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Post by Jamo on the wing on Oct 23, 2012 10:36:30 GMT
There's no easy answer to this.
We are playing better football and creating more chances but we aren't getting shots away or when we do, we're not really doing it with much finesse or composure.
On the whole Jon is playing quite well BUT in a team devoid of goal scorers his inclusion will always be open for discussion.
As Rob has said Kightly probably hasn't been as good as Jon up to now but in my opinion I think we could look more threatening with him on the right and (a hopefully rejuvenated) Matty on the left.
There aren't really many alternatives as I can't see us pairing Owen with Crouch anytime soon.
That said we are coming off the back of a bloody tough start so I am happy to keep things as they are for a few more games to see if Jon and Kites's influence can increase against some of the divisions so called "lesser lights".
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 23, 2012 10:44:17 GMT
There's no easy answer to this. We are playing better football and creating more chances but we aren't getting shots away or when we do, we're not really doing it with much finesse or composure. On the whole Jon is playing quite well BUT in a team devoid of goal scorers his inclusion will always be open for discussion. As Rob has said Kightly probably hasn't been as good as Jon up to now but in my opinion I think we could look more threatening with him on the right and (a hopefully rejuvenated) Matty on the left. There aren't really many alternatives as I can't see us pairing Owen with Crouch anytime soon. That said we are coming off the back of a bloody tough start so I am happy to keep things as they are for a few more games to see if Jon and Kites's influence can increase against some of the divisions so called "lesser lights". We still badly lack pace in key areas. The really frustrating thing about us at the moment is imagining what damage Fuller could have done in this side. Possibly not the Ric of today but certainly the player he was 2 or 3 years ago.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Oct 23, 2012 10:45:31 GMT
There's no easy answer to this. We are playing better football and creating more chances but we aren't getting shots away or when we do, we're not really doing it with much finesse or composure. On the whole Jon is playing quite well BUT in a team devoid of goal scorers his inclusion will always be open for discussion. As Rob has said Kightly probably hasn't been as good as Jon up to now but in my opinion I think we could look more threatening with him on the right and (a hopefully rejuvenated) Matty on the left. There aren't really many alternatives as I can't see us pairing Owen with Crouch anytime soon. That said we are coming off the back of a bloody tough start so I am happy to keep things as they are for a few more games to see if Jon and Kites's influence can increase against some of the divisions so called "lesser lights". We still badly lack pace in key areas. The really frustrating thing about us at the moment is imagining what damage Fuller could have done in this side. Possibly not the Ric of today but certainly the player he was 2 or 3 years ago. Agreed, Foxy which is why I'm looking towards Matty coming back in and hopefully finding some form.
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 23, 2012 10:51:35 GMT
We still badly lack pace in key areas. The really frustrating thing about us at the moment is imagining what damage Fuller could have done in this side. Possibly not the Ric of today but certainly the player he was 2 or 3 years ago. Agreed, Foxy which is why I'm looking towards Matty coming back in and hopefully finding some form. Would be good, a firing Ethers would be preferable to Walters. I just wonder will we ever see that Matty again. I also think the longer Walters does a decent job the less TP is likely to drop him. We do look tougher defensively with Jon there and we all know how Tone loves his defending!!!
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Oct 23, 2012 10:54:23 GMT
Agreed, Foxy which is why I'm looking towards Matty coming back in and hopefully finding some form. Would be good, a firing Ethers would be preferable to Walters. I just wonder will we ever see that Matty again. I also think the longer Walters does a decent job the less TP is likely to drop him. We do look tougher defensively with Jon there and we all know how Tone loves his defending!!! A couple of Matty's sub appearances have given me some hope so we'll wait and see. That said I can't really see Tone dropping Jon anytime soon no matter who is in form or available.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 23, 2012 11:21:09 GMT
I love how some posters say this...a "sensible" view simply on the basis that it agrees with their own. Can such posters also stop going on about Pennant not scoring goals...how many did he create and how many games did he single handedly change. I used a good example earlier...remember Villa away last season? We were pretty shocking until he came on. Granted he has off the field problems but to even put him in the same bracket as Walters in terms of ability is simply insulting to the game and pretty foolish if you dont mind me saying. Theres a pretty good reason why Pennant has played for the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool and why Walters has spent his career in the lower leagues. Why does it take posters like yourself an eternity to realise i'm right. Rob I have to include you in this as well ;D You were both harping on about how Delap should be in the side this time last season when it was obvious he was not good enough. Ultimately I was right...and i'm pretty confident i'm right about this. Walters works hard, but ultimately isnt good enough at this level. Delap was playing well when you were whining about him Nick. You have your favourites who can do no wrong and your scapegoats who can do no right. The truth is usually closer to the middle ground. Credit where it's due and all that. Who is Walters keeping out of the team? In which case I'm just like TP who also has his favourites who can do no wrong It wasn't so much a case of Delap doing horrifically badly, but it was becoming obvious we were starting to carry him, similar to the way we have carried Walters for the last year or so. As for his replacement you are right in that we don't have options and TP has to prioritise a new winger in Jan. Personally against lesser teams id prefer to see Jerome in his place. Until January id like to see it alternate between Jerome, Etherington and possibly against the top sides I'd prefer even Cameron who will not only give 100 per cent but he will always have a go whether it's running at defenders of having a shot.
