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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 10, 2016 11:45:25 GMT
I don't blame the player, I blame his manager. Surely Martinez will be gone by the end of the season and no other club will employ him. He's a professional though, he should realise what he's doing is wrong? Unless he's thick as pig shit?
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Post by Olgrligm on Apr 10, 2016 11:56:24 GMT
He'd be better off as Ryan's understudy at Stoke.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Apr 10, 2016 12:00:05 GMT
The raw potential is there and as he is only 21 you can see why Mourinho wanted to sign him for so much money.
Agree that Martinez and coaching at Everton is holding him back.
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Post by march4 on Apr 10, 2016 12:01:14 GMT
I don't blame the player, I blame his manager. Surely Martinez will be gone by the end of the season and no other club will employ him. He's a professional though, he should realise what he's doing is wrong? Unless he's thick as pig shit? He is a young lad. He is going to do as his manager tells him.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 10, 2016 12:03:55 GMT
He's a professional though, he should realise what he's doing is wrong? Unless he's thick as pig shit? He is a young lad. He is going to do as his manager tells him. To a point but surely if you're making these mistakes you realise? It's what pisses me off with the world today, people don't take responsibility for what they're doing. If he can't tell he's doing something wrong then there's no hope.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 10, 2016 12:35:44 GMT
This. Some people seem to think any defender who can play a bit isn't a centre back and needs to be fast-tracked into midfield and not get ideas above his station. That isn't the issue - a ball-playing centre back is a great thing to have at your disposal. But they have to be able to actually defend. Stone's decision-making is just awful and he clearly isn't getting the coaching he needs to address that at the moment. I think he'll go on to be an excellent central defender for club and country but he's a long way from that at the moment. I'm really not sure he will. The coaching quite clearly isn't there but how stupid must he be to not realise and take matters into his own hands? It's not like the mistakes he makes are little ones. He's been big daft errors since he got in the Everton side. And is there no one close to him to be honest? He has been let down by Martinez but I'm astounded he hadnt taken it upon himself to actively change and play a simpler passing game. He definitely shouldn't be going the Euros and I think he needs a loan to the Championship. He's getting hammered at the minute and rightly so but its not going to help. I agree that the responsibility is his but it seems to me it's gone to his head and people are encouraging him to persist with the Cruyff turn bullshit at TVs expense of the nuts and bolts stuff. But he's clearly talented and has got time to sort it out. If Chris Smalling can start to look like a half decent centre half then I reckon Stones can in time.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Apr 10, 2016 12:57:40 GMT
This. Some people seem to think any defender who can play a bit isn't a centre back and needs to be fast-tracked into midfield and not get ideas above his station. That isn't the issue - a ball-playing centre back is a great thing to have at your disposal. But they have to be able to actually defend. Stone's decision-making is just awful and he clearly isn't getting the coaching he needs to address that at the moment. I think he'll go on to be an excellent central defender for club and country but he's a long way from that at the moment. I'm really not sure he will. The coaching quite clearly isn't there but how stupid must he be to not realise and take matters into his own hands? It's not like the mistakes he makes are little ones. He's been big daft errors since he got in the Everton side. And is there no one close to him to be honest? He has been let down by Martinez but I'm astounded he hadnt taken it upon himself to actively change and play a simpler passing game. He definitely shouldn't be going the Euros and I think he needs a loan to the Championship. He's getting hammered at the minute and rightly so but its not going to help. Agree with this. If he is going to be a top class player then surely at some point he needs to take responsibility for the constant stream of errors he makes that inevitably seem to lead to a chance being created. It's not on the odd occasion, it seems to happen at least once a game. If people are telling him not to worry and keep persisting with what he's doing then at what point is he going to hold his hand up an say this isn't a good idea, maybe I should just clear it?
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Post by lordb on Apr 10, 2016 13:11:00 GMT
As an England fan I hope Stones does learn and ends up being the top player many in the media are saying he is however for me the only reason he is in the squad is the complete dearth of even standard centre backs.
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Post by nott1 on Apr 10, 2016 13:14:07 GMT
He's the future....heaven help us.......come on Ryan clean sheet agin the dippers.
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Post by felonious on Apr 10, 2016 14:06:43 GMT
Potentially brilliant player who looks woeful as he is playing under a manager that just doesn't know how to set a team up to be defensively strong, or doesn't know how to coach defenders. He'll be at the Arsenal before long then.
