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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 14:00:54 GMT
So you don't have sympathy for someone who took an irrational decision to end his own life, caused by a disease that causes you to make irrational decisions? FFS. I've witnessed the same silly thinking when loved ones are suicidal. It's not the person thinking it - it's the disease. Some people have the strength to deal with it. You don't know that YOU would. Nobody does. Sometimes the mental illness is just too strong. Take it from someone who spent time in hospital recently with an immediate family member who tried the same (and you have no idea how difficult it is to type those words), that you really don't understand a thing about this. Nothing. I know I didn't before my first hand experiences. That's right. I don't have sympathy for Clarke Carlisle. An alcoholic, serial drink driver, a gambling addict and now a bloke who is apparently depressed enough to adversely affect the lives of 3 other people in an attempt to end his own. I don't see a lot to feel sorry for in that lot. Is all of that the result of his depression or the cause of it? Maybe Clarkes's other problems are other symptoms of his mental illness?
He says he became depressed after being on the end of another drink driving charge. Wasn't he able to make a rational judgement then either? As you continue to fail to understand. Rational decision making goes out of the window. As for not understanding, I loved and cared for someone through anorexia, another type of mental illness. We hit some pretty low points along the way I can assure you. So why didn't you tell them just to have a burger and stop being so silly then? Were they acting rational? That's the same level of compassion and lack of understanding you're demonstrating here.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 14:06:06 GMT
So what happens Dave, if, god forbid, your wife, or one of your kids starts to suffer clinical depression? It can happen to anyone. What if they tried an attempt at suicide? Would you show the same compassion and sympathy to them or would you just tell them to be brave? See above. I loved and cared for my girlfriend through anorexia. We ended up getting married. We hit some pretty low points I can tell you. I sympathise with the problems you went through. But why can't you sympathise with somebody else suffering from a mental illness which causes irrational decisions and behaviour then?
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Post by mcf on Feb 5, 2015 14:09:42 GMT
Fuck it then....give him a medal. Role model to us all. So he's either a liar or a role model but nothing in between? Ask people like Ralf Little who knew him.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 5, 2015 14:11:35 GMT
See above. I loved and cared for my girlfriend through anorexia. We ended up getting married. We hit some pretty low points I can tell you. I sympathise with the problems you went through. But why can't you sympathise with somebody else suffering from a mental illness which causes irrational decisions and behaviour then? I can. I just don't have the sympathy for Clarke Carlisle. There is, in my opinion, more to this than meets the eye. Diminished responsibility defences, avoiding prison sentences, protecting his media/fa career???
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Post by mcf on Feb 5, 2015 14:13:40 GMT
I personally don't like Clark Carlisle or the way he goes about certain things, I think he makes himself a target. However, when it comes down to it I would never, ever question the profoundness of depression, and to all the frankly sick bastards who have commented such derogatory posts, I can guarantee you wouldn't be posting such horse shit if for argument's sake a story about Bojan being depressed came out next week, or any other Stoke player for that matter. Some people on here are so fickle, I would be ashamed to think other fans come on to this message board and read some of the comments. don't be so fucking stupid that is like saying you shouldn't cry when your Mum dies before you don't cry when everyone's Mum dies if we give a shit about Bojan it's because we are biased - not fickle.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 14:14:03 GMT
These threads only ever go one way and there are no winners. Admin - just delete it before we reach Godwin's law. It's only a matter of time. Isn't this the problem though? We're discussing mental illness - and trying to show DJ (and I'm sure there are many more reading this thread like him) that it's not about weakness and cowardice, it about a disease. As a society we brush this under the carpet. We try and hide it and treat people who suffer from the disease as if they're failures who we don't want to contact. That allows governments to cut funding because people are too scared about speaking out about mental health issues. That kills people. Lot's of people. But we don't talk about them because...you know. Keep it quiet. Some of the comments on here are embarrassing. But they need to be shown to be embarrassing so that people can challenge their own thinking. Maybe admin should move this to the other board - but people need have greater awareness of the problems of mental health.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 14:16:06 GMT
I sympathise with the problems you went through. But why can't you sympathise with somebody else suffering from a mental illness which causes irrational decisions and behaviour then? I can. I just don't have the sympathy for Clarke Carlisle. There is, in my opinion, more to this than meets the eye. Diminished responsibility defences, avoiding prison sentences, protecting his media/fa career??? So you think he's just faking it then? You think the healthcare professionals who have assessed and looked after him wouldn't know - but you would?
