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Post by ukcstokie on May 3, 2015 20:39:32 GMT
We need something special here. 76 needed with 6 wickets in hand. Time to give it to Anderson and tell him to go for broke? It's rapidly approaching that point I think mate I'm getting a bit concerned here. We really need one of our senior players to win this.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 3, 2015 21:21:39 GMT
Think it's got away from us boys.
Graves promised an inquest if this series was not won, hope he's as good as his word.
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Post by ukcstokie on May 3, 2015 21:34:39 GMT
Think it's got away from us boys. Graves promised an inquest if this series was not won, hope he's as good as his word. ...for a start show a bit of balls in your team selection.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 21:37:53 GMT
Well that's extremely disappointing .......Well played West Indies
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 3, 2015 21:38:51 GMT
Got to credit a very young Windies team, did exceptionally well to come into the game from being bowled out so cheaply in the first innings. I think we made a deck that offered a little assistance look like a complete minefield and have paid the penalty for it. On the bright side the last time we toured the Windies before an Ashes series we didn't win and then went on to win the Ashes, or am I clutching at straws?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 21:50:52 GMT
Got to credit a very young Windies team, did exceptionally well to come into the game from being bowled out so cheaply in the first innings. I think we made a deck that offered a little assistance look like a complete minefield and have paid the penalty for it. On the bright side the last time we toured the Windies before an Ashes series we didn't win and then went on to win the Ashes, or am I clutching at straws? Possibly a little .......that was a poor result today, not the end of the world though if they learn from some ordinary team selection that's been made .
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 21:51:13 GMT
Firstly great test to watch and again proves why for me it is the best sport in the world. Really pleased for the West Indies, a strong West Indian test team is great for the game, and they have the makings of a good young team there with Brathwaite, Blackwood, Holder and Gabriel all looking good as well as the likes of Bravo and Taylor.
Now for England.....great that Cook seems to be getting back to somewhere near his best, hopefully he has a long career as a test opener for us ahead of him. But his team selection (along with Moores) and captaincy are awful. Conservative (with a small c) beyond belief, almost arrogant in their team selections by disregarding the pitch and picking their tried and tested XI (to not play Rashid was an absolute travesty)
Trott has gone, great player and thanks for the memories but his technique is all over the show. Bell was superb in the 1st innings of the 1st test and has been absolutely awful since then. I like both Stokes and Jordan but as back up seamers they just haven't cut the mustard. Stokes is quick but wayward, Jordan is accurate but toothless, either way unless we can find a decent 3rd seamer we're struggling. Ali and Root have had their moments but they're clearly not frontline spinners, looking in county cricket where are the decent finger spinners coming through?
If it were me I'd get shot of Moores, second bite of the cherry and still doesn't impress me at all as an International coach. Cook would benefit from concentrating on his batting and stepping down but I don't see a candidate waiting in the wings (please don't saddle young Root with it).
Real tough summer ahead, never mind The Ashes I fear that a resurgent New Zealand will give us a real test before then. The side has signs of promise but typical England one step forward and two steps back as usual..........
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 21:53:01 GMT
Got to credit a very young Windies team, did exceptionally well to come into the game from being bowled out so cheaply in the first innings. I think we made a deck that offered a little assistance look like a complete minefield and have paid the penalty for it. On the bright side the last time we toured the Windies before an Ashes series we didn't win and then went on to win the Ashes, or am I clutching at straws? Possibly a little .......that was a poor result today, not the end of the world though if they learn from some ordinary team selection that's been made . Therein lies the problem, the arrogance of the selectors at times is appaling. I'm hoping Graves will change the whole mentality of the ECB hierarchy to be honest....
