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Post by prettything on Feb 7, 2015 15:11:30 GMT
Without speaking for everyone, it's probably people's astonishment over how somebody couldn't have sympathy for Carlisles predicament . Even people that know him don't have sympathy for him so it shouldn't be that surprising. I'd also ask how a bloke who has attempted to commit suicide by throwing himself in front of a lorry has escaped without a single broken bone and only a few cuts and bruises. Clarke Carlisle should be serving a prison sentence for yet another drink driving conviction and he should be having the arse sued off him by an innocent man who will be scarred for life by what Clarke Carlisle did to him. There are people far more deserving of compassion and sympathy than Clarke Carlisle, some of whom have posted on this thread themselves. I'm not sure how throwing him in prison will help us or himself. In fact it will make the situation worse.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 7, 2015 15:24:17 GMT
Even people that know him don't have sympathy for him so it shouldn't be that surprising. I'd also ask how a bloke who has attempted to commit suicide by throwing himself in front of a lorry has escaped without a single broken bone and only a few cuts and bruises. Clarke Carlisle should be serving a prison sentence for yet another drink driving conviction and he should be having the arse sued off him by an innocent man who will be scarred for life by what Clarke Carlisle did to him. There are people far more deserving of compassion and sympathy than Clarke Carlisle, some of whom have posted on this thread themselves. I'm not sure how throwing him in prison will help us or himself. In fact it will make the situation worse. So he should be allowed to commit numerous drink driving offences yet escape punishment? He should be allowed to endanger the lives of others in a road traffic accident, costing taxpayers thousands and thousands of pounds, yet be able to blame depression and escape Scott free? I simply can't agree with that at all.
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Post by prettything on Feb 7, 2015 15:35:58 GMT
It would cost the tax payer more to lock him up rather than treating him.
It boils down to empathy and prevention, Dave. You obviously believe in locking everybody up, no matter what the reasoning or predicament of the individual. Out of sight out of mind.
I believe with dealing with causation and eventual rehabilitation.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 7, 2015 16:02:13 GMT
I actually feel slightly uplifted reading this thread. The ignorant are clearly in the minority which definitely looks like progress.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 16:12:21 GMT
I'm not sure how throwing him in prison will help us or himself. In fact it will make the situation worse. So he should be allowed to commit numerous drink driving offences yet escape punishment? He should be allowed to endanger the lives of others in a road traffic accident, costing taxpayers thousands and thousands of pounds, yet be able to blame depression and escape Scott free? I simply can't agree with that at all. It's taken 7 pages but you are slowly winning this particular arguement.
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Post by cmc89 on Feb 7, 2015 16:19:55 GMT
So he should be allowed to commit numerous drink driving offences yet escape punishment? He should be allowed to endanger the lives of others in a road traffic accident, costing taxpayers thousands and thousands of pounds, yet be able to blame depression and escape Scott free? I simply can't agree with that at all. He should and likely will serve time for his drink driving. If you break the law when ill (even if psychotic) you still go through the legal system. Whether he should serve time or be rehabilitated through treatment is an entirely different argument that will extend this thread another 10 pages.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 7, 2015 16:23:27 GMT
So he should be allowed to commit numerous drink driving offences yet escape punishment? He should be allowed to endanger the lives of others in a road traffic accident, costing taxpayers thousands and thousands of pounds, yet be able to blame depression and escape Scott free? I simply can't agree with that at all. It's taken 7 pages but you are slowly winning this particular arguement. Where has anyone said he should be allowed off his drink driving offences? I don't claim to know all the facts of this specific case, but it's quite obvious Dave doesn't either. Despite insisting he is referring only to this specific case - about which, as I said, he doesn't have all the facts - many of the points he makes are of a more general nature. Probably why so many people are taking offence. I think most people having read this far will have reached the opposite conclusion to you. It's fairly easy to tell given the amount of negative responses to his posts and the number of people 'liking' those that disagree with him. By any democratic measure, he had already lost the argument by about page 2.
