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Post by kevkj on Dec 3, 2015 15:52:54 GMT
Yep I find the day pretty much the same as ever until I enter the ground, great atmosphere in town ,singing on the shuttle buses then into the ground and dead, theres thousands of singers still in the ground they are all just diluted. That's why I have always said fill in a corner and make it a designated singing area,kill two birds with one stone. Higher attendance and singers together,
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Post by dozintheseventees on Dec 3, 2015 16:03:38 GMT
Yep I find the day pretty much the same as ever until I enter the ground, great atmosphere in town ,singing on the shuttle buses then into the ground and dead, theres thousands of singers still in the ground they are all just diluted. That's why I have always said fill in a corner and make it a designated singing area,kill two birds with one stone. Higher attendance and singers together, Trouble is Kev, singing and atmosphere only really work when they happen naturally and so rarely is the case nowadays. In years gone by football grounds all had their own songs, as well as those that were sung by all and they were often amusing, often crude, often offensive but made for a fantastic atmosphere. At today's games it just all seems so reluctant, done out of duty and....frankly.....boring. I cringe everytime that bloody awful chant of 'Oh when the reds' starts up because it's NEVER been a Stoke song and it just comes over as our 'token gesture' of support. It's not just Stoke though. I think you'll find most supporters of most clubs will say the same. You can't 'engineer' a great atmosphere. It has to come naturally.
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Post by foster on Dec 3, 2015 16:29:28 GMT
Can't relate to The OP as I wasn't around back then.
If I were based in Stoke I'd get a season ticket without doubt though.
I understand if you can't afford it or spare the time, but the rest is just a poor excuse.
Reminds me of when posters start threads saying they're leaving the oatcake.
Deserters.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 16:55:43 GMT
Can't relate to The OP as I wasn't around back then. If I were based in Stoke I'd get a season ticket without doubt though. I understand if you can't afford it or spare the time, but the rest is just a poor excuse. Reminds me of when posters start threads saying they're leaving the oatcake. Deserters. Deserters ? Fookin deserters ? Do you not know our club history ? If we were deserters we'd have lost interest in the early 80's, when away grounds were shocking and the football atrocious. When travelling to away games meant four hours stuck in the back of a transit van with a dozen other 'deserters', all to watch yet another dire performance and more often than not another defeat. Funny how we can stick by the club through those dark days then get labelled deserters for not being at every Prem game. Typical post from the 'modern era' supporter.
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Post by geoffsalmons on Dec 3, 2015 17:21:45 GMT
Surely the more real supporters who 'give in' due to the JCL's are just adding to the issue as their seat will be taken by another JCL. For the record I agree with many of the frustrations but having had a few years off when the kids were growing up I feel privileged to see MY team back in the top league bloodying the noses of the big boys. I dont understand the comments that winning a cup is now the height or our ambitions- I dont recall us ever really having a chance of winning the league even in the seventies
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Post by foster on Dec 3, 2015 17:21:45 GMT
Can't relate to The OP as I wasn't around back then. If I were based in Stoke I'd get a season ticket without doubt though. I understand if you can't afford it or spare the time, but the rest is just a poor excuse. Reminds me of when posters start threads saying they're leaving the oatcake. Deserters. Deserters ? Fookin deserters ? Do you not know our club history ? If we were deserters we'd have lost interest in the early 80's, when away grounds were shocking and the football atrocious. When travelling to away games meant four hours stuck in the back of a transit van with a dozen other 'deserters', all to watch yet another dire performance and more often than not another defeat. Funny how we can stick by the club through those dark days then get labelled deserters for not being at every Prem game. Typical post from the 'modern era' supporter. Yeah, I can't think of any better reason to give up a ST than the guy next to me doesn't sing enough. I don't get why anyone would want to give up their ticket now and that's my opinion. If people don't like it then they shouldn't start threads about it.
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Post by kustokie on Dec 3, 2015 18:11:58 GMT
Surely the more real supporters who 'give in' due to the JCL's are just adding to the issue as their seat will be taken by another JCL. For the record I agree with many of the frustrations but having had a few years off when the kids were growing up I feel privileged to see MY team back in the top league bloodying the noses of the big boys. I dont understand the comments that winning a cup is now the height or our ambitions- I dont recall us ever really having a chance of winning the league even in the seventies If memory serves me correctly, we came very close to winning the league in '73. We were top with only a few games to go and choked, ending up 5th or 6th to the Sheep Shaggers. Need to check my facts. Edit. It was '73-'74 and we finished 5th behind Leeds United (remember them!).
