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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:50:19 GMT
Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 5, 2014 23:50:19 GMT
I take offense to the first sentence. It seems like you are saying that all yanks are inherently inferior at judging talent when it comes to football, and that stats should take a backseat to anecdotal evidence? I could be wrong, but I don't really like that statement because I don't want my statements dismissed simply because of where I was born. With regards to the stats issue, The Law of Averages proves that stats are accurate for assessing possible outcomes. Anecdotal evidence, on the other hand, will always contain some bias, and is likely to result in cherry-picking. The problem with statistics is when they are miscalculated, or used to confirm a bias, which I think is what you are really trying to get at? That the stats yanks use on here are confirming a bias in the belief that Cameron is not wank. A very fair claim to make IMO. That being said, I also believe that player ratings are a not a reliable stat to use when comparing Cameron to any other player today (yesterday now for you) because his rating is inflated from being taken off at half-time BEFORE two more goals were scored by Chelsea. If Stoke would have scored Cameron's rating would have been much lower than the others for the same reason. I've been telling this for years, I moved to the U.S. at (30) from Stoke and chose the name I have because well at that time I was one of a few regular posters in the US timezone. To be honest most Americans or "Yanks" as the UK posters like to say didn't 1.) know of Stoke or where it was on a map and 2.) had no Idea about the Premier league besides the big 4 pre-promotion. Whether you came here post promotion from US signings or American players or bcause of the media blitz from America or where have you they're location shouldn't have any merit on one's opinion because in fact most here as I remember said Geoff would never start for Stoke let alone the entire season for us in a stand in position in one of our most historical seasons ever. Thinking to my self, Ohh how them wacky yanks who I listened to were right! but in the same sense how did most of stoke think Wilko should start? But to your evidence... In that sense he played one half and so did Wilko mind you. The Second. One had a better half the other, not so much and It's plain as day who had the worst... Player rating is partly calculated by goals scored against. Everyone on the team takes a hit for that. So, Wilko and Adam gets -2x while Cameron gets -1x, the rest get -3x. Wilko did have a worse game because he conceded a penalty. But, there's no denying that Geoff gets an advantage here from being substituted.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:52:12 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 23:52:12 GMT
I've been telling this for years, I moved to the U.S. at (30) from Stoke and chose the name I have because well at that time I was one of a few regular posters in the US timezone. To be honest most Americans or "Yanks" as the UK posters like to say didn't 1.) know of Stoke or where it was on a map and 2.) had no Idea about the Premier league besides the big 4 pre-promotion. Whether you came here post promotion from US signings or American players or bcause of the media blitz from America or where have you they're location shouldn't have any merit on one's opinion because in fact most here as I remember said Geoff would never start for Stoke let alone the entire season for us in a stand in position in one of our most historical seasons ever. Thinking to my self, Ohh how them wacky yanks who I listened to were right! but in the same sense how did most of stoke think Wilko should start? But to your evidence... In that sense he played one half and so did Wilko mind you. The Second. One had a better half the other, not so much and It's plain as day who had the worst... Player rating is partly calculated by goals scored against. Everyone on the team takes a hit for that. So, Wilko and Adam gets -2x while Cameron gets -1x, the rest get -3x. Wilko did have a worse game because he conceded a penalty. But, there's no denying that Geoff gets an advantage here from being substituted. True but either way, Wilko was worse... am I wrong in thinking that?
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:54:29 GMT
Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 5, 2014 23:54:29 GMT
Wilko is good enough to be a back-up, and he wasn't out of position more than Geoff. As a rb the player should be moving along the right flank, which his heat-map shows. Geoff's spreads more into the central areas which means he was out of position more, and knowing where the other players and the ball were at the time are going to give a clearer picture. I feel bad for Geoff and Andy. Chelsea away defending with a team that can't string together more than 3 passes is always going to be a bad day for fullbacks. The heat maps show Wilko more forward and on the wing for most of the second half and Geoff in our third more... But you want your rb to get forward to make crosses from the wing, overlap, etc. So being there isn't the problem, although that is a criticism of Cameron very often is that he is too advanced. Wilko getting forward is not the problem, IF he is supporting or leading the attack. Moving into the middle can pay off like the fourth goal against Villa, but it means that Geoff is leaving his position. It's a shame Wilko conceded the peno, and that Cameron continues to be blamed for everything. Both good players for me, that is until we can afford players like Chelsea have.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 5, 2014 23:56:03 GMT
Bullsht. Look it up. There are stats for all of those things, they just have to be collected. I've seen plenty of Cameron's crossing stats, let's just say they are not great. Pickles is right, You American do base too much on stats. Stats are what keeps Jon Walters in a job I guess. Therefore stats should be treated with contempt. Walters has the worst stats on our team. I kid you not his crossing stats are worse than Cameron's, and yet he plays on the right wing! Walters is exactly why stats are important!
