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Post by partickpotter on Nov 25, 2015 22:30:19 GMT
I'm struggling with your point - forget politicians not telling the truth. They all tell porkies. The point is the deficit is coming down - which is what he said he would do. But while it still exists, the debt increases. And that deficit is a legacy of Labour's last fiscally disastrous administration. What would you do with the debt and deficit. There is not one shred of evidence that the last Labour administration were irresponsible. It's part of the lie that the Tories spread along with them being the best party to manage the economy. I repeat Osborne has failed to meet the targets he set himself. If you have an open mind you might want to read this, which among other publications suggests a very viable alternative to austerity. falseeconomy.org.uk/cure/whats-the-best-way-to-reduce-the-deficitThe last Labour Party left a colossal deficit that despite being reduced continues to add to our national debt. You do understand that debt is effectively cumulative deficit don't you. That is simply why today's debt mountain goes right back to Labour. The article you linked to is interesting - it's also fairly basic. Cutting the deficit can be done in two ways - cut public spending and increase tax revenue by growing the economy. Sort of what the Tories are doing or trying to do in both cases. I haven't seen much evidence of Labour doing much in either area - they don't want to cut and they don't seem to have any policies to encourage economic growth (you might remember that criticism of Milliband's General Election campaign - which was subsequently acknowledged, and is still to be developed).
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 25, 2015 22:37:36 GMT
I don't think it was the campaigners you highlighted made much impact. The Tories never listen to them. What did it, IMO, was that Tory woman on Question Time a few weeks ago. One of their own turning her back on them. That got the Tory back benchers antsy which is what forced Osbourne's hand. They wouldn't have pulled their own law, they already rejected several amendments, one very much along the lines that Osborne has announced today and these increased tax revenues haven't magically appeared just in the last month. If it wasn't for the Lords this would have been on the statute book now. I concede (like Cameron's idiotic and shameful letter to the leader of his council) means that a lot of the time they are so committed to their ideology of austerity and turning poor on poor, they are so out of touch that they don't know the damage a host of their policies cause to the worst off in the country but mainly they just don't fucking care. I think they knew Osbourne had dug himself a hole - and were happy (and maybe even engineered) that Lords' defeat. He needed a get out of jail card. Remember - the Tories are motivated by one thing - power. Whatever it takes to get it, and keep it, they will do. If they thought, and I think they did, Osbourne's tax credits would lose them Tory votes they'd change. Well - that's what I think. It's not about fairness or anything honourable. It's about doing what they think needs to be done to keep themselves in power.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 25, 2015 22:37:47 GMT
Lets look at some Tory promises since 2010.
Promises- Eradicate the deficit by 2015. Result - Reduced it by 40% Conclusion - Massive Fail
Promises- Cut net migration in the tens of thousands. Result - Increase of 54000 Conclusion - Liars. They knew it was unachievable
Promises- We will not increase VAT Result - VAT goes up from 17.5% to 20% Conclusion - Liars.
Throw in a bit of seven day surgeries, less access to them than the more promised. Smaller class sizes - Leading to dramatically increased class sizes and it seems by any measure this Government is pretty fucking appalling.
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Post by bogeyman on Nov 25, 2015 22:41:08 GMT
There is not one shred of evidence that the last Labour administration were irresponsible. It's part of the lie that the Tories spread along with them being the best party to manage the economy. I repeat Osborne has failed to meet the targets he set himself. If you have an open mind you might want to read this, which among other publications suggests a very viable alternative to austerity. falseeconomy.org.uk/cure/whats-the-best-way-to-reduce-the-deficitThe last Labour Party left a colossal deficit that despite being reduced continues to add to our national debt. You do understand that debt is effectively cumulative deficit don't you. That is simply why today's debt mountain goes right back to Labour. The article you linked to is interesting - it's also fairly basic. Cutting the deficit can be done in two ways - cut public pending and increase tax revenue by growing the economy. Sort of what the Tories are doing or trying to do in both cases. I haven't seen much evidence of Labour doing much in either area - they don't want yo cut and they don't seem to have any policies to encourage economic growth (you might remember that criticism of Milliband's General Election campaign - which was subsequently acknowledged, and is still to be developed). Taxing non domicile companies and filthy rich tax exiles would also help along with forcing fat idle arse career slobs to get a job might also help but sadly politics is too polarised on here as it is in life . Never the twain shall meet .