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Post by FullerMagic on May 24, 2016 14:29:27 GMT
I'm clearly living in a parallel universe! www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/24/jose-mourinho-faces-first-man-utd-battle-for-john-stones-and-nem/Jose Mourinho faces a battle to avoid an early blow in the transfer market as Manchester United’s new manager with Manchester City and Barcelona emerging as favourites to sign John Stones.
City and Barcelona have reaffirmed their interest in Stones over the past week, and both clubs plan to submit bids to Everton before the start of the European Championships – leaving Mourinho with a lot of ground to make up in the chase for the 21-year-old.
The fact City and Barca have stolen a march on United will not put off Mourinho, but the Portuguese will need to call on all his powers of persuasion to sway the race for Stones in his favour.
City manager Pep Guardiola wants to pair Stones with Aymeric Laporte in a new-look partnership, while Barca see him as the best defensive prospect in European football and believe he is ideally suited to La Liga.
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Post by JoeinOz on May 24, 2016 14:31:55 GMT
I'm clearly living in a parallel universe! www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/24/jose-mourinho-faces-first-man-utd-battle-for-john-stones-and-nem/Jose Mourinho faces a battle to avoid an early blow in the transfer market as Manchester United’s new manager with Manchester City and Barcelona emerging as favourites to sign John Stones.
City and Barcelona have reaffirmed their interest in Stones over the past week, and both clubs plan to submit bids to Everton before the start of the European Championships – leaving Mourinho with a lot of ground to make up in the chase for the 21-year-old.
The fact City and Barca have stolen a march on United will not put off Mourinho, but the Portuguese will need to call on all his powers of persuasion to sway the race for Stones in his favour.
City manager Pep Guardiola wants to pair Stones with Aymeric Laporte in a new-look partnership, while Barca see him as the best defensive prospect in European football and believe he is ideally suited to La Liga. Barcelona? Really?
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Post by superheroantonius on May 24, 2016 14:40:58 GMT
he is definately in the mangala oatmendi mode ... will fit right in at man city
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Post by PotterLog on May 24, 2016 14:48:39 GMT
I really don't understand modern football sometimes. Mind you after David Luiz commanded 50m anything is possible I guess...
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Post by chayzenbacon on May 24, 2016 15:03:01 GMT
Manchester City, so presumably with Guardiola's blessing, and Barca fucking lona?????
But he's fucking shit! And I'm not being ironic, he really is fucking shit!!
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Post by robwahlmann on May 24, 2016 15:09:52 GMT
I have no problem seeing his potential, but I must also say he is a defender that takes too big risks for my liking. To me he is far from the finished article and must learn when to be creative and when it's needed to clear the ball, the same goes for tackles inside the penalty area! This way too often leads to goals or penalties for the opposition. I must say that England really have to struggle when he already is among the chosen 3 for England's Euro squad!
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Post by stoneroses on May 24, 2016 15:10:31 GMT
I'm clearly living in a parallel universe! www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/24/jose-mourinho-faces-first-man-utd-battle-for-john-stones-and-nem/Jose Mourinho faces a battle to avoid an early blow in the transfer market as Manchester United’s new manager with Manchester City and Barcelona emerging as favourites to sign John Stones.
City and Barcelona have reaffirmed their interest in Stones over the past week, and both clubs plan to submit bids to Everton before the start of the European Championships – leaving Mourinho with a lot of ground to make up in the chase for the 21-year-old.
The fact City and Barca have stolen a march on United will not put off Mourinho, but the Portuguese will need to call on all his powers of persuasion to sway the race for Stones in his favour.
City manager Pep Guardiola wants to pair Stones with Aymeric Laporte in a new-look partnership, while Barca see him as the best defensive prospect in European football and believe he is ideally suited to La Liga. I think he is absolutely class and will be one of the best in the world. Martinez would ruin any defender. If as a fan of football all you want your defender to do is defend and clear his lines then he won't be your cup of tea. But if you enjoy a ball playing center half in the Moore, Beckenbaur, Ramos, Pique mold then he is a joy to watch. He is very un-English in many ways but if you put him in a good team he would look even better. In 2-3 years he will walk into any team in word football. In a defensive two having a ball player and a blocker is a sound base.
