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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 20:57:07 GMT
We can't win diplomatic efforts with trade sanctions, so we have to either give in (not an option for me) or show some form of threat like I've said all along. By "we", I mean the Yanks! The Yanks, along with the rest of us, have got bases all throughout Europe, what difference does it make if an aircraft carrier gets sent a few miles closer? ...... And what if Russia then call your bluff & start a full scale invasion of Ukraine, or send their own ships to enage your aircraft carrier, what're you gonna do then? Given your logic so far I'll assume you'll want to launch a few nukes, that'll end well. It's poking them in the ribs and pissing them off, it's a direct presence, a visible threat. They wouldn't send their own ships, they're shit and an American carrier group would rout it. The invasion would be a possibility but I don't think they'd do it, they don't want that, they'd have done it already. It's just a big game of chess. I've never mentioned even firing a bullet, just mere threats, that's what the Russians are dealing in and no one is giving them a bit back. Putin needs poking a bit.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Mar 5, 2014 21:03:01 GMT
It's poking them in the ribs and pissing them off, it's a direct presence, a visible threat. They wouldn't send their own ships, they're shit and an American carrier group would rout it. The invasion would be a possibility but I don't think they'd do it, they don't want that, they'd have done it already. It's just a big game of chess. I've never mentioned even firing a bullet, just mere threats, that's what the Russians are dealing in and no one is giving them a bit back. Putin needs poking a bit. We're not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan here, they're not driving round in old banger Toyota's shouting Allah Akbar. We're talking about a massive military force with hundreds of thousands of troops, thousands of tanks, choppers & planes, hundreds of warships & missiles. Sending a carrier isn't going to stop them doing anything, it isn't fucking Hollywood, some 'hut hut' Marine with a red fucking tie round his head isn't going to take them all out. I'm sure that you're only joking with most of what you say, & I really hope that's the case, but a part of me is actually worried that you really believe what you're saying.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 21:08:09 GMT
It's poking them in the ribs and pissing them off, it's a direct presence, a visible threat. They wouldn't send their own ships, they're shit and an American carrier group would rout it. The invasion would be a possibility but I don't think they'd do it, they don't want that, they'd have done it already. It's just a big game of chess. I've never mentioned even firing a bullet, just mere threats, that's what the Russians are dealing in and no one is giving them a bit back. Putin needs poking a bit. We're not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan here, they're not driving round in old banger Toyota's shouting Allah Akbar. We're talking about a massive military force with hundreds of thousands of troops, thousands of tanks, choppers & planes, hundreds of warships & missiles. Sending a carrier isn't going to stop them doing anything, it isn't fucking Hollywood, some 'hut hut' Marine with a red fucking tie round his head isn't going to take them all out. I'm sure that you're only joking with most of what you say, & I really hope that's the case, but a part of me is actually worried that you really believe what you're saying. It's not far off though, they might be well trained but their equipment ie the ships aren't very good at all. And I aren't joking at all, I think they need some of their own medicine, I don't think it'd end in a war. Because Putin knows it's something he wouldn't win, they haven't got the equipment or allies. Diplomacy with the threat of sanctions isn't working so there's two options. Leave the Russians to play the bully or threat them. I say threat them, I think he'd back down somewhat. He's (Putin) not stupid and he knows a war is stupid but at the minute there's nothing stopping him from acting the twat. That needs to change.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Mar 5, 2014 21:14:09 GMT
It's not far off though, they might be well trained but their equipment ie the ships aren't very good at all. And I aren't joking at all, I think they need some of their own medicine, I don't think it'd end in a war. Because Putin knows it's something he wouldn't win, they haven't got the equipment or allies. Diplomacy with the threat of sanctions isn't working so there's two options. Leave the Russians to play the bully or threat them. I say threat them, I think he'd back down somewhat. He's (Putin) not stupid and he knows a war is stupid but at the minute there's nothing stopping him from acting the twat. That needs to change. You really think that if the Yanks turn up on Russia's doorstep with an aircraft carrier that Putin is gonna shit his pants & run home to mummy? What kind of message does that send out to the world about Russia's standing? What do the Yanks then do knowing that their biggest enemy is cowering in the corner, scared too death of them? What then happens to Ukraine? Are the Yanks gonna just sail back home & leave it be? or are they gonna whack in some great big military bases? How is a wounded Russia gonna react having just been humilitated infront of the entire world?