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Post by starkiller on Nov 25, 2015 22:45:06 GMT
Ahhh so it's Labour's fault he's fcuked up? Gotcha He's fucked what up? He's cutting the deficit as he said he would aim to, do you actually understand the link between the deficit and debt ? I actually couldn't give a flying fuck about either of them. The words about them are empty from the architects of austerity when they allow billions upon billions of unpaid tax from their Corporation friends and hide their money in offshore accounts.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 25, 2015 23:13:13 GMT
There is not one shred of evidence that the last Labour administration were irresponsible. It's part of the lie that the Tories spread along with them being the best party to manage the economy. I repeat Osborne has failed to meet the targets he set himself. If you have an open mind you might want to read this, which among other publications suggests a very viable alternative to austerity. falseeconomy.org.uk/cure/whats-the-best-way-to-reduce-the-deficitThe last Labour Party left a colossal deficit that despite being reduced continues to add to our national debt. You do understand that debt is effectively cumulative deficit don't you. That is simply why today's debt mountain goes right back to Labour. The article you linked to is interesting - it's also fairly basic. Cutting the deficit can be done in two ways - cut public spending and increase tax revenue by growing the economy. Sort of what the Tories are doing or trying to do in both cases. I haven't seen much evidence of Labour doing much in either area - they don't want to cut and they don't seem to have any policies to encourage economic growth (you might remember that criticism of Milliband's General Election campaign - which was subsequently acknowledged, and is still to be developed). The deficit left by labour was almost totally due to the financial crisis. The economy was recovering, choked off by Osborne's austerity policies almost immediately. Osborne's approach may well work but at a massive cost. It's essentially ideological rather than practical. www.alastaircampbell.org/blog/2013/08/19/the-mess-we-inherited-some-facts-with-which-to-fight-the-tory-big-lies/If you took the time to read Corbyn and McDonnells policies you might see that there is another way. Certainly attacking the most vulnerable while handing the Queen a pay rise doesn't sit well with me.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 25, 2015 23:46:26 GMT
The last Labour Party left a colossal deficit that despite being reduced continues to add to our national debt. You do understand that debt is effectively cumulative deficit don't you. That is simply why today's debt mountain goes right back to Labour. The article you linked to is interesting - it's also fairly basic. Cutting the deficit can be done in two ways - cut public spending and increase tax revenue by growing the economy. Sort of what the Tories are doing or trying to do in both cases. I haven't seen much evidence of Labour doing much in either area - they don't want to cut and they don't seem to have any policies to encourage economic growth (you might remember that criticism of Milliband's General Election campaign - which was subsequently acknowledged, and is still to be developed). The deficit left by labour was almost totally due to the financial crisis. The economy was recovering, choked off by Osborne's austerity policies almost immediately. Osborne's approach may well work but at a massive cost. It's essentially ideological rather than practical. www.alastaircampbell.org/blog/2013/08/19/the-mess-we-inherited-some-facts-with-which-to-fight-the-tory-big-lies/If you took the time to read Corbyn and McDonnells policies you might see that there is another way. Certainly attacking the most vulnerable while handing the Queen a pay rise doesn't sit well with me. Chairman's Mao's little Red book what a complete prick, another way , oh dear bye Labour as predicted Corbyn and comrades taking them into oblivion.
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Post by salopstick on Nov 25, 2015 23:50:01 GMT
The last Labour Party left a colossal deficit that despite being reduced continues to add to our national debt. You do understand that debt is effectively cumulative deficit don't you. That is simply why today's debt mountain goes right back to Labour. The article you linked to is interesting - it's also fairly basic. Cutting the deficit can be done in two ways - cut public spending and increase tax revenue by growing the economy. Sort of what the Tories are doing or trying to do in both cases. I haven't seen much evidence of Labour doing much in either area - they don't want to cut and they don't seem to have any policies to encourage economic growth (you might remember that criticism of Milliband's General Election campaign - which was subsequently acknowledged, and is still to be developed). The deficit left by labour was almost totally due to the financial crisis. The economy was recovering, choked off by Osborne's austerity policies almost immediately. Osborne's approach may well work but at a massive cost. It's essentially ideological rather than practical. www.alastaircampbell.org/blog/2013/08/19/the-mess-we-inherited-some-facts-with-which-to-fight-the-tory-big-lies/If you took the time to read Corbyn and McDonnells policies you might see that there is another way. Certainly attacking the most vulnerable while handing the Queen a pay rise doesn't sit well with me. Pay rise is the wrong term though. She is entitled to 15% profit from the crown estates when they abolished the civil list If the crown estates do well, the tax revenues go up so the country gets more and as a result she gets more money. It's in our interests for the HM revenues 85% to be as much as possible.