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Post by chayzenbacon on May 24, 2016 15:14:08 GMT
John Stones is not fit to polish Bobby Moore's gravestone. Not a patch on him in any respect whether that's hoofing it, tackling, playing it out, decision-making, nowt. Oh, I hear he takes a nifty chipped penalty. He's shit mate but like David Luiz if the media build him up enough he may forever be excused.
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Post by PotterLog on May 24, 2016 15:22:23 GMT
I'm clearly living in a parallel universe! www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/24/jose-mourinho-faces-first-man-utd-battle-for-john-stones-and-nem/Jose Mourinho faces a battle to avoid an early blow in the transfer market as Manchester United’s new manager with Manchester City and Barcelona emerging as favourites to sign John Stones.
City and Barcelona have reaffirmed their interest in Stones over the past week, and both clubs plan to submit bids to Everton before the start of the European Championships – leaving Mourinho with a lot of ground to make up in the chase for the 21-year-old.
The fact City and Barca have stolen a march on United will not put off Mourinho, but the Portuguese will need to call on all his powers of persuasion to sway the race for Stones in his favour.
City manager Pep Guardiola wants to pair Stones with Aymeric Laporte in a new-look partnership, while Barca see him as the best defensive prospect in European football and believe he is ideally suited to La Liga. I think he is absolutely class and will be one of the best in the world. Martinez would ruin any defender. If as a fan of football all you want your defender to do is defend and clear his lines then he won't be your cup of tea. But if you enjoy a ball playing center half in the Moore, Beckenbaur, Ramos, Pique mold then he is a joy to watch. He is very un-English in many ways but if you put him in a good team he would look even better. In 2-3 years he will walk into any team in word football. In a defensive two having a ball player and a blocker is a sound base. The fact that the biggest and richest clubs in the world are after him would seem to indicate that you are right. Fucked if I can get my head round it though. We live in an age where it doesn't seem to matter how error-prone, ponderous, lightweight or positionally unreliable you are, how irredeemably unorganised or how defensively horrific the team you play in is, if you can run along a bit with the ball at your feet you're literally among the highest-rated, first-class defensive prospects in the world. It's twilight zone stuff.
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Post by dadofsam on May 24, 2016 15:23:55 GMT
Would you swap him for Wolly?
Don't say "yes, then sell him for £40m to Pep"
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Post by mickmillslovechild on May 24, 2016 15:28:57 GMT
Would you swap him for Wolly? Don't say "yes, then sell him for £40m to Pep" yes then sell him for 40m to Jose
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Post by FullerMagic on May 24, 2016 15:31:12 GMT
I think he is absolutely class and will be one of the best in the world. Martinez would ruin any defender. If as a fan of football all you want your defender to do is defend and clear his lines then he won't be your cup of tea. But if you enjoy a ball playing center half in the Moore, Beckenbaur, Ramos, Pique mold then he is a joy to watch. He is very un-English in many ways but if you put him in a good team he would look even better. In 2-3 years he will walk into any team in word football. In a defensive two having a ball player and a blocker is a sound base. The fact that the biggest and richest clubs in the world are after him would seem to indicate that you are right. Fucked if I can get my head round it though. We live in an age where it doesn't seem to matter how error-prone, ponderous, lightweight or positionally unreliable you are, how irredeemably unorganised or how defensively horrific the team you play in is, if you can run along a bit with the ball at your feet you're literally among the highest-rated, first-class defensive prospects in the world. It's twilight zone stuff. Yep! You can see he's very talented with the ball at his feet, and he looks very graceful at times- but still unsure how that makes him a defender in any way. I could see him having a future at full-back (where he played originally, didn't he?) or midfield, where you can get away with being a bit flighty. But still think all the best centre-halves are steely bastards with a bit of devil in them, who've put the hard yards in to understand the position and can do the nuts and bolts and compete physically Even Rio Ferdinand, who Stones is optimistically compared to by his media posse, was a gritty so and so with an edge to him. Stones just looks so frail and weak. He's only 21/22, so suppose all these talent evaluators are banking on that being add-able, and they obviously know more than a pleb like me. Presumably it isn't mass hypnosis. It seems odd that so much stock is being put in his talent with the ball at his feet when all the other building blocks of a central defender are, at the moment, AWOL - even after 100+ games.
