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Post by samba :) on Apr 28, 2016 7:48:02 GMT
The meeting at Anfield has now been held, attended by the FSF, 2 members of the Stoke City Supporters Club Committee who were there on the night, both clubs, the police and the Sports Ground Safety Authority. In addition to the personal testimonies of those present, the meeting had the benefit of about a dozen written witness statements; the extracted responses for that game from the FSF Away fans survey, and some comments which I extracted from this thread. I would like to thank those supporters who took the trouble to write individual statements or to complete the FSF Away fans survey, and particularly the two supporters who attended the meeting (and the third who was due to attend but got caught up in a severe motorway holdup). Amanda Jacks who attended for the FSF felt that all the major issues were aired and explored, and even though there was not total agreement from all parties on all of them, that the various agencies were committed to reviewing their processes and learning any lessons. I am not going to try to summarise all the issues here ( not least because I wasn't at the meeting), but if anyone would like a copy of brief notes of the meeting, email info@fsf.org.uk Hi malcom Was just wondering how often this occurs in the modern day in English football?
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Apr 28, 2016 8:58:05 GMT
The meeting at Anfield has now been held, attended by the FSF, 2 members of the Stoke City Supporters Club Committee who were there on the night, both clubs, the police and the Sports Ground Safety Authority. In addition to the personal testimonies of those present, the meeting had the benefit of about a dozen written witness statements; the extracted responses for that game from the FSF Away fans survey, and some comments which I extracted from this thread. I would like to thank those supporters who took the trouble to write individual statements or to complete the FSF Away fans survey, and particularly the two supporters who attended the meeting (and the third who was due to attend but got caught up in a severe motorway holdup). Amanda Jacks who attended for the FSF felt that all the major issues were aired and explored, and even though there was not total agreement from all parties on all of them, that the various agencies were committed to reviewing their processes and learning any lessons. I am not going to try to summarise all the issues here ( not least because I wasn't at the meeting), but if anyone would like a copy of brief notes of the meeting, email info@fsf.org.uk Hi malcom Was just wondering how often this occurs in the modern day in English football? Do you mean crowd crushes ? Not very often but obviously one occasion when there is any risk to fans is one too many and should be taken seriously. One of the worries about Anfield was that it has happened before in recent years. If you meant agencies being prepared to sit down and review problems with fans, I'm pleased to say as a generalisation that there is a greater willingness to do than used to be the case. The police in particular are more willing to talk and review both in advance of and after games - again a generalisation because forces vary in their approach.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Apr 28, 2016 9:20:34 GMT
I was asked on the Hillsborough thread to post the notes of the meeting which are below. They are at a fairly high level of generality and maybe don't fully reflect the robustness of the some of the discussions. Difficult for me to say because I wasn't there. The attendees were LFC, SCFC, the police, the FSF caseworker and 2 Stoke supporters who were caught up in the problems.
I think it's fair to say that one of the supporter reps. was maybe a little less happy than the others about some of the responses. But the important thing is that the meeting happened and the concerns and issues were fully raised. Hopefully appropriate lessons will be learnt.
LFC v SCFC Capital One Cup Semi Final 26th January 2016 Meeting with Liverpool Football Club & Merseyside Police
Q. Was the coaches’ departure time from Stoke realistic? A. It was broadly agreed that sufficient time (4.45pm for a 7.45pm kick off) was allowed for.
Q. Was it necessary to delay the whole convoy for the late arrival at the departure point of 1 or 2 coaches? A. SCFC wanted all fans to travel as one. This is procedure. Staff didn’t want to leave behind the 100 fans where still waiting for coaches and the Club stressed a duty of care for all fans.
Q. Did the convoy or anyone else relay the late eta to local controllers? A. LFC were in receipt of departure times and also were given expected times of arrival in Liverpool. Contributory factors to the problems were fans disembarking at separate locations and that the usual ‘meet and greet’ team of officers from Merseyside police were not available in the numbers they usually are. Such deployment of officers ordinarily manage, to a degree, the flow of fans to the turnstiles. That fans were arriving simultaneously and from different directions added to the congestion at the turnstiles.