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Post by RAF on Feb 7, 2015 16:26:47 GMT
Has Clarke Carlisle actually been diagnosed by a mental health expert as being clinically depressed or has he just said he's depressed? I'd be interested to know. H According to his book he said he was diagnosed a while back (whilst he was still in his prime) and used to manage it with meds/psychologists etc. Righto fair enough cheers mate! H
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 17:10:05 GMT
It's taken 7 pages but you are slowly winning this particular arguement. Where has anyone said he should be allowed off his drink driving offences? I don't claim to know all the facts of this specific case, but it's quite obvious Dave doesn't either. Despite insisting he is referring only to this specific case - about which, as I said, he doesn't have all the facts - many of the points he makes are of a more general nature. Probably why so many people are taking offence. I think most people having read this far will have reached the opposite conclusion to you. It's fairly easy to tell given the amount of negative responses to his posts and the number of people 'liking' those that disagree with him. By any democratic measure, he had already lost the argument by about page 2. Thats because as a society we have become too soft. We make excuses for everyone and everything. We even create excuses for people to use to con the system. I am not saying clarke carlisle is using depression as an excuse for drink driving and almost causing the death of another motorist, but you could understand that people today will go to extreme lengths to get away with something they have done wrong. He could have been advised by an agent for all i know. How can you prove someone has depression? Could you pretend you are depressed? People pretend they are disabled and have money, parking badges and all sorts thrown at them. I dont think dave is ignorant, just fed up with hearing people making excuses all the time for poor behaviour.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 7, 2015 17:44:10 GMT
It would cost the tax payer more to lock him up rather than treating him. It boils down to empathy and prevention, Dave. You obviously believe in locking everybody up, no matter what the reasoning or predicament of the individual. Out of sight out of mind. I believe with dealing with causation and eventual rehabilitation. There you go you see. I don't believe in locking EVERYONE up at all. I haven't said that anywhere on this thread, nor is it "out of sight, out of mind". My views are expressed soley on the Clarke Carlisle case and it is possible to distinguish between him and others. My comment on the taxpayers money I was referring to was the air ambulance being called for a bloke who had sustained a few cuts and bruises. Do you know how much it costs to call out the air ambulance.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 7, 2015 17:58:47 GMT
It's taken 7 pages but you are slowly winning this particular arguement. Where has anyone said he should be allowed off his drink driving offences? I don't claim to know all the facts of this specific case, but it's quite obvious Dave doesn't either. Despite insisting he is referring only to this specific case - about which, as I said, he doesn't have all the facts - many of the points he makes are of a more general nature. Probably why so many people are taking offence. I think most people having read this far will have reached the opposite conclusion to you. It's fairly easy to tell given the amount of negative responses to his posts and the number of people 'liking' those that disagree with him. By any democratic measure, he had already lost the argument by about page 2. I haven't lost any argument because I aren't arguing. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I'm merely expressing mine. You choose to see it as a generalisation if you like but that isn't what I'm doing. I said that I had no sympathy for Clarke Carlisle. I don't. To me, he is using depression as an excuse for his countless misdemeanours. I don't know all the detail. Nor do you. I am commenting based on the detail that I know. He isn't deserving of sympathy in my opinion and showing sympathy and arguing in his favour, actually harms the very people who believe that mental illness should be at the forefront of peoples minds. If you want to put words into my mouth (fingers in this case) then go ahead but you are wrong to do so. EDIT - and just because my view on Clarke Carlisle and whether he should have our sympathies differs from yours, doesn't make me ignorant.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 7, 2015 18:28:54 GMT
Dave I openly admitted I don't know all the detail. You are acting like you know everything about this guy and are a trained medical professional. You've even implied that he faked the whole thing.
I'm not putting words into your mouth either. Your words are on this thread for all to see. These points apply beyond the case in question...
'Some depressed people are brave enough to seek help and they have my respect and sympathy'
So those who suffer in silence, the majority of the thousands who claims their lives every year, do not deserve sympathy?
'A man who could destroy his kids isn't deserving of the same respect or sympathy.'
You do realise that would extent to pretty much any man who has ever killed himself? None of them deserve sympathy?
'My view is that suicide is the easy way out, a cowardly way out' AND 'I don't need to read up on depression. I understand it fully.'
No offence mate, but based on most of what you have said on this thread, you DEFINITELY don't understand.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 7, 2015 18:41:51 GMT
Dave I openly admitted I don't know all the detail. You are acting like you know everything about this guy and are a trained medical professional. You've even implied that he faked the whole thing. I'm not putting words into your mouth either. Your words are on this thread for all to see. These points apply beyond the case in question... 'Some depressed people are brave enough to seek help and they have my respect and sympathy' So those who suffer in silence, the majority of the thousands who claims their lives every year, do not deserve sympathy? 'A man who could destroy his kids isn't deserving of the same respect or sympathy.' You do realise that would extent to pretty much any man who has ever killed himself? None of them deserve sympathy? 'My view is that suicide is the easy way out, a cowardly way out' AND 'I don't need to read up on depression. I understand it fully.' No offence mate, but based on most of what you have said on this thread, you DEFINITELY don't understand. Come on then, put me right. Don't just tell me I'm wrong and ignorant. Make a point of your own. I've experienced a mental illness first hand and nursed someone through those times so I do have an understanding of it. Perhaps "understanding fully" were the wrong words because no one understands it fully...not even the medical profession's. I've watched with interest the situation with Clarke Carlisle over the years and I comment based in what I know and understand in relation to his case. If something came out to make me change my mind, then I'd admit it. As things stand, I maintain that Clarke Carlisle isn't deserving of sympathy. His was a cowardly act, borne not out of desperation or mental illness but by a need to somehow justify and excuse his appalling behaviour that has endangered the lives of several people, including his own. Funnily enough, I don't know the full detail and neither does anyone else on here. However, the only person close to him to speak out seems to share a similar view of Clarke Carlisle's current plight as I do and i posted my opinion a few hours before the thoughts of his friend became public knowledge. Does that make me right? No it doesn't but it does at least add a bit I substance to the view that I'm expressing.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 7, 2015 20:10:10 GMT
