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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:41:09 GMT
Yes I'm putting my own ideas forward unlike you hiding behind other peoples expertise which you entirely fail to articulate, although all your links worked. Well done. there wasn't any need to articulate them...... they're not "My" ideas, they're proven medical fact! and why articulate them when you are literally the ONLY person on this thread that has so far been thick enough to suggest that it's no different from feeling a bit down after a Stoke game??? some have said they feel sorry for Carlisle, some don't but even those that don't haven't suggested that Depression is just some kind of "Pull yourself together silly boy" kind of state of mind. oh...and sorry for "Hiding behind someone else's expertise" i believe most people call that "Educating themselves" rather than having the arrogance of thinking that those that have studied it for decades are all fools and i know more than them based on...well, absolutely fuck all other than my own mind...sod evidence, facts and those boring things eh??!
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 15:41:57 GMT
Not trolling, just arguing that depression, clinical or otherwise, is about something specifc, not a mysterious illness/disease. It happens when people fail to accept reality on some level. It's not about something specific though. They are usually the triggers, but it's far more complex than that. I've had periods in my life when I've been very down. It's massively different to what clinical depression is about (after witnessing two people suffer from it close up).
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 15:44:07 GMT
Is it possible? And I'm not saying this happened , but is it possible that Carlisle just fell into the road pissed, survived and used it as a great excuse to try and get off his drink driving charge? Or is that just too cynical? Ralph Little seems to think it's not as cut and dried as some think. Either way the bloke needs help, that is for sure. H But he didn't get off the charge though.
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Post by potterblade on Feb 5, 2015 15:57:05 GMT
Yes I'm putting my own ideas forward unlike you hiding behind other peoples expertise which you entirely fail to articulate, although all your links worked. Well done. there wasn't any need to articulate them...... they're not "My" ideas, they're proven medical fact! and why articulate them when you are literally the ONLY person on this thread that has so far been thick enough to suggest that it's no different from feeling a bit down after a Stoke game??? some have said they feel sorry for Carlisle, some don't but even those that don't haven't suggested that Depression is just some kind of "Pull yourself together silly boy" kind of state of mind. oh...and sorry for "Hiding behind someone else's expertise" i believe most people call that "Educating themselves" rather than having the arrogance of thinking that those that have studied it for decades are all fools and i know more than them based on...well, absolutely fuck all other than my own mind...sod evidence, facts and those boring things eh??! If they arent your ideas you can shut up then cant you pal! Ill read it elsewhere thanks.
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Post by Will_75 on Feb 5, 2015 15:59:30 GMT
there wasn't any need to articulate them...... they're not "My" ideas, they're proven medical fact! and why articulate them when you are literally the ONLY person on this thread that has so far been thick enough to suggest that it's no different from feeling a bit down after a Stoke game??? some have said they feel sorry for Carlisle, some don't but even those that don't haven't suggested that Depression is just some kind of "Pull yourself together silly boy" kind of state of mind. oh...and sorry for "Hiding behind someone else's expertise" i believe most people call that "Educating themselves" rather than having the arrogance of thinking that those that have studied it for decades are all fools and i know more than them based on...well, absolutely fuck all other than my own mind...sod evidence, facts and those boring things eh??! If they arent your ideas you can shut up then cant you pal! Ill read it elsewhere thanks. only your own view based on, er, your own view is valid it is? brilliant close the libraries lads, shut down the universities - everything is new!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:59:31 GMT
there wasn't any need to articulate them...... they're not "My" ideas, they're proven medical fact! and why articulate them when you are literally the ONLY person on this thread that has so far been thick enough to suggest that it's no different from feeling a bit down after a Stoke game??? some have said they feel sorry for Carlisle, some don't but even those that don't haven't suggested that Depression is just some kind of "Pull yourself together silly boy" kind of state of mind. oh...and sorry for "Hiding behind someone else's expertise" i believe most people call that "Educating themselves" rather than having the arrogance of thinking that those that have studied it for decades are all fools and i know more than them based on...well, absolutely fuck all other than my own mind...sod evidence, facts and those boring things eh??! If they arent your ideas you can shut up then cant you pal! Ill read it elsewhere thanks. so you can only post on the oatcake about speculation then? facts on anything aren't important? cracking logic pal......just in case, do you want me to post a dictionary term of "Logic" as well or can't i use that as i didn't invent the word? don't wish to sound a snob but there's only a certain level of "Thickness" i can tolerate........