Q. If not why not ? If so, what contingency plan for the inevitable late influx of supporters was put in place? A. LFC had just under 40 stewards working the away turnstiles, some were moved from other parts of the ground to assist.
Q. Were there sufficient open turnstiles? A. All away turnstiles were open and working to full capacity.
Q. Should there be greater bar code flexibility to speed up entry between different turnstiles? A. When issues became apparent, turnstiles were reprogrammed to accept tickets meant for alternative turnstiles.
Q. Why did the queueing system break down? Whose responsibility is it to manage queues? What is the role of police horses in this? A.The responsibility of managing entrance to the stadium is managed by the club with the police there to support if necessary.
The system broke down simply due to the large numbers of fans arriving simultaneously. The area was being closely monitored at all times; supporters’ torsos were visible on CCTV indicating that while conditions were not ideal fans were not being crushed and safety was not compromised. That some supporters were resistant to following instructions from stewards and others (as observed by fellow fans) were pushing and jostling did not help the situation.
Usual contingency plans, such as those used for away fans in European games, would not have assisted on this occasion.
As above, the police are there to support the club stewards if necessary. Following events at this match, Merseyside Police will be reviewing the effectiveness of mounted officers at Anfield.
Q. Were there sufficient stewards on duty? Did they have the skills and appropriate supervisory direction to concentrate on queue management rather than “crowd control” ( a number of supporters have commented that some stewards seemed more interested in responding to swearing by some supporters than trying to manage the developing situation which was causing the swearing) A. About 40 of LFCs most experienced stewards were working the away turnstiles as they usually do. These stewards all have NVQ Level 2 and also work at Goodison Park. More stewards were drafted over to assist. The club are constantly reviewing their stewarding operation and will certainly take ‘learnings’ from this fixture.
Q. Could the coaches have dropped off nearer ground rather than other side of Stanley Park even if they had to park there ? A. The view was that had coaches dropped supporters closer to Anfield it would not have helped in terms of crowd congestion/management.
Q. Was a request made to delay kick off? If not, why not? If so, why was it not approved? A.Yes, delaying kick off was discussed but decided against since the view was that there was no imminent danger or that safety was being compromised. That no supporter suffered injury while waiting to enter the ground supports this view. The meeting was very clear that if there were genuine fears of risk or harm to one or ten thousand fans, there would be no hesitation in delaying kick off.
Q. How aware was the control room of the developing situation outside the turnstiles? Was a risk assessment undertaken of the relative risks of continuing to search people as against abandoning it entirely in the interests of speeding up entry? If so what was the conclusion?
A. Very aware, the entire area was monitored by CCTV throughout. A decision was made to stop searching all fans and carry out random searches instead.
Q. What changes are planned to prevent this happening again given that something similar also happened on two previous recent occasions ? Were the recommendations of the SAG report into the incidents at the Everton game acted upon? A. Both the club and police take very seriously all feedback received from supporters and we are reassured that both recognise there are ‘learnings’ to be taken from the evening including looking at their current queuing plan to see what improvements may be made. The report produced after the Merseyside derby was acted upon and the club constantly review all aspects of their match day operation to ensure a safe experience for both home and away fans alike.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 9:40:35 GMT
I was asked on the Hillsborough thread to post the notes of the meeting which are below. They are at a fairly high level of generality and maybe don't fully reflect the robustness of the some of the discussions. Difficult for me to say because I wasn't there. The attendees were LFC, SCFC, the police, the FSF caseworker and 2 Stoke supporters who were caught up in the problems. I think it's fair to say that one of the supporter reps. was maybe a little less happy than the others about some of the responses. But the important thing is that the meeting happened and the concerns and issues were fully raised. Hopefully appropriate lessons will be learnt. LFC v SCFC Capital One Cup Semi Final 26th January 2016 Meeting with Liverpool Football Club & Merseyside Police Q. Was the coaches’ departure time from Stoke realistic? A. It was broadly agreed that sufficient time (4.45pm for a 7.45pm kick off) was allowed for. Q. Was it necessary to delay the whole convoy for the late arrival at the departure point of 1 or 2 coaches? A. SCFC wanted all fans to travel as one. This is procedure. Staff didn’t want to leave behind the 100 fans where still waiting for coaches and the Club stressed a duty of care for all fans. Q. Did the convoy or anyone else relay the late eta to local controllers? A. LFC were in receipt of departure