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Post by harryburrows on Mar 5, 2014 21:17:43 GMT
Putins done this before in Chechnya
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 21:17:48 GMT
It's not far off though, they might be well trained but their equipment ie the ships aren't very good at all. And I aren't joking at all, I think they need some of their own medicine, I don't think it'd end in a war. Because Putin knows it's something he wouldn't win, they haven't got the equipment or allies. Diplomacy with the threat of sanctions isn't working so there's two options. Leave the Russians to play the bully or threat them. I say threat them, I think he'd back down somewhat. He's (Putin) not stupid and he knows a war is stupid but at the minute there's nothing stopping him from acting the twat. That needs to change. You really think that if the Yanks turn up on Russia's doorstep with an aircraft carrier that Putin is gonna shit his pants & run home to mummy? What kind of message does that send out to the world about Russia's standing? What do the Yanks then do knowing that their biggest enemy is cowering in the corner, scared too death of them? What then happens to Ukraine? Are the Yanks gonna just sail back home & leave it be? or are they gonna whack in some great big military bases? How is a wounded Russia gonna react having just been humilitated infront of the entire world? I think he'd become more reasonable and that's what is needed for this whole thing to be sorted. No humiliation, I never said that, it's a threat, a threat to back up the diplomacy-like I've said all along. And it's a threat that I think would work because Putin knows he can't risk confrontation with the west, that's not running home to Mummy, that's just being a realist. Russia would get smashed. But I don't want a war, I just want the people of Ukraine to have free elections.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Mar 5, 2014 21:23:03 GMT
I think he'd become more reasonable and that's what is needed for this whole thing to be sorted. No humiliation, I never said that, it's a threat, a threat to back up the diplomacy-like I've said all along. And it's a threat that I think would work because Putin knows he can't risk confrontation with the west, that's not running home to Mummy, that's just being a realist. Russia would get smashed. But I don't want a war, I just want the people of Ukraine to have free elections. The Russian's have got pretty much their entire armed forces sat along the boarder, meanwhile the Yanks (And ourselves) are too caught up in invading half the rest of the world. Russia 'backing down' now would be a huge humiliation. ...... And I'm not fully up-to-speed on the capabilities of the worlds armies (Perhaps people like Salop can enlighten me) But I'd be massive surprised if the Russian war machine is this pathetic, two-bob outfit you're making them out to be. I think you are hugely under-estimating them. (And don't they also have the backing of China?..... Or I'm guessing they almost certainly would have if the Yanks turn up)
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 21:31:06 GMT
I think he'd become more reasonable and that's what is needed for this whole thing to be sorted. No humiliation, I never said that, it's a threat, a threat to back up the diplomacy-like I've said all along. And it's a threat that I think would work because Putin knows he can't risk confrontation with the west, that's not running home to Mummy, that's just being a realist. Russia would get smashed. But I don't want a war, I just want the people of Ukraine to have free elections. The Russian's have got pretty much their entire armed forces sat along the boarder, meanwhile the Yanks (And ourselves) are too caught up in invading half the rest of the world. Russia 'backing down' now would be a huge humiliation. ...... And I'm not fully up-to-speed on the capabilities of the worlds armies (Perhaps people like Salop can enlighten me) But I'd be massive surprised if the Russian war machine is this pathetic, two-bob outfit you're making them out to be. I think you are hugely under-estimating them. (And don't they also have the backing of China?..... Or I'm guessing they almost certainly would have if the Yanks turn up) And they are there threatening, I don't think Putin wants to use them but they're there doing a job simply by being there. Which is exactly my point! Not two bit but the Yanks just have better technology, more allies and more at their disposal. I think in military circles, it's a given that if a war was to happen between the west and Russia, there should only one winner. I stand to be corrected though! And no they don't. China have said they don't think anyone should get involved with anyone else business. You're probably right though, they would but then India would attack China (massive issue surrounding Tibet) and I'm guessing Japan would too. India have the numbers, Japan have the technology. You'd have the South Koreans trying to twat the North Koreans or vice versa. And then if they won, going on to China..... I can't see it happening though. I think one of two things will happen; 1) The Crimea becomes Russian. 2) Ukraine is split in two. As things stand, 2 is looking more likely. I think that's totally wrong.