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Post by bogeyman on Nov 26, 2015 0:14:34 GMT
I often wonder if people's politics is influenced by their own insecurity or ineptitude . There seems to be a lot of effeminacy and antagonism intertwined behind political agenda.
Very strange behaviour .
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 26, 2015 7:22:33 GMT
The last Labour Party left a colossal deficit that despite being reduced continues to add to our national debt. You do understand that debt is effectively cumulative deficit don't you. That is simply why today's debt mountain goes right back to Labour. The article you linked to is interesting - it's also fairly basic. Cutting the deficit can be done in two ways - cut public spending and increase tax revenue by growing the economy. Sort of what the Tories are doing or trying to do in both cases. I haven't seen much evidence of Labour doing much in either area - they don't want to cut and they don't seem to have any policies to encourage economic growth (you might remember that criticism of Milliband's General Election campaign - which was subsequently acknowledged, and is still to be developed). The deficit left by labour was almost totally due to the financial crisis. The economy was recovering, choked off by Osborne's austerity policies almost immediately. Osborne's approach may well work but at a massive cost. It's essentially ideological rather than practical. www.alastaircampbell.org/blog/2013/08/19/the-mess-we-inherited-some-facts-with-which-to-fight-the-tory-big-lies/If you took the time to read Corbyn and McDonnells policies you might see that there is another way. Certainly attacking the most vulnerable while handing the Queen a pay rise doesn't sit well with me. Got to say that is pretty unconvincing spin from the King of Spin! Of course the global financial crisis was a massive factor in the economy - it devastated growth. But, and it's a big but, Labour's spending policy - to increase it massively - under Brown as Chancellor and as Primeminister, made a bad situation calamitous. Here's something for you to look at, Did Labour Spend Too Much in Government. OK it's from the Torygraph, so hold your nose while reading it, but it's numerical analysis is both balanced and convincing. As to Corbyn and McDonnell's policies on wealth creation I honestly can't find any. Maybe you could share some - that are economically literate that is. Remember taxation isn't wealth creation it's wealth distribution. And nationalisation isn't a wealth creation strategy either.
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 26, 2015 8:11:10 GMT
He's fucked what up? He's cutting the deficit as he said he would aim to, do you actually understand the link between the deficit and debt ? He's missed every single target he set himself. True or false? Well as you are hinting at it that pretty much guarantees it's false. Broadly the deficit arises from the difference between revenue and spending, apart from tinkering around with tax laws and rates the government can't really control the revenue as that is down to how the general economy performs. What the government can and should control is its level of spending, Labour ran a massive deficit not to invest in services but just on day to day activities, if they were a football club they would be Leeds.
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 26, 2015 8:15:34 GMT
He's fucked what up? He's cutting the deficit as he said he would aim to, do you actually understand the link between the deficit and debt ? I don't think he has a clue. Economics has never been a strength of the left. In the same way, compassion and empathy seem alien to the Tories. I'm not sure it's about compassion and empathy if the correct decisions aren't made now much harsher ones have to be made at a later point in time just as with pensions and retirement ages, tax credits is one that needs to be controlled just as taxing well off pensioners should also be but no one will go near it as it's political suicide.
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Post by manmarking on Nov 26, 2015 11:13:02 GMT
I often wonder if people's politics is influenced by their own insecurity or ineptitude . There seems to be a lot of effeminacy and antagonism intertwined behind political agenda. Very strange behaviour . Looks like that bosted helicopter guy on the other thread was right. Welcome back mumf. Good of you to bring effeminacy into proceedings, I did worry that the debate was looking a bit civilised, rational, fact-based, that sort of thing Enjoyable ragequit? Get much done?
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Post by Rick Grimes on Nov 26, 2015 13:01:00 GMT
As I understand it Osborne has done the u-turns because the Office for Budget Responsibility told him that public finances have improved since July by £27bn, spread over 5 years, because it is forecasted that there will be healthy growth and the economy will expand at a rate of roughly 2.4% every year up until 2020. So bascially Osborne has performed his u-turns based on assumptions, lets hope the forecasts are accurate.