times and also were given expected times of arrival in Liverpool. Contributory factors to the problems were fans disembarking at separate locations and that the usual ‘meet and greet’ team of officers from Merseyside police were not available in the numbers they usually are. Such deployment of officers ordinarily manage, to a degree, the flow of fans to the turnstiles. That fans were arriving simultaneously and from different directions added to the congestion at the turnstiles. Q. If not why not ? If so, what contingency plan for the inevitable late influx of supporters was put in place? A. LFC had just under 40 stewards working the away turnstiles, some were moved from other parts of the ground to assist. Q. Were there sufficient open turnstiles? A. All away turnstiles were open and working to full capacity. Q. Should there be greater bar code flexibility to speed up entry between different turnstiles? A. When issues became apparent, turnstiles were reprogrammed to accept tickets meant for alternative turnstiles. Q. Why did the queueing system break down? Whose responsibility is it to manage queues? What is the role of police horses in this? A.The responsibility of managing entrance to the stadium is managed by the club with the police there to support if necessary. The system broke down simply due to the large numbers of fans arriving simultaneously. The area was being closely monitored at all times; supporters’ torsos were visible on CCTV indicating that while conditions were not ideal fans were not being crushed and safety was not compromised. That some supporters were resistant to following instructions from stewards and others (as observed by fellow fans) were pushing and jostling did not help the situation. Usual contingency plans, such as those used for away fans in European games, would not have assisted on this occasion. As above, the police are there to support the club stewards if necessary. Following events at this match, Merseyside Police will be reviewing the effectiveness of mounted officers at Anfield. Q. Were there sufficient stewards on duty? Did they have the skills and appropriate supervisory direction to concentrate on queue management rather than “crowd control” ( a number of supporters have commented that some stewards seemed more interested in responding to swearing by some supporters than trying to manage the developing situation which was causing the swearing) A. About 40 of LFCs most experienced stewards were working the away turnstiles as they usually do. These stewards all have NVQ Level 2 and also work at Goodison Park. More stewards were drafted over to assist. The club are constantly reviewing their stewarding operation and will certainly take ‘learnings’ from this fixture. Q. Could the coaches have dropped off nearer ground rather than other side of Stanley Park even if they had to park there ? A. The view was that had coaches dropped supporters closer to Anfield it would not have helped in terms of crowd congestion/management. Q. Was a request made to delay kick off? If not, why not? If so, why was it not approved? A.Yes, delaying kick off was discussed but decided against since the view was that there was no imminent danger or that safety was being compromised. That no supporter suffered injury while waiting to enter the ground supports this view. The meeting was very clear that if there were genuine fears of risk or harm to one or ten thousand fans, there would be no hesitation in delaying kick off. Q. How aware was the control room of the developing situation outside the turnstiles? Was a risk assessment undertaken of the relative risks of continuing to search people as against abandoning it entirely in the interests of speeding up entry? If so what was the conclusion? A. Very aware, the entire area was monitored by CCTV throughout. A decision was made to stop searching all fans and carry out random searches instead. Q. What changes are planned to prevent this happening again given that something similar also happened on two previous recent occasions ? Were the recommendations of the SAG report into the incidents at the Everton game acted upon? A. Both the club and police take very seriously all feedback received from supporters and we are reassured that both recognise there are ‘learnings’ to be taken from the evening including looking at their current queuing plan to see what improvements may be made. The report produced after the Merseyside derby was acted upon and the club constantly review all aspects of their match day operation to ensure a safe experience for both home and away fans alike. Very interesting, thanks for time taken to share
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 28, 2016 9:51:43 GMT
So basically....
Calm down calm down calm down.
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Post by bingbang on Apr 28, 2016 10:22:15 GMT
Why try and make a joke of this , having been outside on the night it could have turned very nasty. Wind your neck in a bit Bayern
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Post by skip on Apr 28, 2016 11:36:28 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 28, 2016 12:13:08 GMT
Why try and make a joke of this , having been outside on the night it could have turned very nasty. Wind your neck in a bit Bayern Not making a joke of the situation. It was taking the piss out of that response Malcolm posted. Just read as "nothing to see here". Well worthy of making a joke out of, considering as that what it appears to be!