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Post by Clem Fandango on Mar 5, 2014 21:38:14 GMT
I think he'd become more reasonable and that's what is needed for this whole thing to be sorted. No humiliation, I never said that, it's a threat, a threat to back up the diplomacy-like I've said all along. And it's a threat that I think would work because Putin knows he can't risk confrontation with the west, that's not running home to Mummy, that's just being a realist. Russia would get smashed. But I don't want a war, I just want the people of Ukraine to have free elections. The Russian's have got pretty much their entire armed forces sat along the boarder, meanwhile the Yanks (And ourselves) are too caught up in invading half the rest of the world. Russia 'backing down' now would be a huge humiliation. ...... And I'm not fully up-to-speed on the capabilities of the worlds armies (Perhaps people like Salop can enlighten me) But I'd be massive surprised if the Russian war machine is this pathetic, two-bob outfit you're making them out to be. I think you are hugely under-estimating them. (And don't they also have the backing of China?..... Or I'm guessing they almost certainly would have if the Yanks turn up) They're not quite the force they once were. They had a massive build up of resources throughout the cold war and soviet period however once that collapsed they had a hard time replacing the ageing equipment they had. If you look through google there are lots of stories regarding accidents where things like missiles have blown up on the ground and bizarrely the tails of MIGS falling off mid flight. There navy at one point was looking really bad with most of there surface fleet ancient however their airforce pilots were struggling to get some stupid like 50 hours a year in their jets. I think some of this has been addressed in recent years and they've certainly been spending on the airforce. At the end of the day though ageing or not they're still able to call upon huge numbers. This to me is just brinkmanship everybody has too much to lose if there was any sort of conflict between Russia and the West.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Mar 5, 2014 21:38:48 GMT
And they are there threatening, I don't think Putin wants to use them but they're there doing a job simply by being there. Which is exactly my point! Not two bit but the Yanks just have better technology, more allies and more at their disposal. I think in military circles, it's a given that if a war was to happen between the west and Russia, there should only one winner. I stand to be corrected though! And no they don't. China have said they don't think anyone should get involved with anyone else business. You're probably right though, they would but then India would attack China (massive issue surrounding Tibet) and I'm guessing Japan would too. India have the numbers, Japan have the technology. You'd have the South Koreans trying to twat the North Koreans or vice versa. And then if they won, going on to China..... I can't see it happening though. I think one of two things will happen; 1) The Crimea becomes Russian. 2) Ukraine is split in two. As things stand, 2 is looking more likely. I think that's totally wrong. Hang on Now you're admitting yourself that if the Yanks get involved it'd lead to China getting involved, then maybe India & Japan (Not forgetting ourselves & France etc...) You've basically just said in your own words (In a round-a-bout way) that the Yanks getting involved would lead to an absolute disaster As for your "1&2", I think they're pretty much the same thing. I don't live in Ukraine so can't speak for them but the vibe I get is that the people in Crimea & eastern Ukraine are very 'pro-Russia', whereas the people in western Ukraine are a sort of mix of 'pro-west' & not exactly 'pro-west' but certainly 'anti-Russia'. Surely splitting the country into two is the logical solution?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 21:47:03 GMT
