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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 22:49:00 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 22:49:00 GMT
Right, so Wilkinson at RW isn't shown more than RB. Doesn't matter where anyone else is. That's wilko there mate. There's stats and truths, watch the game again Wilkinson is in fact forward more than he's at RB. For their two goals Second half he's chasing the play from RW. Say what you like, but that was the truth. I don't care what you saw. Because well it's obviously not even close. Come on mate, you're getting all uppity, about someone not rating Geoff again The sad fact is, both right backs were shite. It's just that the one who started the game has been shite for a while now. All I'm doing is stating the importance that needs to be placed on getting one in the summer, and have pointed out both player's flaws to highlight it. It needs be priority number 1. I'm not getting upity, but the facts are the facts. Wilko was immensely out of position more than geoff. Fact. I'd say that sub backfired. Is a good term. Yes they were both shite. But one is just more so today proved he shouldn't be anywhere near Stoke next season and that was Wilko. Rested he still wasn't anywhere near good enough. Atleast Geoff can give us cover for an entire season without getting injured or stonewall penos 10 minutes after a sub. Sorry but Wilko is Gash and out of his league in the Prem.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 22:50:13 GMT
Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 5, 2014 22:50:13 GMT
If Wilko is the answer I don't know what the question is. I do. Who came on at half time as sub for Geoff Cameron in the game at Chelsea today?
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 22:53:30 GMT
Post by MadMarko10 on Apr 5, 2014 22:53:30 GMT
At least he isn't a steroided up shower of cuntery hiding behind a computer eh? Leave him alone he has come a long way, for a strategically shaven gorilla to have progressed to the level where he is able to type and string words together is fuckin amazing in my book, Davis Attenborough would be amazed and so proud of this development. This has made my evening Carps
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Post by GallysGuitar on Apr 5, 2014 22:55:20 GMT
Stafford gets so much stick for his Pulis-motivated mutterings but mystical is just as bad if not worse.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 22:57:03 GMT
Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 5, 2014 22:57:03 GMT
I love Wilko but when the story about his 1 year contract extension came out I was amazed tbh. I just don't get it with what Hughes is trying to do.
We need 2 new right backs.
Cameron is dreadful and Wilko needs to be playing every week to be of use. And in that role he offers nothing really going forward so it's a no go.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 22:57:20 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 22:57:20 GMT
So being slow, out of position and unable to get back on defense and giving a stonewall peno is what you need to do to get a start? Rather have our makeshift RB start with more help from the wing. I massively prefer it to not having a clue how to defend the far post, wandering off out of position, letting opponents past far too easily, misplacing five yard passes, blasting every cross as hard as possible, giving away goal after goal every week and bring back memories of Danny Collins, because that's what you get with Geoff Cameron. One mistake, which is just about the only mistake I can recall him making in the last three years when at right back, does not mean that he should be completely written off. Way too much of a knee-jerk reaction. So to answer your statement, with a question. Having Geoff at RB in a position he's not a natural at this entire historic season has been a "fluke" because the football GOD that is Mr. Wilko with his only attempt at a cross that hit Fulham today and his subsequent giving of a stonewall peno because he's slow and unable to catch the wind just a few minutes into the second half? Mind you who has been "rested" for three years because he can't break into a team with the amazing attributes he has that you clearly see versus what you've stated above that Cameron lacks has given you hope? Come off it. Your more mental than I thought Mysitcal, stay off the acid. He'll be at Port Vale this August. He's Past it. Clearly. Not good enough to be cover! let alone start.
