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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 18:37:32 GMT
It's just convenient you've seen the mistake Geoff made and hammered him for it but seen none of the others.
I've criticised Geoff.
I've also criticised Crouch, Bardsley, Diouf and even Ryan (as much as it pains me as he was outstanding otherwise than that one moment).
Balance is scarce on this place.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 23, 2014 18:42:55 GMT
Well yeah there's a vine of the goal, there's also a vine of Bardsley's tackle, I've been watching it for most of that day. I thought Geoff played well or can you not read? See metalhead for a similar blindness!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 18:44:54 GMT
Merry Christmas mate.
Have a good one.
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Post by foster on Dec 23, 2014 19:46:37 GMT
Bardsley
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Post by OldStokie on Dec 23, 2014 21:14:53 GMT
For Bayern and Thomas. It's called 'Wenger Syndrome'. Get it right, girls! Anyway, because I enjoy your sparring, a Merry Xmas to you both. OS.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 23, 2014 21:26:07 GMT
I think Bardsley is a better full back than Cameron but he had a mare last night and Chelsea exposed his weaknesses easily.
I reckon that Bardsley saw more of the ball than any other Stoke player. Cameron probably saw it 2nd most and for me Chelsea deliberately let them have it.
Neither are particularly good on the ball and both are prone to lose it in areas which allowed them to hit us quickly on the counter.
I lost count of the number of times both Cameron and Bardsley gave Chelsea the ball, exposing instantly the back 3/4 to a wave of Blue shirts.
Both have qualities. Neither are perfect. I prefer Bardsley but Geoff should play full back or not at all. Whelan and Sidwell are better midfielders, Wilson and Muniesa are better centre halves and whilst I believe Bardsley is better than Cameron, he has more chance of dislodging Bardsley than he does the others.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 21:32:50 GMT
I don't think Bardsley is much of an upgrade on Geoff at right back, based on half a season granted.
Bardsley is better one on one but both go walkies in different ways. Geoff dives in too much whereas Bardsley goes running up the flank and struggles to get back. Geoff is more athletic and gets up the pitch and back again, but Bardsley is better when he gets there. Geoff's final ball is awful at times, passable at others. Bardsley is more consistent in that respect.
There is not much difference which ultimately says nothing for Bardsley as a right back, because it is not Geoff's natural position.
Then again, what do you expect for free and 2M respectively? You ultimately get what you pay for and I think we've done remarkably well to get what we have out of both players.
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Post by lordb on Dec 23, 2014 21:35:04 GMT
Bardsley or Cameron?
Micah Richards please
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 23, 2014 22:00:26 GMT
I don't think Bardsley is much of an upgrade on Geoff at right back, based on half a season granted. Bardsley is better one on one but both go walkies in different ways. Geoff dives in too much whereas Bardsley goes running up the flank and struggles to get back. Geoff is more athletic and gets up the pitch and back again, but Bardsley is better when he gets there. Geoff's final ball is awful at times, passable at others. Bardsley is more consistent in that respect. There is not much difference which ultimately says nothing for Bardsley as a right back, because it is not Geoff's natural position. Then again, what do you expect for free and 2M respectively? You ultimately get what you pay for and I think we've done remarkably well to get what we have out of both players. Agree with all of this, Cameron is clearly not a right back and although I thought he needed replacing, I was disappointed (and said so at the time) with Bardsley as that replacement. The three weak points in the team (and they are STILL the three weak points in the team) are right back, right wing and centre forward.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 23, 2014 22:22:02 GMT
I don't think Bardsley is much of an upgrade on Geoff at right back, based on half a season granted. Bardsley is better one on one but both go walkies in different ways. Geoff dives in too much whereas Bardsley goes running up the flank and struggles to get back. Geoff is more athletic and gets up the pitch and back again, but Bardsley is better when he gets there. Geoff's final ball is awful at times, passable at others. Bardsley is more consistent in that respect. There is not much difference which ultimately says nothing for Bardsley as a right back, because it is not Geoff's natural position. Then again, what do you expect for free and 2M respectively? You ultimately get what you pay for and I think we've done remarkably well to get what we have out of both players. What is his natural position? The one that is his least natural position is probably his best because he is a lousy centre half, a poor midfield player and an average full back. He's a fine athlete but he's no footballer!