Dave I openly admitted I don't know all the detail. You are acting like you know everything about this guy and are a trained medical professional. You've even implied that he faked the whole thing. I'm not putting words into your mouth either. Your words are on this thread for all to see. These points apply beyond the case in question... 'Some depressed people are brave enough to seek help and they have my respect and sympathy' So those who suffer in silence, the majority of the thousands who claims their lives every year, do not deserve sympathy? 'A man who could destroy his kids isn't deserving of the same respect or sympathy.' You do realise that would extent to pretty much any man who has ever killed himself? None of them deserve sympathy? 'My view is that suicide is the easy way out, a cowardly way out' AND 'I don't need to read up on depression. I understand it fully.' No offence mate, but based on most of what you have said on this thread, you DEFINITELY don't understand. Come on then, put me right. Don't just tell me I'm wrong and ignorant. Make a point of your own. I've experienced a mental illness first hand and nursed someone through those times so I do have an understanding of it. Perhaps "understanding fully" were the wrong words because no one understands it fully...not even the medical profession's. I've watched with interest the situation with Clarke Carlisle over the years and I comment based in what I know and understand in relation to his case. If something came out to make me change my mind, then I'd admit it. As things stand, I maintain that Clarke Carlisle isn't deserving of sympathy. His was a cowardly act, borne not out of desperation or mental illness but by a need to somehow justify and excuse his appalling behaviour that has endangered the lives of several people, including his own. Funnily enough, I don't know the full detail and neither does anyone else on here. However, the only person close to him to speak out seems to share a similar view of Clarke Carlisle's current plight as I do and i posted my opinion a few hours before the thoughts of his friend became public knowledge. Does that make me right? No it doesn't but it does at least add a bit I substance to the view that I'm expressing. I don't actually have to offer an opinion. You put yours out there and anyone is entitled to challenge it. So I'll ask again... You said, 'some depressed people are brave enough to seek help and they have my respect and sympathy' So, I'll ask again, those who suffer in silence, the majority of the thousands who claims their lives every year, do not deserve sympathy? You also said, 'a man who could destroy his kids isn't deserving of the same respect or sympathy.' So, I'll ask again, do you realise that would probably extend to the majority of the thousands of men who kill themselves every year? None of them deserve sympathy? You say that you are only referring specifically to the case of Clarke Carlisle, and not people with mental health problems in general. Juxtapose that with the comments I have quoted above and ask yourself if you can spot the contradiction. You say that Carlisle's mental health problems are purely the result of his own personal failings and that he wasn't depressed when he was a professional footballer. Where is your evidence for this? I'm not familiar with the details of this case, but I thought it was widely known he was suffering from similar problems even whilst he was a successful pro? You say you have substance for your allegations that he is simply using depression to further his career or escape criminal charges, but what exactly is this substance? Are you referring to the comments made on Twitter by an actor who last spoke to him ten years ago? That doesn't sound like substance to me. You imply that the very fact that he is an alcoholic is all the more reason for us not to have any sympathy for him. Do you seriously believe that anyone chooses to become an alcoholic? You also suggest that he might actually have faked this suicide attempt, because, in your own words, 'he has escaped without a single broken bone and only a few cuts and bruises'. Are you for real? Read that back again and ask if it sounds like something a sensible, rational person would come up with, or someone who judgement is impaired by a hatred of Carlisle personally. If we take the totality of your comments, that is what it looks like. Maybe I am wrong. You usually talk good sense, so it seems to stand out a bit more. And yes I do think you are ignorant. Perhaps suicide is a cowardly thing to do. Personally, I would have thought it's pretty scary. Either way, the fact that it is cowardly doesn't seem to provide grounds for discarding any sympathy altogether. People attempt suicide out of desperation, a sense of complete helplessness. For people in this state of mind, they often genuinely feel the world would be better off without them, so they are not able to comprehend the selfishness of their actions to the extent that you or I can. In terms of 'triggers', they don't really work in the way you suggest. In this context, a trigger and a cause are not the same thing. A trigger for an episode (depression or otherwise) can be any major life changing event. It could even be something that appears to be a positive change. The word 'trigger' is used to refer to an event activating problems that were already there. It is the trigger that forces them to bubble to the surface and become unmanageable. Alcoholism is recognised as a disease by the World Health Organization. People don't choose to become alcoholics. People choose to drink yes, but that is not the same thing. Most of us drink and most of us drink heavily. We do not become alcoholics as a result of this. Given these facts, it is probably likely that those who develop alcoholism do so because of differences in their brain chemistry, psychological differences, and so on. In general, the evidence does not support the idea that these people are 'weak'. Perhaps you are correct in diagnosing some of them as 'weak' or whatever, but that hardly suggests they deserve what they get does it? In terms of the relationship between drugs, alcohol and mental health conditions the relationship is usually symbiotic. People often drink more as a way of coping with their problems. The simple linearity implied by your understanding just doesn't reflect how the real world actually works. I agree people should accept responsibility for choices, but the world is not as black and white as you seem to think. You have to consider proportionality. So if a teenager runs across the road because his mates egged him on to do it then yes I think he is stupid and 'a sheep' and whatever else. But that doesn't mean, if he is killed, he deserves it because of the 'choice' he made and the fact he is weak. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here, merely pointing out the logical conclusion at which your understanding of morality terminates. According to your understanding, whatever happens to us is what we deserve, provided it results from the 'choices' we made. Alternatively, it's quite possible to sympathise with other people whilst simultaneously thinking they are idiots or, in the case of Carlisle, perhaps worse. I'm not really bothered too much about Carlisle, I'm only raising these points if you want people to stop being so 'cowardly' and so on, then attitudes need to change. I'd bet good money that many of the people posting on here admitting they are suffering from depression would not do so without the anonymity of the internet. Many others reading this will not even admit it on an internet forum. You can say they are weak, have made poor choices, or whatever, and then when the bodies pile up you can say they don't deserve any sympathy because they are 'cowards'. Perhaps part of the reason they suffered in silence, and part of the reason those folk are no longer with us, is because there are many people who share similar views to you. If these people come out and ask for help, they will have to deal with you talking down to them with your 'strong personality' or listen to the dickhead who posted above telling us that we are all being 'too soft'. Or worse yet, they may have people like you telling them they are doing it to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions. In short, they can't win. I can assure you what I have said carries much more substance than anything you have written on this thread. You can check the scientific literature, or ask anyone who has experience, in a professional or personal capacity, of dealing with the issues we are discussing. I'll put good money on them agreeing with most of what I have written and regarding your comments as ill-informed. In the interests of more people being able to talk freely about their problems, to have the 'courage' to seek help as you put it, there is no shame in occasionally accepting that perhaps, just maybe, you don't really know what you are talking about. Once people in your position have the 'courage' to accept their own ignorance, I honestly think it will be better for those who would otherwise continue to suffer in silence before their cowardly retreat into oblivion.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 7, 2015 20:25:18 GMT
I've said my piece on football doing more and also footballers preparing for a life outside football because they can be the root causes.