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Post by mrpickles on Apr 5, 2014 22:59:51 GMT
Come on mate, you're getting all uppity, about someone not rating Geoff again The sad fact is, both right backs were shite. It's just that the one who started the game has been shite for a while now. All I'm doing is stating the importance that needs to be placed on getting one in the summer, and have pointed out both player's flaws to highlight it. It needs be priority number 1. I'm not getting upity, but the facts are the facts. Wilko was immensely out of position more than geoff. Fact. I'd say that sub backfired. Is a good term. Yes they were both shite. But one is just more so today proved he shouldn't be anywhere near Stoke next season and that was Wilko. Rested he still wasn't anywhere near good enough. Atleast Geoff can give us cover for an entire season without getting injured or stonewall penos 10 minutes after a sub. Sorry but Wilko is Gash and out of his league in the Prem. Geoff doesn't get close enough to give penalties away (first half incident aside). He's normally in the middle waiting for the cross he's supposed to be stopping
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:01:06 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 23:01:06 GMT
I'm not getting upity, but the facts are the facts. Wilko was immensely out of position more than geoff. Fact. I'd say that sub backfired. Is a good term. Yes they were both shite. But one is just more so today proved he shouldn't be anywhere near Stoke next season and that was Wilko. Rested he still wasn't anywhere near good enough. Atleast Geoff can give us cover for an entire season without getting injured or stonewall penos 10 minutes after a sub. Sorry but Wilko is Gash and out of his league in the Prem. Geoff doesn't get close enough to give penalties away (first half incident aside). He's normally in the middle waiting for the cross he's supposed to be stopping Now your just saying generalities and have no substance in your arguement like most on here... Like "Wilko is the better defender." Next.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:01:28 GMT
Post by prem4stoke on Apr 5, 2014 23:01:28 GMT
If Wilko is the answer I don't know what the question is. I do. Who came on at half time as sub for Geoff Cameron in the game at Chelsea today? That is a good one It wasn't however one of any which relates to football ability.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:03:31 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 23:03:31 GMT
I do. Who came on at half time as sub for Geoff Cameron in the game at Chelsea today? That is a good one It wasn't however one of any which relates to football ability. OOOOOoooooo
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:04:03 GMT
Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 5, 2014 23:04:03 GMT
I do. Who came on at half time as sub for Geoff Cameron in the game at Chelsea today? That is a good one It wasn't however one of any which relates to football ability. Ah. You need to be more precise with your questions when pedants are on the prowl
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:05:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by Kjones9 on Apr 5, 2014 23:05:50 GMT
I do. Who came on at half time as sub for Geoff Cameron in the game at Chelsea today? That is a good one It wasn't however one of any which relates to football ability. What about who isn't the answer to our right back problems?
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:06:55 GMT
Post by Olgrligm on Apr 5, 2014 23:06:55 GMT
I massively prefer it to not having a clue how to defend the far post, wandering off out of position, letting opponents past far too easily, misplacing five yard passes, blasting every cross as hard as possible, giving away goal after goal every week and bring back memories of Danny Collins, because that's what you get with Geoff Cameron. One mistake, which is just about the only mistake I can recall him making in the last three years when at right back, does not mean that he should be completely written off. Way too much of a knee-jerk reaction. So to answer your statement, with a question. Having Geoff at RB in a position he's not a natural at this entire historic season has been a "fluke" because the football GOD that is Mr. Wilko with his only attempt at a cross that hit Fulham today and his subsequent giving of a stonewall peno because he's slow and unable to catch the wind just a few minutes into the second half? Mind you who has been "rested" for three years because he can't break into a team with the amazing attributes he has that you clearly see versus what you've stated above that Cameron lacks has given you hope? Come off it. Your more mental than I thought Mysitcal, stay off the acid. He'll be at Port Vale this August. He's Past it. Clearly. Not good enough to be cover! let alone start. I think you may be allowing a love of Cameron (sentiment for the best of our Americans?) to make you a bit overly dismissive of Wilkinson. I'm not quite sure what your question is, but just because some of Cameron's deficiencies can be put down to him playing out of position, it doesn't mean that he can be completely excused and allowed to play at right back and give away goals every week. I think we'd best leave it here, it doesn't look very much like we're going to agree and we seem to be going around in circles.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:09:38 GMT
Post by Olgrligm on Apr 5, 2014 23:09:38 GMT
Stafford gets so much stick for his Pulis-motivated mutterings but mystical is just as bad if not worse. Because I'm criticising Cameron, who he brought to the club and played for most of last season, and arguing the case for Wilkinson, who he quite often dropped before reluctantly restoring him to the team? I'm not sure how you've reached that quite strange conclusion.
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Post by GallysGuitar on Apr 5, 2014 23:09:40 GMT
Anyone who thinks Wilko is a better option is stuck in the dark ages. Excelling as a full-back in this league is all about being comfortable on the ball.
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Post by GallysGuitar on Apr 5, 2014 23:09:47 GMT
Anyone who thinks Wilko is a better option is stuck in the dark ages. Excelling as a full-back in this league is all about being comfortable on the ball.