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Post by salopstick on Nov 26, 2015 13:05:39 GMT
As I understand it Osborne has done the u-turns because the Office for Budget Responsibility told him that public finances have improved since July by £27bn, spread over 5 years, because it is forecasted that there will be healthy growth and the economy will expand at a rate of roughly 2.4% every year up until 2020. So bascially Osborne has performed his u-turns based on assumptions, lets hope the forecasts are accurate. An easy dig All of politics is done on assumptions, planning, research because you can never tell 100% the future
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Post by manmarking on Nov 26, 2015 13:16:47 GMT
As I understand it Osborne has done the u-turns because the Office for Budget Responsibility told him that public finances have improved since July by £27bn, spread over 5 years, because it is forecasted that there will be healthy growth and the economy will expand at a rate of roughly 2.4% every year up until 2020. So bascially Osborne has performed his u-turns based on assumptions, lets hope the forecasts are accurate. An easy dig All of politics is done on assumptions, planning, research because you can never tell 100% the future It isn't a dig as I read it - simply an observation mate. You're correct that politics is based on assumptions, planning and research, which is why it's so important to fix the roof while the sun is shining and not simply spend any windfall that comes your way. That's what he was so critical of New Labour for. If Osborne truly believes that the deficit is so important - as he says - then why is he not using the windfall to stick to his principles and pay it down? Answer: because he has no principles. He'll say and do whatever it takes to grip grimly to power. He's a cynical opportunist like all the New Labour goons that went before him, and he's doing EXACTLY the same thing he castigated them for.
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 26, 2015 13:58:52 GMT
An easy dig All of politics is done on assumptions, planning, research because you can never tell 100% the future It isn't a dig as I read it - simply an observation mate. You're correct that politics is based on assumptions, planning and research, which is why it's so important to fix the roof while the sun is shining and not simply spend any windfall that comes your way. That's what he was so critical of New Labour for. If Osborne truly believes that the deficit is so important - as he says - then why is he not using the windfall to stick to his principles and pay it down? Answer: because he has no principles. He'll say and do whatever it takes to grip grimly to power. He's a cynical opportunist like all the New Labour goons that went before him, and he's doing EXACTLY the same thing he castigated them for. Thanks to Jezza and Johnno and their Apocalypse Mao moment. I don't think there will be much grim gripping to power going on in 2020, when even Russel Brands bestie Mr Ed says to a group of MP's that ‘I bet you didn't think things would get worse’ you know it's getting towards the end game for Corbyn.
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Post by manmarking on Nov 26, 2015 14:17:14 GMT
It isn't a dig as I read it - simply an observation mate. You're correct that politics is based on assumptions, planning and research, which is why it's so important to fix the roof while the sun is shining and not simply spend any windfall that comes your way. That's what he was so critical of New Labour for. If Osborne truly believes that the deficit is so important - as he says - then why is he not using the windfall to stick to his principles and pay it down? Answer: because he has no principles. He'll say and do whatever it takes to grip grimly to power. He's a cynical opportunist like all the New Labour goons that went before him, and he's doing EXACTLY the same thing he castigated them for. Thanks to Jezza and Johnno and their Apocalypse Mao moment. I don't think there will be much grim gripping to power going on in 2020, when even Russel Brands bestie Mr Ed says to a group of MP's that ‘I bet you didn't think things would get worse’ you know it's getting towards the end game for Corbyn. I'm inclined to agree with that assessment as things currently stand mate yes. Although I would add the caveat that a day, let alone a week, is a long time in politics, and fortunes can change quickly. In order for that to happen though, Corbyn and his team urgently need to learn that adopting some very basic media management and PR rules doesn't necessarily require any compromise to their core principles.
