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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 21:53:18 GMT
Nothing like supporting the poor people of Ukraine , providing it doesn't harm our balance of payments You are a mite cynical tonight mate ....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 21:55:39 GMT
and whilst our lot in their fancy offices discuss trade sanctions, oil supplies and stock market crashes, those people in Ukraine duped in to thinking that we were here to save them still stand by waiting for anybody to do something useful. It is actually becoming a joke now over the phrase 'deep concern' in that if people are asked to do something, they'll respond 'I'm not deeply concerned enough to do so'. Each day where nothing constructive happens, that anti EU resentment will grow and more people become sympathetic towards extremists who just think 'fuck everybody'. Well done EU/USA...you are absolute legends So what exactly should the USA/EU do?Go to war? Whatever they do mate , you know as well as I do....It will be wrong
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 22:04:32 GMT
What should have happened is for the UN to have sent in a peace keeping force two weeks ago , but as usual it didn't. It was even discussed I expect. Now the game is over.
Russia has won and it becomes a slow gentle squeeze of attrition into 'the fold'. The rhetoric and warnings the EU and America are issuing are pointless and the Soviets know it.
There's too much at stake to upset the Russians and our protests will gradually slip away into oblivion.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Mar 4, 2014 22:05:57 GMT
The Eastern half of Ukraine want to be Russian. The Western half want to become more involved with the West (God knows why!)
The country has been a 'buffer zone' between Russia & The West & neither side would want the other in full control of it.
Split it in two; The East who want to be Russian can then be so (And Russia can feel good about themselves for flexing a bit of muscle) And the West who want to become a bit closer with Europe & The US can also have their wish (And The Yanks can feel happy about having someone 'on their side' so close to the Russian border)
Everyone wins. There's no need for people to die in a pointless war, & there's certainly no need for the ruling elite to whack the prices up on everything & make the poor suffer.... again!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 22:06:30 GMT
and whilst our lot in their fancy offices discuss trade sanctions, oil supplies and stock market crashes, those people in Ukraine duped in to thinking that we were here to save them still stand by waiting for anybody to do something useful. It is actually becoming a joke now over the phrase 'deep concern' in that if people are asked to do something, they'll respond 'I'm not deeply concerned enough to do so'. Each day where nothing constructive happens, that anti EU resentment will grow and more people become sympathetic towards extremists who just think 'fuck everybody'. Well done EU/USA...you are absolute legends So what exactly should the USA/EU do?Go to war? I think I've already answered that question in previous posts. There is an absolutely huge think called 'genuine help' that fills the void in the triangle of sanctions, war or nothing
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 22:10:46 GMT
The Eastern half of Ukraine want to be Russian. The Western half want to become more involved with the West (God knows why!) The country has been a 'buffer zone' between Russia & The West & neither side would want the other in full control of it. Split it in two; The East who want to be Russian can then be so (And Russia can feel good about themselves for flexing a bit of muscle) And the West who want to become a bit closer with Europe & The US can also have their wish (And The Yanks can feel happy about having someone 'on their side' so close to the Russian border) Everyone wins. There's no need for people to die in a pointless war, & there's certainly no need for the ruling elite to whack the prices up on everything & make the poor suffer.... again! ...except for Ukraine itself
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 22:16:15 GMT
Why split it into two when you can swallow the whole thing.
Putin.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Mar 4, 2014 22:16:28 GMT
...except for Ukraine itself But there isn't a Ukraine. There's a bunch of people who want to be really, really close to Russia, & another bunch of people who want to be really close to the West. There's a very simple solution.
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Post by jonah77 on Mar 4, 2014 22:30:29 GMT
So what exactly should the USA/EU do?Go to war? I think I've already answered that question in previous posts. There is an absolutely huge think called 'genuine help' that fills the void in the triangle of sanctions, war or nothing What exactly is"genuine help"?
