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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Dec 30, 2015 10:48:01 GMT
Equally where is the media stuff about stones inexperience what if he made that tackle in France last Minute blah blah
Come on little owl let's see then defence of that one
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 30, 2015 10:49:55 GMT
This. 100% spot on. The goal was a worldy. Only an idiot (or three) would say otherwise. Well I hope I'm not an "idiot" but I'm not convinced he meant it. Only he knows, but if didn't mean it, he's hardly likely to own up, is he, given the praise being heaped on him. But the real point, surely, is that it's not worth arguing about because it doesn't matter the proverbial tinker's does it ? As they say in cricket, look in the scorebook. He scored twice and we won. Nothing else really matters. I hear you - but I'll disagree a little. Winning is great, of course. Winning with style is wonderful. I've waited nigh on 40 years to see a Stoke team playing football that leaves me hungry for more. Having idiot MOTD pundits diminish a great Stoke moment is irritating. Not very irritating - akin to a midge bite - but it does provoke an itch or two.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 11:35:17 GMT
Inside or outside the box, Stones' tackle was a foul for being a tackle from behind that brought the man down.
Anyroad, a friend of mine is surprised at mild-mannered me disliking Martinez as I do. I see him as the worm who'd pursuade the fish to swap places.
So I loved seeing Martinez when he was losing three times. Best of all was his anti-penalty rant and then his going on to blame his players', his players', game management and his young players inexperience. Sure Baines and Jagielka were out and they were missed but, hey, LMH & Co had a great many players out last season, never played the excuse card and said we've other guys who now get the chance they've earned.
The Grauniad's verdict included:
'One of the games of the season produced one of the goals of the season but, worryingly for Roberto Martínez, the story of Everton’s season continued uninterrupted. The Everton manager blamed the referee, Mark Clattenburg, for Stoke City’s late, late victory at Goodison Park when greater responsibility lay with the defensive vulnerability that has stranded his gifted team in mid-table. The mantle of winless entertainers is taking hold.'
Bareth Garry has apparently broken ranks saying, allegedly:
“We have just got ourselves to blame. We’ve been in this situation many times before and clearly we have not learned our lesson. You get that sort of game and then find yourself ahead and with 12, 15 minutes to go, we’ve not got ourselves in a position, or in formation on the pitch, to close the game out.
“We need to change our mentality and as a team being able to realise the situation of the game. We have got attacking players that do want to score goals but once you get ahead in an end-to-end game like that there is an opportunity to win, which is the third goal for us, and we need to close the game out. We have to change our mentality that we don’t need to score again but need to keep a clean sheet to win the game.”
I don't think we've been credited with our going for the jugular in the Manure and Everton games. We started off cocky v Manure and exploited their shot nerves so much that they passed back to De Gea rather than build from the back. With Everton we went after them, maybe at their most vulnerable, when they stepped their foot off the gas shortly after taking the lead at 3-2, and without Bojan or Shaquiri on the pitch.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 12:11:20 GMT
I thought Pawson got it right. Far more clear cut than Arnie's! Just my opinion of course. The defender clearly got the ball first.
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Post by metalhead on Dec 30, 2015 12:14:06 GMT
I thought it was a penalty. Pawson was not good imo.
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Post by markfitdt on Dec 30, 2015 12:18:19 GMT
Yep, definite penalty for me too. Defender didn't get near the ball as far as I could see.
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Post by Gods on Dec 30, 2015 12:29:59 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03cg2sn#playRadio Merseyside post-match phone-in Didn't realise how little credit he has in the bank in the blue half of Scouseland. Bloody hell, every caller is demanding his sacking And their summariser really rates Stoke. Weird isn't it, they look a very, very good side to me. I notice Graham Taylor is tipping them for the 4th Champions League spot.
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Post by march4 on Dec 30, 2015 12:46:25 GMT
Martinez is just a relegation manager who has a good striker.
I'm sure the Everton board have worked out that last season Lukaku's goals earned them 8pts. Take those points away and they would have been in serious relegation trouble, finally finishing level with Newcastle.
This season, his goals have already earned 7pts. Without those they would be level with Swansea and in deep, deep trouble.
If a big club come in for Lukaku next month, we can all watch Everton slither down the Prem.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 30, 2015 13:26:23 GMT
I'm loving this debate and find it v funny that the people who generally say no it was a pass are those who just wouldn't have a chance of doing it - shearer, lineker, redknapp, wright etc etc - all English forwards who will have found themselves in that exact position at some point in their careers and blasted it into row Z or squared it.
The one stand out point from Keown is that he saw Henry and Bergkamp do it routinely at Arsenal. Guess what? They're non-english too! So, yes it's quite possible to have that ability provided you didn't learn the game in england!!