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 26, 2015 14:27:02 GMT
Thanks to Jezza and Johnno and their Apocalypse Mao moment. I don't think there will be much grim gripping to power going on in 2020, when even Russel Brands bestie Mr Ed says to a group of MP's that ‘I bet you didn't think things would get worse’ you know it's getting towards the end game for Corbyn. I'm inclined to agree with that assessment as things currently stand mate yes. Although I would add the caveat that a day, let alone a week, is a long time in politics, and fortunes can change quickly. In order for that to happen though, Corbyn and his team urgently need to learn that adopting some very basic media management and PR rules doesn't necessarily require any compromise to their core principles. Another 7 days could prove to be even longer if the 14,000 Labour majority is overturned in Oldham see how the Labour MP's with smaller majorities that that react then.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 26, 2015 14:31:47 GMT
As I understand it Osborne has done the u-turns because the Office for Budget Responsibility told him that public finances have improved since July by £27bn, spread over 5 years, because it is forecasted that there will be healthy growth and the economy will expand at a rate of roughly 2.4% every year up until 2020. So bascially Osborne has performed his u-turns based on assumptions, lets hope the forecasts are accurate. An easy dig All of politics is done on assumptions, planning, research because you can never tell 100% the future Or in the case of the Labour party under Corbyn based on the teachings of Chairman Mao, fuckin dinosaur bet all who voted for him are very proud of their decision, we needed strong opposition to the Tory's we ended up with the fuckin Marx brothers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 14:41:30 GMT
An easy dig All of politics is done on assumptions, planning, research because you can never tell 100% the future Or in the case of the Labour party under Corbyn based on the teachings of Chairman Mao, fuckin dinosaur bet all who voted for him are very proud of their decision, we needed strong opposition to the Tory's we ended up with the fuckin Marx brothers. Not like you to confuse comedy and politics.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 26, 2015 14:49:16 GMT
Or in the case of the Labour party under Corbyn based on the teachings of Chairman Mao, fuckin dinosaur bet all who voted for him are very proud of their decision, we needed strong opposition to the Tory's we ended up with the fuckin Marx brothers. Not like you to confuse comedy and politics. I never found the Marx brothers particularly funny, Corbyn and his comrade however
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Post by manmarking on Nov 26, 2015 14:51:15 GMT
An easy dig All of politics is done on assumptions, planning, research because you can never tell 100% the future Or in the case of the Labour party under Corbyn based on the teachings of Chairman Mao, fuckin dinosaur bet all who voted for him are very proud of their decision, we needed strong opposition to the Tory's we ended up with the fuckin Marx brothers. What this board really needs is a strong opposition inside your brain, carps
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 14:54:32 GMT
The real star of the show was Bercow. The tragedy is that Sally has retired from Twitter
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Post by Rick Grimes on Nov 26, 2015 15:42:47 GMT
As I understand it Osborne has done the u-turns because the Office for Budget Responsibility told him that public finances have improved since July by £27bn, spread over 5 years, because it is forecasted that there will be healthy growth and the economy will expand at a rate of roughly 2.4% every year up until 2020. So bascially Osborne has performed his u-turns based on assumptions, lets hope the forecasts are accurate. An easy dig All of politics is done on assumptions, planning, research because you can never tell 100% the future It wasn't really a dig however the OBR's record when it comes to making predictions isn't that great. Just out of curiosity if it was a Labour chancellor making the same calls would your opinion still be the same?
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Post by salopstick on Nov 26, 2015 15:57:37 GMT
An easy dig All of politics is done on assumptions, planning, research because you can never tell 100% the future It wasn't really a dig however the OBR's record when it comes to making predictions isn't that great. Just out of curiosity if it was a Labour chancellor making the same calls would your opinion still be the same? It depends on the circumstances. I don't slate a politician for their party I wait until I see what they do. For the record too many people get benefits they don't need and some don't get enough. One day a chancellor will take the state pension off the wealthy. Unpopular but a needed policy. That could find extra pension for those that need it I can't see a lot wrong in the autumn statement. Even though some would cut further. It did show up the opponents of the government who had been slagging him for stuff he didn't do. I'm sure police funding wasn't cut despite the memes I've been reading
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 26, 2015 19:24:51 GMT
Lets look at some Tory promises since 2010. Promises- Eradicate the deficit by 2015. Result - Reduced it by 40% Conclusion - Massive Fail Promises- Cut net migration in the tens of thousands. Result - Increase of 54000 Conclusion - Liars. They knew it was unachievable Promises- We will not increase VAT Result - VAT goes up from 17.5% to 20% Conclusion - Liars. Throw in a bit of seven day surgeries, less access to them than the more promised. Smaller class sizes - Leading to dramatically increased class sizes and it seems by any measure this Government is pretty fucking appalling. Osborne has missed every target he set. But apparently not according to his fans on here. Bizarre.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 26, 2015 19:26:05 GMT
An easy dig All of politics is done on assumptions, planning, research because you can never tell 100% the future Or in the case of the Labour party under Corbyn based on the teachings of Chairman Mao, fuckin dinosaur bet all who voted for him are very proud of their decision, we needed strong opposition to the Tory's we ended up with the fuckin Marx brothers. You really don't have a clue do you?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 26, 2015 19:31:37 GMT
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Post by salopstick on Nov 26, 2015 20:11:03 GMT
you really are scraping the barrel now. Not one but two links from the Mirror The left really need to concentrate on their own affairs. Corbyn facing a revolt again
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