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Post by canadianmoose on May 24, 2016 15:37:47 GMT
Christ, if he could actually defend, I can see where all the praise comes from. He can't though which is surely the first duty of a central defender?
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Post by PotterLog on May 24, 2016 15:40:40 GMT
The fact that the biggest and richest clubs in the world are after him would seem to indicate that you are right. Fucked if I can get my head round it though. We live in an age where it doesn't seem to matter how error-prone, ponderous, lightweight or positionally unreliable you are, how irredeemably unorganised or how defensively horrific the team you play in is, if you can run along a bit with the ball at your feet you're literally among the highest-rated, first-class defensive prospects in the world. It's twilight zone stuff. Yep! You can see he's very talented with the ball at his feet, and he looks very graceful at times- but still unsure how that makes him a defender in any way. I could see him having a future at full-back (where he played originally, didn't he?) or midfield, where you can get away with being a bit flighty. But still think all the best centre-halves are steely bastards with a bit of devil in them, who've put the hard yards in to understand the position and can do the nuts and bolts and compete physically Even Rio Ferdinand, who Stones is optimistically compared to by his media posse, was a gritty so and so with an edge to him. Stones just looks so frail and weak. He's only 21/22, so suppose all these talent evaluators are banking on that being add-able, and they obviously know more than a pleb like me. Presumably it isn't mass hypnosis. It seems odd that so much stock is being put in his talent with the ball at his feet when all the other building blocks of a central defender are, at the moment, AWOL - even after 100+ games. Ferdinand was always good for the odd lapse in concentration but at his best he was positionally outstanding, and big and hard like you say. I guess with Stones you have to account for the Martinez factor - seems we'll soon see how much that's been at play during his recent "development"...
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Post by thestatusquo on May 24, 2016 15:44:20 GMT
Emperors new clothes !
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Post by stoneroses on May 24, 2016 19:04:50 GMT
The fact that the biggest and richest clubs in the world are after him would seem to indicate that you are right. Fucked if I can get my head round it though. We live in an age where it doesn't seem to matter how error-prone, ponderous, lightweight or positionally unreliable you are, how irredeemably unorganised or how defensively horrific the team you play in is, if you can run along a bit with the ball at your feet you're literally among the highest-rated, first-class defensive prospects in the world. It's twilight zone stuff. Yep! You can see he's very talented with the ball at his feet, and he looks very graceful at times- but still unsure how that makes him a defender in any way. I could see him having a future at full-back (where he played originally, didn't he?) or midfield, where you can get away with being a bit flighty. But still think all the best centre-halves are steely bastards with a bit of devil in them, who've put the hard yards in to understand the position and can do the nuts and bolts and compete physically Even Rio Ferdinand, who Stones is optimistically compared to by his media posse, was a gritty so and so with an edge to him. Stones just looks so frail and weak. He's only 21/22, so suppose all these talent evaluators are banking on that being add-able, and they obviously know more than a pleb like me. Presumably it isn't mass hypnosis. It seems odd that so much stock is being put in his talent with the ball at his feet when all the other building blocks of a central defender are, at the moment, AWOL - even after 100+ games. Some good points FM. Bobby Moore had a mentor Malcom Allison at West Ham who some of you may remember but he was before my time, he took Bobby under his wing, one game Bobby marked a big brute of a striker and thought he had a good game against him by keeping him at bay. He went back to Malcolm Allison expecting praise but he said if he ever played like that again he would never speak to him again as he spent all game marking him even when West Ham had the ball. He said he could get any one to do that, but he had the ability other didn't.... to get the ball off the keeper, turn defenders quickly, find people in space etc.. Bobby Moore wasn't that tall, had no pace, couldn't really head (This comes form Harry Redknapp who played with him) but is widely regarded as the best English center back ever, and even if he isn't he is the only Englishmen ever to pick up the world cup. Rio came off the pitch without a spot of dirt on him, he read the game so well, Maldini is another. I played center half myself to a high standard and i would pay money to go and watch certain defenders, good defending for me is as good to watch as good attacking play. I am not adverse to and also enjoy the other type of center half a Shawcroos / Taggart / Smalling / Vidic / Terry / Puyol / Adams the list goes on but good ball playing defenders are very rare and when it comes off they have the ability to change games even from how deep they sit. I rate Stones, i can see his faults as he is young but i would not try and take anything that is going to make him great away. In a good team you dont have to defend for 90 minutes straight, just short bursts of a game, i dont think he yet has the concentration for defending for long periods of time. I would genuinely right off this season in terms of a review as Martinez defending wise is the worst manager the premier league has ever seen.
