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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 19, 2016 21:03:12 GMT
I remember my own disbelief when I heard the team, and I think it is fair to criticise TP for misleading the fans on what he might do. However, on the decision itself, I don't think it's anything like as 'black and white' as many are now making out with the wonderful benefit of hindsight, and a little selective memory. There was a great deal of real concern among fans about our league position, partly because of our poor form and also knowledge of the effect the Europa had also had on other clubs league position. We had 2 important league games coming up, both of which we won. Of course we will never know what would have happened had we sent the 'first team' to Valencia. But had we lost, and then lost one or both of those games, I have a feeling TP would have come in for some very heavy stick on this board for not getting his priorities right. I think the fact that we had lost the home leg was also a significant factor. Had we won it, TP might have taken different decisions - again, we'll never know. In the event, the so-called 2nd team didn't do at all badly, only lost 1-0 and if Kenwyn in particular had managed to put away one or two of his chances, we might have got a result. Would the first team have done any better ? On paper they certainly should have done, but they hadn't exactly been pulling up trees in the period before and again, there is no way of ever knowing what would have happened. I think one can accuse Pulis of many things - and there is obviously a legitimate debate about priorities around that game - but 'bottling it' isn't one of them in my view. Almost the reverse - he didn't bottle doing what he thought was right despite knowing, as he must have done, the reaction it would get from the travelling fans ( and obviously still gets judging by this thread) You won't be surprised to learn that I disagree with almost every aspect of what you say here but one thing prompted my reply, and that is your comment about the "heavy stick he would have got on here...". I was one of his biggest critics and detractors. I couldn't abide his negativity, the fear of his own shadow, the dumbing down of the supporter base and its expectations and the awful, god awful, football he produced with a side capable of so much better. All that said, I was at my most tolerant during the europa league season. I really didn't give a stuff about the premier league and would happily have accepted the shite he called football in exchange for our very best efforts in the Europa league, win, lose or draw. When we got thumped at Sunderland and Bolton after Europa league trips, I was one of his fiercest supporters. I'd have backed him to the hilt. We had a chance to win our group and get an easier tie than we got by beating besiktas and i was one of few that wanted us to go there with as strong a team as possible. Win the group, see how far we could go. Like you, I invested significant sums of money travelling to every fixture then racing home to make it back for the next league game be that away at Swansea, Bolton or Sunderland. You simply cant defend the indefensible and there was no excuse for what he did that night in Valencia. None whatsoever. No defence is plausible, no excuse acceptable. I can tell you almost every detail of our Europa league experience. I can tell you next to nothing about the league season. I don't recall the score or goalscorers in either of the games that followed Valencia other than we won both games and arguments reigned on here as people rushed to justify what he'd done the week before. For me, football is about hope, desire, will to win and glory. On the basis that trophy laden glory is hard to come by for a club such as ours its about "glorious moments". There is a huge difference in playing to win rather than hoping to win or playing not to lose. I don't want to hear how clubs such as ours can't afford to play two wingers away at birmingham or Fulham and hope to get a result or to hear that only 200m will allow us to go to man city away and at least attempt to get a result. I don't want to watch my team sit back for 70 minutes with our best player on the bench then bring him on to nick us a win or salvage a draw. I hated that approach but during that europa league campaign, I cut pulis every bit of slack he could ever have wanted. I even had an hour long conversation with Bristol Mick in a bar in tel aviv saying that pulis, despite all his faults, wasn't that bad. :-) In Valencia pulis betrayed us, betrayed the chairman and betrayed everything our magnificent club stands for. Given the same opportunity, our current manager won't do the same.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 19, 2016 21:17:11 GMT
Some results around the time of the Cup Final.
Twatting Newcastle four zip, a draw against Chelsea, a thrilling defeat at White Hart Lane, a thumping of Wolves and an annihilation of Arsenal. Throw in the small matter of the biggest ever semi-final victory at the new Wembley and what have you got?
Accusations that we bottled a Cup Final and the home defeat against Wigan on the last day of that season getting many more mentions by some on here than any of the above.
I think it's pretty clear what we're witnessing here. I mean it's not a new phenomenon is it?