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Post by GallysGuitar on Apr 5, 2014 23:10:09 GMT
Anyone who thinks Wilko is a better option is stuck in the dark ages. Excelling as a full-back in this league is all about being comfortable on the ball.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:10:20 GMT
Post by prem4stoke on Apr 5, 2014 23:10:20 GMT
That is a good one It wasn't however one of any which relates to football ability. What about who isn't the answer to our right back problems? David Cameron could be a good answer to that one
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:13:12 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 23:13:12 GMT
So to answer your statement, with a question. Having Geoff at RB in a position he's not a natural at this entire historic season has been a "fluke" because the football GOD that is Mr. Wilko with his only attempt at a cross that hit Fulham today and his subsequent giving of a stonewall peno because he's slow and unable to catch the wind just a few minutes into the second half? Mind you who has been "rested" for three years because he can't break into a team with the amazing attributes he has that you clearly see versus what you've stated above that Cameron lacks has given you hope? Come off it. Your more mental than I thought Mysitcal, stay off the acid. He'll be at Port Vale this August. He's Past it. Clearly. Not good enough to be cover! let alone start. I think you may be allowing a love of Cameron (sentiment for the best of our Americans?) to make you a bit overly dismissive of Wilkinson. I'm not quite sure what your question is, but just because some of Cameron's deficiencies can be put down to him playing out of position, it doesn't mean that he can be completely excused and allowed to play at right back and give away goals every week. I think we'd best leave it here, it doesn't look very much like we're going to agree and we seem to be going around in circles. So my unrelenting love for queen and country means a clogger should still be at Stoke? Sorry. Don't get your patriotism arguement? Is this some pulis era love that still comes from your nether region when Wilko is called up? Because as a natural "RB" He's gash mate, not good enough for the Prem. Today proved that. Sorry to be crude and burst your "mystical descent" or whatever but that's the truth. Geoffs not any better but he's a stand in mate... You don't have to be a Yank to see the difference in "ability." To which I am in name only. I am stoke.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:15:09 GMT
Post by Olgrligm on Apr 5, 2014 23:15:09 GMT
I think you may be allowing a love of Cameron (sentiment for the best of our Americans?) to make you a bit overly dismissive of Wilkinson. I'm not quite sure what your question is, but just because some of Cameron's deficiencies can be put down to him playing out of position, it doesn't mean that he can be completely excused and allowed to play at right back and give away goals every week. I think we'd best leave it here, it doesn't look very much like we're going to agree and we seem to be going around in circles. So my unrelenting love for queen and country means a clogger should still be at Stoke? Sorry. Don't get your patriotism arguement? Is this some pulis era love that still comes from your nether region when Wilko is called up? Because as a natural "RB" He's gash mate, not good enough for the Prem. Today proved that. Sorry to be crude and burst your "mystical descent" or whatever but that's the truth. Geoffs not any better but he's a stand in mate... You don't have to be a Yank to see the difference in "ability." See above post RE: Pulis.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:15:14 GMT
Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 5, 2014 23:15:14 GMT
Anyone who thinks Wilko is a better option is stuck in the dark ages. Excelling as a full-back in this league is all about being comfortable on the ball. Cameron is terrible on the ball....... So is Wilko but I'll never laud him as a footballer!