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Post by cousindupree on Oct 23, 2012 11:21:56 GMT
Although I got very frustrated seeing Walters get picked last season irrespective of form or fitness, I understood why the manager did it. OK he is a big Walters fan as he ticks the boxes that TP likes in a player, but while he favoured the defensive withdrawn striker role Walters was simply undroppable as we had nobody who could play that role. Now Walters is being utilised as a wide midfield player we do have options albeit options that are not as good as they were say one year ago. Pennant seemingly on his way out and Matty struggling to regain his earlier Stoke career form. In my view both if playing well are better footballers and offer more than JW. The good news is that there are better players out there to fill the wide midfield role than JW. For all his energy and commitment his finishing is woeful and at Prem level it costs dearly and you simply have to make the best of chances when they come along. Ok a high quality replacement will not come cheap but they are around and I would trade a bit of Walters energy for more ability and composure in front of goal. Adam Johnson of course would have been perfect, but its up to the manager to accept we need better than JW and go and find that player.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 11:28:07 GMT
Delap was playing well when you were whining about him Nick. You have your favourites who can do no wrong and your scapegoats who can do no right. The truth is usually closer to the middle ground. Credit where it's due and all that. Who is Walters keeping out of the team? In which case I'm just like TP who also has his favourites who can do no wrong It wasn't so much a case of Delap doing horrifically badly, but it was becoming obvious we were starting to carry him, similar to the way we have carried Walters for the last year or so. As for his replacement you are right in that we don't have options and TP has to prioritise a new winger in Jan. Personally against lesser teams id prefer to see Jerome in his place. Until January id like to see it alternate between Jerome, Etherington and possibly against the top sides I'd prefer even Cameron who will not only give 100 per cent but he will always have a go whether it's running at defenders of having a shot. And that's the nub. Options on that flank are limited. I too would prioritise a left sided player in Jan, but until then, looking at the options, it's either another square peg or Ethers. Ethers hasn't done much to warrant a place of late. Jerome might be better, might be a lot worse, hard to say - not averse to him getting a run. Cameron is not an option there at all IMO. For me, the point is that at the moment, the team is playing well and while things are looking promising there's not a huge need to change anything.
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Post by stokerstayinup on Oct 23, 2012 11:30:49 GMT
Walters,Sidibe,Heskey for England.Players like these will always divide opinion.I'm in the pro camp but I understand the dissenters' reasons for criticism.
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Post by adi on Oct 23, 2012 12:05:31 GMT
If people agree that we have a very capable defence, why do we need to sacrifice a striker to sit deep in midfield? Im pretty sure that supporters would rather have 2 out and out strikers who will get more goals, as its clearly the biggest problem for Stoke at the moment.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 23, 2012 12:10:55 GMT
If people agree that we have a very capable defence, why do we need to sacrifice a striker to sit deep in midfield? Im pretty sure that supporters would rather have 2 out and out strikers who will get more goals, as its clearly the biggest problem for Stoke at the moment. Fair point
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Post by PotteringThrough on Oct 23, 2012 12:11:47 GMT
Great Player, Great Attitude, 100% EVERY game, Looking brilliant as a wide man, Does a cracking job in about 3/4 positions and is a lovely guy (met him twice) who appreciates being a professional footballer after his set backs he has had. Please stop the bashing because without him....we would miss him massively. Keep it up SJW! I like him too and what he brings to the team. Fingers crossed he can't start scoring and creating a few more goals, beginning this weekend.
