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Post by OldStokie on Feb 8, 2015 12:20:49 GMT
My view of suicide is that it is a cowardly act.
Dave, you really need to think about what you post. I have heard this statement so many times that it drives me crazy. Suicide may be many things: selfish, self-serving, cruel, amongst others, but cowardly it is not. Nature has built into all creatures the survival instinct... at all costs. It's only when someone has lost the ability to think straight; when life's natural instincts have been overcome, that people commit suicide. Bravery or cowardice has nothing to do with anything. To put it bluntly, at that precise moment when they walk in front a bus or whatever, they're nuts... crackers... have lost their mind.
You may be right that Clarke Carlisle has been a malingerer; a manipulator because he basically has a weak personality, but that doesn't mean he isn't ill. It's not just brave people and those with strong personalities who can suffer from depression. Although many of them do when they are taken out of their comfort zone. Take soldiers for example. Nobody can brand them as cowards if they've fought in battles, but you can if they take their own life because they are lost when returned to civvy life?
And to emphasise my point that those who commit suicide are not cowards, take for example those who take their own lives when everything around them is fine and dandy. The Gary Speed incident is one such example. In my long life I have known others that happened just like his. And don't laugh if I tell you that it could happen to you tomorrow. It really could. All it takes is for the chemical imbalance in your brain to go wrong, and before you know it, you will be walking in front of a bus, and I can absolutely guarantee that you won't be thinking about a bus driver or anyone else if it happens. The brain is a complex organ that can break just like a crankshaft does in an engine if a bit of dirt gets in the the oilway and blocks the lubricant to the big end.
Now carry on your debate.
OS.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 13:12:59 GMT
I've said my piece on football doing more and also footballers preparing for a life outside football because they can be the root causes. However the problem with depression is it is not a disease that gives visual symptoms and that is why some people find it hard to understand or be sympathetic. For example I read this week that Gary glitter used depression over his bankruptcy for some of his crimes, Depression hits everyone differently. It can be easy to just ignore it but at the same time it's a struggle to accept some actions that are "apparently" a by product of same depression. I really Don't understand why football needs to do more for footballers. They went to school the same as me, they are adults and perfectly capable of making their own decisions in life. They can afford courses which I cannot, and can get an education most people could only dream of. Some footballers just live a very selfish life as do some plumbers, electricians and in all trades. Should companies also do more for employees. Some people just suffer for the way they live their lives, which is by making their own choices. At the end of the day Clarke Carlisle has made his own choices and by what I have read very selfish ones. I really find it hard to have sympathy for anyone who would try and kill themselves when they have children (especially young ones). As a parent I could not imagine not seeing what my children grow up to be, and just to look at your child's face should be enough to make you realise what wealth really is.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 8, 2015 13:35:19 GMT
My view of suicide is that it is a cowardly act.Dave, you really need to think about what you post. I have heard this statement so many times that it drives me crazy. Suicide may be many things: selfish, self-serving, cruel, amongst others, but cowardly it is not. Nature has built into all creatures the survival instinct... at all costs. It's only when someone has lost the ability to think straight; when life's natural instincts have been overcome, that people commit suicide. Bravery or cowardice has nothing to do with anything. To put it bluntly, at that precise moment when they walk in front a bus or whatever, they're nuts... crackers... have lost their mind. You may be right that Clarke Carlisle has been a malingerer; a manipulator because he basically has a weak personality, but that doesn't mean he isn't ill. It's not just brave people and those with strong personalities who can suffer from depression. Although many of them do when they are taken out of their comfort zone. Take soldiers for example. Nobody can brand them as cowards if they've fought in battles, but you can if they take their own life because they are lost when returned to civvy life? And to emphasise my point that those who commit suicide are not cowards, take for example those who take their own lives when everything around them is fine and dandy. The Gary Speed incident is one such example. In my long life I have known others that happened just like his. And don't laugh if I tell you that it could happen to you tomorrow. It really could. All it takes is for the chemical imbalance in your brain to go wrong, and before you know it, you will be walking in front of a bus, and I can absolutely guarantee that you won't be thinking about a bus driver or anyone else if it happens. The brain is a complex organ that can break just like a crankshaft does in an engine if a bit of dirt gets in the the oilway and blocks the lubricant to the big end. Now carry on your debate. OS. In the absence of psychosis it is my belief that suicide is a selfish and cowardly act. Perhaps I haven't articulated well enough (its difficult to do so on a crappy phone with other things going on around you...namely kids wanting to play football all day long), but from what I've read and from listening to Carlisle speak, I don't believe he's either psychotic or clinically depressed and I believe that his situation in many ways diminishes the fight of others who truly suffer from that horrible mental illness. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe he is deserving of sympathy but I am struggling to offer the same sentiments as the opening poster towards Clarke Carlisle.