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Post by mcf on Feb 5, 2015 14:16:13 GMT
See above. I loved and cared for my girlfriend through anorexia. We ended up getting married. We hit some pretty low points I can tell you. I sympathise with the problems you went through. But why can't you sympathise with somebody else suffering from a mental illness which causes irrational decisions and behaviour then? free all prisoners then - the poor irrational souls... .... they are just suffering from a spot of mental illness
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 5, 2015 14:22:18 GMT
That's right. I don't have sympathy for Clarke Carlisle. An alcoholic, serial drink driver, a gambling addict and now a bloke who is apparently depressed enough to adversely affect the lives of 3 other people in an attempt to end his own. I don't see a lot to feel sorry for in that lot. Is all of that the result of his depression or the cause of it? Maybe Clarkes's other problems are other symptoms of his mental illness?
He says he became depressed after being on the end of another drink driving charge. Wasn't he able to make a rational judgement then either? As you continue to fail to understand. Rational decision making goes out of the window. As for not understanding, I loved and cared for someone through anorexia, another type of mental illness. We hit some pretty low points along the way I can assure you. So why didn't you tell them just to have a burger and stop being so silly then? Were they acting rational? That's the same level of compassion and lack of understanding you're demonstrating here. Reference your last comment...thats pretty low really for someone who is apparently offended by my lack of compassion for Clarke Carlisle. Organized meal times were part of the recovery process yes, as were lots of other things like seeking proper professional help. Fighting it for all your worth on a nutshell.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 5, 2015 14:24:31 GMT
These threads only ever go one way and there are no winners. Admin - just delete it before we reach Godwin's law. It's only a matter of time. Isn't this the problem though? We're discussing mental illness - and trying to show DJ (and I'm sure there are many more reading this thread like him) that it's not about weakness and cowardice, it about a disease. As a society we brush this under the carpet. We try and hide it and treat people who suffer from the disease as if they're failures who we don't want to contact. That allows governments to cut funding because people are too scared about speaking out about mental health issues. That kills people. Lot's of people. But we don't talk about them because...you know. Keep it quiet. Some of the comments on here are embarrassing. But they need to be shown to be embarrassing so that people can challenge their own thinking. Maybe admin should move this to the other board - but people need have greater awareness of the problems of mental health. You're failing though because I understand and agree. I just don't agree that they apply to Clarke Carlisle in this instance.
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Post by stokiejoe on Feb 5, 2015 14:24:55 GMT
What a shame that this item has deteriorated into yet another slanging match. This is a forum and people will have different views, no point attempting to change those with fixed views and certainly no argument is won by insulting one another.
I feel a bit of grown up maturity is needed.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 5, 2015 14:27:03 GMT
I can. I just don't have the sympathy for Clarke Carlisle. There is, in my opinion, more to this than meets the eye. Diminished responsibility defences, avoiding prison sentences, protecting his media/fa career??? So you think he's just faking it then? You think the healthcare professionals who have assessed and looked after him wouldn't know - but you would? A great response that and one which implies that I wouldn't know but you would. I bow to your superior knowledge.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 14:34:17 GMT
I sympathise with the problems you went through. But why can't you sympathise with somebody else suffering from a mental illness which causes irrational decisions and behaviour then? free all prisoners then - the poor irrational souls... .... they are just suffering from a spot of mental illness Many prisoners do suffer from mental illness. Maybe if we treated these people properly - before they sank that low, or even when they have committed a crime, maybe we'd have much safer streets.
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Post by mcf on Feb 5, 2015 14:35:51 GMT
What a shame that this item has deteriorated into yet another slanging match. This is a forum and people will have different views, no point attempting to change those with fixed views and certainly no argument is won by insulting one another. I feel a bit of grown up maturity is needed. Standard though isn't for the do gooders on here which to be fair is a scourge on modern society. Everyone is a victim and no one is given ever support or understanding. No one ever seeks to take advantage and rip the piss out of the wider public. These muppets can spend their time feeling sorry for an ale head that steals off his mates if they want and I'll save it for the starving children in Africa or even the abused kids up and down this country that were let down by their families, the local councils etc etc
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 14:41:24 GMT
Maybe Clarkes's other problems are other symptoms of his mental illness?