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:57:51 GMT
Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 5, 2014 23:57:51 GMT
True but either way, Wilko was worse... am I wrong in thinking that? I think that is fair to say, he was directly responsible for putting the game out of reach.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:57:59 GMT
Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 5, 2014 23:57:59 GMT
Pickles is right, You American do base too much on stats. Stats are what keeps Jon Walters in a job I guess. Therefore stats should be treated with contempt. Walters has the worst stats on our team. I kid you not his crossing stats are worse than Cameron's, and yet he plays on the right wing! Walters is exactly why stats are important! Walters is worse at crossing than Cameron so that isn't a surprise. And I am almost certain stats keep him in a job.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:01:37 GMT
Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 6, 2014 0:01:37 GMT
Walters has the worst stats on our team. I kid you not his crossing stats are worse than Cameron's, and yet he plays on the right wing! Walters is exactly why stats are important! Walters is worse at crossing than Cameron so that isn't a surprise. And I am almost certain stats keep him in a job. Well if they do we must have a preference for players with bad pass completion %, ones that commit lots of fouls, and have a very poor goals per appearance ratio.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:03:14 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 6, 2014 0:03:14 GMT
The heat maps show Wilko more forward and on the wing for most of the second half and Geoff in our third more... But you want your rb to get forward to make crosses from the wing, overlap, etc. So being there isn't the problem, although that is a criticism of Cameron very often is that he is too advanced. Wilko getting forward is not the problem, IF he is supporting or leading the attack. Moving into the middle can pay off like the fourth goal against Villa, but it means that Geoff is leaving his position. It's a shame Wilko conceded the peno, and that Cameron continues to be blamed for everything. Both good players for me, that is until we can afford players like Chelsea have. Yep, been saying that all season. Stoke fans want Champagne and Caviar on a Coca-Cola and Hob nobs budget. They want crosses but no RB's forward of the midfield... When we get a goal against it's always the RB this season. Look at today, PO's fault clearly, pundits everyone knows it but BAM, oatcakers slag Geoff who was in his postion... What Mr. Geoff has done for us all season is heavily under appreciated as is anyone on any given day. I have him on my signature to spite the! Look at Crouch or anyone else who has been massively under-appreciated. Feel like an outcast for trying to give praise at times where there is none on here. Muni especially, (my favorite player) gets not one mention hours after the match in which he was amazing. I had to start a thread it Pissed me right off. You must be new to the Oatcake? Anywho your clearly American and that's a -1 against you on here, good luck. I moved there and look at the treatment..
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:04:11 GMT
Post by Olgrligm on Apr 6, 2014 0:04:11 GMT
But you want your rb to get forward to make crosses from the wing, overlap, etc. So being there isn't the problem, although that is a criticism of Cameron very often is that he is too advanced. Wilko getting forward is not the problem, IF he is supporting or leading the attack. Moving into the middle can pay off like the fourth goal against Villa, but it means that Geoff is leaving his position. It's a shame Wilko conceded the peno, and that Cameron continues to be blamed for everything. Both good players for me, that is until we can afford players like Chelsea have. Yep, been saying that all season. Stoke fans want Champagne and Caviar on a Coca-Cola and Hob nobs budget. They want crosses but no RB's forward of the midfield... When we get a goal against it's always the RB this season. Look at today, PO's fault clearly, pundits everyone knows it but BAM, oatcakers slag Geoff who was in his postion... What Mr. Geoff has done for us all season is heavily under appreciated as is anyone on any given day. I have him on my signature to spite the! Look at Crouch or anyone else who has been massively under-appreciated. Feel like an outcast for trying to give praise at times where there is none on here. Muni especially, (my favorite player) gets not one mention hours after the match in which he was amazing. I had to start a thread it Pissed me right off. You must be new to the Oatcake? Anywho your clearly American and that's a -1 against you on here, good luck. I moved there and look at the treatment.. Nobody's blaming him for the first! It was entirely Odemwingie and Palacios!
