putting it. I notice that other people on various threads are finally admitting that Whelan may be at least part of the problem in midfield. He's escaped for long enough, mind. You can't blame the player he hasn't picked himself. Its been obvious for ages that he's far too limited for the league we're in, saying it makes people spit their dummy out but its true.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 18:37:36 GMT
Take away the nonsense about 5th or 6th and I wholeheartedly agree with him. If its such utter rot how come so many fans feel so disillusioned with the direction he's taking us in. 5th or 6th utter rot. Makes me laugh how you consider yoursen to be the spokesman for the 'disaffected', give it a rest man. He's anothet crank spouting spurious rambles.
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Post by ohbottom on Mar 2, 2017 18:39:47 GMT
We have had 15 years or so of (near) continuous progression at Stoke - as supporters we have probably been overindulged with relative success. This upward trajectory was never going to continue forever, especially in the ultra-competitive world of the Premier League. We have definitely progressed under Hughes but now we have plateaued somewhat - mainly because we have probably found our level / glass ceiling. I can't see us ever breaking into the top six with the financial clout that the big boys have, so in many respects the best we can hope for is seventh / eighth. We are a mid-table club and we need to be realistic about what we are capable of. On the flip side, Hughes needs to be doing a better in terms of our style of play and how he utilises certain players - but a mid-table finish doesn't mean we should sack him. We need to back him in the summer and if that involves having a clear out of under-performing players (Imbula etc.) or those that can't break into the first team (Muniesa etc.) then so be it. I think that this summer will be a big one. We aren't too far away from having a fantastic team and Hughes needs to remould the squad in the summer to make us more effective. This is not a plateau we climbed the hill but have rolled back down the other side nearly back to the bottom. Mate we're nowhere NEAR the bottom of where we were. I remember being stood outside Swindon's ground in the snow one January waiting for them to fix the floodlights. Now that WAS near the bottom!
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Post by alster on Mar 2, 2017 18:42:41 GMT
This is not a plateau we climbed the hill but have rolled back down the other side nearly back to the bottom. Mate we're nowhere NEAR the bottom of where we were. I remember being stood outside Swindon's ground in the snow one January waiting for them to fix the floodlights. Now that WAS near the bottom! My post was based on Hughes tenure. We made loads of progress now we're back about where we were when he started. We have better players but he's shit scared and playing pulisball.
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Post by stokefanone on Mar 2, 2017 19:44:28 GMT
In the mid seventies we had some of the highest earners in the top division, in the region of £500 a week (Shilts, Huds ets). This caused some disharmony with certain home grown players.
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Post by stokefanone on Mar 2, 2017 19:45:32 GMT
In the mid seventies we had some of the highest earners in the top division, in the region of £500 a week (Shilts, Huds ets). This caused some disharmony with certain home grown players.
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Post by tonedepear on Mar 3, 2017 14:11:21 GMT
So for you Hughes' job depends on us finishing 5th or 6th? Utter rot I'm afraid. Take away the nonsense about 5th or 6th and I wholeheartedly agree with him. If its such utter rot how come so many fans feel so disillusioned with the direction he's taking us in. FINE, call it 7th. i was exaggerating a bit but the point was hopefully fairly clear.
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Post by alster on Mar 3, 2017 14:20:25 GMT
Take away the nonsense about 5th or 6th and I wholeheartedly agree with him. If its such utter rot how come so many fans feel so disillusioned with the direction he's taking us in. FINE, call it 7th. i was exaggerating a bit but the point was hopefully fairly clear. I'm not overly fussed where we finish so long as its outside the bottom 3 I just want to see some football I can buy into whether that be blooding youngsters or just getting back to playing something that isn't pulisball.
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Post by tonedepear on Mar 3, 2017 14:55:42 GMT
FINE, call it 7th. i was exaggerating a bit but the point was hopefully fairly clear. I'm not overly fussed where we finish so long as its outside the bottom 3 I just want to see some football I can buy into whether that be blooding youngsters or just getting back to playing something that isn't pulisball. I just don't see much evidence of a plan other than start really badly and muddle through in the middle. As far as plans to remember how to defend or pick/trip over a system that works, or sign players to fit any kind of plan we're sorely lacking imvho. Agree, if we were blooding youngsters or doing something interesting that would help. My point about him leaving if we didn't finish in the top 6 was simply that I don't see any reason to stick with him when his long term plan seems to be muddle through helplessly, assuming there's a managerial merry go round that might free someone else desirable up in the close season. Obviously if we won loads of games between now and the end of the season then I would see a reason. If that even makes sense. I'm doubting myself now. Stupid game.
