|
Post by stokeramblers on Apr 1, 2013 14:35:41 GMT
His views are massively misinterepreted imo. Hes actively supported anti-racism campaigns on numerous occasions and stated that it wasnt necessarily the actions of Mussolini that he supported, but rather that he felt he was "deeply misunderstood". Hes another guy who left wing happy clapping champagne socialist bastards can take a cheap shot at. I'd be delighted if we sacked Pulis and brought in someone of Di Canio's ability. ???
|
|
|
Post by dudnostokie on Apr 1, 2013 14:36:46 GMT
Get off your high horse bassmaster and stop looking down on others. Granted you have your views and you are entitled to them, but so do others and just because they don't care as much about a managers morals it doesn't make them morons. I personally wouldn't care if a manager has certain political or religious beliefs, and I won't have someone such as yourself looking down on me for it. I have supported Stoke my whole life and I personally wouldn't stop supporting them for anything. The problem is really around the influence managers/players have on children etc.. I certainly would not want my child being taught by a teacher with such beliefs. Neither would I like such a vile person to represent my football club. Simple really. Fair enough, but in my opinion the club extends far beyond the manager. To me, it extends to the players that represent our club, the various members of staff, the fans, and an indescribable love for the city. I couldn't just stop supporting the club because of his personal views, just as I would still support the club if David Cameron was managing it and I can't stomach the bloke.
|
|
|
Post by Staffsoatcake on Apr 1, 2013 14:38:58 GMT
How would He react? The last thing a club wants is for their manager giving Nazi salutes when the team scores. He needs to keep his beliefs very low key, or the club he manages would suffer big time. Would I be willing to take that sort of chance with a Di Canio type manager?I dont think I would.
|
|
mt
Youth Player
Posts: 355
|
Post by mt on Apr 1, 2013 14:42:36 GMT
His views are massively misinterepreted imo. Hes actively supported anti-racism campaigns on numerous occasions and stated that it wasnt necessarily the actions of Mussolini that he supported, but rather that he felt he was "deeply misunderstood". Hes another guy who left wing happy clapping champagne socialist bastards can take a cheap shot at. I'd be delighted if we sacked Pulis and brought in someone of Di Canio's ability. Did he explain why he think Mussolini was "deeply misunderstood"?
|
|
|
Post by fishlovesoatcakes on Apr 1, 2013 14:42:56 GMT
The problem is really around the influence managers/players have on children etc.. I certainly would not want my child being taught by a teacher with such beliefs. Neither would I like such a vile person to represent my football club. Simple really. Fair enough, but in my opinion the club extends far beyond the manager. To me, it extends to the players that represent our club, the various members of staff, the fans, and an indescribable love for the city. I couldn't just stop supporting the club because of his personal views, just as I would still support the club if David Cameron was managing it and I can't stomach the bloke. We are all entitled to our opinions. I could not support a club who chose to employ a manager who does nazi salutes. Think it would also upset our older fans.
|
|
|
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 1, 2013 14:44:17 GMT
His views are massively misinterepreted imo. Hes actively supported anti-racism campaigns on numerous occasions and stated that it wasnt necessarily the actions of Mussolini that he supported, but rather that he felt he was "deeply misunderstood". Hes another guy who left wing happy clapping champagne socialist bastards can take a cheap shot at. I'd be delighted if we sacked Pulis and brought in someone of Di Canio's ability. ??? ??? Such actions merely give him a sense of belonging. Seriously though hes absolutely fine.
|
|
|
Post by GlennA on Apr 1, 2013 14:44:53 GMT
You could argue that a fascist is actually incapable of properly performing the duties of a modern football manager because they are irreconcilable with fascist beliefs. Sport is based on the idea of a level playing field, not on some nineteenth-century idea that certain races are inherently superior to others. If he was a proper fascist (and in reality he's probably just a mouthy dickhead)then he wouldn't be comfortable picking 'star' black players, for example, let alone performing the public duties of a manager in respect of a modern, multicultural supporter base and community.