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Post by dutchpeter72 on Mar 4, 2014 22:32:09 GMT
The Eastern half of Ukraine want to be Russian. The Western half want to become more involved with the West (God knows why!) The country has been a 'buffer zone' between Russia & The West & neither side would want the other in full control of it. Split it in two; The East who want to be Russian can then be so (And Russia can feel good about themselves for flexing a bit of muscle) And the West who want to become a bit closer with Europe & The US can also have their wish (And The Yanks can feel happy about having someone 'on their side' so close to the Russian border) Everyone wins. There's no need for people to die in a pointless war, & there's certainly no need for the ruling elite to whack the prices up on everything & make the poor suffer.... again! ...except for Ukraine itself Well fella you've got plenty to say. Can you tell me what you'll be doing personally? Looks like you've got it all worked out.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 22:39:57 GMT
...except for Ukraine itself But there isn't a Ukraine. There's a bunch of people who want to be really, really close to Russia, & another bunch of people who want to be really close to the West. There's a very simple solution. 'Simple' for the outside world yes, but not correct. There is a Ukraine. It is full of people of different backgrounds with different political views and motivations, just like every other country. They have groups of people who want closer ties with Europe, those who don't, just like every other country. The only actual tear of the country itself will come from the outside as both sides say gimme gimme gimme...look out for the poeple...gimme gimme gimme, i want, you can't have. Any actual split of the country will be disastrous for Ukraine and will all come back with even bigger problems in another 5/10 years. Ukraine can find its peace, all of its citizens do, but it needs help to actually get back on its feet again. Nothing that is currently happening is doing that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 22:51:45 GMT
...except for Ukraine itself Well fella you've got plenty to say. Can you tell me what you'll be doing personally? Looks like you've got it all worked out. I have plenty to say,yes, and I for sure have the right to say it and obviously get quite annoyed that genuine help isn't coming from all those countries that pledge their support but sit around tables making threats instead. Personally, I'm fund raising for a charity trying to get food and medical supplies, equipment and doctors to injured people. The people out there have to get past groups of radicals with baseball bats and metal bars who control who gets access or not to Maidan. I'm getting a website put together to help with this. This is the absolute tip of the iceberg though, and far more help is needed. I haven't got it all worked out, not by any means, but I've got my own views and opinions that I'm going to express especially if I strongly disagree with somebody. I can certainly see that something is very wrong when doctors there to help have to wait for permission from radical groups patrolling the streets.
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Post by dutchpeter72 on Mar 4, 2014 23:02:26 GMT
Fair play to you fella. I'm RN. I hate seeing civvies playing chess with me and my Army and RAF mates, then slagging us off when it goes tits up (domestically). Pragmatism is the key here.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 23:17:20 GMT
Fair play to you fella. I'm RN. I hate seeing civvies playing chess with me and my Army and RAF mates, then slagging us off when it goes tits up (domestically). Pragmatism is the key here. Not all civvies slag the forces off mate .....it's always the forces that get it in the neck when the politicians get it wrong.....not from me I can assure you...you always get the dirty end of the stick
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Post by dutchpeter72 on Mar 4, 2014 23:28:12 GMT
Fair play to you fella. I'm RN. I hate seeing civvies playing chess with me and my Army and RAF mates, then slagging us off when it goes tits up (domestically). Pragmatism is the key here. Not all civvies slag the forces off mate .....it's always the forces that get it in the neck when the politicians get it wrong.....not from me I can assure you...you always get the dirty end of the stick Bish thank you for your support. I guess you know my fierce anti Thatcherism. But the forces that have put us to war in the last decade, are the forces that hate us now. I'm not allowed to be controversial, but it goes no further than us lol. There is genuine hatred against the armed forces whatever we do, but it's another thread for that. My thoughts are for the political and territorial integrity of Ukraine. God bless those in fear there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 23:43:17 GMT
Not all civvies slag the forces off mate .....it's always the forces that get it in the neck when the politicians get it wrong.....not from me I can assure you...you always get the dirty end of the stick Bish thank you for your support. I guess you know my fierce anti Thatcherism. But the forces that have put us to war in the last decade, are the forces that hate us now. I'm not allowed to be controversial, but it goes no further than us lol. There is genuine hatred against the armed forces whatever we do, but it's another thread for that. My thoughts are for the political and territorial integrity of Ukraine. God bless those in fear there. You are most welcome mate , your personal point of view is yours and you entitled to as you should be of course , I have no problem with others having different views to me. Yes you are correct what you say about Ukraine....the people there surely didn't wish for this ...good luck to them and may there be no further loss of life
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 0:11:55 GMT
I think there is 'genuine hatred' as you describe it amongst an ever growing cross section of society based on religious beliefs and culture , but to say any more would bring about the wrath of those who tend to use the 'race card' at the earliest opportunity. That said , I truly believe that the vast majority of us Brits are in the main very supportive of the role the armed services play. As I have got older, I have slowly come over to the philosophy that before things can get better , then they inevitably have to get worse. What that means is , if the pain and suffering endured by many civilians in many conflicts across the world is caused by their own countryman or nearby neighbours , then why should we risk our own lives to put things right.? Many would argue because we are more humanitarian and should set an example. My counter argument is ...no , they need to learn the hard way and put their own house in order first. If the solution is to simply provide humanitarian aid then fine , but in the majority of cases it goes well beyond this and involves military action. Afghanistan is a good example of what I'm describing. It is only a matter of time before all the good work that we have achieved will revert back to what went before. A country ruled by fear , oppression and the Taliban. Ask any army Colonel off the record and he will tell you the same. The situation in Ukraine is somewhat different , but the bottom line is that corruption and soviet influence still very strong. Putin and Russia are still very dominant and commanding. The 'fear factor' and 'big brother is watching you' a dominant factor in their psyche and foreign policy over its satellite states. The West cannot win this diplomatic war of words. It is already having second thoughts over sanctions and trade restrictions.