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Post by peterthornesboots on Mar 3, 2017 21:34:57 GMT
We have had 15 years or so of (near) continuous progression at Stoke - as supporters we have probably been overindulged with relative success. This upward trajectory was never going to continue forever, especially in the ultra-competitive world of the Premier League. We have definitely progressed under Hughes but now we have plateaued somewhat - mainly because we have probably found our level / glass ceiling. I can't see us ever breaking into the top six with the financial clout that the big boys have, so in many respects the best we can hope for is seventh / eighth. We are a mid-table club and we need to be realistic about what we are capable of. On the flip side, Hughes needs to be doing a better in terms of our style of play and how he utilises certain players - but a mid-table finish doesn't mean we should sack him. We need to back him in the summer and if that involves having a clear out of under-performing players (Imbula etc.) or those that can't break into the first team (Muniesa etc.) then so be it. I think that this summer will be a big one. We aren't too far away from having a fantastic team and Hughes needs to remould the squad in the summer to make us more effective. The point is we were closer to being a fantastic team when we beat Liverpool 6-1. We needed a bit of tweaking and to replace N'Zonzi(hard, I know)and Hughes made a complete mess of trying to do it. He's had several transfer windows to improve us in key areas and failed. We haven't found our natural level, we've failed to build on what we had and regressed. So what is our natural position?
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Post by crapslinger on Mar 3, 2017 21:45:05 GMT
The point is we were closer to being a fantastic team when we beat Liverpool 6-1. We needed a bit of tweaking and to replace N'Zonzi(hard, I know)and Hughes made a complete mess of trying to do it. He's had several transfer windows to improve us in key areas and failed. We haven't found our natural level, we've failed to build on what we had and regressed. So what is our natural position? Bending over and taking it doggy style when we play any top six team.
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Post by tesco85 on Mar 3, 2017 21:54:42 GMT
Time 4 change I think
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 3, 2017 23:25:21 GMT
What is our "position" ; The last figures I could find:
Turnover£M
Burnley 79 Hull City 84 QPR 86 West Bromwich Albion 96 Stoke City 100 Sunderland 101 Crystal Palace102 Swansea City 104 Leicester City 104 Southampton 114 Aston Villa 116 West Ham United 121 Everton 126 Newcastle United 129
Tottenham Hotspur 196 Liverpool 298 Chelsea 319 Arsenal 345 Manchester City 352 Manchester United 395
Guardian graphic- Source: Club accounts for the year 2014-15
Turnover is a better measure of a clubs "resources" and ability to compete, than Twitter.
Mark Hughes tenure as manager is still short in real terms, even if it is not compared to other Prem clubs. But we all know that if you are a top 6 club and don't win something you will be out, so I guess Klopp will not be around much longer. Similarly if you go anywhere near the relegation zone you are liable to be sacked, no matter what you might have achieved.
It is unreasonable to expect a manager to improve a teams performance every year; we are talking about a game played by human beings, not a manufacturing factory. Ferguson had to regularly rebuild his sides. Hughes experiment with Stokalona has petered out, but I don't blame him for trying. The worst thing that has happened to Hughes during his tenure at Stoke is beating Liverpool 6-1. That was a fluke result and unlikely to be repeated for another half century, but it appears that it has become a bench mark for some people. People should take a look at the fortunes of Chelsea last season and Leicester this season, with the resources they had. Hughes has kept us in the top half of the table with much weaker resources. I believe he has earned our respect and patience to see what more he can deliver.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 4, 2017 0:21:28 GMT
The point is we were closer to being a fantastic team when we beat Liverpool 6-1. We needed a bit of tweaking and to replace N'Zonzi(hard, I know)and Hughes made a complete mess of trying to do it. He's had several transfer windows to improve us in key areas and failed. We haven't found our natural level, we've failed to build on what we had and regressed. So what is our natural position? I don't know if we have one. If clubs make the right signings they improve, if not they deteriorate. We could be as high as 7th or as low as 16th. I don't think we hit our ceiling, I think we fucked up an opportunity.
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