For me this goes further than just a debate about whether Shaq meant it or not and absolutely sums up the difference in quality between english and european footballing ability.
sad but at the same time funny and quite enlighening as to why england always do so badly!!
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Post by PotteringThrough on Dec 30, 2015 13:30:08 GMT
I'm loving this debate and find it v funny that the people who generally say no it was a pass are those who just wouldn't have a chance of doing it - shearer, lineker, redknapp, wright etc etc - all English forwards who will have found themselves in that exact position at some point in their careers and blasted it into row Z or squared it. The one stand out point from Keown is that he saw Henry and Bergkamp do it routinely at Arsenal. Guess what? They're non-english too! So, yes it's quite possible to have that ability provided you didn't learn the game in england!! For me this goes further than just a debate about whether Shaq meant it or not and absolutely sums up the difference in quality between english and european footballing ability. sad but at the same time funny and quite enlighening as to why england always do so badly!! Good points - if Barkley had done it I think they would have said he meant because he's probably one of the very few English players that could pull it off. It woul be interesting to see the debate then.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 14:04:25 GMT
To Quote Winston Churchill
'the mountain hath groaned and, given forth --- a mouse'
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Post by Cast no shadow on Dec 30, 2015 14:22:52 GMT
If if wasn't for lukaku they wouldn't be far off bottom 3.
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Post by gonk on Dec 30, 2015 14:32:46 GMT
Martinez is just a relegation manager who has a good striker. I'm sure the Everton board have worked out that last season Lukaku's goals earned them 8pts. Take those points away and they would have been in serious relegation trouble, finally finishing level with Newcastle. This season, his goals have already earned 7pts. Without those they would be level with Swansea and in deep, deep trouble. If a big club come in for Lukaku next month, we can all watch Everton slither down the Prem. He's another ex swansea con man,ones been found out,He's had a easy time after what he did at Wigan and i am sure the Everton fans where moaning about him last season.So another couple of poor results will be interesting.
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Post by colinroberts1 on Dec 30, 2015 14:37:06 GMT
Didn't ryan do same sort of tackle ,not in the box,at Sunderland away for 2nd booking ?? No, Ryan never came through the back of a player and swept his legs away for good measure, he came in from the side and toe poked the ball away from danger Yeah sorry,should of put that some people making out wasn't a penno coz got the ball.ryan got the ball an still sent off,but some are up in arms because a decision went in our favour .Sunderland player fell over a daisy or sumat and arnie was wiped out from stones right foot/leg.wonder if Martinez would have said his side didn't deserve penno if was at other end !! Hmmmmmmm don't think he would of somehow ????
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Post by sportsman on Dec 30, 2015 15:18:11 GMT
I wouldn't have stones anywhere near stoke's first eleven. He may turn out ok in years from now I don't know, but at the moment he's average at best. If he wasn't English Chelsea wouldn't have even come in for him.
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 30, 2015 15:25:21 GMT
I love this idea that the issue is not even up for debate. People are angrily looking for "proof" that he meant it and conjuring up elaborate theories that Lineker, Shearer, Wright (three of the best forwards ever to play the game, by the way) are "jealous" to try and explain why anyone is doubting it. Jealous! If Shaqiri has anything like the career those three had he'll be a lucky boy. It's nothing to do with his capability, it's nothing to do with jealousy or inability to comprehend that kind of skill, it's nothing to do with the fact that it's a Stoke player and not an Arsenal or Barcelona player. It's to do with the fact that it looked like he was trying to square it. End of story
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 30, 2015 15:28:38 GMT
I love this idea that the issue is not even up for debate. People are angrily looking for "proof" that he meant it and conjuring up elaborate theories that Lineker, Shearer, Wright (three of the best forwards ever to play the game, by the way) are "jealous" to try and explain why anyone is doubting it. Jealous! If Shaqiri has anything like the career those three had he'll be a lucky boy. It's nothing to do with his capability, it's nothing to do with jealousy or inability to comprehend that kind of skill, it's nothing to do with the fact that it's a Stoke player and not an Arsenal or Barcelona player. It's to do with the fact that it looked like he was trying to square it. End of story If that was an attempt to square it, I might take my boots down the next game. I could do something that fucking horrendously poor.