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:20:28 GMT
Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 5, 2014 23:20:28 GMT
Geoff didn't have a terrible first half, we wasn't good or bad we was sub-par had a (6.2) from opta. But he did have more tackles, clearances and interceptions in the first half than Pieters who was having a mare on the opposite side did the whole game. He's normally a rock. But he normally has help.(got a 5.8) Thus Geoff had a better final rating. He was a first half "Scapegoat" for PO who wasn't tracking or marking on the edge leaving gaps. He was lazily defending on the throw in and didn't stop the cross for their first goal. If anything MH made a bad decision of subbing Geoff for Wilko who is out of his depth vs Chelsea and is the second half "Scapegoat." How is Wilko better to guard Eden Hazard than Geoff? how? By breaking his leg by tackling? That's right soon as we subbed Geoff they had free reign with Wilko out of position chasing the game and unable to get back with the speed of a lorry in a porsche race. It's Elementary and worrying from Hughes. By Hughes not subbing in Walters for PO or Arnie to help defend on either of the wings and be physical by not letting crosses in from the edge of the penalty box all match and not be a selfish twat who wouldn't pass to free up movement all game was worrying. Arnie, sadly gave Erik no help. Arnie had the worst game in a long while in a Stoke kit and was moping most of it. Erik was left alone just like Wilko. Soon as they got closed down our wingers they started moping and showboating instead of just passing it to safety. Yet no mention of how shit they were because they are flashy. Po 6.7 Pieters 5.7 Arnie 5.9 Cameron 6.2 Wilko 5.5 No offence mate, but you Yanks concentrate way too much on stats. Geoff was out of position so much in the first half that even the usually (too) placid Marc Wilson was bollocking him, to go with his usual telling off from Ryan. I said to the old man at half time, I expect Wilko to have a dodgy second half, but at least he'll do it playing at right back, rather than wherever the fuck he wants to be. Whether it was the right decision or not, I'm glad Hughes made the substitution he did, as we'd have been no worse off, and more importantly, it's utterly convinced me that he knows we have a major problem on that side of the defence. I take offense to the first sentence. It seems like you are saying that all yanks are inherently inferior at judging talent when it comes to football, and that stats should take a backseat to anecdotal evidence? I could be wrong, but I don't really like that statement because I don't want my statements dismissed simply because of where I was born. With regards to the stats issue, The Law of Averages proves that stats are accurate for assessing possible outcomes. Anecdotal evidence, on the other hand, will always contain some bias, and is likely to result in cherry-picking. The problem with statistics is when they are miscalculated, or used to confirm a bias, which I think is what you are really trying to get at? That the stats yanks use on here are confirming a bias in the belief that Cameron is not wank. A very fair claim to make IMO. That being said, I also believe that player ratings are a not a reliable stat to use when comparing Cameron to any other player today (yesterday now for you) because his rating is inflated from being taken off at half-time BEFORE two more goals were scored by Chelsea. If Stoke would have scored Cameron's rating would have been much lower than the others for the same reason.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:31:23 GMT
Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 5, 2014 23:31:23 GMT
Stats should definitely take a backseat, that goes without question. When stats back the anecdotal evidence that's just ace. There's no start for being out of position, skinned, turned or being the wrong side of a man. Things that make Cameron a poor full back. I'd love to see his crossing stats though!
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:36:32 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 23:36:32 GMT
No offence mate, but you Yanks concentrate way too much on stats. Geoff was out of position so much in the first half that even the usually (too) placid Marc Wilson was bollocking him, to go with his usual telling off from Ryan. I said to the old man at half time, I expect Wilko to have a dodgy second half, but at least he'll do it playing at right back, rather than wherever the fuck he wants to be. Whether it was the right decision or not, I'm glad Hughes made the substitution he did, as we'd have been no worse off, and more importantly, it's utterly convinced me that he knows we have a major problem on that side of the defence. I take offense to the first sentence. It seems like you are saying that all yanks are inherently inferior at judging talent when it comes to football, and that stats should take a backseat to anecdotal evidence? I could be wrong, but I don't really like that statement because I don't want my statements dismissed simply because of where I was born. With regards to the stats issue, The Law of Averages proves that stats are accurate for assessing possible outcomes. Anecdotal evidence, on the other hand, will always contain some bias, and is likely to result in cherry-picking. The problem with statistics is when they are miscalculated, or used to confirm a bias, which I think is what you are really trying to get at? That the stats yanks use on here are confirming a bias in the belief that Cameron is not wank. A very fair claim to make IMO. That being said, I also believe that player ratings are a not a reliable stat to use when comparing Cameron to any other player today (yesterday now for you) because his rating is inflated from being taken off at half-time BEFORE two more goals were scored by Chelsea. If Stoke would have scored Cameron's rating would have been much lower than the others for the same reason. I've been telling this for years, I moved to the U.S. at (30) from Stoke and chose the name I have because well at that time I was one of a few regular posters in the US timezone. To be honest most Americans or "Yanks" as the UK posters like to say didn't 1.) know of Stoke or where it was on a map and 2.) had no Idea about the Premier league besides the big 4 pre-promotion. Whether you came here post promotion from US signings or American players or bcause of the media blitz from America or where have you they're location shouldn't have any merit on one's opinion because in fact most here as I remember said Geoff would never start for Stoke let alone the entire season for us in a stand in position in one of our most historical seasons ever. Thinking to my self, Ohh how them wacky yanks who I listened to were right! but in the same sense how did most of stoke think Wilko should start? But to your evidence... In that sense he played one half and so did Wilko mind you. The Second. One had a better half the other, not so much and It's plain as day who had the worst...