It is however, predictably fucking shitty though.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jan 19, 2016 21:32:50 GMT
Some results around the time of the Cup Final. Twatting Newcastle four zip, a draw against Chelsea, a thrilling defeat at White Hart Lane, a thumping of Wolves and an annihilation of Arsenal. Throw in the small matter of the biggest ever semi-final victory at the new Wembley and what have you got? Accusations that we bottled a Cup Final and the home defeat against Wigan on the last day of that season getting many more mentions by some on here than any of the above. I think it's pretty clear what we're witnessing here. I mean it's not a new phenomenon is it? It is however, predictably fucking shitty though. Given those results and indeed the accompanying performances you reference, I guess you are supporting the view that the final was bottled? We are witnessing a reasonably sensible discussion (Mr Gloves contributions apart) on how some of the major events of recent times involving Stoke City have been throttled to death and why. Its a perfectly fair discussion to have on a Stoke City message board I would suggest. Handle it or keep off it but you wont stifle it.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 19, 2016 21:39:10 GMT
Some results around the time of the Cup Final. Twatting Newcastle four zip, a draw against Chelsea, a thrilling defeat at White Hart Lane, a thumping of Wolves and an annihilation of Arsenal. Throw in the small matter of the biggest ever semi-final victory at the new Wembley and what have you got? Accusations that we bottled a Cup Final and the home defeat against Wigan on the last day of that season getting many more mentions by some on here than any of the above. I think it's pretty clear what we're witnessing here. I mean it's not a new phenomenon is it? It is however, predictably fucking shitty though. Given those results and indeed the accompanying performances you reference, I guess you are supporting the view that the final was bottled? We are witnessing a reasonably sensible discussion (Mr Gloves contributions apart) on how some of the major events of recent times involving Stoke City have been throttled to death and why. Its a perfectly fair discussion to have on a Stoke City message board I would suggest. Handle it or keep off it but you wont stifle it. I'm suggesting we were patched up after a very, very decent run in, which had some great performances, where no quarter was given against those in relegation and title contention. I think Man City played on our problems and tried to kick a couple of our players out of it and with 15 minutes to go, Tommy heroics notwithstanding, we should have taken the lead in our only FA Cup final to date. I know how people should fucking view it but aren't in the slightest bit surprised about how some people choose to.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jan 19, 2016 21:49:48 GMT
Some results around the time of the Cup Final. Twatting Newcastle four zip, a draw against Chelsea, a thrilling defeat at White Hart Lane, a thumping of Wolves and an annihilation of Arsenal. Throw in the small matter of the biggest ever semi-final victory at the new Wembley and what have you got? Accusations that we bottled a Cup Final and the home defeat against Wigan on the last day of that season getting many more mentions by some on here than any of the above. I think it's pretty clear what we're witnessing here. I mean it's not a new phenomenon is it? It is however, predictably fucking shitty though. Given those results and indeed the accompanying performances you reference, I guess you are supporting the view that the final was bottled? We are witnessing a reasonably sensible discussion (Mr Gloves contributions apart) on how some of the major events of recent times involving Stoke City have been throttled to death and why. Its a perfectly fair discussion to have on a Stoke City message board I would suggest. Handle it or keep off it but you wont stifle it. I assume you mean contribution? And just to clarify.....why was my post deleted? And what's acceptable and unacceptable on here? I mean apart from calling Pulis a c*nt, twat, gobshite etc. Although that appears practically compulsory these days.
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Post by Titan Uranus on Jan 19, 2016 22:01:00 GMT
Given those results and indeed the accompanying performances you reference, I guess you are supporting the view that the final was bottled? We are witnessing a reasonably sensible discussion (Mr Gloves contributions apart) on how some of the major events of recent times involving Stoke City have been throttled to death and why. Its a perfectly fair discussion to have on a Stoke City message board I would suggest. Handle it or keep off it but you wont stifle it. I assume you mean contribution? And just to clarify.....why was my post deleted? And what's acceptable and unacceptable on here? I mean apart from calling Pulis a c*nt, twat, gobshite etc. Although that appears practically compulsory these days. This messageboard administration has always had an agenda against Pulis (and obviously still has) ... I was one of the biggest critics of TP, but cannot believe the bile and pure hatred that is being spewed forth on this messageboard to one of our greatest managers. Unbelievable.
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Post by Davef on Jan 19, 2016 22:13:57 GMT
I assume you mean contribution? And just to clarify.....why was my post deleted? And what's acceptable and unacceptable on here? I mean apart from calling Pulis a c*nt, twat, gobshite etc. Although that appears practically compulsory these days. This messageboard administration has always had an agenda against Pulis (and obviously still has) ... I was one of the biggest critics of TP, but cannot believe the bile and pure hatred that is being spewed forth on this messageboard to one of our greatest managers. Unbelievable. Go away.