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Post by sportsman on May 24, 2016 19:11:54 GMT
Barcelona are the obvious choice. He doesn't have to defend much and when he does Barcelona are known for being weak at the back, so perfect fit.
Basically he's wank and way over priced.
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Post by gonk on May 24, 2016 19:34:21 GMT
He is a young lad. He is going to do as his manager tells him. To a point but surely if you're making these mistakes you realise? It's what pisses me off with the world today, people don't take responsibility for what they're doing. If he can't tell he's doing something wrong then there's no hope. For one free kick last Sunday Cahill was telling him where to line up to the point on manhandling in to place where he wanted him ,he took no notice and just went back to where he was standing before.I think he's believes all the hype ,he is going to have one mighty wake up call in the Euros if he plays.
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Post by drfootball on May 24, 2016 19:36:02 GMT
This is THE illustration of modern defensive thinking,if you can look comfortable on the ball while bringing it out of defence you`re the way,the truth and the light!
Whether you can actually defend or not seems irrelevent,hence David Luiz et al being seen as 50m players.
As a defender Stones is woeful and Everton should cash in before he`s found out.
Proper defensive centre backs like Denis Smith,Mike Doyle,Alan Dodd and maybe Ryan and Huthy are out of fashion but I`d rather have a defender that can defend than a fancy Dan `libero` that`s a liability.
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Post by PotterLog on May 24, 2016 19:48:49 GMT
Yep! You can see he's very talented with the ball at his feet, and he looks very graceful at times- but still unsure how that makes him a defender in any way. I could see him having a future at full-back (where he played originally, didn't he?) or midfield, where you can get away with being a bit flighty. But still think all the best centre-halves are steely bastards with a bit of devil in them, who've put the hard yards in to understand the position and can do the nuts and bolts and compete physically Even Rio Ferdinand, who Stones is optimistically compared to by his media posse, was a gritty so and so with an edge to him. Stones just looks so frail and weak. He's only 21/22, so suppose all these talent evaluators are banking on that being add-able, and they obviously know more than a pleb like me. Presumably it isn't mass hypnosis. It seems odd that so much stock is being put in his talent with the ball at his feet when all the other building blocks of a central defender are, at the moment, AWOL - even after 100+ games. Some good points FM. Bobby Moore had a mentor Malcom Allison at West Ham who some of you may remember but he was before my time, he took Bobby under his wing, one game Bobby marked a big brute of a striker and thought he had a good game against him by keeping him at bay. He went back to Malcolm Allison expecting praise but he said if he ever played like that again he would never speak to him again as he spent all game marking him even when West Ham had the ball. He said he could get any one to do that, but he had the ability other didn't.... to get the ball off the keeper, turn defenders quickly, find people in space etc.. Bobby Moore wasn't that tall, had no pace, couldn't really head (This comes form Harry Redknapp who played with him) but is widely regarded as the best English center back ever, and even if he isn't he is the only Englishmen ever to pick up the world cup. Rio came off the pitch without a spot of dirt on him, he read the game so well, Maldini is another. I played center half myself to a high standard and i would pay money to go and watch certain defenders, good defending for me is as good to watch as good attacking play. I am not adverse to and also enjoy the other type of center half a Shawcroos / Taggart / Smalling / Vidic / Terry / Puyol / Adams the list goes on but good ball playing defenders are very rare and when it comes off they have the ability to change games even from how deep they sit. I rate Stones, i can see his faults as he is young but i would not try and take anything that is going to make him great away. In a good team you dont have to defend for 90 minutes straight, just short bursts of a game, i dont think he yet has the concentration for defending for long periods of time. I would genuinely right off this season in terms of a review as Martinez defending wise is the worst manager the premier league has ever seen. Do you think Stones has that natural ability to read the game though? He looks like he doesn't know where he's supposed to be standing most of the times I've seen him.
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