However the problem with depression is it is not a disease that gives visual symptoms and that is why some people find it hard to understand or be sympathetic.
For example I read this week that Gary glitter used depression over his bankruptcy for some of his crimes,
Depression hits everyone differently. It can be easy to just ignore it but at the same time it's a struggle to accept some actions that are "apparently" a by product of same depression.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 7, 2015 20:41:05 GMT
Come on then, put me right. Don't just tell me I'm wrong and ignorant. Make a point of your own. I've experienced a mental illness first hand and nursed someone through those times so I do have an understanding of it. Perhaps "understanding fully" were the wrong words because no one understands it fully...not even the medical profession's. I've watched with interest the situation with Clarke Carlisle over the years and I comment based in what I know and understand in relation to his case. If something came out to make me change my mind, then I'd admit it. As things stand, I maintain that Clarke Carlisle isn't deserving of sympathy. His was a cowardly act, borne not out of desperation or mental illness but by a need to somehow justify and excuse his appalling behaviour that has endangered the lives of several people, including his own. Funnily enough, I don't know the full detail and neither does anyone else on here. However, the only person close to him to speak out seems to share a similar view of Clarke Carlisle's current plight as I do and i posted my opinion a few hours before the thoughts of his friend became public knowledge. Does that make me right? No it doesn't but it does at least add a bit I substance to the view that I'm expressing. I don't actually have to offer an opinion. You put yours out there and anyone is entitled to challenge it. So I'll ask again... You said, 'some depressed people are brave enough to seek help and they have my respect and sympathy' So, I'll ask again, those who suffer in silence, the majority of the thousands who claims their lives every year, do not deserve sympathy? You also said, 'a man who could destroy his kids isn't deserving of the same respect or sympathy.' So, I'll ask again, do you realise that would probably extend to the majority of the thousands of men who kill themselves every year? None of them deserve sympathy? You say that you are only referring specifically to the case of Clarke Carlisle, and not people with mental health problems in general. Juxtapose that with the comments I have quoted above and ask yourself if you can spot the contradiction. You say that Carlisle's mental health problems are purely the result of his own personal failings and that he wasn't depressed when he was a professional footballer. Where is your evidence for this? I'm not familiar with the details of this case, but I thought it was widely known he was suffering from similar problems even whilst he was a successful pro? You say you have substance for your allegations that he is simply using depression to further his career or escape criminal charges, but what exactly is this substance? Are you referring to the comments made on Twitter by an actor who last spoke to him ten years ago? That doesn't sound like substance to me. You imply that the very fact that he is an alcoholic is all the more reason for us not to have any sympathy for him. Do you seriously believe that anyone chooses to become an alcoholic? You also suggest that he might actually have faked this suicide attempt, because, in your own words, 'he has escaped without a single broken bone and only a few cuts and bruises'. Are you for real? Read that back again and ask if it sounds like something a sensible, rational person would come up with, or someone who judgement is impaired by a hatred of Carlisle personally. If we take the totality of your comments, that is what it looks like. Maybe I am wrong. You usually talk good sense, so it seems to stand out a bit more. And yes I do think you are ignorant. Perhaps suicide is a cowardly thing to do. Personally, I would have thought it's pretty scary. Either way, the fact that it is cowardly doesn't seem to provide grounds for discarding any sympathy altogether. People attempt suicide out of desperation, a sense of complete helplessness. For people in this state of mind, they often genuinely feel the world would be better off without them, so they are not able to comprehend the selfishness of their actions to the extent that you or I can. In terms of 'triggers', they don't really work in the way you suggest. In this context, a trigger and a cause are not the same thing. A trigger for an episode (depression or otherwise) can be any major life changing event. It could even be something that appears to be a positive change. The word 'trigger' is used to refer to an event activating problems that were already there. It is the trigger that forces them to bubble to the surface and become unmanageable. Alcoholism is recognised as a disease by the World Health Organization. People don't choose to become alcoholics. People choose to drink yes, but that is not the same thing. Most of us drink and most of us drink heavily. We do not become alcoholics as a result of this. Given these facts, it is probably likely that those who develop alcoholism do so because of differences in their brain chemistry, psychological differences, and so on. In general, the evidence does not support the idea that these people are 'weak'. Perhaps you are correct in diagnosing some of them as 'weak' or whatever, but that hardly suggests they deserve what they get does it? In terms of the relationship between drugs, alcohol and mental health conditions the relationship is usually symbiotic. People often drink more as a way of coping with their problems. The simple linearity implied by your understanding just doesn't reflect how the real world actually works. I agree people should accept responsibility for choices, but the world is not as black and white as you seem to think. You have to consider proportionality. So if a teenager runs across the road because his mates egged him on to do it then yes I think he is stupid and 'a sheep' and whatever else. But that doesn't mean, if he is killed, he deserves it because of the 'choice' he made and the fact he is weak. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here, merely pointing out the logical conclusion at which your understanding of morality terminates. According to your understanding, whatever happens to us is what we deserve, provided it results from the 'choices' we made. Alternatively, it's quite possible to sympathise with other people whilst simultaneously thinking they are idiots or, in the case of Carlisle, perhaps worse. I'm not really bothered too much about Carlisle, I'm only raising these points if you want people to stop being so 'cowardly' and so on, then attitudes need to change. I'd bet good money that many of the people posting on here admitting they are suffering from depression would not do so without the anonymity of the internet. Many others reading this will not even admit it on an internet forum. You can say they are weak, have made poor choices, or whatever, and then when the bodies pile up you can say they don't deserve any sympathy because they are 'cowards'. Perhaps part of the reason they suffered in silence, and part of the reason those folk are no longer with us, is because there are many people who share similar views to you. If these people come out and ask for help, they will have to deal with you talking down to them with your 'strong personality' or listen to the dickhead who posted above telling us that we are all being 'too soft'. Or worse yet, they may have people like you telling them they are doing it to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions. In short, they can't win. I can assure you what I have said carries much more substance than anything you have written on this thread. You can check the scientific literature, or ask anyone who has experience, in a professional or personal capacity, of dealing with the issues we are discussing. I'll put good money on them agreeing with most of what I have written and regarding your comments as ill-informed. In the interests of more people being able to talk freely about their problems, to have the 'courage' to seek help as you put it, there is no shame in occasionally accepting that perhaps, just maybe, you don't really know what you are talking about. Once people in your position have the 'courage' to accept their own ignorance, I honestly think it will be better for those who would otherwise continue to suffer in silence before their cowardly retreat into oblivion. What a complete load of bollocks. I've nursed someone through such difficulties and come out the other end successfully so whilst it might make you feel better to paint me as the devil, the enemy of mental health sufferers, you're still wrong. You make sweeping generalisations about what I've posted when aside from the suicide angle, I'm referring specifically to Clarke Carlisle. My view of suicide is that it is a cowardly act. The act of a desperate person for sure and one that would merit sympathy in many cases and not in others. Listen to Carlisle talk. One minute he's depressed because he cant handle not being Clarke Carlisle the footballer, the next its something he's struggled with his whom life. He cant seem to make his mind up either way. I haven't for one minute suggested he faked it either. Given your expertise on this subject, surely you will know of suicide attempts that were actually nothing of the sort and were a cry for help. Of course, put everything together and you can still feel some sympathy. I just don't in this instance. I have lots of sympathy for his wife, kids and the driver of the vehicle that hit him, but none for him himself. I could go on and on answering your many "quotes" but is difficult to do on a phone so I will pick them up again tomorrow or Monday when I have my laptop to hand. Good comeback though and intelligently put, especially considering you started by saying you weren't inclined to respond as i put my thoughts out so anyone could challenge them. Isn't that what the thread originator did when he said he felt sorry for Carlisle? I wouldn't have started a threw on the subject of Clarke Carlisle. I merely responded, challenging the thoughts of someone who did.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Feb 7, 2015 20:51:25 GMT
Come on then, put me right. Don't just tell me I'm wrong and ignorant. Make a point of your own. I've experienced a mental illness first hand and nursed someone through those times so I do have an understanding of it. Perhaps "understanding fully" were the wrong words because no one understands it fully...not even the medical profession's. I've watched with interest the situation with Clarke Carlisle over the years and I comment based in what I know and understand in relation to his case. If something came out to make me change my mind, then I'd admit it. As things stand, I maintain that Clarke Carlisle isn't deserving of sympathy. His was a cowardly act, borne not out of desperation or mental illness but by a need to somehow justify and excuse his appalling behaviour that has endangered the lives of several people, including his own. Funnily enough, I don't know the full detail and neither does anyone else on here. However, the only person close to him to speak out seems to share a similar view of Clarke Carlisle's current plight as I do and i posted my opinion a few hours before the thoughts of his friend became public knowledge. Does that make me right? No it doesn't but it does at least add a bit I substance to the view that I'm expressing. I don't actually have to offer an opinion. You put yours out there and anyone is entitled to challenge it. So I'll ask again... You said, 'some depressed people are brave enough to seek help and they have my respect and sympathy' So, I'll ask again, those who suffer in silence, the majority of the thousands who claims their lives every year, do not deserve sympathy? You also said, 'a man who could destroy his kids isn't deserving of the same respect or sympathy.' So, I'll ask again, do you realise that would probably extend to the majority of the thousands of men who kill themselves every year? None of them deserve sympathy? You say that you are only referring specifically to the case of Clarke Carlisle, and not people with mental health problems in general. Juxtapose that with the comments I have quoted above and ask yourself if you can spot the contradiction. You say that Carlisle's mental health problems are purely the result of his own personal failings and that he wasn't depressed when he was a professional footballer. Where is your evidence for this? I'm not familiar with the details of this case, but I thought it was widely known he was suffering from similar problems even whilst he was a successful pro? You say you have substance for your allegations that he is simply using depression to further his career or escape criminal charges, but what exactly is this substance? Are you referring to the comments made on Twitter by an actor who last spoke to him ten years ago? That doesn't sound like substance to me. You imply that the very fact that he is an alcoholic is all the more reason for us not to have any sympathy for him. Do you seriously believe that anyone chooses to become an alcoholic? You also suggest that he might actually have faked this suicide