As you continue to fail to understand. Rational decision making goes out of the window. So why didn't you tell them just to have a burger and stop being so silly then? Were they acting rational? That's the same level of compassion and lack of understanding you're demonstrating here. Reference your last comment...thats pretty low really for someone who is apparently offended by my lack of compassion for Clarke Carlisle. Organized meal times were part of the recovery process yes, as were lots of other things like seeking proper professional help. Fighting it for all your worth on a nutshell. I'm not offended by the lack of compassion for Clarke. I'm see the lack of understanding of mental illness that you have quite clearly demonstrated is part of the reason why mental illness is treated as badly as it is. My point about my last comment is saying that is about as daft as saying to someone who has just tried to commit suicide that they're "a weak coward". Both show a complete lack of understanding about the irrationality that mental illness causes.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 5, 2015 14:48:23 GMT
So you think he's just faking it then? You think the healthcare professionals who have assessed and looked after him wouldn't know - but you would? A great response that and one which implies that I wouldn't know but you would. I bow to your superior knowledge. How would I know to doubt him. How would you know? The people who look after him may though.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 5, 2015 14:52:58 GMT
Reference your last comment...thats pretty low really for someone who is apparently offended by my lack of compassion for Clarke Carlisle. Organized meal times were part of the recovery process yes, as were lots of other things like seeking proper professional help. Fighting it for all your worth on a nutshell. I'm not offended by the lack of compassion for Clarke. I'm see the lack of understanding of mental illness that you have quite clearly demonstrated is part of the reason why mental illness is treated as badly as it is. My point about my last comment is saying that is about as daft as saying to someone who has just tried to commit suicide that they're "a weak coward". Both show a complete lack of understanding about the irrationality that mental illness causes. I don't lack understanding of mental illness, I lack sympathy for Clarke Carlisle. There is a huge difference. It isn't my fault that you can't grasp this basic concept yet are able to grasp all the intricacies and complexities of mental illness.
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Post by potterblade on Feb 5, 2015 15:00:06 GMT
I have to admit it winds me up somewhat when depression gets framed as 'a disease' or an illness. Depressed people are depressed ABOUT something specific, whether they admit it cosciously or not. Its perfectly logical and SANE and natural to be depressed about plenty of issues. The fact that people like CC still have to actively campaign against racism in this supposedly civilised day and age depresses me for one.
Having said that, i think its still probably fair to say that depressed people can be as cowardly/brave as non-depressed people within the context of their depression.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 5, 2015 15:04:21 GMT
See above. I loved and cared for my girlfriend through anorexia. We ended up getting married. We hit some pretty low points I can tell you. Very sorry to hear that dave and I'm glad things worked out. But just to assume the worst for a second and imagine that one of the "low points" had been a suicide attempt... I have no sympathy for her whatsoever. She's a weak coward whether by illness or otherwise. I have great sympathy for her family who clearly aren't enough to fill her life with joy. A woman who could destroy her family isn't deserving of respect or sympathy. ? It would depend on the circumstances wouldn't it. She did get low enough to say that it would be better if she wasn't around and I often told her she was strong but needed to be stronger. Had she ever attempted to take her life in the manner that Clarke Carlisle did, I would have been disgusted with her. Fortunately it never got quite that bad but yea, I believe I would have felt the same as I do now in this instance. Edit - it didn't work out either in the sense that we got through it, got married, then got divorced :-)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:05:27 GMT
I have to admit it winds me up somewhat when depression gets framed as 'a disease' or an illness. Depressed people are depressed ABOUT something specific, whether they admit it cosciously or not. Its perfectly logical and SANE and natural to be depressed about plenty of issues. The fact that people like CC still have to actively campaign against racism in this supposedly civilised day and age depresses me for one. Having said that, i think its still probably fair to say that depressed people can be as cowardly/brave as non-depressed people within the context of their depression. please tell me you're aware that there IS a difference between someone saying "Oh i'm a bit depressed because of x,y or z" and "Clinical depression"?????? the 2 things are ENTIRELY different!!!!!! unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by PotterLog on Feb 5, 2015 15:08:03 GMT
Very sorry to hear that dave and I'm glad things worked out. But just to assume the worst for a second and imagine that one of the "low points" had been a suicide attempt... ? I'm would depend on the circumstances wouldn't it. She did get low enough to say that it would be better if she wasn't around and I often told her she was strong but needed to be stronger. Had she ever attempted to take her life in the manner that Clarke Carlisle did, I would have been disgusted with her. Fortunately it never got quite that bad but yea, I believe I would have felt the same as I do now in this instance. Ha, you had time to quote it before I deleted. I had second thoughts about the post because I thought it might be too personal an example, but I'm glad you replied. I will say I think you've definitely touched on an important point with the "better if I wasn't around" quote. Suicide is not a selfish act. Often, in the warped rationale of the sufferer, it's quite the opposite. Leaving it there.