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Post by pottersrule on Dec 3, 2015 18:22:50 GMT
Can't relate to The OP as I wasn't around back then. If I were based in Stoke I'd get a season ticket without doubt though. I understand if you can't afford it or spare the time, but the rest is just a poor excuse. Reminds me of when posters start threads saying they're leaving the oatcake. Deserters. Feel the same,I've been watching Stoke for nearly 50 years,and am enjoying it more now than ever.Would the OP prefer us to get relegated? Bloody bizarre post imo.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 18:24:29 GMT
Surely the more real supporters who 'give in' due to the JCL's are just adding to the issue as their seat will be taken by another JCL. For the record I agree with many of the frustrations but having had a few years off when the kids were growing up I feel privileged to see MY team back in the top league bloodying the noses of the big boys. I dont understand the comments that winning a cup is now the height or our ambitions- I dont recall us ever really having a chance of winning the league even in the seventies If memory serves me correctly, we came very close to winning the league in '73. We were top with only a few games to go and choked, ending up 5th or 6th to the Sheep Shaggers. Need to check my facts. Edit. It was '73-'74 and we finished 5th behind Leeds United (remember them!). Check again mate. We were a mile behind Leeds that year. It was the following season where we came close. Finished four points behind Derby, but if memory serves me right, we were still in with a mathematical chance going into the final game, but all the results went against us. We also had a shocking injury list with broken legs being suffered by Ritchie, Robertson, Pejic and Smith, as well as being without Alan Bloor for almost the entire season. Fate was never our best friend.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 3, 2015 18:27:58 GMT
Yep I find the day pretty much the same as ever until I enter the ground, great atmosphere in town ,singing on the shuttle buses then into the ground and dead, theres thousands of singers still in the ground they are all just diluted. That's why I have always said fill in a corner and make it a designated singing area,kill two birds with one stone. Higher attendance and singers together, Trouble is Kev, singing and atmosphere only really work when they happen naturally and so rarely is the case nowadays. In years gone by football grounds all had their own songs, as well as those that were sung by all and they were often amusing, often crude, often offensive but made for a fantastic atmosphere. At today's games it just all seems so reluctant, done out of duty and....frankly.....boring. I cringe everytime that bloody awful chant of 'Oh when the reds' starts up because it's NEVER been a Stoke song and it just comes over as our 'token gesture' of support. It's not just Stoke though. I think you'll find most supporters of most clubs will say the same. You can't 'engineer' a great atmosphere. It has to come naturally. I went to my first Stoke game in 1982, have been a season ticket holder since 1989 and have gone to the vast majority of away games as well since 1992. During that time "Oh when the Reds" has always been sung by Stoke fans. In no way, shape or form, does singing that song feel like a token gesture to me.
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Post by pmjh on Dec 3, 2015 18:33:44 GMT
The atmosphere has more to do with who we are playing and how we think the game might go. Only 7 or 8 years ago in the same ground with the same fans the atmosphere was electric because it was us against the world.The difference now is we often expect to win games and it isn't the same unless we are playing a big team or we think we have been wronged like the WBA game
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Post by dozintheseventees on Dec 3, 2015 18:41:04 GMT
Trouble is Kev, singing and atmosphere only really work when they happen naturally and so rarely is the case nowadays. In years gone by football grounds all had their own songs, as well as those that were sung by all and they were often amusing, often crude, often offensive but made for a fantastic atmosphere. At today's games it just all seems so reluctant, done out of duty and....frankly.....boring. I cringe everytime that bloody awful chant of 'Oh when the reds' starts up because it's NEVER been a Stoke song and it just comes over as our 'token gesture' of support. It's not just Stoke though. I think you'll find most supporters of most clubs will say the same. You can't 'engineer' a great atmosphere. It has to come naturally. I went to my first Stoke game in 1982, have been a season ticket holder since 1989 and have gone to the vast majority of away games as well since 1992. During that time "Oh when the Reds" has always been sung by Stoke fans. In no way, shape or form, does singing that song feel like a token gesture to me. I went my first game in 1963 and, like yourself, have been practically everywhere (in England) following the club and there have been a whole host of songs sung in that time. 'Oh when the reds' has been sung sparringly over those years and has never been a regular until recent years when, quite frankly, we've run out of songs. It isn't THE SONG per se that I have a problem with, it's the feeling that we have nothing else to offer by way of support nowadays other than the occasional Delilah and consequently, it gets done to death. That's what I mean by 'token gesture'. Prior to recent years, it's a song you'd here once in a while. Personally, I've never considered it appropriate to Stoke.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 18:42:27 GMT
