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Post by partickpotter on Aug 6, 2014 11:39:14 GMT
Note the date on this cartoon; Then consider the message "Over Again" and what happened in 2012 and now in 2014. A picture indeed paints a thousand words.
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Post by britsabroad on Aug 6, 2014 14:19:19 GMT
Note the date on this cartoon; Then consider the message "Over Again" and what happened in 2012 and now in 2014. A picture indeed paints a thousand words. Thats pretty insulting to the people who endured the prison camps in the war. The two are a million miles apart and to compare the two is about as ridiculous as it gets.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 6, 2014 16:46:11 GMT
Note the date on this cartoon; Then consider the message "Over Again" and what happened in 2012 and now in 2014. A picture indeed paints a thousand words. Thats pretty insulting to the people who endured the prison camps in the war. The two are a million miles apart and to compare the two is about as ridiculous as it gets. Appreciate some might find it insulting - but you should ask yourself why you find it so. Indiscriminate slaughter of innocents is the common thread; the principle difference is scale. So the comparison is very valid and sadly poignant; captured succinctly in the choice of wording. The world (excepting the odd bam) recognises the holocaust for what it is - and rightly says "never again". However the (Western) world has turned it's back on what has happened to the Palestinian people so the slaughter repeats and repeats; over again.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Aug 6, 2014 19:44:37 GMT
But you do have an interest in Israel and Gaza, quite clearly demonstrated in this thread. Therefore you must have an opinion on what she said whilst she was in the cabinet of this country's government and was acting on yours and my behalf when she was making these comments. She wasn't acting on our behalf though, she wasn't voting on acts or legislation or deciding policy. She's left on morale grounds, the same person who was removed as party co chairman owing to claiming thousands of pounds in lodging allowance when staying with a friend Nah, not having that. So when a decision is made in government meetings they're not on behalf of the country?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 6, 2014 22:06:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 22:20:37 GMT
Blood is thicker than water....remember. You don't half talk some shit at times.....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 22:31:05 GMT
Dog shit is my particular speciality . Sarcasm and antagonism is yours.... "Ridicule is the first and last argument of a fool" (Charles Simmmons) "We are not won by arguments that we can analyse but by tone and temper, by the manner which is the man himself" (Samuel Butler) If a person can be said to have the wrong attitude, there is no need to pay attention to his arguments" (John McCarthy) Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/232443/israel-gaza?page=11#ixzz39eds82NM
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 22:44:45 GMT
Dog shit is my particular speciality . Sarcasm and antagonism is yours.... "Ridicule is the first and last argument of a fool" (Charles Simmmons) "We are not won by arguments that we can analyse but by tone and temper, by the manner which is the man himself" (Samuel Butler) If a person can be said to have the wrong attitude, there is no need to pay attention to his arguments" (John McCarthy) Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/232443/israel-gaza?page=11#ixzz39eds82NMI'm not trying to debate or argue with you though, I'm simply stating that you dunner half talk shite at times. So the quotes mean squat......
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 22:48:47 GMT
That's a relief. Those quotes were yours by the way.....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 22:51:31 GMT
That's a relief. Those quotes were yours by the way..... Yep remember them well, and all highly relevant to your debating skills......
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 22:57:17 GMT
....and yours. Infact you havent got any.