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Post by Titan Uranus on Jan 19, 2016 22:27:24 GMT
This messageboard administration has always had an agenda against Pulis (and obviously still has) ... I was one of the biggest critics of TP, but cannot believe the bile and pure hatred that is being spewed forth on this messageboard to one of our greatest managers. Unbelievable. Go away. Touched a nerve have I ? There are times that you simply have to admit that TP did a tremendous job under very difficult circumstances. For the sake of your future credibility I suggest that you and your fellow moderators acknowledge the "job" that Tony did and simply consign him to our SCFC Legends list with no further comment.
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Post by Davef on Jan 19, 2016 22:40:19 GMT
Touched a nerve have I ? There are times that you simply have to admit that TP did a tremendous job under very difficult circumstances. For the sake of your future credibility I suggest that you and your fellow moderators acknowledge the "job" that Tony did and simply consign him to our SCFC Legends list with no further comment. Over the years this message board has been running, I'd say the largest percentage of abusive posts I've removed have been directed at Tony Pulis, especially when he was our manager. I dare say some of the shit you yourself subjected him to is included in that. I really don't need lessons in who and who isn't a Stoke City club legend from raving hypocrites like you.
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Post by Titan Uranus on Jan 19, 2016 23:04:34 GMT
Touched a nerve have I ? There are times that you simply have to admit that TP did a tremendous job under very difficult circumstances. For the sake of your future credibility I suggest that you and your fellow moderators acknowledge the "job" that Tony did and simply consign him to our SCFC Legends list with no further comment. Over the years this message board has been running, I'd say the largest percentage of abusive posts I've removed have been directed at Tony Pulis, especially when he was our manager. I dare say some of the shit you yourself subjected him to is included in that. I really don't have to take lessons in who and who isn't a Stoke City club legend from raving hypocrites like you. Not a hypocrite. Just cannot stand the crap that one of our greatest managers is getting on this board. There are plenty of easy targets... can we have a little respect for him and his achievments.
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Post by Titan Uranus on Jan 19, 2016 23:11:26 GMT
Touched a nerve have I ? There are times that you simply have to admit that TP did a tremendous job under very difficult circumstances. For the sake of your future credibility I suggest that you and your fellow moderators acknowledge the "job" that Tony did and simply consign him to our SCFC Legends list with no further comment. Over the years this message board has been running, I'd say the largest percentage of abusive posts I've removed have been directed at Tony Pulis, especially when he was our manager. I dare say some of the shit you yourself subjected him to is included in that. I really don't need lessons in who and who isn't a Stoke City club legend from raving hypocrites like you. And for the record you have never removed one of my posts.
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Post by Titan Uranus on Jan 19, 2016 23:19:20 GMT
Touched a nerve have I ? There are times that you simply have to admit that TP did a tremendous job under very difficult circumstances. For the sake of your future credibility I suggest that you and your fellow moderators acknowledge the "job" that Tony did and simply consign him to our SCFC Legends list with no further comment. Over the years this message board has been running, I'd say the largest percentage of abusive posts I've removed have been directed at Tony Pulis, especially when he was our manager. I dare say some of the shit you yourself subjected him to is included in that. I really don't need lessons in who and who isn't a Stoke City club legend from raving hypocrites like you. Bye the way ... do you think Tony Pulis is a SCFC legend??
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 19, 2016 23:26:40 GMT
I tend to agree with this. I think the main reason we lost in the Cup Final ( apart from the obvious fact that, overall, Man City were at a different level to us at that time) was that we suffered particularly from injuries to Huth and Etherington, and that our squad at that time wasn't deep enough to compensate. We have a much stronger squad now with much less reliance on key individuals. He took a risk with Etherington which didn't work out, and which LH wouldn't have to take today in a similar situation. I think to blame TP for not winning the Final is unreasonable. I think that trying to portray my post as blaming Pulis for not winning the FA Cup is ingenuous. Im clearly remarking on the lack of attempt to win the game not failing to win the game. If Manchester City were so on a different planet how do you explain away Wigan twelve moths later against an even stronger Manchester City side? Did you watch that game? I'll explain it for you Malcolm. Wigan got the rewards of taking a positive approach to the game. Sometimes it works, sometimes not but in an FA Cup final you have got to be one hell of a strange football supporter if you prefer it served up as a damage limitation exercise laced with a smidgeon of hope that something drops for you somewhere