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:37:05 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 23:37:05 GMT
Stats should definitely take a backseat, that goes without question. When stats back the anecdotal evidence that's just ace. There's no start for being out of position, skinned, turned or being the wrong side of a man. Things that make Cameron a poor full back. I'd love to see his crossing stats though! They're shite! But Wilko's well lets not even go there.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:38:45 GMT
Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 5, 2014 23:38:45 GMT
Come on mate, you're getting all uppity, about someone not rating Geoff again The sad fact is, both right backs were shite. It's just that the one who started the game has been shite for a while now. All I'm doing is stating the importance that needs to be placed on getting one in the summer, and have pointed out both player's flaws to highlight it. It needs be priority number 1. I'm not getting upity, but the facts are the facts. Wilko was immensely out of position more than geoff. Fact. I'd say that sub backfired. Is a good term. Yes they were both shite. But one is just more so today proved he shouldn't be anywhere near Stoke next season and that was Wilko. Rested he still wasn't anywhere near good enough. Atleast Geoff can give us cover for an entire season without getting injured or stonewall penos 10 minutes after a sub. Sorry but Wilko is Gash and out of his league in the Prem. Wilko is good enough to be a back-up, and he wasn't out of position more than Geoff. As a rb the player should be moving along the right flank, which his heat-map shows. Geoff's spreads more into the central areas which means he was out of position more, and knowing where the other players and the ball were at the time are going to give a clearer picture. I feel bad for Geoff and Andy. Chelsea away defending with a team that can't string together more than 3 passes is always going to be a bad day for fullbacks.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:42:30 GMT
Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 5, 2014 23:42:30 GMT
Stats should definitely take a backseat, that goes without question. When stats back the anecdotal evidence that's just ace. There's no start for being out of position, skinned, turned or being the wrong side of a man. Things that make Cameron a poor full back. I'd love to see his crossing stats though! Bullsht. Look it up. There are stats for all of those things, they just have to be collected. I've seen plenty of Cameron's crossing stats, let's just say they are not great.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:45:27 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 23:45:27 GMT
I'm not getting upity, but the facts are the facts. Wilko was immensely out of position more than geoff. Fact. I'd say that sub backfired. Is a good term. Yes they were both shite. But one is just more so today proved he shouldn't be anywhere near Stoke next season and that was Wilko. Rested he still wasn't anywhere near good enough. Atleast Geoff can give us cover for an entire season without getting injured or stonewall penos 10 minutes after a sub. Sorry but Wilko is Gash and out of his league in the Prem. Wilko is good enough to be a back-up, and he wasn't out of position more than Geoff. As a rb the player should be moving along the right flank, which his heat-map shows. Geoff's spreads more into the central areas which means he was out of position more, and knowing where the other players and the ball were at the time are going to give a clearer picture. I feel bad for Geoff and Andy. Chelsea away defending with a team that can't string together more than 3 passes is always going to be a bad day for fullbacks. The heat maps show Wilko more forward and on the wing for most of the second half and Geoff in our third more...
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:46:28 GMT
Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 5, 2014 23:46:28 GMT
Stats should definitely take a backseat, that goes without question. When stats back the anecdotal evidence that's just ace. There's no start for being out of position, skinned, turned or being the wrong side of a man. Things that make Cameron a poor full back. I'd love to see his crossing stats though! Bullsht. Look it up. There are stats for all of those things, they just have to be collected. I've seen plenty of Cameron's crossing stats, let's just say they are not great. Pickles is right, You American do base too much on stats. Stats are what keeps Jon Walters in a job I guess. Therefore stats should be treated with contempt.
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Wilko
Apr 5, 2014 23:47:08 GMT
Post by stokemanusa on Apr 5, 2014 23:47:08 GMT
Bullsht. Look it up. There are stats for all of those things, they just have to be collected. I've seen plenty of Cameron's crossing stats, let's just say they are not great. Pickles is right, You American do base too much on stats. Stats are what keeps Jon Walters in a job I guess. Therefore stats should be treated with contempt.
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