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Post by britsabroad on Aug 7, 2014 1:09:46 GMT
Thats pretty insulting to the people who endured the prison camps in the war. The two are a million miles apart and to compare the two is about as ridiculous as it gets. Appreciate some might find it insulting - but you should ask yourself why you find it so. Indiscriminate slaughter of innocents is the common thread; the principle difference is scale. So the comparison is very valid and sadly poignant; captured succinctly in the choice of wording. The world (excepting the odd bam) recognises the holocaust for what it is - and rightly says "never again". However the (Western) world has turned it's back on what has happened to the Palestinian people so the slaughter repeats and repeats; over again. Indiscriminate slaughter. Israel bombs residential areas, schools, hospitals etc because Hamas stores and fires weapons from there. The slaughter is not indiscriminate at all, it is collateral damage of another purpose. Germany on the other hand tortured, starved, gassed, experimented on and otherwise killed people for the sole purpose of eradicating a race. Even discounting the difference in scale, the two are nothing alike.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2014 5:27:48 GMT
Appreciate some might find it insulting - but you should ask yourself why you find it so. Indiscriminate slaughter of innocents is the common thread; the principle difference is scale. So the comparison is very valid and sadly poignant; captured succinctly in the choice of wording. The world (excepting the odd bam) recognises the holocaust for what it is - and rightly says "never again". However the (Western) world has turned it's back on what has happened to the Palestinian people so the slaughter repeats and repeats; over again. Indiscriminate slaughter. Israel bombs residential areas, schools, hospitals etc because Hamas stores and fires weapons from there. The slaughter is not indiscriminate at all, it is collateral damage of another purpose. Germany on the other hand tortured, starved, gassed, experimented on and otherwise killed people for the sole purpose of eradicating a race. Even discounting the difference in scale, the two are nothing alike. The wholesale killing of innocents is the common thread. You'd have thought that if there was one nation on earth that understood the sanctity of life it would be Israel - but they kill thousands of Palestinians without compunction. Time and time again. Go back to September 1982 and the slaughter of 3,500 Palestinian civilians. Once again. You find the comparison uncomfortable - you might find some others equally so; How about comparing the Warsaw ghetto with the Gaza Strip or highlighting the Marzabotto massacre as an illustration of the use of indiscriminate force that Israel now deploys. Let me be clear - I am terribly sad for Israel. I did a lot of work with Israel in the 1990s and had the great pleasure to travel there. Without fail everyone I met and worked with were wonderful. It was a great experience. The military actions they carry out sully the name of their people; they cast a dark shadow over their nation. The Palestinians may die by the score, but Israel also suffers by its own actions.
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Post by britsabroad on Aug 7, 2014 5:54:12 GMT
Indiscriminate slaughter. Israel bombs residential areas, schools, hospitals etc because Hamas stores and fires weapons from there. The slaughter is not indiscriminate at all, it is collateral damage of another purpose. Germany on the other hand tortured, starved, gassed, experimented on and otherwise killed people for the sole purpose of eradicating a race. Even discounting the difference in scale, the two are nothing alike. The wholesale killing of innocents is the common thread. You'd have thought that if there was one nation on earth that understood the sanctity of life it would be Israel - but they kill thousands of Palestinians without compunction. Time and time again. Go back to September 1982 and the slaughter of 3,500 Palestinian civilians. Once again. You find the comparison uncomfortable - you might find some others equally so; How about comparing the Warsaw ghetto with the Gaza Strip or highlighting the Marzabotto massacre as an illustration of the use of indiscriminate force that Israel now deploys. Let me be clear - I am terribly sad for Israel. I did a lot of work with Israel in the 1990s and had the great pleasure to travel there. Without fail everyone I met and worked with were wonderful. It was a great time. The military actions they carry out sully the name of their people; they cast a dark shadow over their nation. The Palestinians may die by the score, but Israel also suffers by its own actions. If wholesale killing of innocents is the common thread you could level that cartoon at any nation on earth, including our own. How many times have we bombed civilians by accident or through the use of human shields in Iraq/Afghan? The context in which its happening and the methods used are everything. That cartoon is just pandering to those who need to be told what to think.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2014 6:06:18 GMT
The wholesale killing of innocents is the common thread. You'd have thought that if there was one nation on earth that understood the sanctity of life it would be Israel - but they kill thousands of Palestinians without compunction. Time and time again. Go back to September 1982 and the slaughter of 3,500 Palestinian civilians. Once again. You find the comparison uncomfortable - you might find some others equally so; How about comparing the Warsaw ghetto with the Gaza Strip or highlighting the Marzabotto massacre as an illustration of the use of indiscriminate force that Israel now deploys. Let me be clear - I am terribly sad for Israel. I did a lot of work with Israel in the 1990s and had the great pleasure to travel there. Without fail everyone I met and worked with were wonderful. It was a great time. The military actions they carry out sully the name of their people; they cast a dark shadow over their nation. The Palestinians may die by the score, but Israel also suffers by its own actions. If wholesale killing of innocents is the common thread you could level that cartoon at any nation on earth, including our own. How many times have we bombed civilians by accident or through the use of human shields in Iraq/Afghan? The context in which its happening and the methods used are everything. That cartoon is just pandering to those who need to be told what to think. Agreed - killing of innocents is not limited to what is happening in Israel. But, I'm struggling to think of any sustained, repeated actions in a conflict that come close to what Israel is doing. It is in that context, along with the specific horrors inflicted on the Jewish people in WW2, where the cartoon has resonance and relevance. Very poignant. Admittedly it also plays to some folks prejudices, but it may also make some people think. That isn't the fault of the cartoon.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 6:40:53 GMT
"Worth a read" Yeh right
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Post by kbillyh on Aug 7, 2014 9:18:50 GMT
"Worth a read" Yeh right Did you read it Minnie? Some very informative stuff in there that may help you to understand how they use out and out bullshit in order to justify their murdering of children and civilians. Then again you may read it and laugh. Either way, give it a go.