somehow. One shot at goal was it we had? The remarks about the depth of our squad are a shockingly poor excuse. We had been in the PL for three years and were over that period right at the top of the spending league and yet you are prepared to excuse a complete lack of ambition on the basis we had a semi-fit winger and central defender? Really? One winger being unfit completely unhinged any wish to take the one off knock out cup final to the opposition? You cannot be serious! If you are what does that say about Pulis' squad building? I guess the mighty Wigan squad that got relegated the same season they had a right go at Man City had a much stronger squad did they? I saw your earlier post (which is so rubbish by your standards and so full of holes that I can't be bothered to reply to it ) trying to rationalise the Valencia disgrace and then your whine about being drawn into debating Pulis. You hardly ever refrain to be fair. Tongue in cheek but I cannot resist asking if Tony has blown smoke up your ass and its got in your eyes? It is the only explanation I can offer for a man holding your position in supporter circles sticking up for a complete piss take out of supporters! I think if posters read what I actually wrote, they might conclude that is a rather strange response, both in tone and content, but I'm more than happy for people to make up their own minds on that without repeating myself.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 19, 2016 23:32:46 GMT
I remember my own disbelief when I heard the team, and I think it is fair to criticise TP for misleading the fans on what he might do. However, on the decision itself, I don't think it's anything like as 'black and white' as many are now making out with the wonderful benefit of hindsight, and a little selective memory. There was a great deal of real concern among fans about our league position, partly because of our poor form and also knowledge of the effect the Europa had also had on other clubs league position. We had 2 important league games coming up, both of which we won. Of course we will never know what would have happened had we sent the 'first team' to Valencia. But had we lost, and then lost one or both of those games, I have a feeling TP would have come in for some very heavy stick on this board for not getting his priorities right. I think the fact that we had lost the home leg was also a significant factor. Had we won it, TP might have taken different decisions - again, we'll never know. In the event, the so-called 2nd team didn't do at all badly, only lost 1-0 and if Kenwyn in particular had managed to put away one or two of his chances, we might have got a result. Would the first team have done any better ? On paper they certainly should have done, but they hadn't exactly been pulling up trees in the period before and again, there is no way of ever knowing what would have happened. I think one can accuse Pulis of many things - and there is obviously a legitimate debate about priorities around that game - but 'bottling it' isn't one of them in my view. Almost the reverse - he didn't bottle doing what he thought was right despite knowing, as he must have done, the reaction it would get from the travelling fans ( and obviously still gets judging by this thread) You won't be surprised to learn that I disagree with almost every aspect of what you say here but one thing prompted my reply, and that is your comment about the "heavy stick he would have got on here...". I was one of his biggest critics and detractors. I couldn't abide his negativity, the fear of his own shadow, the dumbing down of the supporter base and its expectations and the awful, god awful, football he produced with a side capable of so much better. All that said, I was at my most tolerant during the europa league season. I really didn't give a stuff about the premier league and would happily have accepted the shite he called football in exchange for our very best efforts in the Europa league, win, lose or draw. When we got thumped at Sunderland and Bolton after Europa league trips, I was one of his fiercest supporters. I'd have backed him to the hilt. We had a chance to win our group and get an easier tie than we got by beating besiktas and i was one of few that wanted us to go there with as strong a team as possible. Win the group, see how far we could go. Like you, I invested significant sums of money travelling to every fixture then racing home to make it back for the next league game be that away at Swansea, Bolton or Sunderland. You simply cant defend the indefensible and there was no excuse for what he did that night in Valencia. None whatsoever. No defence is plausible, no excuse acceptable. I can tell you almost every detail of our Europa league experience. I can tell you next to nothing about the league season. I don't recall the score or goalscorers in either of the games that followed Valencia other than we won both games and arguments reigned on here as people rushed to justify what he'd done the week before. For me, football is about hope, desire, will to win and glory. On the basis that trophy laden glory is hard to come by for a club such as ours its about "glorious moments". There is a huge difference in playing to win rather than hoping to win or playing not to lose. I don't want to hear how clubs such as ours can't afford to play two wingers away at birmingham or Fulham and hope to get a result or to hear that only 200m will allow us to go to man city away and at least attempt to get a result. I don't want to watch my team sit back for 70 minutes with our best player on the bench then bring him on to nick us a win or salvage a draw. I hated that approach but during that europa league campaign, I cut pulis every bit of slack he could ever have wanted. I even had an hour long conversation with Bristol Mick in a bar in tel aviv saying that pulis, despite all his faults, wasn't that bad. :-) In Valencia pulis betrayed us, betrayed the chairman and betrayed everything our magnificent club stands for. Given the same opportunity, our current manager won't do the same. I agree with some of that, Dave, and I don't think most of it is directly related to what I actually said, but, as with Mark's post, I'm very happy to let readers make up their own minds on that without repeating myself.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jan 19, 2016 23:57:24 GMT