attempt, because, in your own words, 'he has escaped without a single broken bone and only a few cuts and bruises'. Are you for real? Read that back again and ask if it sounds like something a sensible, rational person would come up with, or someone who judgement is impaired by a hatred of Carlisle personally. If we take the totality of your comments, that is what it looks like. Maybe I am wrong. You usually talk good sense, so it seems to stand out a bit more. And yes I do think you are ignorant. Perhaps suicide is a cowardly thing to do. Personally, I would have thought it's pretty scary. Either way, the fact that it is cowardly doesn't seem to provide grounds for discarding any sympathy altogether. People attempt suicide out of desperation, a sense of complete helplessness. For people in this state of mind, they often genuinely feel the world would be better off without them, so they are not able to comprehend the selfishness of their actions to the extent that you or I can. In terms of 'triggers', they don't really work in the way you suggest. In this context, a trigger and a cause are not the same thing. A trigger for an episode (depression or otherwise) can be any major life changing event. It could even be something that appears to be a positive change. The word 'trigger' is used to refer to an event activating problems that were already there. It is the trigger that forces them to bubble to the surface and become unmanageable. Alcoholism is recognised as a disease by the World Health Organization. People don't choose to become alcoholics. People choose to drink yes, but that is not the same thing. Most of us drink and most of us drink heavily. We do not become alcoholics as a result of this. Given these facts, it is probably likely that those who develop alcoholism do so because of differences in their brain chemistry, psychological differences, and so on. In general, the evidence does not support the idea that these people are 'weak'. Perhaps you are correct in diagnosing some of them as 'weak' or whatever, but that hardly suggests they deserve what they get does it? In terms of the relationship between drugs, alcohol and mental health conditions the relationship is usually symbiotic. People often drink more as a way of coping with their problems. The simple linearity implied by your understanding just doesn't reflect how the real world actually works. I agree people should accept responsibility for choices, but the world is not as black and white as you seem to think. You have to consider proportionality. So if a teenager runs across the road because his mates egged him on to do it then yes I think he is stupid and 'a sheep' and whatever else. But that doesn't mean, if he is killed, he deserves it because of the 'choice' he made and the fact he is weak. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here, merely pointing out the logical conclusion at which your understanding of morality terminates. According to your understanding, whatever happens to us is what we deserve, provided it results from the 'choices' we made. Alternatively, it's quite possible to sympathise with other people whilst simultaneously thinking they are idiots or, in the case of Carlisle, perhaps worse. I'm not really bothered too much about Carlisle, I'm only raising these points if you want people to stop being so 'cowardly' and so on, then attitudes need to change. I'd bet good money that many of the people posting on here admitting they are suffering from depression would not do so without the anonymity of the internet. Many others reading this will not even admit it on an internet forum. You can say they are weak, have made poor choices, or whatever, and then when the bodies pile up you can say they don't deserve any sympathy because they are 'cowards'. Perhaps part of the reason they suffered in silence, and part of the reason those folk are no longer with us, is because there are many people who share similar views to you. If these people come out and ask for help, they will have to deal with you talking down to them with your 'strong personality' or listen to the dickhead who posted above telling us that we are all being 'too soft'. Or worse yet, they may have people like you telling them they are doing it to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions. In short, they can't win. I can assure you what I have said carries much more substance than anything you have written on this thread. You can check the scientific literature, or ask anyone who has experience, in a professional or personal capacity, of dealing with the issues we are discussing. I'll put good money on them agreeing with most of what I have written and regarding your comments as ill-informed. In the interests of more people being able to talk freely about their problems, to have the 'courage' to seek help as you put it, there is no shame in occasionally accepting that perhaps, just maybe, you don't really know what you are talking about. Once people in your position have the 'courage' to accept their own ignorance, I honestly think it will be better for those who would otherwise continue to suffer in silence before their cowardly retreat into oblivion. Bob on.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 7, 2015 20:59:36 GMT
Well feel free to do so when you have a computer Dave. I'm not twisted anything you said. And I'm not deliberately taking anything out of context. All of the 'sweeping generalizations' you claim I am making are things I can quite easily back up simply by copying and pasting the many comments you have made on this thread. Either you have forgotten what you have said, or pretending not to have said it.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 7, 2015 21:16:50 GMT
Well feel free to do so when you have a computer Dave. I'm not twisted anything you said. And I'm not deliberately taking anything out of context. All of the 'sweeping generalizations' you claim I am making are things I can quite easily back up simply by copying and pasting the many comments you have made on this thread. Either you have forgotten what you have said, or pretending not to have said it. I'm not pretending anything. I'll be sure to come back to you. I've helped to bring someone back from the brink so your accusations above are unfair, unsubstantiated and plainly wrong. My view may be tainted by the fact that when faced with similar predicaments, we fought for all we were worth, so much so, that when we had to fight for our marriage neither of us had any left. I've read the winger thread with interest too and 5 hours ago, in page 2 of that thread, wuzza made a very good point. Perhaps he's right. That said, I don't see Carlisle in the sympathetic light that id view winger, particularly when you read oldstokies heartwrenching post.