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Post by britsabroad on Aug 7, 2014 9:34:46 GMT
"Worth a read" Yeh right Did you read it Minnie? Some very informative stuff in there that may help you to understand how they use out and out bullshit in order to justify their murdering of children and civilians. Then again you may read it and laugh. Either way, give it a go. I read it. It looks like something you would find in a student newspaper and every example paints only half a picture. Its written by someone who has witnessed some horrible results but has no clue of the causes. Id expect nothing less from the poster.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 9:44:02 GMT
"Worth a read" Yeh right Did you read it Minnie? Some very informative stuff in there that may help you to understand how they use out and out bullshit in order to justify their murdering of children and civilians. Then again you may read it and laugh. Either way, give it a go. To be quite honest, and huddy will already know this...I am one of the many that don't tend to read huddys links anymore......for obvious reasons
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Post by kbillyh on Aug 7, 2014 10:07:01 GMT
Did you read it Minnie? Some very informative stuff in there that may help you to understand how they use out and out bullshit in order to justify their murdering of children and civilians. Then again you may read it and laugh. Either way, give it a go. To be quite honest, and huddy will already know this...I am one of the many that don't tend to read huddys links anymore......for obvious reasons Fair enough, you obviously have issues with each other. Perhaps if i post it: This is worth a read: linkAh, just realised you may not actually be interested in the subject and are just following his posts in order to act out some kind of revenge or something.
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Post by kbillyh on Aug 7, 2014 10:17:00 GMT
Did you read it Minnie? Some very informative stuff in there that may help you to understand how they use out and out bullshit in order to justify their murdering of children and civilians. Then again you may read it and laugh. Either way, give it a go. I read it. It looks like something you would find in a student newspaper and every example paints only half a picture. Its written by someone who has witnessed some horrible results but has no clue of the causes. Id expect nothing less from the poster. Well that reply is a perfect example of what to expect from yourself. The killing for you is justified and you defend the oppressor rather than the oppressed at every opportunity, I'm sure that's perfectly obvious to anybody following this thread. Fair enough that's you view, Wish i could dismiss the horrors so easily.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 10:23:32 GMT
To be quite honest, and huddy will already know this...I am one of the many that don't tend to read huddys links anymore......for obvious reasons Fair enough, you obviously have issues with each other. Perhaps if i post it: This is worth a read: linkAh, just realised you may not actually be interested in the subject and are just following his posts in order to act out some kind of revenge or something. No, I really don't give a fuck about them I'm just having a laugh with Huddy Thanks for your concerns tho
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 7, 2014 10:26:38 GMT
Did you read it Minnie? Some very informative stuff in there that may help you to understand how they use out and out bullshit in order to justify their murdering of children and civilians. Then again you may read it and laugh. Either way, give it a go. I read it. It looks like something you would find in a student newspaper and every example paints only half a picture. Its written by someone who has witnessed some horrible results but has no clue of the causes. Id expect nothing less from the poster. And I'd expect nothing but arrogance and a closed mind from you matey.