You won't be surprised to learn that I disagree with almost every aspect of what you say here but one thing prompted my reply, and that is your comment about the "heavy stick he would have got on here...". I was one of his biggest critics and detractors. I couldn't abide his negativity, the fear of his own shadow, the dumbing down of the supporter base and its expectations and the awful, god awful, football he produced with a side capable of so much better. All that said, I was at my most tolerant during the europa league season. I really didn't give a stuff about the premier league and would happily have accepted the shite he called football in exchange for our very best efforts in the Europa league, win, lose or draw. When we got thumped at Sunderland and Bolton after Europa league trips, I was one of his fiercest supporters. I'd have backed him to the hilt. We had a chance to win our group and get an easier tie than we got by beating besiktas and i was one of few that wanted us to go there with as strong a team as possible. Win the group, see how far we could go. Like you, I invested significant sums of money travelling to every fixture then racing home to make it back for the next league game be that away at Swansea, Bolton or Sunderland. You simply cant defend the indefensible and there was no excuse for what he did that night in Valencia. None whatsoever. No defence is plausible, no excuse acceptable. I can tell you almost every detail of our Europa league experience. I can tell you next to nothing about the league season. I don't recall the score or goalscorers in either of the games that followed Valencia other than we won both games and arguments reigned on here as people rushed to justify what he'd done the week before. For me, football is about hope, desire, will to win and glory. On the basis that trophy laden glory is hard to come by for a club such as ours its about "glorious moments". There is a huge difference in playing to win rather than hoping to win or playing not to lose. I don't want to hear how clubs such as ours can't afford to play two wingers away at birmingham or Fulham and hope to get a result or to hear that only 200m will allow us to go to man city away and at least attempt to get a result. I don't want to watch my team sit back for 70 minutes with our best player on the bench then bring him on to nick us a win or salvage a draw. I hated that approach but during that europa league campaign, I cut pulis every bit of slack he could ever have wanted. I even had an hour long conversation with Bristol Mick in a bar in tel aviv saying that pulis, despite all his faults, wasn't that bad. :-) In Valencia pulis betrayed us, betrayed the chairman and betrayed everything our magnificent club stands for. Given the same opportunity, our current manager won't do the same. I agree with some of that, Dave, and I don't think most of it is directly related to what I actually said, but, as with Mark's post, I'm very happy to let readers make up their own minds on that without repeating myself. Both of us have carefully read your posts and have equally carefully discussed the reasons/excuses (delete as applicable) you have offered up for what many will feel are two rather important anti-climaxes. In my view and without speaking for him (but clearly in Dave's view too I would venture) the rather generous to the perpetrator reasons you have offered up are more than open to challenge. Accepting that challenge and engaging in debate is not repeating yourself but a refusal to do so is in reality copping out of expanding on a bewildering (to me) view of the issues raised. In my world (and yours I would wager)silence is acceptance. xx
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 20, 2016 0:06:40 GMT
I agree with some of that, Dave, and I don't think most of it is directly related to what I actually said, but, as with Mark's post, I'm very happy to let readers make up their own minds on that without repeating myself. Both of us have carefully read your posts and have equally carefully discussed the reasons/excuses (delete as applicable) you have offered up for what many will feel are two rather important anti-climaxes. In my view and without speaking for him (but clearly in Dave's view too I would venture) the rather generous to the perpetrator reasons you have offered up are more than open to challenge. Accepting that challenge and engaging in debate is not repeating yourself but a refusal to do so is in reality copping out of expanding on a bewildering (to me) view of the issues raised. In my world (and yours I would wager)silence is acceptance. xx Did we bottle the semi final first leg a couple of weeks ago or were we just a bit subdued, tired and lost to a better side on the night?