The atmosphere has more to do with who we are playing and how we think the game might go. Only 7 or 8 years ago in the same ground with the same fans the atmosphere was electric because it was us against the world.The difference now is we often expect to win games and it isn't the same unless we are playing a big team or we think we have been wronged like the WBA game But if you go back to the Macari 3rd division years, we were extremely loud and proud, and we went into almost every match expecting to walk over the opposition. After that, prior to the Pulis promotion season, the place was like a morgue. The first two seasons in the Premier League were a bit of a blip in my opinion. I agree we're loudest when we're being worked over by some twat of a ref though.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 3, 2015 18:45:34 GMT
I went to my first Stoke game in 1982, have been a season ticket holder since 1989 and have gone to the vast majority of away games as well since 1992. During that time "Oh when the Reds" has always been sung by Stoke fans. In no way, shape or form, does singing that song feel like a token gesture to me. I went my first game in 1963 and, like yourself, have been practically everywhere (in England) following the club and there have been a whole host of songs sung in that time. 'Oh when the reds' has been sung sparringly over those years and has never been a regular until recent years when, quite frankly, we've run out of songs. It isn't THE SONG per se that I have a problem with, it's the feeling that we have nothing else to offer by way of support nowadays other than the occasional Delilah and consequently, it gets done to death. That's what I mean by 'token gesture'. Prior to recent years, it's a song you'd here once in a while. Personally, I've never considered it appropriate to Stoke. Been going since '65 and this sums it up for me as well. PS It's "red and white army" as well. We onner barmy ffs.
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Post by pmjh on Dec 3, 2015 18:52:34 GMT
The atmosphere has more to do with who we are playing and how we think the game might go. Only 7 or 8 years ago in the same ground with the same fans the atmosphere was electric because it was us against the world.The difference now is we often expect to win games and it isn't the same unless we are playing a big team or we think we have been wronged like the WBA game But if you go back to the Macari 3rd division years, we were extremely loud and proud, and we went into almost every match expecting to walk over the opposition. After that, prior to the Pulis promotion season, the place was like a morgue. The first two seasons in the Premier League were a bit of a blip in my opinion. I agree we're loudest when we're being worked over by some twat of a ref though. Yes the Macari promotion year was a great atmosphere but we were top of the league and on a 26 match unbeaten run. There were plenty of years before and after that when the atmosphere was shit at times. I'm sure if we were doing a Leicester the atmosphere would be amazing. My point is I've been supporting Stoke since the seventies and there has always been good and bad games in terms of atmosphere. But hey Christmas isn't the same anymore, Wagon wheels are smaller etc etc
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 3, 2015 18:54:23 GMT
I went to my first Stoke game in 1982, have been a season ticket holder since 1989 and have gone to the vast majority of away games as well since 1992. During that time "Oh when the Reds" has always been sung by Stoke fans. In no way, shape or form, does singing that song feel like a token gesture to me. I went my first game in 1963 and, like yourself, have been practically everywhere (in England) following the club and there have been a whole host of songs sung in that time. 'Oh when the reds' has been sung sparringly over those years and has never been a regular until recent years when, quite frankly, we've run out of songs. It isn't THE SONG per se that I have a problem with, it's the feeling that we have nothing else to offer by way of support nowadays other than the occasional Delilah and consequently, it gets done to death. That's what I mean by 'token gesture'. Prior to recent years, it's a song you'd here once in a while. Personally, I've never considered it appropriate to Stoke. I wasn't born in 1963 so I can't comment on the years that came before I started attending but certainly since I've been going, its a song that has been sung regularly. It would be aired at least once a game but back in those days (pre-Premiership era), it used to be sung fairly quickly and with lots of clapping, hence was perhaps more sparingly used that the modern day, slower version. Anything which helps to create an incessant noise without inane hand clapping is fine by me. I like the current version of "oh when the reds". The version sung in Croatia v Hadjuk Split was extra special. I think the "come on you reds" chant should be brought back when we have corners and free kicks as well. Always loved it when the Boothen End in the Victoria Ground chanted that with the full on "throw of the arm" as well. We'll be with you, Oh When the Reds, come on you reds, Mark Hughes Red and White Army (not Mark Hughes Barmy Army clap clap clap or Mark Hughes Barmy Army we hate vale versions) should be THE songs that help to generate and sustain an atmosphere both home and away. I love a good sing song but in all honesty, I rarely can be arsed because of the sheer speed that certain sections of our support sing at and because of the ridiculous hand clapping which has even sneaked into We'll be with you now. Delilah has all but been destroyed by the "block 19'ers" who are a good 5 seconds ahead of everyone else.