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Post by Cast no shadow on Jul 4, 2015 11:10:18 GMT
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Post by spitshaw on Jul 4, 2015 11:24:31 GMT
Doesn't say a thing about killing himself in the article though does it
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jul 4, 2015 11:24:45 GMT
Very very sad. Terrible for his partner and family. R.I.P.
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Post by jeycov on Jul 4, 2015 11:27:12 GMT
Desperately sad news for all involved
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Post by andylgr on Jul 4, 2015 11:33:43 GMT
Selfish that Carlisles actions ended up making this normal bloke depressed too. Very sad for him and his family.
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Post by redandwhitetundra on Jul 4, 2015 11:46:47 GMT
Doesn't say a thing about killing himself in the article though does it Might notnsay it directly, but there are some very strong hints towards it. RIP to the fella anyway...
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Post by cmc89 on Jul 4, 2015 12:51:25 GMT
Selfish that Carlisles actions ended up making this normal bloke depressed too. Very sad for him and his family. Go on, I'll bite, While the incident was undoubtedly traumatic, we know nothing about this man before or after the crash. We don't know if he was suffering from mental health problems and we don't know if anything else has happened recently that could also add to the situation. Many people do get an 'adjustment disorder' following an incident like this which is basically a depression that follows an immediate, obvious cause. To blame it on Clarke Carlisle though is non-sensical. Also, I would say that if one in 4 people suffer from mental health problems at some point in their life, it is pretty normal. In that sense Clarke Carlisle is just a "normal bloke" too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 12:53:27 GMT
Quite sad on both sides.
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Post by jeycov on Jul 4, 2015 13:03:02 GMT
Selfish that Carlisles actions ended up making this normal bloke depressed too. Very sad for him and his family. Go on, I'll bite, While the incident was undoubtedly traumatic, we know nothing about this man before or after the crash. We don't know if he was suffering from mental health problems and we don't know if anything else has happened recently that could also add to the situation. Many people do get an 'adjustment disorder' following an incident like this which is basically a depression that follows an immediate, obvious cause. To blame it on Clarke Carlisle though is non-sensical. Also, I would say that if one in 4 people suffer from mental health problems at some point in their life, it is pretty normal. In that sense Clarke Carlisle is just a "normal bloke" too. This is a dreadful tragedy. At some point Carlisle was strong / brave enough to bring his personal situation into the public eye, to try and raise awareness of the condition. It's an illness that is probably there for life Clinical depression is more than simply feeling unhappy or fed up for a few days, it's most unfortunate that the phrase "depression" is used Such a sad outcome following todays news
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Post by bertiestan on Jul 4, 2015 14:00:54 GMT
I think there's plenty of ways to end your life without involving innocent parties, Clarke Carlisle is a very selfish man imo, rip chris Kilbride.
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 4, 2015 14:03:19 GMT
Selfish that Carlisles actions ended up making this normal bloke depressed too. Very sad for him and his family. What is a "normal bloke" ? Please elaborate.
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Post by ukcstokie on Jul 4, 2015 14:09:56 GMT
Selfish that Carlisles actions ended up making this normal bloke depressed too. Very sad for him and his family. So one bloke who was suffering from depression and may have taken his life deserves sympathy, while another who tries to take his life while suffering from depression is "selfish"? It's all sad. Very sad. It's also sad the lack of understanding and compassion that some have for mental health issues.