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 6, 2014 0:06:06 GMT
But you want your rb to get forward to make crosses from the wing, overlap, etc. So being there isn't the problem, although that is a criticism of Cameron very often is that he is too advanced. Wilko getting forward is not the problem, IF he is supporting or leading the attack. Moving into the middle can pay off like the fourth goal against Villa, but it means that Geoff is leaving his position. It's a shame Wilko conceded the peno, and that Cameron continues to be blamed for everything. Both good players for me, that is until we can afford players like Chelsea have. Yep, been saying that all season. Stoke fans want Champagne and Caviar on a Coca-Cola and Hob nobs budget. They want crosses but no RB's forward of the midfield... When we get a goal against it's always the RB this season. Look at today, PO's fault clearly, pundits everyone knows it but BAM, oatcakers slag Geoff who was in his postion... What Mr. Geoff has done for us all season is heavily under appreciated as is anyone on any given day. I have him on my signature to spite the! Look at Crouch or anyone else who has been massively under-appreciated. Feel like an outcast for trying to give praise at times where there is none on here. Muni especially, (my favorite player) gets not one mention hours after the match in which he was amazing. I had to start a thread it Pissed me right off. You must be new to the Oatcake? Anywho your clearly American and that's a -1 against you on here, good luck. I moved there and look at the treatment.. If it's only -1 I'll take it.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:06:20 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 6, 2014 0:06:20 GMT
Yep, been saying that all season. Stoke fans want Champagne and Caviar on a Coca-Cola and Hob nobs budget. They want crosses but no RB's forward of the midfield... When we get a goal against it's always the RB this season. Look at today, PO's fault clearly, pundits everyone knows it but BAM, oatcakers slag Geoff who was in his postion... What Mr. Geoff has done for us all season is heavily under appreciated as is anyone on any given day. I have him on my signature to spite the! Look at Crouch or anyone else who has been massively under-appreciated. Feel like an outcast for trying to give praise at times where there is none on here. Muni especially, (my favorite player) gets not one mention hours after the match in which he was amazing. I had to start a thread it Pissed me right off. You must be new to the Oatcake? Anywho your clearly American and that's a -1 against you on here, good luck. I moved there and look at the treatment.. Nobody's blaming him for the first! It was entirely Odemwingie and Palacios! Bullshit, go read today's match thread and get back here.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:10:26 GMT
Post by Olgrligm on Apr 6, 2014 0:10:26 GMT
Nobody's blaming him for the first! It was entirely Odemwingie and Palacios! Bullshit, go read today's match thread and get back here. Oops, you're right - there is one post seriously suggesting he was culpable, right in the middle of lots of posts blaming Odemwingie.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:12:04 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 6, 2014 0:12:04 GMT
Bullshit, go read today's match thread and get back here. Oops, you're right - there is one post seriously suggesting he was culpable, right in the middle of lots of posts blaming Odemwingie. Seconds after the goal, clearly was PO but Wham. Right there. Blame Geoff. All season. Truth. "Must of been geoffs fault." is one of the gems.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:12:31 GMT
Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 6, 2014 0:12:31 GMT
Walters is worse at crossing than Cameron so that isn't a surprise. And I am almost certain stats keep him in a job. Well if they do we must have a preference for players with bad pass completion %, ones that commit lots of fouls, and have a very poor goals per appearance ratio. The only response to that is................no shit sherlock!
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:13:37 GMT
Post by Olgrligm on Apr 6, 2014 0:13:37 GMT
Oops, you're right - there is one post seriously suggesting he was culpable, right in the middle of lots of posts blaming Odemwingie. Seconds after the goal, clearly was PO but Wham. Right there. Blame Geoff. All season. Truth. "Must of been geoffs fault." is one of the gems. He was being sarcastic, which the relevant poster then confirmed in a post on the following page.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:16:45 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 6, 2014 0:16:45 GMT
Seconds after the goal, clearly was PO but Wham. Right there. Blame Geoff. All season. Truth. "Must of been geoffs fault." is one of the gems. He was being sarcastic, which the relevant poster then confirmed in a post on the following page. Is it really sarcastic or is it to the point of begrudging? Poor lad does his best for the club and has a pretty good season as a stand in. Hell most thought he'd never start! This guy is the only one with any sense there. Arnie, Odemwingie, Geoff and Pieters all having a bad day. If Walters had left his man run forward like Arnie did for the goal he would of been crucified. The warning signs were already there he's left Ivanovic twice already. I rest my Case.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:23:21 GMT
Post by Olgrligm on Apr 6, 2014 0:23:21 GMT