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 30, 2015 15:29:58 GMT
It was always about winning the ball but over the years people have drastically confused this with 'touching the ball'. Touching the ball, and it not really changing anything, is definitely not 'winning the ball'. Fucking love Arnie though It is like saying he was "entitled to go down", which mean`s cheating,he did not win the ball, move the ball from it`s trajectory or accelerate it`s progress if his tackle had not stopped Arnie it was still playable = penalty
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 30, 2015 15:33:08 GMT
I love this idea that the issue is not even up for debate. People are angrily looking for "proof" that he meant it and conjuring up elaborate theories that Lineker, Shearer, Wright (three of the best forwards ever to play the game, by the way) are "jealous" to try and explain why anyone is doubting it. Jealous! If Shaqiri has anything like the career those three had he'll be a lucky boy. It's nothing to do with his capability, it's nothing to do with jealousy or inability to comprehend that kind of skill, it's nothing to do with the fact that it's a Stoke player and not an Arsenal or Barcelona player. It's to do with the fact that it looked like he was trying to square it. End of story If that was an attempt to square it, I might take my boots down the next game. I could do something that fucking horrendously poor. Sometimes things don't come off, it's normal. It's not as if it would even be the first time for Shaq in a Stoke shirt
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Post by passtheoatcakes on Dec 30, 2015 15:37:52 GMT
Not sure what Martinez has done to deserve all the vitriol. MLH would have been similarly unhappy when interviewed if we lost in the 90th minute to a penalty decision which, whether right or wrong, was marginal. The overrated idiot has previous with us and I have never hidden the fact that I think the guy (along with Monkfish and uncle Woy) are the three most arrogant football managers I have ever had the misfortune to come across. I would like to see all three well out of the game and off our tv screens for good. One down, two to go As for the game, I am still replaying the full 90 mins and basking in the victory as we were magnificent to a man, so proud of our lads!!! plus I love to see the pained look on Bob's face as we outplayed his bunch of starlets, UTP!!!!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 30, 2015 15:42:31 GMT
I love this idea that the issue is not even up for debate. People are angrily looking for "proof" that he meant it and conjuring up elaborate theories that Lineker, Shearer, Wright (three of the best forwards ever to play the game, by the way) are "jealous" to try and explain why anyone is doubting it. Jealous! If Shaqiri has anything like the career those three had he'll be a lucky boy. It's nothing to do with his capability, it's nothing to do with jealousy or inability to comprehend that kind of skill, it's nothing to do with the fact that it's a Stoke player and not an Arsenal or Barcelona player. It's to do with the fact that it looked like he was trying to square it. End of story
I agree with all of that except for the last two words of your second to last sentence.
I think the premise of what your saying is absolutely spot on but I think the reason people are questioning whether he meant it or not, is because if he did, it was an almost other worldly piece of skill, more ... "how on earth could he have meant THAT?"
It's like the Bergkamp turn, world class player playing for big English club but there was STILL endless debate in the media about whether he meant it or not. You're right the fact that it's Shaqiri playing for Stoke is completely irrelevant.
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Post by Gods on Dec 30, 2015 15:52:58 GMT
You are looking at 2 massive coincidences here for this to be a fluke. First that a player of Shaq's quality misdirects a 20 yard pass by 45 degrees (a rare event but could happen) and second that it is misdirected in such a way that it lands in the diametrically opposite top corner of the net having passed in a perfect arc over the keepers head. Put those 2 things together and you are looking at the flukiest fluke of all time I would suggest. You'd have to believe in fairies at the end of the garden wouldn't you to think those 2 things might happen at the same time in that way
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 30, 2015 16:01:06 GMT
You are looking at 2 massive coincidences here for this to be a fluke. First that a player of Shaq's quality misdirects a 20 yard pass by 45 degrees (a very rare event but could happen) and second that it is misdirected in such a way that it lands in the diametrically opposite top corner of the net having passed in a perfect arc over the keepers head. Put those 2 things together and you are looking at the flukiest fluke of all time I would suggest. You'd have to believe in fairies at the end of the garden wouldn't you for those 2 thing to happen at the same time in that way Once connection is made he never takes his eye from the ultimate destination of the ball. If you'd shanked something so horribly your reaction would be entirely different
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Post by cheadlepotter on Dec 30, 2015 16:04:03 GMT
I love this idea that the issue is not even up for debate. People are angrily looking for "proof" that he meant it and conjuring up elaborate theories that Lineker, Shearer, Wright (three of the best forwards ever to play the game, by the way) are "jealous" to try and explain why anyone is doubting it. Jealous! If Shaqiri has anything like the career those three had he'll be a lucky boy. It's nothing to do with his capability, it's nothing to do with jealousy or inability to comprehend that kind of skill, it's nothing to do with the fact that it's a Stoke player and not an Arsenal or Barcelona player. It's to do with the fact that it looked like he was trying to square it. End of story I'm quite sure that if you asked football fans accross the world to list the best forwards ever there wouldn't be much mention of Shearer or Wright. Now I've had a right telling off for suggesting that there should be no debate about whether he meant the shot or not, but as I believe he meant it so much so that I can't see how he possibly couldn't, please could you explain why it looked like he was trying to square it? It wouldn't be the first time I'm missing something!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 16:06:19 GMT
It was always about winning the ball but over the years people have drastically confused this with 'touching the ball'. Touching the ball, and it not really changing anything, is definitely not 'winning the ball'. Fucking love Arnie though It is like he was "entitled to go down", which mean`s cheating,he did not win the ball, move the ball from it`s trajectory or accelerate it`s progress if his tackle had not stopped Arnie it was still playable = penalty That's another little bit of sick in my mouth too
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Post by trentvale68 on Dec 30, 2015 16:11:26 GMT
I cant see how its even up for debate; the whole way he looks up and shapes his body shows he meant it. If that was a mishit its the worst ive ever seen!!