And they are there threatening, I don't think Putin wants to use them but they're there doing a job simply by being there. Which is exactly my point! Not two bit but the Yanks just have better technology, more allies and more at their disposal. I think in military circles, it's a given that if a war was to happen between the west and Russia, there should only one winner. I stand to be corrected though! And no they don't. China have said they don't think anyone should get involved with anyone else business. You're probably right though, they would but then India would attack China (massive issue surrounding Tibet) and I'm guessing Japan would too. India have the numbers, Japan have the technology. You'd have the South Koreans trying to twat the North Koreans or vice versa. And then if they won, going on to China..... I can't see it happening though. I think one of two things will happen; 1) The Crimea becomes Russian. 2) Ukraine is split in two. As things stand, 2 is looking more likely. I think that's totally wrong. Hang on Now you're admitting yourself that if the Yanks get involved it'd lead to China getting involved, then maybe India & Japan (Not forgetting ourselves & France etc...) You've basically just said in your own words (In a round-a-bout way) that the Yanks getting involved would lead to an absolute disaster As for your "1&2", I think they're pretty much the same thing. I don't live in Ukraine so can't speak for them but the vibe I get is that the people in Crimea & eastern Ukraine are very 'pro-Russia', whereas the people in western Ukraine are a sort of mix of 'pro-west' & not exactly 'pro-west' but certainly 'anti-Russia'. Surely splitting the country into two is the logical solution? No I aren't. If the Yanks got involved, I think the Russians would back down somewhat like I've been saying since my first post. You keep mentioning war, I don't think it'd happen, like I've been saying! That was just me ponitificating if a war did ensue, I don't think it would, like I've been saying! And I definitely don't think they would if they simply turned up. I aren't sure they would if it kicked off between Russia and America. IF it did and I was the Chinese leader, I'd sit there, let them pair beat the shit of each other and see me get stronger as a result as my enemies weaken. I don't think it is, it solves nowt, free elections to see what the people want will. If they want that, then let them have it. If they don't then don't. Ideally Russia would have left them to it and so would we but we're well past that now.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 21:49:22 GMT
The Russian's have got pretty much their entire armed forces sat along the boarder, meanwhile the Yanks (And ourselves) are too caught up in invading half the rest of the world. Russia 'backing down' now would be a huge humiliation. ...... And I'm not fully up-to-speed on the capabilities of the worlds armies (Perhaps people like Salop can enlighten me) But I'd be massive surprised if the Russian war machine is this pathetic, two-bob outfit you're making them out to be. I think you are hugely under-estimating them. (And don't they also have the backing of China?..... Or I'm guessing they almost certainly would have if the Yanks turn up) They're not quite the force they once were. They had a massive build up of resources throughout the cold war and soviet period however once that collapsed they had a hard time replacing the ageing equipment they had. If you look through google there are lots of stories regarding accidents where things like missiles have blown up on the ground and bizarrely the tails of MIGS falling off mid flight. There navy at one point was looking really bad with most of there surface fleet ancient however their airforce pilots were struggling to get some stupid like 50 hours a year in their jets. I think some of this has been addressed in recent years and they've certainly been spending on the airforce. At the end of the day though ageing or not they're still able to call upon huge numbers. This to me is just brinkmanship everybody has too much to lose if there was any sort of conflict between Russia and the West. Which is why it's an ace threat. No one wants it but they know if they don't back down it could be used. So both sides give a little and a resolution is found. *phone rings.....oh it's You Ban Ki..."