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Post by tomcmod on Apr 28, 2016 12:35:23 GMT
To be fair to Bayern there responses were a joke. I was there that night, getting in 25 minutes gone was a piss take! To say all turnstiles were open, was a lie!! They had 3 lots, 1 was open, eventually opened a second but the third never did!! Bull shit all open!! Also the only reason to delay kick off is safety? So when there is traffic delays why do they delay kick off? A lot of the fans were saying "they must delay kick off" so if they all knew I think there might have been a safety issue.
All the scousers have done is literally said, "we did what we could, so that's that". They of all people should know where acting like that gets people!!
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Post by mjb1989 on Apr 28, 2016 12:41:25 GMT
Q. Was a request made to delay kick off? If not, why not? If so, why was it not approved? A.Yes, delaying kick off was discussed but decided against since the view was that there was no imminent danger or that safety was being compromised. That no supporter suffered injury while waiting to enter the ground supports this view. The meeting was very clear that if there were genuine fears of risk or harm to one or ten thousand fans, there would be no hesitation in delaying kick off.
Surely the no one getting hurt was more luck than judgement.
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Post by samba :) on Apr 28, 2016 16:07:06 GMT
stoke fans behaved extremely well on such a shitly organised event If the stoke fans had of pushed people would have ended up crushed into the wall and there would have been deaths If Liverpool get into a cup semi next year and it's several thousand people from other clubs the police may not be so lucky to get away with it
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Post by lexie on Apr 28, 2016 16:15:01 GMT
I tried to gain entry though a different turnstile and was told it was not possible this was around 5 mins before KO, so me and my 14 year old daughter got in the crowd with everyone else trying to get in through M turnstile" so I wonder what time they did reprogram the turnstiles
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 17:33:55 GMT
Q. Was a request made to delay kick off? If not, why not? If so, why was it not approved? A.Yes, delaying kick off was discussed but decided against since the view was that there was no imminent danger or that safety was being compromised. That no supporter suffered injury while waiting to enter the ground supports this view. The meeting was very clear that if there were genuine fears of risk or harm to one or ten thousand fans, there would be no hesitation in delaying kick off. Surely the no one getting hurt was more luck than judgement. Prevention is better than cure. Sheer lunacy to suggest that until someone is hurt nothing needs to be done. Bordering on criminal. Well done to all the Stoke fans who brought this to light and Malcolm and the FSF for acting upon it. We can only hope something is "learned" from it.
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Post by Silkystoke on Apr 28, 2016 17:36:51 GMT
Sourds right, they moan like fuck when its them, when it's others turn a blind eye..!!!
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Post by BraveSirRobin on Apr 28, 2016 20:21:11 GMT
Sourds right, they moan like fuck when its them, when it's others turn a blind eye..!!! I think in a certain case they had every right to moan like fuck.
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Post by chesterfieldstokie on Apr 28, 2016 20:24:35 GMT
Sourds right, they moan like fuck when its them, when it's others turn a blind eye..!!! I think in a certain case they had every right to moan like fuck. Agreed, but what about all the other times? Wonder what would have happened if this had been at Stoke with Liverpool fans?
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 28, 2016 20:28:07 GMT
I think in a certain case they had every right to moan like fuck. Agreed, but what about all the other times? Wonder what would have happened if this had been at Stoke with Liverpool fans? They would have every right to moan like fuck.
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Post by chesterfieldstokie on Apr 28, 2016 20:29:55 GMT
Agreed, but what about all the other times? Wonder what would have happened if this had been at Stoke with Liverpool fans? They would have every right to moan like fuck. And would Stoke have bullshitted like Liverpool did in the meeting to discuss it?
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 28, 2016 20:31:29 GMT
They would have every right to moan like fuck. And would Stoke have bullshitted like Liverpool did in the meeting to discuss it? I dunno. Traditionally all clubs bullshit and fudge these things pay lip service.