You can see him wheeling away but with an eye just to see if it goes in, Ive NEVER seen a player cross a ball and act in the same manner. It is glaringly obvious he meant it - there isn't a hint of surprise in his manner. I love the way it doesn't just dip but swerves as well - did he catch it with the outside of his boot??
Its a great goal but there is no scientific way to prove the intention though for me there is enough evidence to suggest a genuine attempt over a mishit cross. At least 70/30 in favour.
Only on the Oatcake would folk be so cynical as to not give their own player the benefit of the doubt!!
We have good players who can now & then score worldies - get used to it!!!
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Post by Rick Grimes on Dec 30, 2015 16:14:01 GMT
Keown nails it with his view
"As the ball arrives Shaqiri has time and space — don’t get me started on the positioning of the full back — to think about what he wants to do. Yes, he glances across to his team-mate to see if he’s in space but it’s where he looks afterwards that is the giveaway for me.
When you look at the reverse angle, just watch Shaqiri’s face after he’s made contact. If he was trying to cross it, he would instinctively look to his left to see if his pass was heading in the right direction. But he doesn’t. He looks straight ahead, because he knows exactly where the ball is going.
As soon as it leaves his foot he is following it in every step of the way — his eyes never move. The camera does a good job of proving that."
I've watched it several times and as he's off towards the corner flag to celebrate before it's anywhere near the back of the net, he just couldn't do it so quickly unless he knew exactly where the ball was going.
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 30, 2015 16:17:00 GMT
I love this idea that the issue is not even up for debate. People are angrily looking for "proof" that he meant it and conjuring up elaborate theories that Lineker, Shearer, Wright (three of the best forwards ever to play the game, by the way) are "jealous" to try and explain why anyone is doubting it. Jealous! If Shaqiri has anything like the career those three had he'll be a lucky boy. It's nothing to do with his capability, it's nothing to do with jealousy or inability to comprehend that kind of skill, it's nothing to do with the fact that it's a Stoke player and not an Arsenal or Barcelona player. It's to do with the fact that it looked like he was trying to square it. End of story
I agree with all of that except for the last two words of your second to last sentence.
I think the premise of what your saying is absolutely spot on but I think the reason people are questioning whether he meant it or not, is because if he did, it was an almost other worldly piece of skill, more ... "how on earth could he have meant THAT?"
It's like the Bergkamp turn, world class player playing for big English club but there was STILL endless debate in the media about whether he meant it or not. You're right the fact that it's Shaqiri playing for Stoke is completely irrelevant.
Two sides of the same coin I think. There has to be something somewhat unnatural-looking about it for people to question it - in Bergkamp's case I guess people were expecting him to drag the ball round to his left, with Shaqiri the strike is not an "orthodox" chip, and the way he quickly cut across the ball makes it appear he's going for the pull-back. The ball spinning off his foot the way it did means he either spooned it, or it was the other-worldly piece of skill you refer to.
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 30, 2015 16:17:57 GMT
It is like he was "entitled to go down", which mean`s cheating,he did not win the ball, move the ball from it`s trajectory or accelerate it`s progress if his tackle had not stopped Arnie it was still playable = penalty That's another little bit of sick in my mouth too i would rather lose than cheat, Suarez was my anti-Christ, i hated him more than anyone.
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Post by trentvale68 on Dec 30, 2015 16:23:04 GMT
Keown nails it with his view "As the ball arrives Shaqiri has time and space — don’t get me started on the positioning of the full back — to think about what he wants to do. Yes, he glances across to his team-mate to see if he’s in space but it’s where he looks afterwards that is the giveaway for me. When you look at the reverse angle, just watch Shaqiri’s face after he’s made contact. If he was trying to cross it, he would instinctively look to his left to see if his pass was heading in the right direction. But he doesn’t. He looks straight ahead, because he knows exactly where the ball is going. As soon as it leaves his foot he is following it in every step of the way — his eyes never move. The camera does a good job of proving that." I've watched it several times and as he's off towards the corner flag to celebrate before it's anywhere near the back of the net, he just couldn't do it so quickly unless he knew exactly where the ball was going. Stop The Press - a sensible post on the oatcake!
Youre bang on mate, I guess people have just been too spoiled by years of big lads bundling the ball into the net (not that I wouldn't like to see that a bit more this season at times)
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