It has lost to Putin.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 0:15:43 GMT
I think there is 'genuine hatred' as you describe it amongst an ever growing cross section of society based on religious beliefs and culture , but to say any more would bring about the wrath of those who tend to use the 'race card' at the earliest opportunity. That said , I truly believe that the vast majority of us Brits are in the main very supportive of the role the armed services play. As I have got older, I have slowly come over to the philosophy that before things can get better , then they inevitably have to get worse. What that means is , if the pain and suffering endured by many civilians in many conflicts across the world is caused by their own countryman or nearby neighbours , then why should we risk our own lives to put things right.? Many would argue because we are more humanitarian and should set an example. My counter argument is ...no , they need to learn the hard way and put their own house in order first. If the solution is to simply provide humanitarian aid then fine , but in the majority of cases it goes well beyond this and involves military action. Afghanistan is a good example of what I'm describing. It is only a matter of time before all the good work that we have achieved will revert back to what went before. A country ruled by fear , oppression and the Taliban. Ask any army Colonel off the record and he will tell you the same. The situation in Ukraine is somewhat different , but the bottom line is that corruption and soviet influence still very strong. Putin and Russia are still very dominant and commanding. The 'fear factor' and 'big brother is watching you' a dominant factor in their psyche and foreign policy over its satellite states. The West cannot win this diplomatic war of words. It is already having second thoughts over sanctions and trade restrictions. It has lost to Putin. A very good post , with some excellent points
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 0:19:37 GMT
Not all civvies slag the forces off mate .....it's always the forces that get it in the neck when the politicians get it wrong.....not from me I can assure you...you always get the dirty end of the stick Bish thank you for your support. I guess you know my fierce anti Thatcherism. But the forces that have put us to war in the last decade, are the forces that hate us now. I'm not allowed to be controversial, but it goes no further than us lol. There is genuine hatred against the armed forces whatever we do, but it's another thread for that. My thoughts are for the political and territorial integrity of Ukraine. God bless those in fear there. I also feel a certain empathy for those Russian troops today who were put in the awful position by Putin in that they may have had to open fire upon those Ukranian service men in the Crimea.....I am sure it is a situation that they did not feel happy about and did not want to be in .....they got the dirty end of the politicians stick in that instance
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 0:26:05 GMT
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” ? Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man.” ? Mark Twain
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 0:45:58 GMT
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” ? Sun Tzu, The Art of War “If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man.” ? Mark Twain Yes ...excellent quotes ....all accessible on google ...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 0:50:38 GMT
....and in books.
Some can do it from memory and some cannot. The message is still the same.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 0:57:07 GMT
We make Victoria Cross medals from the guns that were captured at Sebastopol during the charge of the Light Brigade
I understand we are running out of metal from them so if you guys have a few grey horses and the will to charge perhaps our supplies might be replenished.
Always men like Putin are driven by fear, fear of looking weak in this case I fear, when a single man can risk the safety of the entire world for his vanity I have to ask where did we go wrong. The nutter in North Korea is just as bad perhaps even worse until they learn that there can be no victory in a nuclear war they will continue to flex their immature childish muscles.