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Post by kbillyh on Aug 7, 2014 10:48:09 GMT
Fair enough, you obviously have issues with each other. Perhaps if i post it: This is worth a read: linkAh, just realised you may not actually be interested in the subject and are just following his posts in order to act out some kind of revenge or something. No, I really don't give a fuck about them I'm just having a laugh with Huddy Thanks for your concerns tho Hahaha If i remember correctly were you not the one who was the big UKIP supporter? If so, i now understand why you wouldn't give a fuck about them.
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Post by britsabroad on Aug 7, 2014 10:52:18 GMT
I read it. It looks like something you would find in a student newspaper and every example paints only half a picture. Its written by someone who has witnessed some horrible results but has no clue of the causes. Id expect nothing less from the poster. Well that reply is a perfect example of what to expect from yourself. The killing for you is justified and you defend the oppressor rather than the oppressed at every opportunity, I'm sure that's perfectly obvious to anybody following this thread. Fair enough that's you view, Wish i could dismiss the horrors so easily. If youve comprehended that to be my view then thats more your problem than mine For the record: I think Israel are justified in responding to provocation from Hamas, the scale of the response is what is not justified. They are however reacting exactly as you would expect a nation to that felt it was under threat from its neighbours. We would do the same thing. Hamas is also complicit in the number of Palestinian deaths through their use of civilian buildings when provoking Israel, and would happily kill an equal number of Israelis if they had the equipment to do so. How to solve it? I dont have a sensible answer to that, and right now nor does anyone else on the planet.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 10:53:07 GMT
No, I really don't give a fuck about them I'm just having a laugh with Huddy Thanks for your concerns tho Hahaha If i remember correctly were you not the one who was the big UKIP supporter? If so, i now understand why you wouldn't give a fuck about them. Yeah?
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Aug 7, 2014 12:05:57 GMT
They are however reacting exactly as you would expect a nation to that felt it was under threat from its neighbours. We would do the same thing. Very true. I remember the days well when we launched missile after missile randomly into Irish civilian areas in responce to the IRA blowing up our town centres. ..... And just read the bit of your post I've quoted again. You don't think that Palestinian's feal under threat from their neighbours?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 7, 2014 12:11:00 GMT
This from Jeremy Bowen..hardly a schoolboy reporter. Since his recent report, he's taken a holiday.
Jeremy Bowen’s Gaza notebook: I saw no evidence of Hamas using Palestinians as human shields
Jeremy Bowen — New Statesman July 22, 2014
Trouble has been brewing between Israel and Hamas for months. The signs were there before the Israeli and Palestinian teenagers were kidnapped and murdered, and before Israel’s crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank. It’s all horribly familiar. Missiles, rockets and threats, and another Israeli prime minister saying that this time military action would make his people safer.
History shows that military action merely deepens the conflict. Only a proper peace deal will make Palestinians and Israelis safer. There is no chance of one right now, which means more small wars, which will eventually become much bigger ones.
Palestinians who live in Gaza often call it the world’s biggest prison. They mean that about 1.8 million people live in a small strip of land, and most of them are not allowed out by Israel and Egypt, which control the border crossings. In Gaza, the human spirit is strong and it can be a surprisingly cheerful prison, but not now, of course.
The main route into Gaza for a journalist is through the Erez checkpoint from Israel. Erez looks a shiny airport terminal, empty and echoing except for the security guards with automatic weapons, and bored young women in the glass passport booths checking their mobiles. To cross, you need a foreign passport and an Israeli press card.
After a series of corridors and steel turnstiles is a concrete wall with a steel door. It slides open, controlled by a distant Israeli at the other end of the CCTV, and Gaza is on the other side. Next comes a kilometre-long wired-in walkway. If you’re lucky, a few Palestinians granted permission by Israel to approach the gate will be waiting. They run a shuttle service that links up with taxis that take you to the Hamas checkpoint. Israel destroyed their small terminal when the current war started. Now they’re back to noting down passport numbers in a ledger on a table under the shade of a tree.