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Post by lordb on Dec 3, 2015 18:57:48 GMT
Songs come and go.
As long as we sing something decent,or at all,is fine by me.
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Post by Kjones9 on Dec 3, 2015 19:00:05 GMT
I love the pompous looking down your noses at block 19.
If it wasn't for block 19 there would be very little sung in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 19:01:58 GMT
But if you go back to the Macari 3rd division years, we were extremely loud and proud, and we went into almost every match expecting to walk over the opposition. After that, prior to the Pulis promotion season, the place was like a morgue. The first two seasons in the Premier League were a bit of a blip in my opinion. I agree we're loudest when we're being worked over by some twat of a ref though. Yes the Macari promotion year was a great atmosphere but we were top of the league and on a 26 match unbeaten run. There were plenty of years before and after that when the atmosphere was shit at times. I'm sure if we were doing a Leicester the atmosphere would be amazing. My point is I've been supporting Stoke since the seventies and there has always been good and bad games in terms of atmosphere. But hey Christmas isn't the same anymore, Wagon wheels are smaller etc etc I was making the point that expecting to win games shouldn't lead to a poor atmosphere. Fact is, trying to maintain an atmosphere week in week out is a lot more difficult when you're sitting, particularly as it also means you can't get into the big 'gang of lads' that you could before. That's how the chants would always start. Very difficult to do when all 'the lads' are dotted around the ground in twos and threes.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 3, 2015 19:06:32 GMT
I love the pompous looking down your noses at block 19. If it wasn't for block 19 there would be very little sung in the first place. That is a very fair point but for me, they sum up the youth of today. They have little respect for history or tradition, make no attempt to understand it and embrace it and through sheer stupidity ride rough shod over it. At home games, Block 19 destroy many a good song. They ruin Delilah completely, they never sing in time with the rest of the ground if a song has started elsewhere and the inane clapping to absolutely everything is a trait almost exclusively to that area of the ground. Football atmospheres were created generations ago and in my youth, I wanted to be a part of continuing that excellence. Whatever atmosphere there is at home games is destroyed by a complete inability to sing a song how it was meant to be sung. Anyone that sings "Mark Hughes Barmy Army, We hate Vale" should be immediately ejected from the stadium, sent on an awareness course and have to prove that they've learned a valuable lesson before being allowed back into the ground. The same is true for the idiots who've started clapping, at inappropriate times, during "we'll be with you". If that makes me pompus, then so be it. Listen to the Delilah at Wembley in 1992. Watch the coverage of the league cup game away at Liverpool in 1991 which end 2-2 and listen to the away section singing. That is how you sing football songs. Watch, listen and learn!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 19:14:44 GMT
The very, very best footballing songs are anthemic and sung slowly. The best song we've had at the Brit for many a year was the 'Oh when the reds...' from a couple of years ago. It was insanely slow, went on for a good while, and was almost eerily beautiful. Absolutely awesome.
And no clapping, despite early attempts by some to ruin it.
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Post by Kjones9 on Dec 3, 2015 19:15:36 GMT
Yes it does, very much so.
So what you're saying is it WAS better in the olden days because the youth of today dare to sing songs too fast and clap a bit too often for your liking?
The OP was right then.