|
|
|
Post by stokeramblers on Apr 1, 2013 14:47:27 GMT
Di Canio is a devoted supporter of Lazio, a Rome club with a history of fascist links; while playing for Lazio, he repeatedly gave fascist salutes to the crowd. He has the word "Dux" (Latin translation of Mussolini's nickname, "Il Duce") tattooed on his right bicep. He also had to apologise to his own player, Jonathan Tehoue, after an incident in training last year, but Di Canio was cleared of racially abusing him. It puts me in mind of when this bloke says 'I'm not racist; But...' I just don't buy it Paolo. Just wait til Sunderland are lining up in their all black away kit next season.. Pulis OUT Facists OUT
|
|
mt
Youth Player
Posts: 355
|
Post by mt on Apr 1, 2013 14:50:46 GMT
I don't believe in god and pulis does so should I have to stop going because he has a different view than me, don't think so. I expected something like this.. "Pulis likes egg and bacon. I don`t. Still don`t want to sack him..." But facism is a clearly misantrophic and extreme ideology.You really want the club to have no values? You have to draw the line somewhere...
|
|
|
Post by nik80 on Apr 1, 2013 14:51:21 GMT
I'm not gonna get too heavily embroiled into this bollocks because I don't want to be wrongly accused of being a fascist supporter or ridiculously as it may sound, some kind of Nazi sympathiser by some of the less informed on here. BUT, what I will bet is that the original poster hasn't a single clue about A origins of Italian fascism, reasons for and distinctions from its younger German manifestation, B Mussolini or in fact C Paulo Di Canio's and his overall persuasion on the subject. The Roman salute and things he said whilst playing in Rome for S.S. Lazio (I suppose that's a conspiratorial link to naziism too) was highly questionable for a professional in the media spotlight yet should be considered in the context of where it was done. Anyone who knows anything about Italian culture and its links between football and politics will know that the two things are very difficult to keep apart, in a way that is quite alien to the British game. As far as I'm aware, whilst Paulo Di Canio has plied his trade in England he hasn't been on any crusade to convert weak minded individuals to some form of neo-fascism and Although he's acted stupidly in the past, I doubt he's about to start any time soon. Many Italians admire Mussolini, you only have to look what was happening before his regime and after to see that Italy's problems are deeper routed than the reign of one man himself. I'm not suggesting that, everyone should love Paulo Di Canio and simply accept his political views, I'm just saying, a bit of genuine knowledge on the matter and a bit of perspective wouldn't go a miss before starting a thread on the subject. Paulo Di Canio's not a fooking nazi, personally I like the guy... But I wouldn't want him at Stoke, crazy Italian
|
|
|
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 1, 2013 14:52:19 GMT
His views are massively misinterepreted imo. Hes actively supported anti-racism campaigns on numerous occasions and stated that it wasnt necessarily the actions of Mussolini that he supported, but rather that he felt he was "deeply misunderstood". Hes another guy who left wing happy clapping champagne socialist bastards can take a cheap shot at. I'd be delighted if we sacked Pulis and brought in someone of Di Canio's ability. Did he explain why he think Mussolini was "deeply misunderstood"? He claimed there were elements of Mussolini's principles that he could appreciate. Hes not justifying everything Mussolini did by any means. But you could look at Hitler and appreciate some of the things he did say in an economical sense whilst still acknowledging some of his actions were absolutely unforgivable. Di Canio quite clearly has right wing values. As many do.
|
|
|
Post by nik80 on Apr 1, 2013 14:58:34 GMT
Did he explain why he think Mussolini was "deeply misunderstood"? He claimed there were elements of Mussolini's principles that he could appreciate. Hes not justifying everything Mussolini did by any means. But you could look at Hitler and appreciate some of the things he did say in an economical sense whilst still acknowledging some of his actions were absolutely unforgivable. Di Canio quite clearly has right wing values. As many do. Beautifully put
|
|
|
Post by fortressbritannia on Apr 1, 2013 14:59:03 GMT
His views are massively misinterepreted imo. Hes actively supported anti-racism campaigns on numerous occasions and stated that it wasnt necessarily the actions of Mussolini that he supported, but rather that he felt he was "deeply misunderstood". Hes another guy who left wing happy clapping champagne socialist bastards can take a cheap shot at. I'd be delighted if we sacked Pulis and brought in someone of Di Canio's ability. Di Canio's ability what are we basing this on? An 18 month spell in the 3rd and 4th division or English football, there's a massive gap between league 1 and the Premier League.