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jan 20, 2016 0:09:29 GMT
Given those results and indeed the accompanying performances you reference, I guess you are supporting the view that the final was bottled? We are witnessing a reasonably sensible discussion (Mr Gloves contributions apart) on how some of the major events of recent times involving Stoke City have been throttled to death and why. Its a perfectly fair discussion to have on a Stoke City message board I would suggest. Handle it or keep off it but you wont stifle it. I'm suggesting we were patched up after a very, very decent run in, which had some great performances, where no quarter was given against those in relegation and title contention. I think Man City played on our problems and tried to kick a couple of our players out of it and with 15 minutes to go, Tommy heroics notwithstanding, we should have taken the lead in our only FA Cup final to date. I know how people should fucking view it but aren't in the slightest bit surprised about how some people choose to. Please don't take this the wrong way but I think we are poles apart in what we desire(ed) from the team after reaching a cup final. From my seat the performance and desire to try and win the game was tepid and inexplicable. I cant accept that the problem with Ethers should have derailed any attempt to win the game in the way it did. Yes Jones should have scored when the clear game plan of hoping that hopeful punt up the field worked for the one and only time but it still disappoints me that this was all we were prepared to offer on such a day. I suspect the day out is the memory most will take from our FA Cup Final. Ditto Valencia. In my view legendary status is not bestowed on a manager who gets so far and chucks the towel in. I'm confident we wouldn't see similar from the current incumbent.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 20, 2016 0:11:58 GMT
I'm suggesting we were patched up after a very, very decent run in, which had some great performances, where no quarter was given against those in relegation and title contention. I think Man City played on our problems and tried to kick a couple of our players out of it and with 15 minutes to go, Tommy heroics notwithstanding, we should have taken the lead in our only FA Cup final to date. I know how people should fucking view it but aren't in the slightest bit surprised about how some people choose to. Please don't take this the wrong way but I think we are poles apart in what we desire(ed) from the team after reaching a cup final. From my seat the performance and desire to try and win the game was tepid and inexplicable. I cant accept that the problem with Ethers should have derailed any attempt to win the game in the way it did. Yes Jones should have scored when the clear game plan of hoping that hopeful punt up the field worked for the one and only time but it still disappoints me that this was all we were prepared to offer on such a day. I suspect the day out is the memory most will take from our FA Cup Final. Ditto Valencia. In my view legendary status is not bestowed on a manager who gets so far and chucks the towel in. I'm confident we wouldn't see similar from the current incumbent. Did we bottle the semi final first leg a couple of weeks ago or were we just a bit subdued, tired and lost to a better side on the night?
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jan 20, 2016 0:12:41 GMT
Both of us have carefully read your posts and have equally carefully discussed the reasons/excuses (delete as applicable) you have offered up for what many will feel are two rather important anti-climaxes. In my view and without speaking for him (but clearly in Dave's view too I would venture) the rather generous to the perpetrator reasons you have offered up are more than open to challenge. Accepting that challenge and engaging in debate is not repeating yourself but a refusal to do so is in reality copping out of expanding on a bewildering (to me) view of the issues raised. In my world (and yours I would wager)silence is acceptance. xx Did we bottle the semi final first leg a couple of weeks ago or were we just a bit subdued, tired and lost to a better side on the night? Taking Malcolm's logic from an earlier post we will be sending the reserves and youth team to Anfield because we are a goal behind. I'll have a bet right now with you that we won't. I think we can both distinguish between a poor performance and a habit of a lifetime can we not?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 20, 2016 0:19:50 GMT
Did we bottle the semi final first leg a couple of weeks ago or were we just a bit subdued, tired and lost to a better side on the night? Taking Malcolm's logic from an earlier post we will be sending the reserves and youth team to Anfield because we are a goal behind. I'll have a bet right now with you that we won't. I think we can both distinguish between a poor performance and a habit of a lifetime can we not? Ok, now we're getting some place, so it was a poor performance and we lost to a better side on the day on the big stage a fortnight ago. The FA Cup final however (after a record breaking performance at the same stadium a month earlier and some highly creditable performances in between) was something completely different in your eyes. An intentional bottle job. Okie dokie. 'Poles apart' certainly sums something up, that is for certain!
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Post by dozintheseventees on Jan 20, 2016 0:26:21 GMT
Did we bottle the semi final first leg a couple of weeks ago or were we just a bit subdued, tired and lost to a better side on the night? Taking Malcolm's logic from an earlier post we will be sending the reserves and youth team to Anfield because we are a goal behind. I'll have a bet right now with you that we won't. I think we can both distinguish between a poor performance and a habit of a lifetime can we not? Mark, I think you make some fair comments, both above and in your response to Malcolm. However, whilst accepting that the two managers take very different approaches it really is fair to accept earlier comments that our sqaud was a much shallower affair back then (Cup Final). Etherington and Huth were vital elements in our team, as was Pennant who was a passenger very early in the game after a crunching couple of 'tackles'. I doubt Hughes would play 'doubtful' player (in terms of fitness/injuries) in such critical games because he has so much more available to him today (and I DO give him credit for that situation). To be fair Mark, Pulis (I would argue) simply wanted to put out our best players to give us a 'fighting chance'. The result was, we played with two ineffective 'key' players and another one was rendered so very early in the game. We had little else available to us to make a huge impact on that game IMO. It really was desperately disappointing. I think, in the particular case of the Cup Final, you're a bit harsh on Pulis. I accept that you have a honestly held opinion in general about his approach to key games and I'm just talking about this one game in particular.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jan 20, 2016 0:28:30 GMT