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Post by Skankmonkey on Dec 3, 2015 19:20:57 GMT
I love the pompous looking down your noses at block 19. If it wasn't for block 19 there would be very little sung in the first place. That is a very fair point but for me, they sum up the youth of today. They have little respect for history or tradition, make no attempt to understand it and embrace it and through sheer stupidity ride rough shod over it. At home games, Block 19 destroy many a good song. They ruin Delilah completely, they never sing in time with the rest of the ground if a song has started elsewhere and the inane clapping to absolutely everything is a trait almost exclusively to that area of the ground. Football atmospheres were created generations ago and in my youth, I wanted to be a part of continuing that excellence. Whatever atmosphere there is at home games is destroyed by a complete inability to sing a song how it was meant to be sung. Anyone that sings "Mark Hughes Barmy Army, We hate Vale" should be immediately ejected from the stadium, sent on an awareness course and have to prove that they've learned a valuable lesson before being allowed back into the ground. The same is true for the idiots who've started clapping, at inappropriate times, during "we'll be with you". If that makes me pompus, then so be it. Listen to the Delilah at Wembley in 1992. Watch the coverage of the league cup game away at Liverpool in 1991 which end 2-2 and listen to the away section singing. That is how you sing football songs. Watch, listen and learn! I'm with that too. I don't know about the blocks at fault, but the speeding up of the classics means they just can't be physically sustained and the incessant idiot clapping just increases the tempo till the song falls apart. We do need a bigger repertoire and "Barmy Army" is just wrong/cretinous.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 19:31:05 GMT
Deserters ? Fookin deserters ? Do you not know our club history ? If we were deserters we'd have lost interest in the early 80's, when away grounds were shocking and the football atrocious. When travelling to away games meant four hours stuck in the back of a transit van with a dozen other 'deserters', all to watch yet another dire performance and more often than not another defeat. Funny how we can stick by the club through those dark days then get labelled deserters for not being at every Prem game. Typical post from the 'modern era' supporter. Yeah, I can't think of any better reason to give up a ST than the guy next to me doesn't sing enough. I don't get why anyone would want to give up their ticket now and that's my opinion. If people don't like it then they shouldn't start threads about it. Interesting response to my post. You are indeed entitled to your opinion, nobody will dispute that, but you obviously didn't read the earlier post of mine or noted the name of the thread starter, which incidentally wasn't me. Had you have done you will have noticed that the points I made concerning my irregular attendance did not include 'giving up my ST because the guy next to me doesn't sing enough '. General atmosphere at games is irrelevant to me, and was never one of the points I disliked about premier league football. For me, the major contributing factor to lack of atmosphere has always been down to all seater stadia and the inability to by tickets together with mates.
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Post by foster on Dec 3, 2015 19:42:04 GMT
Yeah, I can't think of any better reason to give up a ST than the guy next to me doesn't sing enough. I don't get why anyone would want to give up their ticket now and that's my opinion. If people don't like it then they shouldn't start threads about it. Interesting response to my post. You are indeed entitled to your opinion, nobody will dispute that, but you obviously didn't read the earlier post of mine or noted the name of the thread starter, which incidentally wasn't me. Had you have done you will have noticed that the points I made concerning my irregular attendance did not include 'giving up my ST because the guy next to me doesn't sing enough '. General atmosphere at games is irrelevant to me, and was never one of the points I disliked about premier league football. For me, the major contributing factor to lack of atmosphere has always been down to all seater stadia and the inability to by tickets together with mates. I'm not writing about you otherwise I would have addressed you directly. I'm writing about the OP and the reasons he gave. I understand all the points about singing not being as good as it used to be and people obviously don't like it.... fair enough. Still, I find the reasons in the OP pretty poor at a time when we're trying to grow as a club and living the dream... as far as that applies to us. Move seats, find people to go with, etc. But don't give up your ticket.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 20:02:28 GMT
Interesting response to my post. You are indeed entitled to your opinion, nobody will dispute that, but you obviously didn't read the earlier post of mine or noted the name of the thread starter, which incidentally wasn't me. Had you have done you will have noticed that the points I made concerning my irregular attendance did not include 'giving up my ST because the guy next to me doesn't sing enough '. General atmosphere at games is irrelevant to me, and was never one of the points I disliked about premier league football. For me, the major contributing factor to lack of atmosphere has always been down to all seater stadia and the inability to by tickets together with mates. I'm not writing about you otherwise I would have addressed you directly. I'm writing about the OP and the reasons he gave. I understand all the points about singing not being as good as it used to be and people obviously don't like it.... fair enough. Still, I find the reasons in the OP pretty poor at a time when we're trying to grow as a club and living the dream... as far as that applies to us. Move seats, find people to go with, etc. But don't give up your ticket. By quoting my post you are addressing me directly which prompted my response. I guess there are two parties on this thread who won't see eye to eye and that's good and why the forum is here, it's all good banter. Don't get me wrong, I love to see Stoke battling with the big boys, certainly something I though I'd never see, and long may it continue but I guess for some of us the whole match day experience has changed from the one we fell in love with. For every one of us that misses a game there's someone to take our place, the club and fan base are growing, and that's wonderful, it's just a pity there aren't enough seats available for groups of mates... But that's another story !