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Post by draytonstokie on Feb 7, 2015 21:31:52 GMT
Come on then, put me right. Don't just tell me I'm wrong and ignorant. Make a point of your own. I've experienced a mental illness first hand and nursed someone through those times so I do have an understanding of it. Perhaps "understanding fully" were the wrong words because no one understands it fully...not even the medical profession's. I've watched with interest the situation with Clarke Carlisle over the years and I comment based in what I know and understand in relation to his case. If something came out to make me change my mind, then I'd admit it. As things stand, I maintain that Clarke Carlisle isn't deserving of sympathy. His was a cowardly act, borne not out of desperation or mental illness but by a need to somehow justify and excuse his appalling behaviour that has endangered the lives of several people, including his own. Funnily enough, I don't know the full detail and neither does anyone else on here. However, the only person close to him to speak out seems to share a similar view of Clarke Carlisle's current plight as I do and i posted my opinion a few hours before the thoughts of his friend became public knowledge. Does that make me right? No it doesn't but it does at least add a bit I substance to the view that I'm expressing. I don't actually have to offer an opinion. You put yours out there and anyone is entitled to challenge it. So I'll ask again... You said, 'some depressed people are brave enough to seek help and they have my respect and sympathy' So, I'll ask again, those who suffer in silence, the majority of the thousands who claims their lives every year, do not deserve sympathy? You also said, 'a man who could destroy his kids isn't deserving of the same respect or sympathy.' So, I'll ask again, do you realise that would probably extend to the majority of the thousands of men who kill themselves every year? None of them deserve sympathy? You say that you are only referring specifically to the case of Clarke Carlisle, and not people with mental health problems in general. Juxtapose that with the comments I have quoted above and ask yourself if you can spot the contradiction. You say that Carlisle's mental health problems are purely the result of his own personal failings and that he wasn't depressed when he was a professional footballer. Where is your evidence for this? I'm not familiar with the details of this case, but I thought it was widely known he was suffering from similar problems even whilst he was a successful pro? You say you have substance for your allegations that he is simply using depression to further his career or escape criminal charges, but what exactly is this substance? Are you referring to the comments made on Twitter by an actor who last spoke to him ten years ago? That doesn't sound like substance to me. You imply that the very fact that he is an alcoholic is all the more reason for us not to have any sympathy for him. Do you seriously believe that anyone chooses to become an alcoholic? You also suggest that he might actually have faked this suicide attempt, because, in your own words, 'he has escaped without a single broken bone and only a few cuts and bruises'. Are you for real? Read that back again and ask if it sounds like something a sensible, rational person would come up with, or someone who judgement is impaired by a hatred of Carlisle personally. If we take the totality of your comments, that is what it looks like. Maybe I am wrong. You usually talk good sense, so it seems to stand out a bit more. And yes I do think you are ignorant. Perhaps suicide is a cowardly thing to do. Personally, I would have thought it's pretty scary. Either way, the fact that it is cowardly doesn't seem to provide grounds for discarding any sympathy altogether. People attempt suicide out of desperation, a sense of complete helplessness. For people in this state of mind, they often genuinely feel the world would be better off without them, so they are not able to comprehend the selfishness of their actions to the extent that you or I can. In terms of 'triggers', they don't really work in the way you suggest. In this context, a trigger and a cause are not the same thing. A trigger for an episode (depression or otherwise) can be any major life changing event. It could even be something that appears to be a positive change. The word 'trigger' is used to refer to an event activating problems that were already there. It is the trigger that forces them to bubble to the surface and become unmanageable. Alcoholism is recognised as a disease by the World Health Organization. People don't choose to become alcoholics. People choose to drink yes, but that is not the same thing. Most of us drink and most of us drink heavily. We do not become alcoholics as a result of this. Given these facts, it is probably likely that those who develop alcoholism do so because of differences in their brain chemistry, psychological differences, and so on. In general, the evidence does not support the idea that these people are 'weak'. Perhaps you are correct in diagnosing some of them as 'weak' or whatever, but that hardly suggests they deserve what they get does it? In terms of the relationship between drugs, alcohol and mental health conditions the relationship is usually symbiotic. People often drink more as a way of coping with their problems. The simple linearity implied by your understanding just doesn't reflect how the real world actually works. I agree people should accept responsibility for choices, but the world is not as black and white as you seem to think. You have to consider proportionality. So if a teenager runs across the road because his mates egged him on to do it then yes I think he is stupid and 'a sheep' and whatever else. But that doesn't mean, if he is killed, he deserves it because of the 'choice' he made and the fact he is weak. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here, merely pointing out the logical conclusion at which your understanding of morality terminates. According to your understanding, whatever happens to us is what we deserve, provided it results from the 'choices' we made. Alternatively, it's quite possible to sympathise with other people whilst simultaneously thinking they are idiots or, in the case of Carlisle, perhaps worse. I'm not really bothered too much about Carlisle, I'm only raising these points if you want people to stop being so 'cowardly' and so on, then attitudes need to change. I'd bet good money that many of the people posting on here admitting they are suffering from depression would not do so without the anonymity of the internet. Many others reading this will not even admit it on an internet forum. You can say they are weak, have made poor choices, or whatever, and then when the bodies pile up you can say they don't deserve any sympathy because they are 'cowards'. Perhaps part of the reason they suffered in silence, and part of the reason those folk are no longer with us, is because there are many people who share similar views to you. If these people come out and ask for help, they will have to deal with you talking down to them with your 'strong personality' or listen to the dickhead who posted above telling us that we are all being 'too soft'. Or worse yet, they may have people like you telling them they are doing it to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions. In short, they can't win. I can assure you what I have said carries much more substance than anything you have written on this thread. You can check the scientific literature, or ask anyone who has experience, in a professional or personal capacity, of dealing with the issues we are discussing. I'll put good money on them agreeing with most of what I have written and regarding your comments as ill-informed. In the interests of more people being able to talk freely about their problems, to have the 'courage' to seek help as you put it, there is no shame in occasionally accepting that perhaps, just maybe, you don't really know what you are talking about. Once people in your position have the 'courage' to accept their own ignorance, I honestly think it will be better for those who would otherwise continue to suffer in silence before their cowardly retreat into oblivion. I doff my imaginary cap to you. Your reply is one of the most well reasoned and articulate posts I have read and outstanding within this thread. I have read this thread many times over and have started to post a reply several times and then withdrawn for fear of being misunderstood misrepresented eat as appears to have happened elsewhere within this thread. I was diagnosed with a rare neurological disorder known as the worst pain known to mankind ( don't take my word for it view www.ouch.org. uk) yes ladies including childbirth! in 2009 but prior to achieving the diagnosis I travelled to USA for my sons wedding in Atlanta and whilst there was prevented from throwing myself from the ninth floor balcony by another member of family and security. I had no idea how I arrived there what made me think it was acceptable to spoil one of my wife's best experiences a family can enjoy? Be so selfish to leave a loving family devastated, the trauma to all other persons in a large hotel? Etc etc the answer is I could only focus on one thing, completely oblivious to anything else, and that was to join my dad who had died earlier in the year and to be relived of the extreme pain I was suffering. There was never any question of making 'choices' and I cannot begin to contemplate how CC would make a choice to choose a lorry in the hope he would not get any broken bones it's simply incomprehensible to me. Eventually we returned home, given the support of a wonderful wife and another son and a really understanding GP the depression diagnosis was made not because of the pain but the trigger was clearly my fathers death that I dealt with 'like a man' or how I thought I should react only for the grief to hit me like a sledgehammer. Therapy dealt with that really effectively for me. I remain on low dose anti depressants to help deal with my day to day mood swings because of the pain I suffer daily. It made me realise that we should view each day as a new opportunity to make the most of my better days and deal with the bad ones as best we can. Does CC deserve sympathy no it won't do him any good if he wants it as I was told by my Neuro its somewhere between shit and syphalis in the dictionary. I so like that man. Does he deserve compassion in my opinion yes. But I cannot tell you how terrific it feels to have so many contribute to a discussion that far to often never gets spoken about and has been viewed as taboo and often irrelevant. My dad was still around he would probably have told me to pull myself together years ago. If. Only it was that simple. To each and every contributor thank you.
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Post by swampySCFC on Feb 7, 2015 22:35:34 GMT
I haven't read all the stuff on here but you've got a guy with decent wealth and prospects, family etc and he chucks himself under a truck driven by a guy on £800 a month???? Anybody know what the truck driver is going through???
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 23:28:16 GMT
........and was back commentating on Qpr v Saints..
Happy days !
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 7, 2015 23:31:50 GMT
I wonder if the truck driver is back at work and seemingly ok?
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Post by 2004 on Feb 7, 2015 23:32:57 GMT
........and was back commentating on Qpr v Saints.. Happy days ! Was he still commentating before his suicide attempt?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 23:34:35 GMT
I have no idea ...
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 7, 2015 23:37:21 GMT
Lets hope he doesn't get any more similar thoughts in the interim!
Bit scary actually when you think about it.
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Post by MrMagic on Feb 8, 2015 0:08:44 GMT
Opinions are like arseholes
Everyone's got one
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Feb 8, 2015 9:31:23 GMT
........and was back commentating on Qpr v Saints.. Happy days ! Is it safe to put him up in the gantry to commentate on games?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 8, 2015 10:40:04 GMT
........and was back commentating on Qpr v Saints.. Happy days ! Was he still commentating before his suicide attempt? No he wasn't. He'd lost his 100k per year punditry role with the ITV.
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Post by 2004 on Feb 8, 2015 12:16:27 GMT
Was he still commentating before his suicide attempt? No he wasn't. He'd lost his 100k per year punditry role with the ITV. Hmmmmmmmmmmm
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