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Post by potterblade on Feb 5, 2015 15:08:01 GMT
I have to admit it winds me up somewhat when depression gets framed as 'a disease' or an illness. Depressed people are depressed ABOUT something specific, whether they admit it cosciously or not. Its perfectly logical and SANE and natural to be depressed about plenty of issues. The fact that people like CC still have to actively campaign against racism in this supposedly civilised day and age depresses me for one. Having said that, i think its still probably fair to say that depressed people can be as cowardly/brave as non-depressed people within the context of their depression. please tell me you're aware that there IS a difference between someone saying "Oh i'm a bit depressed because of x,y or z" and "Clinical depression"?????? the 2 things are ENTIRELY different!!!!!! unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok, so the significance of clinical is...?
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Post by RAF on Feb 5, 2015 15:10:00 GMT
Is it possible? And I'm not saying this happened , but is it possible that Carlisle just fell into the road pissed, survived and used it as a great excuse to try and get off his drink driving charge? Or is that just too cynical? Ralph Little seems to think it's not as cut and dried as some think.
Either way the bloke needs help, that is for sure.
H
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:11:35 GMT
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 5, 2015 15:13:10 GMT
I'm would depend on the circumstances wouldn't it. She did get low enough to say that it would be better if she wasn't around and I often told her she was strong but needed to be stronger. Had she ever attempted to take her life in the manner that Clarke Carlisle did, I would have been disgusted with her. Fortunately it never got quite that bad but yea, I believe I would have felt the same as I do now in this instance. Ha, you had time to quote it before I deleted. I had second thoughts about the post because I thought it might be too personal an example, but I'm glad you replied. I will say I think you've definitely touched on an important point with the "better if I wasn't around" quote. Suicide is not a selfish act. Often, in the warped rationale of the sufferer, it's quite the opposite. Leaving it there. Not at all. It wasn't too personal and I wasn't offended in any way. I brought it up eventually so you're entitled to comment. See my edit as well in that post as well :-) Edit to this post - reference the selfish aspect, I did explain to her numerous times just how selfish such thoughts were. Thankfully it resonated and struck home. It was a lot to deal with for an 18 year old university student and was something very few people knew or know about.
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Post by potterblade on Feb 5, 2015 15:18:43 GMT
Fine but those criteria sound a lot like how I feel when Stoke lose. So what you are saying is that if Stoke could lose 5 times in a two week period I would be clinically depressed. You probably would too. Its basically a checklist for whether they can prescribe something or not and make money for the drug comapnies
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:20:18 GMT
Fine but those criteria sound a lot like how I feel when Stoke lose. So what you are saying is that if Stoke could lose 5 times in a two week period I would be clinically depressed. You probably would too. Its basically a checklist for whether they can prescribe something or not and make money for the drug comapnies has to be a troll surely?????? no-one could make it to adulthood with this kind of idiocy could they?????
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Post by potterblade on Feb 5, 2015 15:25:40 GMT
Not trolling, just arguing that depression, clinical or otherwise, is about something specifc, not a mysterious illness/disease. It happens when people fail to accept reality on some level.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:33:05 GMT
Not trolling, just arguing that depression, clinical or otherwise, is about something specifc, not a mysterious illness/disease. It happens when people fail to accept reality on some level. fair play!!!!! ignore all the medical research carried out by psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors, consultants and esteemed medical experts over the decades, we have someone on the bloody Oatcake that knows far more!!!! who needs scientific discovery and research eh when we have potterblade with his own beliefs that he's now presenting as some kind of medical "Fact"! must admit, i like what you've done with your "Fact"..you've put your unique spin on the definition of the word by making it mean the complete opposite of what the usually accepted meaning of the word is...you've taken a word that's been used for centuries and made it your own, it's a yes from me. Cheryl, Louis?
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Post by potterblade on Feb 5, 2015 15:36:47 GMT
Yes I'm putting my own ideas forward unlike you hiding behind other peoples expertise which you entirely fail to articulate, although all your links worked. Well done.
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