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 3, 2015 22:01:18 GMT
Got to credit a very young Windies team, did exceptionally well to come into the game from being bowled out so cheaply in the first innings. I think we made a deck that offered a little assistance look like a complete minefield and have paid the penalty for it. On the bright side the last time we toured the Windies before an Ashes series we didn't win and then went on to win the Ashes, or am I clutching at straws? Possibly a little .......that was a poor result today, not the end of the world though if they learn from some ordinary team selection that's been made . Agreed, the lack of a spinner really cost us today, Rashid would have loved that track. As for Trotty......we all know we're not going to see him in an England shirt again and it's a shame that people will tend to remember this broken Trott as opposed to the guy who was our rock for our most successful period.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 22:04:51 GMT
Possibly a little .......that was a poor result today, not the end of the world though if they learn from some ordinary team selection that's been made . Agreed, the lack of a spinner really cost us today, Rashid would have loved that track. As for Trotty......we all know we're not going to see him in an England shirt again and it's a shame that people will tend to remember this broken Trott as opposed to the guy who was our rock for our most successful period. Ironic that Cook and Moores clearly didn't pick Rashid as they feared he'd be too expensive, yet arguably it was Root and Ali's abysmal and expensive 1st innings bowling that cost us the game when we should have bowled the West Indies out for 120. It's what happens when you lack courage, and it's why we'll never progress under Moores as far as I'm concerned........
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 22:10:24 GMT
Possibly a little .......that was a poor result today, not the end of the world though if they learn from some ordinary team selection that's been made . Therein lies the problem, the arrogance of the selectors at times is appaling. I'm hoping Graves will change the whole mentality of the ECB hierarchy to be honest.... I understand your reasoning , clearly change is required but I am not sure Graves has the requisite amount of Cricketing experience and understanding of the game to implement that change , he brings his management expierience from outside the game , he did a good job at Yokshire , but the remarks he made about The future of Test cricket make you doubt his pedigree , certainly his remarks about the West Indies team were pretty appalling .
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 22:12:44 GMT
Possibly a little .......that was a poor result today, not the end of the world though if they learn from some ordinary team selection that's been made . Agreed, the lack of a spinner really cost us today, Rashid would have loved that track. As for Trotty......we all know we're not going to see him in an England shirt again and it's a shame that people will tend to remember this broken Trott as opposed to the guy who was our rock for our most successful period. Yes my thoughts exactly concerning Trott ....a sad way for him to end his career
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 22:14:03 GMT
Therein lies the problem, the arrogance of the selectors at times is appaling. I'm hoping Graves will change the whole mentality of the ECB hierarchy to be honest.... I understand your reasoning , clearly change is required but I am not sure Graves has the requisite amount of Cricketing experience and understanding of the game to implement that change , he brings his management expierience from outside the game , he did a good job at Yokshire , but the remarks he made about The future of Test cricket make you doubt his pedigree , certainly his remarks about the West Indies team were pretty appalling . They were ill informed remarks definitely. I think his aim was to challenge the England team to improve as they've been under performing but it's backfired. I think his flirtation with KP was done for exactly the same reason, again don't think it was particularly clever.
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Post by Squeekster on May 3, 2015 22:40:50 GMT
We batted on what we thought might happen and failed, they played the pitch simple as!
The worrying thing is this is a bang average team with one or two of their best players in the IPL so god knows how we'll fare in the summer.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 22:50:11 GMT
We batted on what we thought might happen and failed, they played the pitch simple as! The worrying thing is this is a bang average team with one or two of their best players in the IPL so god knows how we'll fare in the summer. I disagree about the West Indies team .....they are not the average team that they have been in recent years , they are showing definite signs of improvement , Holder is without a doubt going to be a top class cricketer and Blackwood shows a lot of promise , Jerome Taylor has bowled exceptionally well in the two games that he played , Gabriel has also bowled well and showed a bit of pace .
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Post by Olgrligm on May 3, 2015 23:36:23 GMT
Two part time spinners in a test team isn't good enough. Ali had a good series against India, but ultimately he's a batsman who bowls a bit, just like root. We need a proper spin bowler. Jordan and Stokes are very similar bowlers and alright batsmen capable of a decent innings - it has to be one or the other, but not both. Trott has had his time and should never have been brought back to open the batting, I don't know who thought that up.
The West Indies deserve plenty of credit for their performance, though.
Test cricket is terrific, far superior to the one day stuff.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 23:59:29 GMT
Two part time spinners in a test team isn't good enough. Ali had a good series against India, but ultimately he's a batsman who bowls a bit, just like root. We need a proper spin bowler. Jordan and Stokes are very similar bowlers and alright batsmen capable of a decent innings - it has to be one or the other, but not both. Trott has had his time and should never have been brought back to open the batting, I don't know who thought that up. The West Indies deserve plenty of credit for their performance, though. Test cricket is terrific, far superior to the one day stuff. Who would the proper spinner be ? From what I can see it could only be Monty , still a world class spinner with 160 test wickets to his name ....but for reasons other than cricketing ones , they prefer not to select him ?