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Post by surreystokie on Feb 5, 2015 16:02:34 GMT
So sad and such a wasted talent - and I don't just mean as a fooballer.
Clarke always came over so well, as chairman of the PFA and spoke most eloquently at the annual Players' Awards Evening, while in office.
He has so many attributes, not least family-wise and physically, that so many others would crave. But ultimately he has nothing at all. And that should elicit only compassion and a thankfulness for one's own more minor attributes and an ability to enjoy them to the full.
I'm sure that many of us will be following his hoped-for progress, in the years ahead.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 16:06:29 GMT
there wasn't any need to articulate them...... they're not "My" ideas, they're proven medical fact! and why articulate them when you are literally the ONLY person on this thread that has so far been thick enough to suggest that it's no different from feeling a bit down after a Stoke game??? some have said they feel sorry for Carlisle, some don't but even those that don't haven't suggested that Depression is just some kind of "Pull yourself together silly boy" kind of state of mind. oh...and sorry for "Hiding behind someone else's expertise" i believe most people call that "Educating themselves" rather than having the arrogance of thinking that those that have studied it for decades are all fools and i know more than them based on...well, absolutely fuck all other than my own mind...sod evidence, facts and those boring things eh??! If they arent your ideas you can shut up then cant you pal! Ill read it elsewhere thanks. You obviously do need to read it elsewhere. Your ignorance and claiming to know the answer is astounding. Have you ever dealt with someone with clinical depression? Someone who can't see the positive in anything. Someone who pretty much anything will trigger their depression? Someone you dare not leave on their own? Not quite the same as how most of us feel when Stoke lose a few on the bounce.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 16:07:11 GMT
I personally don't like Clark Carlisle or the way he goes about certain things, I think he makes himself a target. However, when it comes down to it I would never, ever question the profoundness of depression, and to all the frankly sick bastards who have commented such derogatory posts, I can guarantee you wouldn't be posting such horse shit if for argument's sake a story about Bojan being depressed came out next week, or any other Stoke player for that matter. Some people on here are so fickle, I would be ashamed to think other fans come on to this message board and read some of the comments. don't be so fucking stupid that is like saying you shouldn't cry when your Mum dies before you don't cry when everyone's Mum dies if we give a shit about Bojan it's because we are biased - not fickle. That is a completely stupid example and completely irrelevant. The point I was making is that why should we victimise Clark Carlisle, when it a Stoke player was suffering from the same condition we would rally around him? The issue is a lot bigger than football, that is what I am saying. The fact you think we should be bias is proving my point.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Feb 5, 2015 16:18:03 GMT
If they arent your ideas you can shut up then cant you pal! Ill read it elsewhere thanks. You obviously do need to read it elsewhere. Your ignorance and claiming to know the answer is astounding. Have you ever dealt with someone with clinical depression? Someone who can't see the positive in anything. Someone who pretty much anything will trigger their depression? Someone you dare not leave on their own? Not quite the same as how most of us feel when Stoke lose a few on the bounce. Correct, Luke45 gets horribly depressed when we lose but I drop him off at Carnforth Station after the game knowing that the next time I see him when I pick him up for the next game, he'll be predicting an away win by three clear goals at Chelsea or some other similarly daft result. Would that life had been so simple when dealing with the one relative and the two friends I have known who have suffered with clinical depression. It is a pity that the word "depression" is used to describe being a bit upset about something and the disease of "clinical depression". If the one word was not used in both situations we might have fewer ignorant people thinking that clinical depression is simply getting upset about something.