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Post by PotteringThrough on Dec 23, 2014 22:23:27 GMT
Are people really judging Phil Bardsley's effectiveness for Stoke City based on a night against one of the best players in the world? Give me strength. To be fair, not getting sent off after that big hit early on was a good effort.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 22:27:22 GMT
I don't think Bardsley is much of an upgrade on Geoff at right back, based on half a season granted. Bardsley is better one on one but both go walkies in different ways. Geoff dives in too much whereas Bardsley goes running up the flank and struggles to get back. Geoff is more athletic and gets up the pitch and back again, but Bardsley is better when he gets there. Geoff's final ball is awful at times, passable at others. Bardsley is more consistent in that respect. There is not much difference which ultimately says nothing for Bardsley as a right back, because it is not Geoff's natural position. Then again, what do you expect for free and 2M respectively? You ultimately get what you pay for and I think we've done remarkably well to get what we have out of both players. What is his natural position? The one that is his least natural position is probably his best because he is a lousy centre half, a poor midfield player and an average full back. He's a fine athlete but he's no footballer! Fair points dave, but what do you expect for 2M? 2M doesn't get you a good League 2 player these days does it?
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Post by numpty40 on Dec 23, 2014 22:32:36 GMT
I don't think Bardsley is much of an upgrade on Geoff at right back, based on half a season granted. Bardsley is better one on one but both go walkies in different ways. Geoff dives in too much whereas Bardsley goes running up the flank and struggles to get back. Geoff is more athletic and gets up the pitch and back again, but Bardsley is better when he gets there. Geoff's final ball is awful at times, passable at others. Bardsley is more consistent in that respect. There is not much difference which ultimately says nothing for Bardsley as a right back, because it is not Geoff's natural position. Then again, what do you expect for free and 2M respectively? You ultimately get what you pay for and I think we've done remarkably well to get what we have out of both players. Agree with most of that apart from "Geoff dives in too much". I'd say the opposite, I've never seen Geoff "dive in", whereas Bardsley probably "dives in" two or three times a game
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 22:34:08 GMT
I don't think Bardsley is much of an upgrade on Geoff at right back, based on half a season granted. Bardsley is better one on one but both go walkies in different ways. Geoff dives in too much whereas Bardsley goes running up the flank and struggles to get back. Geoff is more athletic and gets up the pitch and back again, but Bardsley is better when he gets there. Geoff's final ball is awful at times, passable at others. Bardsley is more consistent in that respect. There is not much difference which ultimately says nothing for Bardsley as a right back, because it is not Geoff's natural position. Then again, what do you expect for free and 2M respectively? You ultimately get what you pay for and I think we've done remarkably well to get what we have out of both players. Agree with most of that apart from "Geoff dives in too much". I'd say the opposite, I've never seen Geoff "dive in", whereas Bardsley probably "dives in" two or three times a game Geoff dives in and commits himself too early. I described it incorrectly. Bardsley dives into tackles. I hope that clears it up!?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 23, 2014 22:34:11 GMT
What is his natural position? The one that is his least natural position is probably his best because he is a lousy centre half, a poor midfield player and an average full back. He's a fine athlete but he's no footballer! Fair points dave, but what do you expect for 2M? 2M doesn't get you a good League 2 player these days does it? I don't expect a lot to be honest. The sad thing for me is that I'm not sure that either are any better than Shotton (who combined the best attributes of both) and neither are as good as Wilko at his best. Shotton and Wilko cost us nowt and probably earned a lot less in wages than both as well.
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Post by pedro23 on Dec 23, 2014 22:57:45 GMT
Neither played well against Chelsea. From his fine performance in midfield from the previous game I didn't see anyone complaining about Cameron lining up with N'Zonzi before the match started. But as is always the way on this board players are heroes or villains, week by week. Just look around the division, with the exception of a couple of teams, inconsistency of performance applies to the vast majority.
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Post by stokesaint1 on Dec 24, 2014 18:57:37 GMT
Bardsley is easily our best right back, anyone that says otherwise is either clueless or a mate of Tazi's. I loved that crunching tackle on Matic, I've missed a bit of that since Wilko has been out of the team. I am neither clueless or a mate of Tazi's but still think Bardsley has NOT improved our right back position one iota and hence is not easily our best right back. That said, I don't think Pieters has improved our left back position either. I felt more confident (but not happy) when Cameron and Wilson filled the roles, whilst realising and accepting that we needed better than both. Unfortunately, in my view we still haven't got better. Our defence of Cameron, Shawcross, Huth and Wilson were a damn sight more secure than the current back four, while admittedly Beggo was playing better as well. It's all about opinions.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Dec 24, 2014 19:00:38 GMT
Bardsley is easily our best right back, anyone that says otherwise is either clueless or a mate of Tazi's. I loved that crunching tackle on Matic, I've missed a bit of that since Wilko has been out of the team. I am neither clueless or a mate of Tazi's but still think Bardsley has NOT improved our right back position one iota and hence is not easily our best right back. That said, I don't think Pieters has improved our left back position either. I felt more confident (but not happy) when Cameron and Wilson filled the roles, whilst realising and accepting that we needed better than both. Unfortunately, in my view we still haven't got better. Our defence of Cameron, Shawcross, Huth and Wilson were a damn sight more secure than the current back four, while admittedly Beggo was playing better as well. It's all about opinions. They were more secure, but then they had another five players helping them out.