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Post by ukcstokie on May 4, 2015 0:20:24 GMT
Two part time spinners in a test team isn't good enough. Ali had a good series against India, but ultimately he's a batsman who bowls a bit, just like root. We need a proper spin bowler. Jordan and Stokes are very similar bowlers and alright batsmen capable of a decent innings - it has to be one or the other, but not both. Trott has had his time and should never have been brought back to open the batting, I don't know who thought that up. The West Indies deserve plenty of credit for their performance, though. Test cricket is terrific, far superior to the one day stuff. Who would the proper spinner be ? From what I can see it could only be Monty , still a world class spinner with 160 test wickets to his name ....but for reasons other than cricketing ones , they prefer not to select him ? Don't think Monty can get in the Essex first team at the moment? He looks to be a shadow of his former self - but if we can get him back to his best then he walks into that side.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 0:25:21 GMT
Who would the proper spinner be ? From what I can see it could only be Monty , still a world class spinner with 160 test wickets to his name ....but for reasons other than cricketing ones , they prefer not to select him ? Don't think Monty can get in the Essex first team at the moment? He looks to be a shadow of his former self - but if we can get him back to his best then he walks into that side. Yes mate I think you are correct ...I know he has issues other than cricketing ones , as you say some one needs to put an arm around him and tell him he's loved .....we need a spinner who is good enough , he's the only one who cuts it for me .
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Post by ukcstokie on May 4, 2015 0:42:18 GMT
Don't think Monty can get in the Essex first team at the moment? He looks to be a shadow of his former self - but if we can get him back to his best then he walks into that side. Yes mate I think you are correct ...I know he has issues other than cricketing ones , as you say some one needs to put an arm around him and tell him he's loved .....we need a spinner who is good enough , he's the only one who cuts it for me .
On TMS the other day they were saying that we haven't really done too badly for spin - we've just been unlucky - Swann retires through injury and Monty has 'issues'. Very few sides have more than two test quality spinners on the go at a time.
Let's hope with a bit of support Monty can get back to his best - he has the incentive as there must be a place there for him.
I don't think we can rule out Moeen just yet. He hasn't cut it - but let's not loose site that it's his first tour, which he was parachuted into after injury, no local acclimatisation, and only a single match in the UK I believe since the WC. That would have been a massive ask even for an established and experienced spinner.
Also, what about Kerrigan? Had a very poor debut against the Aussies - but now older and still highly rated at Lancashire?
The other thing they need to consider about this tour is the abject preparation the team had at the start. Two two day games against a side so poor that we had to loan them some of the squad to get a game. It was the poorest preparation I can remember for a test series - we really didn't give the Windies any respect at all - and paid for it.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 4, 2015 0:43:11 GMT
Moores has to go.
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Post by ukcstokie on May 4, 2015 0:55:07 GMT
He should have about as much chance at keeping his job as Carver has to be the manager Newcastle next season (or anyone for that matter).
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 1:51:45 GMT
Yes mate I think you are correct ...I know he has issues other than cricketing ones , as you say some one needs to put an arm around him and tell him he's loved .....we need a spinner who is good enough , he's the only one who cuts it for me .
On TMS the other day they were saying that we haven't really done too badly for spin - we've just been unlucky - Swann retires through injury and Monty has 'issues'. Very few sides have more than two test quality spinners on the go at a time.
Let's hope with a bit of support Monty can get back to his best - he has the incentive as there must be a place there for him.
I don't think we can rule out Moeen just yet. He hasn't cut it - but let's not loose site that it's his first tour, which he was parachuted into after injury, no local acclimatisation, and only a single match in the UK I believe since the WC. That would have been a massive ask even for an established and experienced spinner.
Also, what about Kerrigan? Had a very poor debut against the Aussies - but now older and still highly rated at Lancashire?
The other thing they need to consider about this tour is the abject preparation the team had at the start. Two two day games against a side so poor that we had to loan them some of the squad to get a game. It was the poorest preparation I can remember for a test series - we really didn't give the Windies any respect at all - and paid for it. Moeen is a good cricketer ..but I have never rated him as a test player ...I know you are a Moeen fan and so I won't criticise him overly !...Kerrigan was an odd selection ....he plays club cricket at Fulwood and Brouhgton ...my lad has played against him on a regular basis and thinks he is a poor bowler ....opinions !