He was being sarcastic, which the relevant poster then confirmed in a post on the following page. Is it really sarcastic or is it to the point of begrudging? Poor lad does his best for the club and has a pretty good season as a stand in. Hell most thought he'd never start! This guy is the only one with any sense there. Arnie, Odemwingie, Geoff and Pieters all having a bad day. If Walters had left his man run forward like Arnie did for the goal he would of been crucified. The warning signs were already there he's left Ivanovic twice already. I rest my Case. I have no idea what that quote has to do with your case, but I happen to agree with what he says. In the first half, we looked very weak down both flanks. The cover from the wide players was very poor and both Cameron and Pieters looked all at sea. They made great strides down there and it was inevitable that the breakthrough would come down one of the wide positions. As it happened, Odemwingie got done too easily and Pieters stepped way off his man.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:28:29 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 6, 2014 0:28:29 GMT
Is it really sarcastic or is it to the point of begrudging? Poor lad does his best for the club and has a pretty good season as a stand in. Hell most thought he'd never start! This guy is the only one with any sense there. I rest my Case. I have no idea what that quote has to do with your case, but I happen to agree with what he says. In the first half, we looked very weak down both flanks. The cover from the wide players was very poor and both Cameron and Pieters looked all at sea. They made great strides down there and it was inevitable that the breakthrough would come down one of the wide positions. As it happened, Odemwingie got done too easily and Pieters stepped way off his man. It sums up our plight today the edges on both sides were terrible and the fact if it had been someone else being lazy besides arnie, let the slagging commense. But because the goal was disallowed "all was forgotten." The same treatment with PO for me today. His recent greatness left other's to pass the blame all to easily I am afraid. He was just as culpable and terrible first half as most where yet because of our lack of depth or Managers "tactics" he was left on.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:36:37 GMT
Post by partickpotter on Apr 6, 2014 0:36:37 GMT
Yep, been saying that all season. Stoke fans want Champagne and Caviar on a Coca-Cola and Hob nobs budget. They want crosses but no RB's forward of the midfield... When we get a goal against it's always the RB this season. Look at today, PO's fault clearly, pundits everyone knows it but BAM, oatcakers slag Geoff who was in his postion... What Mr. Geoff has done for us all season is heavily under appreciated as is anyone on any given day. I have him on my signature to spite the! Look at Crouch or anyone else who has been massively under-appreciated. Feel like an outcast for trying to give praise at times where there is none on here. Muni especially, (my favorite player) gets not one mention hours after the match in which he was amazing. I had to start a thread it Pissed me right off. You must be new to the Oatcake? Anywho your clearly American and that's a -1 against you on here, good luck. I moved there and look at the treatment.. Nobody's blaming him for the first! It was entirely Odemwingie and Palacios! And Pieters!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 0:36:37 GMT
Haven't read the 7 pages of this debate but Wilko gives 110 percent each and every time....guaranteed.
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Post by stokerstayinup on Apr 6, 2014 0:52:35 GMT
I have to admit,I'm one of those fans who wants Wilko to succeed more than any other player because he's a Stokie. Having said that,I don't know what's more embarassing,a 7 page thread slagging off one of our own,who always gives 100% or those still suggesting that he's better than Cameron.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 0:58:40 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 6, 2014 0:58:40 GMT
Haven't read the 7 pages of this debate but Wilko gives 110 percent each and every time....guaranteed. That was never doubted.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 2:49:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 2:49:28 GMT
I'm sure when he gets back in the changing room the lads will bollock him After bollocking themselves.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 4:54:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Apr 6, 2014 4:54:59 GMT
If it's all the same to everyone on here, I'll judge him on five years of consistently good performances for us, rather than 45 minutes against Chelsea after months without playing. Ridiculous overreaction on here, especially after the year of garbage dished up by the American Danny Collins. This
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 5:00:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Apr 6, 2014 5:00:55 GMT
I don't know where I see Wilko going. I think the fact that he is a local lad has made a lot of people think more of him. I honestly think he'd look out of place at a league 1 side. Absolute bollox
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Post by mrpickles on Apr 6, 2014 6:07:25 GMT
Geoff doesn't get close enough to give penalties away (first half incident aside). He's normally in the middle waiting for the cross he's supposed to be stopping Now your just saying generalities and have no substance in your arguement like most on here... Like "Wilko is the better defender." Next. Damn it!! I knew I should have backed it up with the heat map Wilko IS the better defender. That doesn't make him the right option, or even a good one, but he knows how to defend at full back better than Geoff Cameron.