Someone buy them a PC so they can play war games online with me =)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 1:10:24 GMT
We make Victoria Cross medals from the guns that were captured at Sebastopol during the charge of the Light Brigade I understand we are running out of metal from them so if you guys have a few grey horses and the will to charge perhaps our supplies might be replenished. Always men like Putin are driven by fear, fear of looking weak in this case I fear, when a single man can risk the safety of the entire world for his vanity I have to ask where did we go wrong. The nutter in North Korea is just as bad perhaps even worse until they learn that there can be no victory in a nuclear war they will continue to flex their immature childish muscles. Someone buy them a PC so they can play war games online with me =) A very good post , but in reality is Putin really risking the safety of the whole world , or perhaps carrying out a clever calculated plan of annexing a neighbouring satellite state by stealth , safe in the knowledge that he holds the ace card of being the primary supplier of energy to most of Europe. North Korea ....Well, now we are talking a real nutter....A man capable of absolutely anything. I bet there there are many nuclear war heads pointing at his head from a number of countries. I do love to watch the hilarious mass hysteria of undying love and support though ...The crying , the worship ...the Goose-Stepping soldiers. He recently wiped out his uncle and most of his own family....Fantastic sport. mumf
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 7:33:06 GMT
I think there is 'genuine hatred' as you describe it amongst an ever growing cross section of society based on religious beliefs and culture , but to say any more would bring about the wrath of those who tend to use the 'race card' at the earliest opportunity. That said , I truly believe that the vast majority of us Brits are in the main very supportive of the role the armed services play. As I have got older, I have slowly come over to the philosophy that before things can get better , then they inevitably have to get worse. What that means is , if the pain and suffering endured by many civilians in many conflicts across the world is caused by their own countryman or nearby neighbours , then why should we risk our own lives to put things right.? Many would argue because we are more humanitarian and should set an example. My counter argument is ...no , they need to learn the hard way and put their own house in order first. If the solution is to simply provide humanitarian aid then fine , but in the majority of cases it goes well beyond this and involves military action. Afghanistan is a good example of what I'm describing. It is only a matter of time before all the good work that we have achieved will revert back to what went before. A country ruled by fear , oppression and the Taliban. Ask any army Colonel off the record and he will tell you the same. The situation in Ukraine is somewhat different , but the bottom line is that corruption and soviet influence still very strong. Putin and Russia are still very dominant and commanding. The 'fear factor' and 'big brother is watching you' a dominant factor in their psyche and foreign policy over its satellite states. The West cannot win this diplomatic war of words. It is already having second thoughts over sanctions and trade restrictions. It has lost to Putin. Some good points there mumf, and Ukraine is definitely a different situation. The corruption has to stop, simple as that. A key concern of mine (and one of the many other things that needs sorting) is that a radical group who used the genuine protests as a vehicle for trouble were the ones fighting every day with police and then hid in amongst the peaceful protesters; are now the ones ruling the streets and have its sympathisers in self appointed positions of power. but because they are pro-Europe, they have been recognised and accepted as the legitimate people in charge. There is very little or no police presence. This simply cannot be allowed. They also warned the west not to force a 'them vs us' situation, and they are right. But, the way things are means that our people in charge decide that they are either 100% right or wrong with absolutely everything. When Yanukovich fled, the protesters on Maidan and the people of Kiev were told that elections would be bought forward to March this year. But nothing. This part of the real help that people need. It has to get safe access to hospitals, order restored, protection for ALL of its citizens, fair elections sorted and a new way of working between the east, south and west and begin the cleanup operation. It is entirely possible for Ukraine to function as a whole, regardless AND maintain positive relations with both Russia and Europe. It cannot do so with the dirty politics and greed from others though. Ukraine is an incredibly complex country to understand, but it citizens have got by perfectly well despite their differences until now, and this is all fueled by extremists and international geopolitical arguments; it would be a very sad occasion all around if the latter 'won'.
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Post by harryburrows on Mar 5, 2014 17:31:16 GMT
Nothing like supporting the poor people of Ukraine , providing it doesn't harm our balance of payments You are a mite cynical tonight mate .... I think the statement was a tad crass bish, why would he rule out trade sanctions if the situation is as critical as we are led to believe . Having said that its difficult to imagine that there is anything we can do to prevent Putin doing what he likes in that region . He hasn't been swayed by world opinion in the past
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 17:44:34 GMT
You are a mite cynical tonight mate .... I think the statement was a tad crass bish, why would he rule out trade sanctions if the situation is as critical as we are led to believe . Having said that its difficult to imagine that there is anything we can do to prevent Putin doing what he likes in that region . He hasn't been swayed by world opinion in the past No he has not ...or is he likely to be
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 5, 2014 20:46:31 GMT
We can't win diplomatic efforts with trade sanctions, so we have to either give in (not an option for me) or show some form of threat like I've said all along. By "we", I mean the Yanks!
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Mar 5, 2014 20:52:19 GMT
We can't win diplomatic efforts with trade sanctions, so we have to either give in (not an option for me) or show some form of threat like I've said all along. By "we", I mean the Yanks! The Yanks, along with the rest of us, have got bases all throughout Europe, what difference does it make if an aircraft carrier gets sent a few miles closer? ...... And what if Russia then call your bluff & start a full scale invasion of Ukraine, or send their own ships to enage your aircraft carrier, what're you gonna do then? Given your logic so far I'll assume you'll want to launch a few nukes, that'll end well.
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Post by harryburrows on Mar 5, 2014 20:56:14 GMT
Military intervention isn't an option is it so the Europeans & Americans will sit on their hands . As I've said this is putins show he I in control of events over there , to show the world his intent he should at least disarm the militia on both sides and bring some stability to the cities
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