Taking Malcolm's logic from an earlier post we will be sending the reserves and youth team to Anfield because we are a goal behind. I'll have a bet right now with you that we won't. I think we can both distinguish between a poor performance and a habit of a lifetime can we not? Ok, now we're getting some place, so it was a poor performance and we lost to a better side on the day on the big stage a fortnight ago. The FA Cup final however (after a record breaking performance at the same stadium a month earlier and some highly creditable performances in between) was something completely different in your eyes. An intentional bottle job. Okie dokie. 'Poles apart' certainly sums something up, that is for certain! When you can give me examples of Mark Hughes previous with respect to setting up his side to do nothing but contain, frustrate and hope for the best you are getting somewhere. If you ask me for a list of Tony Pulis doing exactly what I describe you had better have a long length of paper and a lot of patience. You cannot pass off the history of Pulis methodology and pretend it was not applied at Wembley and be credible. Its not a crime to recognise it for what it was. You and I have witnessed it a million times (it feels like) between us. Watch West Brom to update yourself. Nothings changed and nothing did when we went to Wembley for the final.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jan 20, 2016 0:35:43 GMT
Taking Malcolm's logic from an earlier post we will be sending the reserves and youth team to Anfield because we are a goal behind. I'll have a bet right now with you that we won't. I think we can both distinguish between a poor performance and a habit of a lifetime can we not? Mark, I think you make some fair comments, both above and in your response to Malcolm. However, whilst accepting that the two managers take very different approaches it really is fair to accept earlier comments that our sqaud was a much shallower affair back then (Cup Final). Etherington and Huth were vital elements in our team, as was Pennant who was a passenger very early in the game after a crunching couple of 'tackles'. I doubt Hughes would play 'doubtful' player (in terms of fitness/injuries) in such critical games because he has so much more available to him today (and I DO give him credit for that situation). To be fair Mark, Pulis (I would argue) simply wanted to put out our best players to give us a 'fighting chance'. The result was, we played with two ineffective 'key' players and another one was rendered so very early in the game. We had little else available to us to make a huge impact on that game IMO. It really was desperately disappointing. I think, in the particular case of the Cup Final, you're a bit harsh on Pulis. I accept that you have a honestly held opinion in general about his approach to key games and I'm just talking about this one game in particular. Broadly agree with almost all that and yes he attempted to put his considered best players on the pitch. He does likewise to this day regardless of how it compromises the team which is why you end up with Jonny Evans at full back. The point I would make is that he then compensates for the hotch-potch or in the case of the game in question, the disability by reverting to type and hiding the team in front of the penalty area we are defending and hopes for the best. Caution is admirable unless it turns to fear and hoping for the best especially in a knock out situation. True legendary managers don't have that trait do they?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 20, 2016 0:40:56 GMT
Ok, now we're getting some place, so it was a poor performance and we lost to a better side on the day on the big stage a fortnight ago. The FA Cup final however (after a record breaking performance at the same stadium a month earlier and some highly creditable performances in between) was something completely different in your eyes. An intentional bottle job. Okie dokie. 'Poles apart' certainly sums something up, that is for certain! When you can give me examples of Mark Hughes previous with respect to setting up his side to do nothing but contain, frustrate and hope for the best you are getting somewhere. If you ask me for a list of Tony Pulis doing exactly what I describe you had better have a long length of paper and a lot of patience. You cannot pass off the history of Pulis methodology and pretend it was not applied at Wembley and be credible. Its not a crime to recognise it for what it was. You and I have witnessed it a million times (it feels like) between us. Watch West Brom to update yourself. Nothings changed and nothing did when we went to Wembley for the final. So the semi final and the results leading up to the game were effectively accidents? You know as well the injuries caught up with us that day and we still should have gone one up with 15 minutes to play against a better side. Exactly who and how did you want us to play? It was no bottle job, it was a piece of Stoke CIty history and to describe it as one is pretty distasteful stuff. Shame you couldn't have got aboard for the ride.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jan 20, 2016 0:53:34 GMT
When you can give me examples of Mark Hughes previous with respect to setting up his side to do nothing but contain, frustrate and hope for the best you are getting somewhere. If you ask me for a list of Tony Pulis doing exactly what I describe you had better have a long length of paper and a lot of patience. You cannot pass off the history of Pulis methodology and pretend it was not applied at Wembley and be credible. Its not a crime to recognise it for what it was. You and I have witnessed it a million times (it feels like) between us. Watch West Brom to update yourself. Nothings changed and nothing did when we went to Wembley for the final. So the semi final and the results leading up to the game were effectively accidents? You know as well the injuries caught up with us that day and we still should have gone one up with 15 minutes to play against a better side. Exactly who and how did you want us to play? It was no bottle job, it was a piece of Stoke CIty history and to describe it as one is pretty distasteful stuff. Shame you couldn't have got aboard for the ride. Clearly turning up was good enough for you. That is fair enough. I would have liked to see us have a go. That is how I expect and hope any Stoke side will go about their business cup final or no cup final. So do most supporters I imagine. You are possibly an exception. The Pulis way is contrary to that for the vast majority of games. Again I commend watching West Brom as a reminder. In there lies the very soul of why I personally hold the likes of Macari and Hughes in far higher esteem than Pulis.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Jan 20, 2016 0:56:18 GMT
With two 'key' players little more than passengers and our other (attacking flair) player taken out of the game early, I just don't think we had the ammunition available, either on the pitch or on the bench, to take the game to Manchester City that day. I think we just did what we could to give us a chance of getting a result i.e. stopping them from playing.