|
|
|
Post by stokeramblers on Apr 1, 2013 15:00:55 GMT
Did he explain why he think Mussolini was "deeply misunderstood"? He claimed there were elements of Mussolini's principles that he could appreciate. Hes not justifying everything Mussolini did by any means. But you could look at Hitler and appreciate some of the things he did say in an economical sense whilst still acknowledging some of his actions were absolutely unforgivable. Di Canio quite clearly has right wing values. As many do. Top bloke that Hitler. Awful mess with those Jews though, very unfortunate episode, Messy business that old chap. Top work on the Autobahns though! There'S right wing and there's right wing. Di Canio would even make UKIP baulk. How do you think it would go down if Di Canio was an English manager and was a supporter of Britain's preeminent facist party the BNP? There'd be uproar
|
|
|
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 1, 2013 15:01:40 GMT
His views are massively misinterepreted imo. Hes actively supported anti-racism campaigns on numerous occasions and stated that it wasnt necessarily the actions of Mussolini that he supported, but rather that he felt he was "deeply misunderstood". Hes another guy who left wing happy clapping champagne socialist bastards can take a cheap shot at. I'd be delighted if we sacked Pulis and brought in someone of Di Canio's ability. Di Canio's ability what are we basing this on? An 18 month spell in the 3rd and 4th division or English football, there's a massive gap between league 1 and the Premier League. Taking a side from league 2 to the top of league 1 on a budget akin to that of a blue square premier league side. Pretty impressive if you ask me and something Tony Pulis could only dream of. Without significant financial backing Pulis is a distinctly average manager.
|
|
|
Post by fortressbritannia on Apr 1, 2013 15:04:25 GMT
Di Canio's ability what are we basing this on? An 18 month spell in the 3rd and 4th division or English football, there's a massive gap between league 1 and the Premier League. Taking a side from league 2 to the top of league 1 on a budget akin to that of a blue square premier league side. Pretty impressive if you ask me and something Tony Pulis could only dream of. Without significant financial backing Pulis is a distinctly average manager. Fair point but I disagree with the TP part he's a much better manager with a lower budget
|
|
|
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 1, 2013 15:07:33 GMT
He claimed there were elements of Mussolini's principles that he could appreciate. Hes not justifying everything Mussolini did by any means. But you could look at Hitler and appreciate some of the things he did say in an economical sense whilst still acknowledging some of his actions were absolutely unforgivable. Di Canio quite clearly has right wing values. As many do. Top bloke that Hitler. Awful mess with those Jews though, very unfortunate episode, Messy business that old chap. Top work on the Autobahns though! There'S right wing and there's right wing. Di Canio would even make UKIP baulk. How do you think it would go down if Di Canio was an English manager and was a supporter of Britain's preeminent facist party the BNP? There'd be uproar oh come off it Ramblers his views have been intentionally misunderstood. What evidence do you have that hes a genuine facist? The only evidence as far as i'm concerned is that he saluted the Lazio crowd (a club renowned for their right wing views), an action he claimed gave him a sense of self-belonging and wasnt politically motivated. All hes stated re Mussolini is that there were aspects of his rule he agreed with. Hes been a major supporter of anti-racism campaigns and has stated on numerous occasions such views.
|
|
|
Post by desman2 on Apr 1, 2013 15:07:59 GMT
Unfortunately some only see/hear what they want to.