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Post by chesterfieldstokie on Apr 28, 2016 20:34:04 GMT
And would Stoke have bullshitted like Liverpool did in the meeting to discuss it? I dunno. Traditionally all clubs bullshit and fudge these things pay lip service. Downright lies if you listen to what people on here are saying who were there. But of course Liverpool are never at fault. Remember when I was a kid and used to go on coach and the Liverpool fans used to brick them on the way out from Stanley Park.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 28, 2016 20:38:32 GMT
I dunno. Traditionally all clubs bullshit and fudge these things pay lip service. Downright lies if you listen to what people on here are saying who were there. But of course Liverpool are never at fault. Remember when I was a kid and used to go on coach and the Liverpool fans used to brick them on the way out from Stanley Park. That isn't related to this though. You can't blame them thugs for the disorganization at a cup tie. Same as you can't blame Lfc for the thugs.
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Post by chesterfieldstokie on Apr 28, 2016 20:41:43 GMT
Downright lies if you listen to what people on here are saying who were there. But of course Liverpool are never at fault. Remember when I was a kid and used to go on coach and the Liverpool fans used to brick them on the way out from Stanley Park. That isn't related to this though. You can't blame them thugs for the disorganization at a cup tie. Same as you can't blame Lfc for the thugs. Its all bundled up in to one, a club who only care about themselves with fans that are the same, they never learn and never care. You can guarantee that if it had happened at Stoke the club would have made a big fuss and the papers would have covered it more.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Apr 28, 2016 20:48:27 GMT
Sourds right, they moan like fuck when its them, when it's others turn a blind eye..!!! let's be fair, it's a completely different "them". It wasn't fans who were managing our cup tie. We got support from the "Spirit of Shankly", the main fans group, on our complaints I suspect we achieved more than appears to be the case from these notes but the proof of the pudding is, of course, in the eating
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Post by chesterfieldstokie on Apr 28, 2016 20:51:23 GMT
Sourds right, they moan like fuck when its them, when it's others turn a blind eye..!!! let's be fair, it's a completely different "them". It wasn't fans who were managing our cup tie. We got support from the "Spirit of Shankly", the main fans group, on our complaints I suspect we achieved more than appears to be the case from these notes but the proof of the pudding is, of course, in the eating It wont change, they didnt even admit any fault according to your minutes. Even lied about the number of turnstiles that were open.
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Post by samba :) on Apr 28, 2016 21:32:42 GMT
I was asked on the Hillsborough thread to post the notes of the meeting which are below. They are at a fairly high level of generality and maybe don't fully reflect the robustness of the some of the discussions. Difficult for me to say because I wasn't there. The attendees were LFC, SCFC, the police, the FSF caseworker and 2 Stoke supporters who were caught up in the problems. I think it's fair to say that one of the supporter reps. was maybe a little less happy than the others about some of the responses. But the important thing is that the meeting happened and the concerns and issues were fully raised. Hopefully appropriate lessons will be learnt. LFC v SCFC Capital One Cup Semi Final 26th January 2016 Meeting with Liverpool Football Club & Merseyside Police Q. Was the coaches’ departure time from Stoke realistic? A. It was broadly agreed that sufficient time (4.45pm for a 7.45pm kick off) was allowed for. Q. Was it necessary to delay the whole convoy for the late arrival at the departure point of 1 or 2 coaches? A. SCFC wanted all fans to travel as one. This is procedure. Staff didn’t want to leave behind the 100 fans where still waiting for coaches and the Club stressed a duty of care for all fans. Q. Did the convoy or anyone else relay the late eta to local controllers? A. LFC were in receipt of departure times and also were given expected times of arrival in Liverpool. Contributory factors to the problems were fans disembarking at separate locations and that the usual ‘meet and greet’ team of officers from Merseyside police were not available in the numbers they usually are. Such deployment of officers ordinarily manage, to a degree, the flow of fans to the turnstiles. That fans were arriving simultaneously and from different directions added to the congestion at the turnstiles. Q. If not why not ? If so, what contingency plan for the inevitable late influx of supporters was put in place? A. LFC had just under 40 stewards working the away turnstiles, some were moved from other parts of the ground to assist. Q. Were there sufficient open turnstiles? A. All away turnstiles were open and working to full capacity. Q. Should there be greater bar code flexibility to speed up entry between different turnstiles? A. When issues became apparent, turnstiles were reprogrammed to accept tickets meant for alternative turnstiles. Q. Why did the queueing system break down? Whose responsibility