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Post by mrpickles on Apr 6, 2014 6:23:37 GMT
No offence mate, but you Yanks concentrate way too much on stats. Geoff was out of position so much in the first half that even the usually (too) placid Marc Wilson was bollocking him, to go with his usual telling off from Ryan. I said to the old man at half time, I expect Wilko to have a dodgy second half, but at least he'll do it playing at right back, rather than wherever the fuck he wants to be. Whether it was the right decision or not, I'm glad Hughes made the substitution he did, as we'd have been no worse off, and more importantly, it's utterly convinced me that he knows we have a major problem on that side of the defence. I take offense to the first sentence. It seems like you are saying that all yanks are inherently inferior at judging talent when it comes to football, and that stats should take a backseat to anecdotal evidence? I could be wrong, but I don't really like that statement because I don't want my statements dismissed simply because of where I was born. With regards to the stats issue, The Law of Averages proves that stats are accurate for assessing possible outcomes. Anecdotal evidence, on the other hand, will always contain some bias, and is likely to result in cherry-picking. The problem with statistics is when they are miscalculated, or used to confirm a bias, which I think is what you are really trying to get at? That the stats yanks use on here are confirming a bias in the belief that Cameron is not wank. A very fair claim to make IMO. That being said, I also believe that player ratings are a not a reliable stat to use when comparing Cameron to any other player today (yesterday now for you) because his rating is inflated from being taken off at half-time BEFORE two more goals were scored by Chelsea. If Stoke would have scored Cameron's rating would have been much lower than the others for the same reason. You can't take offence, because I said 'no offence' I wasn't trying to come across as superior, and I don't dismiss people's claims because of where they're from, I'm just stating an observation. Americans seem (imo) to place too much emphasis on statistics, just like we English often place hard work over ability. There are stats that matter for sure, but I've had charts and numbers with decimal places chucked at me to 'back up' why Cameron didn't play poorly in the first half yesterday, when he quite clearly did.
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 7:10:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by sportsman on Apr 6, 2014 7:10:36 GMT
So giving 110 percent makes things ok?
I don't even want see wilko in a Stoke shirt on holiday never mind anywhere near the pitch. Said it for years. Not even championship standard.
Its not hughes offering the 1 year deal. Its coates to show a local can make it. Shocking
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 8:38:58 GMT
Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 6, 2014 8:38:58 GMT
I take offense to the first sentence. It seems like you are saying that all yanks are inherently inferior at judging talent when it comes to football, and that stats should take a backseat to anecdotal evidence? I could be wrong, but I don't really like that statement because I don't want my statements dismissed simply because of where I was born. With regards to the stats issue, The Law of Averages proves that stats are accurate for assessing possible outcomes. Anecdotal evidence, on the other hand, will always contain some bias, and is likely to result in cherry-picking. The problem with statistics is when they are miscalculated, or used to confirm a bias, which I think is what you are really trying to get at? That the stats yanks use on here are confirming a bias in the belief that Cameron is not wank. A very fair claim to make IMO. That being said, I also believe that player ratings are a not a reliable stat to use when comparing Cameron to any other player today (yesterday now for you) because his rating is inflated from being taken off at half-time BEFORE two more goals were scored by Chelsea. If Stoke would have scored Cameron's rating would have been much lower than the others for the same reason. You can't take offence, because I said 'no offence' I wasn't trying to come across as superior, and I don't dismiss people's claims because of where they're from, I'm just stating an observation. Americans seem (imo) to place too much emphasis on statistics, just like we English often place hard work over ability. There are stats that matter for sure, but I've had charts and numbers with decimal places chucked at me to 'back up' why Cameron didn't play poorly in the first half yesterday, when he quite clearly did. Fair enough. None taken then. But I know quite a few Americans, and my observation is that stats are about as popular as "soccer". For example, over here most people believe that citizens with guns will actually prevent crimes, despite plenty of statistics that show a strong correlation between gun violence and gun ownership. That stat is used by both sides of the gun control debate as confirmation as to why their side is the correct one. But, the stat itself is not a lie, more gun owners means it is more likely that a person will be killed by a gun. People arguing on internet message boards are not an entirely different subset though, because many of us post opinions and then try to 1.)use stats to justify the opinion, or 2.)say stats don't matter to justify the opinion. I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't hate the stats, hate the way people try to use them to confirm bias. And I'm pretty sure that's what you are getting at when you say "too much emphasis..."?
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Wilko
Apr 6, 2014 8:43:07 GMT
Post by scfcno1fan on Apr 6, 2014 8:43:07 GMT
I don't know where I see Wilko going. I think the fact that he is a local lad has made a lot of people think more of him. I honestly think he'd look out of place at a league 1 side. Absolute bollox So he would get into a Championship side? Maybe a Doncaster or a Barnsley perhaps. I don't think he would get in at the top 3 in League 1, that's for sure.
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