You only have to look at it on our own doorstep. Lab/Lib/Com say we should deal with immigration and its ok. UKIP/BNP/Migrationwatch say the same and its fascism.
|
|
|
Post by fortressbritannia on Apr 1, 2013 15:08:06 GMT
Di Canio's ability what are we basing this on? An 18 month spell in the 3rd and 4th division or English football, there's a massive gap between league 1 and the Premier League. Taking a side from league 2 to the top of league 1 on a budget akin to that of a blue square premier league side. Pretty impressive if you ask me and something Tony Pulis could only dream of. Without significant financial backing Pulis is a distinctly average manager. Fair point but I disagree with the TP part he's a much better manager with a lower budget.
|
|
|
Post by jezzascfc on Apr 1, 2013 15:09:37 GMT
This is a very complex issue not easily dismissed nor to be taken lightly. On the one hand, you could say he should be judged on how he does his job as a football manager, but on th other, if his morale/political views are so obviously at odds with those of the majority, does this colour his inter-personal relationship with those over whom he has influence at the club? What if a new manager was a convicted criminal, now released and rehabilitated, (like a Lee Hughes) or even a sex offender (like Graham Rix)? How far does our tolerance extend, our ability to hide behind the "judge him on results as manager of a football team"?
Glenn Hoddle's out of kilter religious views cost him the England job - is PDC's fascism any more/less controversial?
|
|
|
Post by Peters Pipe on Apr 1, 2013 15:10:26 GMT
In terms of the question, "Should I be bothered about the views of those speaking in the public eye at my football club?", the answer has to be, "No, of course not."
The key thing here is the "should" bit. I should not be bothered, but as there is an exception to any rule, if the new boss had openly declared himself a fan of Mussolini and a Fascist, then I would be very bothered indeed. I would certainly not want someone like Di Canio anywhere near our club.
Mussolini's fascists weren't the soft, southern, cuddly Fascists by any stretch, Mussolini implemented and oversaw a brutal regime and pandered to an even worse one, let's not forget that.
|
|
|
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 1, 2013 15:10:27 GMT
Taking a side from league 2 to the top of league 1 on a budget akin to that of a blue square premier league side. Pretty impressive if you ask me and something Tony Pulis could only dream of. Without significant financial backing Pulis is a distinctly average manager. Fair point but I disagree with the TP part he's a much better manager with a lower budget When we say "lower budget" what are we talking about here? The budget he had in the championship was one of the highest the league has ever seen. I agree that hes better when it comes to signing lower league players ie Walters for 3 million as opposed to 10 million, but thats still a significant amount of money. I've seen nothing to suggest he could succeed in league 2 with no financial budget. Hes been sacked before for his lack of competence in the transfer market and rightly so. Without money he is nothing.
|
|
|
Post by stokeramblers on Apr 1, 2013 15:10:25 GMT
Top bloke that Hitler. Awful mess with those Jews though, very unfortunate episode, Messy business that old chap. Top work on the Autobahns though! There'S right wing and there's right wing. Di Canio would even make UKIP baulk. How do you think it would go down if Di Canio was an English manager and was a supporter of Britain's preeminent facist party the BNP? There'd be uproar oh come off it Ramblers his views have been intentionally misunderstood. What evidence do you have that hes a genuine facist? Probably the direct quote from the man himself...“I am a fascist, not a racist.” We all want Pulis out but I get the impression you'd take Paul Sturrock, Phil Brown, Ian Dowie or any fucker right now. Have some standards man.
|
|
|
Post by dime on Apr 1, 2013 15:11:08 GMT
Support for the core underlying values of fascism does not make the guy a racist, and labeling him a Nazi is laughable. It is a political ideology that is found disagreeable by most, but should such views really restrict his employment possibilities? In my opinion, no.
|
|
|
Post by nik80 on Apr 1, 2013 15:11:41 GMT
He claimed there were elements of Mussolini's principles that he could appreciate. Hes not justifying everything Mussolini did by any means. But you could look at Hitler and appreciate some of the things he did say in an economical sense whilst still acknowledging some of his actions were absolutely unforgivable. Di Canio quite clearly has right wing values. As many do. Top bloke that Hitler. Awful mess with those Jews though, very unfortunate episode, Messy business that old chap. Top work on the Autobahns though! There'S right wing and there's right wing. Di Canio would even make UKIP baulk. How do you think it would go down if Di Canio was an English manager and was a supporter of Britain's preeminent facist party the BNP? There'd be uproar Okay, if we're dealing in hypotheticals how about thinking if like this, if Paulo Di Canio was an Englishman the chances of him being a supporter or admirer British fascism would be much slimmer and therefore much more abhorrent. I'm not making excuses for Paulo Di Canio's beliefs, I don't think it's necessary. I do believe however that the origins of Italian fascism and its ideology get twisted and blurred by a greater appreciation and understanding of naziism which is probably a bit unfair.