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Post by stokesaint1 on Dec 24, 2014 19:00:58 GMT
Bardsley or Cameron? Micah Richards please Now that's more like it. If we are intending to push on and not stand still or even go backwards, it's the sort of signing we need to make.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Dec 24, 2014 21:23:29 GMT
What I don't like about Cameron is his inconsistency. From one game to the next he can be a totally different player. Against West Ham he was excellent, and his sub appearance against Swansea too. Then he was horrible against Southampton, great again against Arsenal, then another bad performance against Chelsea.
What I don't like about Bardsley is how his performances have been consistently declining. In his first few games, IMO he was fantastic. But he has looked like a liability out there lately. Plus his first touch is pretty damn awful.
That being said, overall I like them both, and I think a quality striker is more important than a better rb in order for our team to move ahead.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Dec 24, 2014 21:38:01 GMT
Fair points dave, but what do you expect for 2M? 2M doesn't get you a good League 2 player these days does it? I don't expect a lot to be honest. The sad thing for me is that I'm not sure that either are any better than Shotton (who combined the best attributes of both) and neither are as good as Wilko at his best. Shotton and Wilko cost us nowt and probably earned a lot less in wages than both as well. They are both better than Shotton and Wilko. Wilko was one of my favorite players, but when he passes it the ball bounces three times before it settles into a roll on the pitch. They both simply don't have the technique that Bardsley and Cameron do, and it's quite apparent when you watch them trying to pass it out of the back. Which is very important. As fullbacks that only needed to clear the ball when it came to them Wilko and Shotton could do a job, but we weren't going to get better as a team if we didn't starting increasing our possession
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 24, 2014 23:53:47 GMT
I don't expect a lot to be honest. The sad thing for me is that I'm not sure that either are any better than Shotton (who combined the best attributes of both) and neither are as good as Wilko at his best. Shotton and Wilko cost us nowt and probably earned a lot less in wages than both as well. They are both better than Shotton and Wilko. Wilko was one of my favorite players, but when he passes it the ball bounces three times before it settles into a roll on the pitch. They both simply don't have the technique that Bardsley and Cameron do, and it's quite apparent when you watch them trying to pass it out of the back. Which is very important. As fullbacks that only needed to clear the ball when it came to them Wilko and Shotton could do a job, but we weren't going to get better as a team if we didn't starting increasing our possession I'm from the school that believes first and foremost, defenders should be able to defend. Anything else is a bonus. Wilko was an underrated player for me and for a few seasons, particularly when Pennant was alongside him, he look a really good full-back. Crude at times but willing to get forward to give Pennant more space to operate and a super defender with a "thou shall not get past me mentality". Bardsley is a moderate upgrade and Cameron is worse than Wilko was at his best. Much worse.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Dec 25, 2014 1:03:14 GMT
They are both better than Shotton and Wilko. Wilko was one of my favorite players, but when he passes it the ball bounces three times before it settles into a roll on the pitch. They both simply don't have the technique that Bardsley and Cameron do, and it's quite apparent when you watch them trying to pass it out of the back. Which is very important. As fullbacks that only needed to clear the ball when it came to them Wilko and Shotton could do a job, but we weren't going to get better as a team if we didn't starting increasing our possession I'm from the school that believes first and foremost, defenders should be able to defend. Anything else is a bonus. Wilko was an underrated player for me and for a few seasons, particularly when Pennant was alongside him, he look a really good full-back. Crude at times but willing to get forward to give Pennant more space to operate and a super defender with a "thou shall not get past me mentality". Bardsley is a moderate upgrade and Cameron is worse than Wilko was at his best. Much worse. of course fullbacks should be able to defend first and foremost, but they also need to be able to move the ball. Same with a good centre half. Great attitude and toughness from wilko but not as much skill as Cameron or Bardsley. I wouldn't have classed wilko as a super defender, even at his best. Courageous, tough as nails, the embodiment of our team in those first few years in the prem, and a local hero; but always punching above his weight.
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