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Post by jonah77 on Mar 5, 2014 22:15:37 GMT
America spend more on "defense" than the rest of the worls combined,so if it really came down to brass tacks then there can only,realistically,be one outcome.There would be a lot of collateral damage however,probably including most of Europe. People seem to be putting great faith in weight of numbers when it comes to the line up of military forces but modern technology can far outweigh being outnumbered and this the yanks do extremely well.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 22:23:30 GMT
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Post by jonah77 on Mar 5, 2014 22:34:05 GMT
Country Warheads active/total[nb 1] Date of first test CTBT status[5] The five nuclear-weapon states under the NPT United States 2,150 / 7,700[3] 16 July 1945 ("Trinity") Signatory Russia 1,800 / 8,500[3] 29 August 1949 ("RDS-1") Ratifier United Kingdom 160 / 225[3] 3 October 1952 ("Hurricane") Ratifier France 290 / 300[3] 13 February 1960 ("Gerboise Bleue") Ratifier China n.a. / 250[3] 16 October 1964 ("596") Signatory Non-NPT nuclear powers India n.a. / 90–110[3] 18 May 1974 ("Smiling Buddha") Non-signatory Pakistan n.a. / 100–120[3] 28 May 1998 ("Chagai-I") Non-signatory North Korea n.a. / <10[3] 9 October 2006[6] Non-signatory Undeclared nuclear powers Israel n.a. / 60-200[3][7] Unknown (possibly 22 September 1979) Signatory
Still pretty close on nukes,though no ones sure what state the Russian ones are in.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 22:46:14 GMT
And then the Yanks can add ours and France's too. But again, I don't think it'd come down to that!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 23:20:46 GMT
...and still people talk about war and military power instead of actually helping the people of Ukraine
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 23:27:05 GMT
You need to read a bit harder me owd! As do a few on this thread!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 23:44:06 GMT
You need to read a bit harder me owd! As do a few on this thread! Not directly aimed at you at all bayern. But threats and rhetoric help nobody. Meanwhile, after a week of pestering at work, the company I work for has today sent a £400 donation for medical treatment. When people discuss the whole NATO vs Russia, it is rarely understood that it actually equates to bullshit vs help. I am quite rightly pissed off by the whole situaiton, as I see more and more ignition of a volatile situation in favour of genuine assistance. By all means lets load the black sea with warships...but it by no means helps people who need medical assistance who rely on volunteer doctors being given permission by armed fascists letting them through; or take them any closer to holding genuine elections.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 23:47:02 GMT
You need to read a bit harder me owd! As do a few on this thread! Not directly aimed at you at all bayern. But threats and rhetoric help nobody. Meanwhile, after a week of pestering at work, the company I work for has today sent a £400 donation for medical treatment. When people discuss the whole NATO vs Russia, it is rarely understood that it actually equates to bullshit vs help. I am quite rightly pissed off by the whole situaiton, as I see more and more ignition of a volatile situation in favour of genuine assistance. By all means lets load the black sea with warships...but it by no means helps people who need medical assistance who rely on volunteer doctors being given permission by armed fascists letting them through; or take them any closer to holding genuine elections. Threats and rhetoric are what will get this sorted though imo in terms of the bigger picture. Things on the ground need to be done but it's more the UN's remit I'd guess. And as well know (or should do) the UN are as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 23:48:56 GMT
You don't need a great deal of intelligence to realise that if any two major players (or more) went head to head , then the outcome for us all is likely to be armageddon. What's more, everyone knows this and therefore if Ukraine was 'absorbed' by Russia then this would be a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things. The only way to resolve this situation is to appeal to Russia's gentler more humanitarian side ....prick their conscience , offer a hand of friendship and financial support to the Ukraine. Sanctions and the threat of `trade restrictions will simply be a total failure and result in the European countries suffering more. Russia is the major supplier of fuel to many Euro countries and Putin has no doubt already built this into his long term strategic plans.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 23:54:49 GMT