It wasn’t always like that. When I started visiting Gaza in 1991, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians crossed Erez every day to get to work. Paul Adams, my BBC colleague, told me that when he first went to Gaza, teaching on a gap year in 1980, he took a party of Palestinian children on a public bus from the West Bank for a day at the seaside.
Now, anyone who could negotiate a public bus service from the West Bank to Gaza would at the very least get a nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize. The diplomat who found a way to stop the killing on Gaza’s beaches and streets would deserve much more than that.
I saw Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, giving an interview to the BBC after Israel had killed more than 60 people in the Gaza district of Shejaiya. He said he regretted the civilian casualties in Gaza but they were the fault of Hamas. Netanyahu said Israel had warned people to get out. Some had taken the advice; others had been prevented from leaving by Hamas.
I was back in London for my son’s 11th birthday party by the time all those people were killed in Shejaiya. But my impression of Hamas is different from Netanyahu’s. I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel’s accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. I saw men from Hamas on street corners, keeping an eye on what was happening. They were local people and everyone knew them, even the young boys. Raji Sourani, the director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in Gaza, told me that Hamas, whatever you think of it, is part of the Palestinian DNA.
I met Sourani first when he was condemning abuses by Yasser Arafat’s men. He has taken an equally tough stance on Hamas. Now he says Israel is violating the laws of war by ignoring its legal duty to treat Palestinian civilians as protected non-combatants.
Hamas, human rights groups say, also violates the laws of war by firing missiles at civilians. I used to be very cynical about international humanitarian law. When I heard, some time around the end of the Bosnian war in 1995, that the UN was setting up a tribunal to prosecute war criminals in the former Yugoslavia I thought it was a bad joke. I feel differently now, especially after testifying four times at the tribunal. I don’t think anything similar is coming for the Israelis and Palestinians. But the laws of war are the best way we have to measure the degrees of horror that human beings inflict on each other.
When I left Gaza, Palestinian rockets were landing uncomfortably close to Erez crossing. When the alert sounded, our Israeli driver leapt out, leaving the engine running, and took cover behind a wall. It is very frightening to be caught up in a rocket attack like that. Israeli civilians have been protected by the Iron Dome anti-missile system, by a big investment in civil defence (in the border town of Sderot, even the bus stops double as bomb shelters) and because their people are trained from childhood about how to take cover.
But it is wrong to suggest that Israeli civilians near Gaza suffer as much as Palestinians. It is much, much worse in Gaza. I defy anyone with an ounce of human feeling not to feel the same after ten minutes in Gaza’s Shifa Hospital with wounded and dying civilians. In the mortuary, it’s so overcrowded that the bodies of two children are crammed on to a single shelf. One day, they had only found enough of the remains of six women and children to fill a single stretcher.
Before Gaza, I’d spent most of the past two months in Baghdad, Beirut, Jerusalem, Aleppo and Damascus. The Middle East is on fire. I haven’t seen anything like it since my first reporting trip to the region in 1990. I don’t think anyone knows how to put the fire out.
Jeremy Bowen is the BBC’s Middle East editor and the author of “The Arab Uprisings” (Simon & Schuster, £8.99)
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Post by britsabroad on Aug 7, 2014 15:54:40 GMT
They are however reacting exactly as you would expect a nation to that felt it was under threat from its neighbours. We would do the same thing. Very true. I remember the days well when we launched missile after missile randomly into Irish civilian areas in responce to the IRA blowing up our town centres. ..... And just read the bit of your post I've quoted again. You don't think that Palestinian's feal under threat from their neighbours? Not similar. The IRA is/was made up of people within our own borders.
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Post by kbillyh on Aug 7, 2014 18:38:55 GMT
Very true. I remember the days well when we launched missile after missile randomly into Irish civilian areas in responce to the IRA blowing up our town centres. ..... And just read the bit of your post I've quoted again. You don't think that Palestinian's feal under threat from their neighbours? Not similar. The IRA is/was made up of people within our own borders. OK, so you cannot see comparison there. Care to throw any dismissive comments regarding the Jeremy Bowen article? Also you seemed to have ignored the question put to you by Drunken. Any particular reason?
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