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Post by mcf on Feb 5, 2015 16:31:10 GMT
don't be so fucking stupid that is like saying you shouldn't cry when your Mum dies before you don't cry when everyone's Mum dies if we give a shit about Bojan it's because we are biased - not fickle. That is a completely stupid example and completely irrelevant. The point I was making is that why should we victimise Clark Carlisle, when it a Stoke player was suffering from the same condition we would rally around him? The issue is a lot bigger than football, that is what I am saying. The fact you think we should be bias is proving my point. I'm not victimising him...I'm just saying that he's always come across as a complete and utter twat. It would make me fickle if I suddenly jumped on the 'Let's go over the top on the sympathy just because he's claiming to be depressed' bandwagon. I'm not saying that we should be biased but I wouldn't be able to help it. Put Bojan and Clark in a room and I have to shoot one of them and it would be Clark.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 16:36:03 GMT
You obviously do need to read it elsewhere. Your ignorance and claiming to know the answer is astounding. Have you ever dealt with someone with clinical depression? Someone who can't see the positive in anything. Someone who pretty much anything will trigger their depression? Someone you dare not leave on their own? Not quite the same as how most of us feel when Stoke lose a few on the bounce. Correct, Luke45 gets horribly depressed when we lose but I drop him off at Carnforth Station after the game knowing that the next time I see him when I pick him up for the next game, he'll be predicting an away win by three clear goals at Chelsea or some other similarly daft result. Would that life had been so simple when dealing with the one relative and the two friends I have known who have suffered with clinical depression. It is a pity that the word "depression" is used to describe being a bit upset about something and the disease of "clinical depression". If the one word was not used in both situations we might have fewer ignorant people thinking that clinical depression is simply getting upset about something. It's amazing isn't it? Those people who obviously have no experience of dealing with clinical depression (and you're spot on about the duel use of that word causes many problems) telling people who do have direct experience (sadly) that they know what clinical depression is really about. It's not an illness. It just caused by people not dealing with reality.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 16:39:52 GMT
That is a completely stupid example and completely irrelevant. The point I was making is that why should we victimise Clark Carlisle, when it a Stoke player was suffering from the same condition we would rally around him? The issue is a lot bigger than football, that is what I am saying. The fact you think we should be bias is proving my point. I'm not victimising him...I'm just saying that he's always come across as a complete and utter twat. It would make me fickle if I suddenly jumped on the 'Let's go over the top on the sympathy just because he's claiming to be depressed' bandwagon. I'm not saying that we should be biased but I wouldn't be able to help it. Put Bojan and Clark in a room and I have to shoot one of them and it would be Clark. Don't twats deserve a bit of sympathy if they're suffering from illness?
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Post by dadofsam on Feb 5, 2015 16:58:57 GMT
"Depression" has, unfortunately, become a bit of a card to wave. How many times do you hear the word being used by slebs, especially those whose career needs a bit of a lift. Inevitably the word becomes devalued and regarded with suspicion.
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Post by mcf on Feb 5, 2015 17:12:13 GMT
I'm not victimising him...I'm just saying that he's always come across as a complete and utter twat. It would make me fickle if I suddenly jumped on the 'Let's go over the top on the sympathy just because he's claiming to be depressed' bandwagon. I'm not saying that we should be biased but I wouldn't be able to help it. Put Bojan and Clark in a room and I have to shoot one of them and it would be Clark. Don't twats deserve a bit of sympathy if they're suffering from illness? Like Hitler?
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Post by podolipotter on Feb 5, 2015 17:12:26 GMT
Clinical depression is caused by a lack of a certain chemical in a part of the brain. Having taken the drug for the last 15 years to combat CD, I am pleased to say that it works. I would not wish a decline into CD on anyone - but Potterblade, I might wish him to have a mild dose. He would change his tune then. There is none so blind as those that see!
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 17:21:34 GMT
Don't twats deserve a bit of sympathy if they're suffering from illness? Like Hitler? The poor bloke is losing it and is obviously not well. Not well enough to make him want to take his life. And you're comparing him to Hitler - because he comes over as a bit of a twat in the media. Get a grip of yourself.