We did that pretty effectively and Manchester City were a much bigger disappointment than us on the day given the 'riches' available to them on the pitch and the bench.
It was hugely disappointing but very harsh to lay all that at the manager's feet given the prevailing circumstances.
Honestly Mark, if Etherington was fully fit and on top of his game and Pennant hadn't got injured so early, do you really think we would be talking in these terms now?
We simply didn't have the talent available on the day so he reverted to type and tried to stay in the game to give us a chance............it NEARLY worked, however disappointing it was to watch and I think it's harsh to be too critical under the circumstances.
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Post by ParaPsych on Jan 20, 2016 1:00:37 GMT
We played with the exact same tactics and approach we'd used successfully in the previous weeks' games. It just didn't work and the players couldn't get going at all. Pulis didn't bottle anything in terms of changing our approach in any way to something more negative*. If he'd suddenly changed our whole approach for that one match it would have been bizarte. If he failed at anything it was probably giving the players the necessary confidence required for such a big game, but that's not exactly an exact science as they were full of beans in the semi.
It wasn't really a Gudjon at Walsall style tactical meltdown for me though. Now that was a full on bottle job where he just lost his mind and went with something really weird.
* I'm fully aware that some would find that impossible.
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 20, 2016 1:09:50 GMT
I thought we lost the cup final because the ref was crap and two of our stand-out players were bolloxed. Personally, I wouldn't mention the cup final in the same sentence as the debacle in Valencia. Oh... I just did. OS.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jan 20, 2016 1:09:51 GMT
With two 'key' players little more than passengers and our other (attacking flair) player taken out of the game early, I just don't think we had the ammunition available, either on the pitch or on the bench, to take the game to Manchester City that day. I think we just did what we could to give us a chance of getting a result i.e. stopping them from playing. We did that pretty effectively and Manchester City were a much bigger disappointment than us on the day given the 'riches' available to them on the pitch and the bench. It was hugely disappointing but very harsh to lay all that at the manager's feet given the prevailing circumstances. Honestly Mark, if Etherington was fully fit and on top of his game and Pennant hadn't got injured so early, do you really think we would be talking in these terms now? We simply didn't have the talent available on the day so he reverted to type and tried to stay in the game to give us a chance............it NEARLY worked, however disappointing it was to watch and I think it's harsh to be too critical under the circumstances. I'd be able to engage in that view more readily Doz if there hadn't been a long history of the negative approach to big (bonus) games previous to the games in question and more tellingly perhaps in the light of what went on for the seasons that followed before Pulis was removed. If he truly had the more expansive idea in mind why was it buried after Wembley and why did Valencia occur? He actually dismantled the system and approach Sheiky describes in the "Golden" few weeks and never attempted to return to it. He actively recruited to strip the pace out of the side. Yes he has a paranoia regarding not playing all of the players he considers his best regardless of how he has to shoehorn them in and regardless of their fitness but we cannot get away from the fact that he was prepared to do that and shut up shop. He never gave us a chance of having a go due to his own prejudices and fear. And so it has always been and will always be with him. Amen.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Jan 20, 2016 1:11:35 GMT
We played with the exact same tactics and approach we'd used successfully in the previous weeks' games. It just didn't work and the players couldn't get going at all. Pulis didn't bottle anything in terms of changing our approach in any way to something more negative*. If he'd suddenly changed our whole approach for that one match it would have been bizarte. If he failed at anything it was probably giving the players the necessary confidence required for such a big game, but that's not exactly an exact science as they were full of beans in the semi. It wasn't really a Gudjon at Walsall style tactical meltdown for me though. Now that was a full on bottle job where he just lost his mind and went with something really weird. * I'm fully aware that some would find that impossible. I refuse to engage with you. You reminded me of Walsall. Shudder!
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