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Post by towraytek on Dec 3, 2015 20:33:20 GMT
If that's the way the OP feels, fine, its up to him. I just don't feel the same. I started watching Stoke in 1964 in my early teens and the enthusiasm has never left me. I'm worse now than ever I was, elated when we win or get an away point, pissed off all day Sunday when we've lost. I might be an old fart but I sing, shout, eff, blind, and grab the nearest person for a mental when we score. Each to his/her own. I'm absolutely luvvin it.
Ek
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Post by pmjh on Dec 3, 2015 21:35:58 GMT
you may think it shouldn't but it obviously does,hence better atmospheres against the big teams. I do think your right about the searing arrangements though. I'd like to see the corner(s} filled in and used for unreserved seating so that groups could sit together.
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Post by foster on Dec 3, 2015 22:35:02 GMT
I'm not writing about you otherwise I would have addressed you directly. I'm writing about the OP and the reasons he gave. I understand all the points about singing not being as good as it used to be and people obviously don't like it.... fair enough. Still, I find the reasons in the OP pretty poor at a time when we're trying to grow as a club and living the dream... as far as that applies to us. Move seats, find people to go with, etc. But don't give up your ticket. By quoting my post you are addressing me directly which prompted my response. I guess there are two parties on this thread who won't see eye to eye and that's good and why the forum is here, it's all good banter. Don't get me wrong, I love to see Stoke battling with the big boys, certainly something I though I'd never see, and long may it continue but I guess for some of us the whole match day experience has changed from the one we fell in love with. For every one of us that misses a game there's someone to take our place, the club and fan base are growing, and that's wonderful, it's just a pity there aren't enough seats available for groups of mates... But that's another story ! Fair enough mate. To be honest I was typing on my phone and wanted to quote the op but didn't want to go back to check who it was. My post likely came across a bit strong because I had to keep it short and blunt. Anyway, my impression is that if it was so bad in the past then surely now is better if your primary concern is the football we play and the results we're getting. Whats effectively best for the club. No doubt Scholes will get wind of this thread and use it as an excuse not to expand the stadium.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Dec 4, 2015 8:53:26 GMT
Lots of interesting comments about the singing on here. It's just a personal preference but 'Oh when the reds' is a song that makes me cringe because I just don't think it relates to Stoke in terms of our colours (which are as much white as red)and it sounds even more baffling when we are playing Manchester United, Liverpool, Bristol City, Barnsley etc etc etc (who can all claim to be 'the reds'). The song is obviously a derivative of 'Oh when the Saints' which is sung regularly at Southampton for obvious reasons. They have mostly played in the same strip as us over the years but I have to wonder if it would ever have been sung as 'Oh when the REDS' at Southampton had they not been known as The Saints. I have seen us play Sunderland, Arsenal, Shefield United, Brentford, Exeter and probably more that I can't think of right now on countless occasions and honestly can't remember any of them chanting 'Oh when the reds'. Similarly, I've never heard West Brom, Shefield Wednesday, Huddersfield, QPR, Reading etc etc chanting 'Oh when the BLUES' and I'd just love Newcastle and Notts County's version..........'Oh when the BLACKS'. As I said earlier, my main 'problem' with the song (apart from it being inappropriate for Stoke) is that it seems to have become our ONE AND ONLY real chant nowadays which is why I called it a 'token gesture'. Hey, it's all opinions and at least those singing 'Oh when the reds' create what atmosphere there is just now so maybe I shouldn't complain. Anyone who was at West Ham some years ago (I was) when Alan Ball was in charge will vividly recall the prolonged chanting of 'Alan Ball's red and white army' that literally continued for half an hour non-stop. It was magnificent and I spoke to Bally some weeks later when we got back from a rain-sodden 1-0 win at Middlesbrough (despite Kammy getting himself sent off). He said it was the best support he could ever remember. Also, the noise we made during Macari's years was phoenominal.
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