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Post by RAF on Feb 5, 2015 17:51:01 GMT
Is it possible? And I'm not saying this happened , but is it possible that Carlisle just fell into the road pissed, survived and used it as a great excuse to try and get off his drink driving charge? Or is that just too cynical? Ralph Little seems to think it's not as cut and dried as some think. Either way the bloke needs help, that is for sure. H But he didn't get off the charge though. Well he's not been found guilty yet has he? So I'll rephrase it, do you think it is possible he has used getting run over and blaming it on depression as a tool to perhaps get some sympathy and have the charges dropped? H
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Post by mcf on Feb 5, 2015 18:00:26 GMT
But he didn't get off the charge though. Well he's not been found guilty yet has he? So I'll rephrase it, do you think it is possible he has used getting run over and blaming it on depression as a tool to perhaps get some sympathy and have the charges dropped? H Get a grip....he's got depression and so one step away from sainthood
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Post by lordb on Feb 5, 2015 18:41:19 GMT
I don't understand how davejohnno views the world. To be fair I don't think he's on a wind up. Why? My views are fairly consistent. Why are my views on the world important anyway? All that matters in this forum are surely my views on football generally and Stoke City in particular. It is after all a Stoke City message board. Consistent,yup. Can't knock you there. I do agree with much of your offerings in general. Just don't understand your view on this matter.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 5, 2015 19:16:17 GMT
Why? My views are fairly consistent. Why are my views on the world important anyway? All that matters in this forum are surely my views on football generally and Stoke City in particular. It is after all a Stoke City message board. Consistent,yup. Can't knock you there. I do agree with much of your offerings in general. Just don't understand your view on this matter. I know you do. You "like" more of my posts than anyone else I think! I'm not sure what's not to understand. I just don't share the sympathy for Clarke Carlisle that the opening poster suggested. My posts were, I thought, quite clear on that. Some took it as a sweeping generalisation that in referring to a lack of sympathy for Mr Carlisle that I was a heartless bastard who couldn't empathise with anyone who experiences mental illness which couldn't be further from the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 19:20:19 GMT
Consistent,yup. Can't knock you there. I do agree with much of your offerings in general. Just don't understand your view on this matter. I know you do. You "like" more of my posts than anyone else I think! I'm not sure what's not to understand. I just don't share the sympathy for Clarke Carlisle that the opening poster suggested. My posts were, I thought, quite clear on that. Some took it as a sweeping generalisation that in referring to a lack of sympathy for Mr Carlisle that I was a heartless bastard who couldn't empathise with anyone who experiences mental illness which couldn't be further from the truth. Don't read too much into it Dave. He likes a load of my posts too...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 19:42:17 GMT
funny how people are knocking Clarke Carlisle for his mental issues and how he has lived his life but wife beating,gambling,alcoholic Gazza is our hero. Truth is that ANYBODY with mental illness need help and support . Nobody lives inside their heads. Trouble is,because of the cuts,its worse than ever for help. Nobody could help my Mum back in 1987 and nobody can help me. Iv'e spent two years on a waiting list and got told to go to MIND (again). I battle on,as well as I can. I'd prefer it if this was moved to the "everything else" discussion page. Too many people taking the piss on a very difficult subject. Its no laughing matter so to those that are go be a "lad" down the pub or elsewhere.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 5, 2015 20:19:39 GMT
As well as the footballing authorities the players need to do more for a career out of football. It's ok if you are a prem player all your career you may have enough to sustain your lifestyle for ever.
There are plenty of players out of the prem on decent money but not enough to sustain their lifestyle when they leave.
There is not enough jobs in football for all of them.
We may see more stories like this.