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Post by Beardy200 on Jul 4, 2015 14:15:24 GMT
I think there's plenty of ways to end your life without involving innocent parties, Clarke Carlisle is a very selfish man imo, rip chris Kilbride. If he has committed suicide I imagine some innocent person found his dead body so I suppose he's selfish too.
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Post by ukcstokie on Jul 4, 2015 14:17:09 GMT
I think there's plenty of ways to end your life without involving innocent parties, Clarke Carlisle is a very selfish man imo, rip chris Kilbride. FFS. Rationality goes out of the window when your mind is taken over by depression. For someone to consider ending it all - and the impact it would have on his family - demonstrates that all sense of rational thought had departed. Just read OldStokies post at the top of the page.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 4, 2015 14:42:41 GMT
Go on, I'll bite, While the incident was undoubtedly traumatic, we know nothing about this man before or after the crash. We don't know if he was suffering from mental health problems and we don't know if anything else has happened recently that could also add to the situation. Many people do get an 'adjustment disorder' following an incident like this which is basically a depression that follows an immediate, obvious cause. To blame it on Clarke Carlisle though is non-sensical. Also, I would say that if one in 4 people suffer from mental health problems at some point in their life, it is pretty normal. In that sense Clarke Carlisle is just a "normal bloke" too. This is a dreadful tragedy. At some point Carlisle was strong / brave enough to bring his personal situation into the public eye, to try and raise awareness of the condition. It's an illness that is probably there for life Clinical depression is more than simply feeling unhappy or fed up for a few days, it's most unfortunate that the phrase "depression" is used Such a sad outcome following todays news You say brave enough to bring it into the public eye others say convenient enough. He brought his "condition" into the public eye when he was facing the prospect of losing his punditry career and facing a jail sentence for yet another drink driving offence. Miraculously his "plight" saw him save his punditry career to some degree (he was a regular co-commentator on radio 5 live at the end of the season) and he got several hours community service instead of the prison sentence he deserved. Brave you say? Not for me. This latest twist in the whole sorry saga should surely be enough to tip Carlisle over the edge completely if he really is as depressed as he would like people to believe. His new woman, who he allegedly ditched his wife and kids for, had better be keeping a close eye on him and his drinking and gambling addictions over the days, weeks and months ahead. You gotta feel sorry for him haven't you? My heart bleeds!
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Post by ukcstokie on Jul 4, 2015 15:06:56 GMT
This is a dreadful tragedy. At some point Carlisle was strong / brave enough to bring his personal situation into the public eye, to try and raise awareness of the condition. It's an illness that is probably there for life Clinical depression is more than simply feeling unhappy or fed up for a few days, it's most unfortunate that the phrase "depression" is used Such a sad outcome following todays news You say brave enough to bring it into the public eye others say convenient enough. He brought his "condition" into the public eye when he was facing the prospect of losing his punditry career and facing a jail sentence for yet another drink driving offence. Miraculously his "plight" saw him save his punditry career to some degree (he was a regular co-commentator on radio 5 live at the end of the season) and he got several hours community service instead of the prison sentence he deserved. Brave you say? Not for me. This latest twist in the whole sorry saga should surely be enough to tip Carlisle over the edge completely if he really is as depressed as he would like people to believe. His new woman, who he allegedly ditched his wife and kids for, had better be keeping a close eye on him and his drinking and gambling addictions over the days, weeks and months ahead. You gotta feel sorry for him haven't you? My heart bleeds! Your contribution shows why it was brave. You seem to interpret all of Carlisle's actions as being manipulative. Manipulative people don't throw themselves in-front of trucks. Desperate people do. Desperate people in a dark dark place do. Says so much about your appreciation of depression.
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Post by ritchielegend on Jul 4, 2015 15:24:00 GMT
This is a football board! People expressing uninformed opinions about subject they no nothing about. It really does reach the lowest of the low when this kind of discussion takes place. Think of the poor people directly involved and consider their feelings I really think the board administrators might wish to consider whethe this is an appropriate place to express these opinions!