Not directly aimed at you at all bayern. But threats and rhetoric help nobody. Meanwhile, after a week of pestering at work, the company I work for has today sent a £400 donation for medical treatment. When people discuss the whole NATO vs Russia, it is rarely understood that it actually equates to bullshit vs help. I am quite rightly pissed off by the whole situaiton, as I see more and more ignition of a volatile situation in favour of genuine assistance. By all means lets load the black sea with warships...but it by no means helps people who need medical assistance who rely on volunteer doctors being given permission by armed fascists letting them through; or take them any closer to holding genuine elections. Threats and rhetoric are what will get this sorted though imo in terms of the bigger picture. Things on the ground need to be done but it's more the UN's remit I'd guess. And as well know (or should do) the UN are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. ''Threats and rhetoric are what will get this sorted'' What have you got in mind...? Boris Johnson as Foreign secretary ...? Theresa May in charge of defence...? Clegg in charge of the Salvation Army...? I can't see Putin being bullied into backing down...Can you..?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 23:59:40 GMT
Threats and rhetoric are what will get this sorted though imo in terms of the bigger picture. Things on the ground need to be done but it's more the UN's remit I'd guess. And as well know (or should do) the UN are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. ''Threats and rhetoric are what will get this sorted'' What have you got in mind...? Boris Johnson as Foreign secretary ...? Theresa May in charge of defence...? Clegg in charge of the Salvation Army...? I can't see Putin being bullied into backing down...Can you..? Read the thread! So yes I can but only if a serious threat is shown. The EU can't offer one, they have the gas, we need the gas. It won't happen. America can throw trade sanctions around but so what? But an American aircraft group in the Black Sea? That'd worry owd plastic face.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 0:02:32 GMT
Not directly aimed at you at all bayern. But threats and rhetoric help nobody. Meanwhile, after a week of pestering at work, the company I work for has today sent a £400 donation for medical treatment. When people discuss the whole NATO vs Russia, it is rarely understood that it actually equates to bullshit vs help. I am quite rightly pissed off by the whole situaiton, as I see more and more ignition of a volatile situation in favour of genuine assistance. By all means lets load the black sea with warships...but it by no means helps people who need medical assistance who rely on volunteer doctors being given permission by armed fascists letting them through; or take them any closer to holding genuine elections. Threats and rhetoric are what will get this sorted though imo in terms of the bigger picture. Things on the ground need to be done but it's more the UN's remit I'd guess. And as well know (or should do) the UN are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Only in the battle between the west and Russia. It will not help Ukraine itself. mumf, I agree totally that economic related sanctions would be a total failure of politics. In fact, that there is so much discussion over trade sanctions whilst innocent people still die from their injuries is an ultimate failure of 'us' all
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 6, 2014 0:04:23 GMT
Threats and rhetoric are what will get this sorted though imo in terms of the bigger picture. Things on the ground need to be done but it's more the UN's remit I'd guess. And as well know (or should do) the UN are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Only in the battle between the west and Russia. It will not help Ukraine itself. mumf, I agree totally that economic related sanctions would be a total failure of politics. In fact, that there is so much discussion over trade sanctions whilst innocent people still die from their injuries is an ultimate failure of 'us' all Not much can.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 0:07:50 GMT
Bayern...No , absolutely not. That would simply push the whole world to the brink of nuclear war , however putting Boris in charge of the foreign office might see the whole of Moscow's power base rushing for their Vodka bottles with the utmost urgency. They'd soon capitulate within a day or so....Have you seen how this dumb blonde fuckwit rides a bike and yet still manages to pull women...?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 0:08:57 GMT
Only in the battle between the west and Russia. It will not help Ukraine itself. mumf, I agree totally that economic related sanctions would be a total failure of politics. In fact, that there is so much discussion over trade sanctions whilst innocent people still die from their injuries is an ultimate failure of 'us' all Not much can. It can actually bayern...very easily
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 6, 2014 0:18:26 GMT
It can actually bayern...very easily Not in the real world! But good luck anyway!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 8:51:15 GMT
I have a cynical feeling that this is all a play by all the big powers to bring about world control No I'm not starkiller
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 10:44:19 GMT
I have a cynical feeling that this is all a play by all the big powers to bring about world control No I'm not starkiller Attachment Deleted
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