I see johnos point. God knows what will happen to the lorry driver and his family all as a result of CC
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Post by cmc89 on Feb 5, 2015 20:39:15 GMT
This is one of those threads that pops up every now and then on the message board which is like dynamite. It's an explosive topic with very strong opinions formed from everyones own unique experiences. I'll add my (more than) 2 cents: There are 3 arguments going on here: 1. clarke carlisle is/isn't depressed. He is/isn't trying to get out of drink driving charges, gambling problems etc.. 2. Clarke carlisle does or does not deserve sympathy. 3. Depression in general is or isn't a serious condition I'll ignore the second as it more or less ties over the other 2 but with a lot of personal conjecture and additional emotions involved. 1. Clarke carlisle For those suggesting he has created this depression "excuse" as a get out clause, feel free to watch this documentary In fact, I'd suggest everyone watches it. He openly explores his own difficulties with mental illness as well championing better support for professional athletes regarding mental health. This was in 2011. I'd argue that the documentary, plus his book, makes it pretty obvious that he has been suffering for some time and in my opinion, has at times been one of the bravest role models for mental health in the public eye. It is not easy for people to openly discuss their own issues, let alone use it as a platform to try and help champion others. His work at the PFA, as with everyone in every job, was flawed but in the area of mental health he's done more than any other I could name. Also, when people suggest he hasn't been seeking help and that was the next step (rather than suicide), i'd wager my house that he's sought help and treatment has been ongoing. Sometimes the treatments offered aren't enough and people deteriorate (much like in cancer or any other chronic condition). 2. Depression in general It's been fiery because a lot of posters have personal experiences through themselves or loved ones of mental health (even DJ as he's openly said). As a healthcare professional working with people who suffer from mental health disorders, it's been a refreshing thread. Open debate is healthy especially on topics like this that are still taboo. As a society we ignore mental health, we ignore that suicide can sometimes be considered a failure of health care services to properly identify or treat people, we ignore that suicide is a huge killer in the UK, we ignore all of it. The outcome is that funding is cut heavier than ever and services are more and more stretched. People here have argued that depression isn't a medical condition, it isn't as serious as some are making out and that we can be clinically depressed if stoke lost 5 times in 2 weeks. As someone who diagnosis and treats depression, I'd like to reassure you that it's just not true. I'm not going to try and explain what depression is or how it affects thoughts, patients and their families simply because this post could easily become 3000 words. From my point of view (as a mental health sufferer and health care worker) keep arguing and exploring each others ideas on this topic. If anyone is getting offended by the topics involved as it is too close to home, i'd suggest taking a break from the thread and stop posting. It can be personally upsetting to see other people ideas (or what can be considered ignorance) but debate is healthy and can only help others who are reading this thread. I'm genuinely surprised and heartened by the number of supportive posts clarke carlilse has received here. The taboo is shifting slowly and without discussion it will always remain. Sorry for sounding a bit preaching. I'm a fucking liberal lefty after all
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Post by kiwistoke on Feb 5, 2015 20:39:37 GMT
Not posted for a while, but am always an avid reader. But genuinely shocked how people can belittle depression , it's something I wouldn't wish on anyone even the arsenal team :-) ! And when you have it you really have no control, you cannot think of others because of the big black hole you are in, with what seems like no escape and without help there is only ever going to be one outcome. Can most of you imagine any situation where you would freely decide to never see your kids again, I'm guessing not so imagine how fucked up you must be to even contemplate it .....
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Post by draytonstokie on Feb 5, 2015 21:38:00 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 5, 2015 21:52:50 GMT
Is it possible? And I'm not saying this happened , but is it possible that Carlisle just fell into the road pissed, survived and used it as a great excuse to try and get off his drink driving charge? Or is that just too cynical? Ralph Little seems to think it's not as cut and dried as some think. Either way the bloke needs help, that is for sure. H He's replied to Little and mentioned "repulsive behaviour" when he was younger. What did he do?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 22:25:26 GMT
Is it possible? And I'm not saying this happened , but is it possible that Carlisle just fell into the road pissed, survived and used it as a great excuse to try and get off his drink driving charge? Or is that just too cynical? Ralph Little seems to think it's not as cut and dried as some think. Either way the bloke needs help, that is for sure. H He's replied to Little and mentioned "repulsive behaviour" when he was younger. What did he do? Don't know the full story but he was an alcoholic. He borrowed his credit card for petrol and went on a drink binge. There's probably more to it than that but that's irrelevant, no matter what, this thread will not have a happy ending. A sensitive subject like this should be binned as soon as it arrives. It never ends well
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 5, 2015 22:40:04 GMT
He's replied to Little and mentioned "repulsive behaviour" when he was younger. What did he do? Don't know the full story but he was an alcoholic. He borrowed his credit card for petrol and went on a drink binge. There's probably more to it than that but that's irrelevant, no matter what, this thread will not have a happy ending. A sensitive subject like this should be binned as soon as it arrives. It never ends well Isn't that sort of attitude why it's such a topic though? Not talking about depression and what not is exactly the issue. I just want to know what he did when he was younger though, as he comes across as a holier than though sort so it has intrigued me.
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