is it to manage queues? What is the role of police horses in this? A.The responsibility of managing entrance to the stadium is managed by the club with the police there to support if necessary. The system broke down simply due to the large numbers of fans arriving simultaneously. The area was being closely monitored at all times; supporters’ torsos were visible on CCTV indicating that while conditions were not ideal fans were not being crushed and safety was not compromised. That some supporters were resistant to following instructions from stewards and others (as observed by fellow fans) were pushing and jostling did not help the situation. Usual contingency plans, such as those used for away fans in European games, would not have assisted on this occasion. As above, the police are there to support the club stewards if necessary. Following events at this match, Merseyside Police will be reviewing the effectiveness of mounted officers at Anfield. Q. Were there sufficient stewards on duty? Did they have the skills and appropriate supervisory direction to concentrate on queue management rather than “crowd control” ( a number of supporters have commented that some stewards seemed more interested in responding to swearing by some supporters than trying to manage the developing situation which was causing the swearing) A. About 40 of LFCs most experienced stewards were working the away turnstiles as they usually do. These stewards all have NVQ Level 2 and also work at Goodison Park. More stewards were drafted over to assist. The club are constantly reviewing their stewarding operation and will certainly take ‘learnings’ from this fixture. Q. Could the coaches have dropped off nearer ground rather than other side of Stanley Park even if they had to park there ? A. The view was that had coaches dropped supporters closer to Anfield it would not have helped in terms of crowd congestion/management. Q. Was a request made to delay kick off? If not, why not? If so, why was it not approved? A.Yes, delaying kick off was discussed but decided against since the view was that there was no imminent danger or that safety was being compromised. That no supporter suffered injury while waiting to enter the ground supports this view. The meeting was very clear that if there were genuine fears of risk or harm to one or ten thousand fans, there would be no hesitation in delaying kick off. Q. How aware was the control room of the developing situation outside the turnstiles? Was a risk assessment undertaken of the relative risks of continuing to search people as against abandoning it entirely in the interests of speeding up entry? If so what was the conclusion? A. Very aware, the entire area was monitored by CCTV throughout. A decision was made to stop searching all fans and carry out random searches instead. Q. What changes are planned to prevent this happening again given that something similar also happened on two previous recent occasions ? Were the recommendations of the SAG report into the incidents at the Everton game acted upon? A. Both the club and police take very seriously all feedback received from supporters and we are reassured that both recognise there are ‘learnings’ to be taken from the evening including looking at their current queuing plan to see what improvements may be made. The report produced after the Merseyside derby was acted upon and the club constantly review all aspects of their match day operation to ensure a safe experience for both home and away fans alike. Sorry for reposting the hole thing and thank you for the info But when it said "we could see torsos so there was no danger" could they fuck.. I could hardly breath through some of that and I'm a tall person so god knows how the shorter ones felt
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Post by chesterfieldstokie on Apr 29, 2016 18:35:37 GMT
Sourds right, they moan like fuck when its them, when it's others turn a blind eye..!!! let's be fair, it's a completely different "them". It wasn't fans who were managing our cup tie. We got support from the "Spirit of Shankly", the main fans group, on our complaints I suspect we achieved more than appears to be the case from these notes but the proof of the pudding is, of course, in the eating I hope you achieved more because the notes prove that you achieved nothing.
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Post by whatsashig on Apr 29, 2016 18:48:21 GMT
What happened at the lac tie in Jan was folk turning up late through no fault of their own and obviously caused frustration, that's it. The way people (we) have vented it could have been better , but that's the measure of the things. That happen
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Post by whatsashig on Apr 29, 2016 18:48:52 GMT
Lac should of been lfc
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Post by Eggybread on Apr 29, 2016 19:20:42 GMT
So basically shut our mouths and get on with it.
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Post by chesterfieldstokie on Apr 29, 2016 19:23:55 GMT
What happened at the lac tie in Jan was folk turning up late through no fault of their own and obviously caused frustration, that's it. The way people (we) have vented it could have been better , but that's the measure of the things. That happen Regardless of this it was a sold out tie so ALL turnstiles should have been open.
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