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Post by ukcstokie on Jul 4, 2015 16:32:00 GMT
This is a football board! People expressing uninformed opinions about subject they no nothing about. It really does reach the lowest of the low when this kind of discussion takes place. Think of the poor people directly involved and consider their feelings I really think the board administrators might wish to consider whethe this is an appropriate place to express these opinions! I hope that for every ill informed view that is expressed on here, some people gain a small degree of understanding by reading some of the more informed views (for example, OldStokie's post). The sad thing is that after reading some of the posts you can understand why there is a stigma attached to mental illness.
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Post by pottermost on Jul 4, 2015 17:16:47 GMT
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jul 4, 2015 18:05:10 GMT
Go on, I'll bite, While the incident was undoubtedly traumatic, we know nothing about this man before or after the crash. We don't know if he was suffering from mental health problems and we don't know if anything else has happened recently that could also add to the situation. Many people do get an 'adjustment disorder' following an incident like this which is basically a depression that follows an immediate, obvious cause. To blame it on Clarke Carlisle though is non-sensical. Also, I would say that if one in 4 people suffer from mental health problems at some point in their life, it is pretty normal. In that sense Clarke Carlisle is just a "normal bloke" too. This is a dreadful tragedy. At some point Carlisle was strong / brave enough to bring his personal situation into the public eye, to try and raise awareness of the condition. It's an illness that is probably there for life Clinical depression is more than simply feeling unhappy or fed up for a few days, it's most unfortunate that the phrase "depression" is used Such a sad outcome following todays news Spot on. I too think it is unfortunate that we use the term "clinical depression" as depression also has a different, less traumatic, meaning. Does anyone know enough about foreign languages to know if other countries use terms for ordinary depression and clinical depression which could lead to confusion - or have some/all of them thought things through and used different terms entirely for the two conditions?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 10:20:34 GMT
Concerns for Clark Carlisle again. Hope he turns up soon...
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Post by essexstokey on Sept 15, 2017 10:23:40 GMT
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Post by rockthecity on Sept 15, 2017 10:33:15 GMT
bloody hell, thoughts with his family! hope he turns up safe
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Post by Gifton on Sept 15, 2017 11:09:24 GMT
I don't need to read up on depression. I understand it fully. Some depressed people are brave enough to seek help and they have my respect and sympathy. A man who could destroy his kids isn't deserving of the same respect or sympathy. One...understand it fully; well please do tell me as I have spent a couple of years as a researcher trying to elucidate the biomolecular response that triggers this illness. Please, enlighten me. Two...there are levels of depression, and for example those at the deepest levels of this spectrum and then take prozac are at the highest risk of suicide. The prozac literally just gives them the energy to get out of bed and do it: for the first four weeks, that drug is bloody dangerous to that subset of patients. So please, educate me with your wealth of experience and understanding on this subject matter. Are you really going to continue an argument that ended two years ago?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 11:18:43 GMT
One...understand it fully; well please do tell me as I have spent a couple of years as a researcher trying to elucidate the biomolecular response that triggers this illness. Please, enlighten me. Two...there are levels of depression, and for example those at the deepest levels of this spectrum and then take prozac are at the highest risk of suicide. The prozac literally just gives them the energy to get out of bed and do it: for the first four weeks, that drug is bloody dangerous to that subset of patients. So please, educate me with your wealth of experience and understanding on this subject matter. Are you really going to continue an argument that ended two years ago? I did wonder after I'd sent the update whether it was the right thing to do in hindsight looking at some of the posts on here..........
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Post by Edward Tattsyrup on Sept 15, 2017 12:28:49 GMT
until people have starred in to the abyss they should refrain from commenting, for the good of his family and children any rational person should just wish for his safe return.
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Post by muglump on Sept 15, 2017 12:55:24 GMT
until people have starred in to the abyss they should refrain from commenting, for the good of his family and children any rational person should just wish for his safe return. This. I've had depression and still worked and unless you have experienced it you can have no view. It's like saying 'don't moan about that broken leg you can still run.' It's not rational. That's the whole fucking point i don't know this guy but i hope he gets sorted soon
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