|
|
|
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 1, 2013 15:18:28 GMT
oh come off it Ramblers his views have been intentionally misunderstood. What evidence do you have that hes a genuine facist? Probably the direct quote from the man himself...“I am a fascist, not a racist.” We all want Pulis out but I get the impression you'd take Paul Sturrock, Phil Brown, Ian Dowie or any fucker right now. Have some standards man. Hes come out on numerous occasions and questioned the content of those original claims. He quite clearly isnt a fascist. If you want play these ridiculous game and suggest hes some kind of evil fascist lunatic i'll play them too. Would a fascist go out and order 200 working class citizens pizza after they helped to clear snow off the pitch?
|
|
mt
Youth Player
Posts: 355
|
Post by mt on Apr 1, 2013 15:18:48 GMT
Did he explain why he think Mussolini was "deeply misunderstood"? He claimed there were elements of Mussolini's principles that he could appreciate. Hes not justifying everything Mussolini did by any means. But you could look at Hitler and appreciate some of the things he did say in an economical sense whilst still acknowledging some of his actions were absolutely unforgivable. Di Canio quite clearly has right wing values. As many do. What kind of elements did he appreciate? I`m sure you know, but it doesn`t work that way that you just can pick the good things from an ideology and leave the bad things behind. They are connected to each other. Building highways in a country( like Hitler did, for example ) is a good thing, but you have to look at it in a bigger picture. The same thing with Mussolini really. He was a dictator and didn`t show any mercy to his political opponents. It`s just as simple as a person with such political wiew shouldn`t be in charge at any footballclub.
|
|
|
Post by jbstokie on Apr 1, 2013 15:19:10 GMT
Di Canio's ability what are we basing this on? An 18 month spell in the 3rd and 4th division or English football, there's a massive gap between league 1 and the Premier League. Taking a side from league 2 to the top of league 1 on a budget akin to that of a blue square premier league side. Pretty impressive if you ask me and something Tony Pulis could only dream of. Without significant financial backing Pulis is a distinctly average manager. Got any figures for this statement?
|
|
|
Post by stokeramblers on Apr 1, 2013 15:21:04 GMT
Top bloke that Hitler. Awful mess with those Jews though, very unfortunate episode, Messy business that old chap. Top work on the Autobahns though! There'S right wing and there's right wing. Di Canio would even make UKIP baulk. How do you think it would go down if Di Canio was an English manager and was a supporter of Britain's preeminent facist party the BNP? There'd be uproar Okay, if we're dealing in hypotheticals how about thinking if like this, if Paulo Di Canio was an Englishman the chances of him being a supporter or admirer British fascism would be much slimmer and therefore much more abhorrent. I'm not making excuses for Paulo Di Canio's beliefs, I don't think it's necessary. I do believe however that the origins of Italian fascism and its ideology get twisted and blurred by a greater appreciation and understanding of naziism which is probably a bit unfair. So we treat Italians differently, like some senile old Grandad. 'Send the buggers back!' Oh Grandad, yer daft racist. Just because Italian facism has it's roots in Ancient History and the Roman Empire doesn't make it any more cuddly a form of Facism. I'm off to Chester to shoot a Welshman from the confines of the city walls with a longbow
|
|
|
Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 1, 2013 15:21:18 GMT
Taking a side from league 2 to the top of league 1 on a budget akin to that of a blue square premier league side. Pretty impressive if you ask me and something Tony Pulis could only dream of. Without significant financial backing Pulis is a distinctly average manager. Got any figures for this statement? No, have you? It was widely documented that Swindon were in absolute financial turmoil and what Di Canio had achieved there was phenomenal under the financial circumstances.
|
|