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Post by partickpotter on May 4, 2015 7:03:43 GMT
We batted on what we thought might happen and failed, they played the pitch simple as! The worrying thing is this is a bang average team with one or two of their best players in the IPL so god knows how we'll fare in the summer. I disagree about the West Indies team .....they are not the average team that they have been in recent years , they are showing definite signs of improvement , Holder is without a doubt going to be a top class cricketer and Blackwood shows a lot of promise , Jerome Taylor has bowled exceptionally well in the two games that he played , Gabriel has also bowled well and showed a bit of pace . Agree - the Windies were a lot better than they've been given credit for. Including you Mr "big mouth from Yorkshire" Graves. England's shortcomings were mainly about selection - as we've discussed several times through this thread we seem to have been picking sides in this series with preparation for the Ashes a bigger priority than beating the Windies. Meaning, we chose to give game time to what the selectors had decided is their preferred starting 11 against Australia later in the summer. It hasn't worked. We've ignored two basic selection principles; pick a player who can do the job to do the job ie an opening bat to open the batting, a front line spinner to bowl spin and a third seamer of a similar standard to your opening bowlers. And pick the team for the game you are playing. Meaning, throughout this series we needed two spinners not 4 quicks. They should have gone for Rashid and Plunket after the first test when it was clear our bowling lacked penetration. What we've learned is what was known before the series. Trott can't open. Ali isn't (yet) a front line spinner and don't pick both Stokes and Jordan (or Woakes for that matter) in a test 11. Oh, and Stoke's isn't a number 6 bat, or number 7. He's a #8. Same as Jordan. He has one style of batting - attack. When it comes off - great. But we need a proper batsman at six. It's going to be very interesting what the selectors do v New Zealand. Lyth for Trott is an obvious certainty. But what they do about the bowling will tell us more about the selectors' thinking. They could easily stay with the same attack. I suspect, true to their conservative nature, they will. I'd change things round a little. Bring in Plunkett for either Jordan or Stokes. Drop Bell for Taylor. And put a proper spinner in the squad - who, I have to admit, I don't know. I'd be happy with Rashid though. Then if a spinner is needed, play him ahead of either Jordan or Ali. Probably Jordan.
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on May 4, 2015 7:22:40 GMT
Agreed, the lack of a spinner really cost us today, Rashid would have loved that track. As for Trotty......we all know we're not going to see him in an England shirt again and it's a shame that people will tend to remember this broken Trott as opposed to the guy who was our rock for our most successful period. Ironic that Cook and Moores clearly didn't pick Rashid as they feared he'd be too expensive, yet arguably it was Root and Ali's abysmal and expensive 1st innings bowling that cost us the game when we should have bowled the West Indies out for 120. It's what happens when you lack courage, and it's why we'll never progress under Moores as far as I'm concerned........ This. Awful coach. Awful captain. Both far too negative. Unfortunately there is no other candidate for captain...other than root..but as stated earlier in thread..wouldnt want to saddle him with it. Although if you're good enough..you're old enough?
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Post by heisenberg88 on May 4, 2015 9:56:38 GMT
People rave about buttler but his keeping is average. Not good enough and not even in the top 5 keepers in England. That stumping chance was regulation.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on May 4, 2015 10:40:28 GMT
England should try their hardest to get Jason Gillespie, and get rid of that clown Moores. Talking of Moores, is he related to Mick McCarthy?
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Post by partickpotter on May 4, 2015 12:39:34 GMT
England should try their hardest to get Jason Gillespie, and get rid of that clown Moores. Talking of Moores, is he related to Mick McCarthy? Don't hold your breath. The news today of Strauss's likely appointment as managing director of the ECB does not suggest the conservatism at the heart of English cricket is likely to change. After all the current malaise started with Strauss's appointment as captain in a dismal tour of the Windies. Cook's approach as captain is a continuation of Strauss's approach. A long way from how Vaughan approached the game when he was in charge.
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Post by salopstick on May 4, 2015 14:59:23 GMT
Cricket needs a good West Indies team. Then we can have five match series again
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 15:11:28 GMT
People rave about buttler but his keeping is average. Not good enough and not even in the top 5 keepers in England. That stumping chance was regulation. He will improve I'm sure , Matt Prior was very similar when he first played , he turned out to be a top class keeper .
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