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 23, 2012 12:12:29 GMT
If people agree that we have a very capable defence, why do we need to sacrifice a striker to sit deep in midfield? Im pretty sure that supporters would rather have 2 out and out strikers who will get more goals, as its clearly the biggest problem for Stoke at the moment. Who is the second out and out striker? Personally I quite like the system that seems to be evolving......Adam sitting in the deep lying attacking role with Nzonzi and a n other alongside him doing the graft and simple stuff. I too would love to see a flying winger who is disciplined enough to keep our defensive shape. Hopefully that will be Ethers, maybe it will be a new signing. I really can't see it being Jerome but you never know. Until the better option is there then I don't think Walters deserves dropping.
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Post by glasseater on Oct 23, 2012 12:20:18 GMT
Let's face it, he's not all that technical and doesn't have much skill. What he does bring is dedication, attitude, positivity and morale. He rally's the team and chases down every ball. He's our hardest working player and that sets the tone of any match. If KJ, Pennant or Jerome worked that hard they'd be at a top 6 club, but they don't and that's why we are able to afford/keep them at our club. If Walters had their skill he'd be at a top 6 club. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice a little here and there. It's about balance!
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Post by pez75 on Oct 23, 2012 12:27:22 GMT
Let's face it, he's not all that technical and doesn't have much skill. What he does bring is dedication, attitude, positivity and morale. He rally's the team and chases down every ball. He's our hardest working player and that sets the tone of any match. If KJ, Pennant or Jerome worked that hard they'd be at a top 6 club, but they don't and that's why we are able to afford/keep them at our club. If Walters had their skill he'd be at a top 6 club. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice a little here and there. It's about balance! What a crock... Are you suggesting that if you rolled KJ CJ & JW together you would end up with a Rooney? My arse. All 3 of them have more than one ingredient missing, and the main one that all of them are missing is prolificacy in front of goal.
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Post by expectedtoulouse on Oct 23, 2012 12:35:43 GMT
You can't knock Walters in terms of his effort - that's second to none but as others have said, the issue is what he does on the ball. The manager admitted that he needed more competition in wide areas so bought a winger in the summer. After half a season playing a combination of central midfielders and central defenders on the wing, we then go and let our best winger go on loan to a club we've just purchased an inferior winger from. It doesn't make sense!
Walters doesn't create much, he can't cross, take a man on and his finishing is in the class of Sidibe's. He's not much use to us on the wing. That's not really his fault. Ok, he could stay behind after training and work on his finishing, but the issue lies with the manager.
Our biggest weakness is our inability to score goals. If we're playing with 1 upfront, then our wide men either need to create a lot or be able to finish too. Walters does neither.
Etherington should be starting. He's made some very positive sub appearances and his set piece delivery is good. He also gives us some balance given that Adam is the only other left footer in the team.
Then we should either have Pennant or Kightly on the right. I think Pennant is the better player and from an outsiders point of view he's been treated disgracefully. Made all the right noises in the media and changed games when he came on last season (Wolves & Villa away). He puts in a good shift defensively, is better at set pieces and his end product is better than Kightly's. However, Kightly is the better goalscorer out of the 2 of them, so ideally there'd be fierce competition between the 2 of them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 12:38:44 GMT
Pennant only has Pennant to blame.
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Post by glasseater on Oct 23, 2012 12:46:05 GMT
Let's face it, he's not all that technical and doesn't have much skill. What he does bring is dedication, attitude, positivity and morale. He rally's the team and chases down every ball. He's our hardest working player and that sets the tone of any match. If KJ, Pennant or Jerome worked that hard they'd be at a top 6 club, but they don't and that's why we are able to afford/keep them at our club. If Walters had their skill he'd be at a top 6 club. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice a little here and there. It's about balance! What a crock... Are you suggesting that if you rolled KJ CJ & JW together you would end up with a Rooney? My arse. All 3 of them have more than one ingredient missing, and the main one that all of them are missing is prolificacy in front of goal. I didn't say that. I just said they'd be playing for a better team. And KJ can bang them in on his day, he has the skill to do it, we just never know which KJ will turn up. And most often we get the one that feels sorry for himself.
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Post by Danstoke82 on Oct 23, 2012 12:49:12 GMT
I thought Walters was brought to the club as a striker, to score goals?.
There's no doubting his commitment to the club or his effort but for the sake of scoring goals, there are other forwards at the club who have proved they can do that, SJW isn't doing that and is not converting some clear cut chances.
Jerome has shown that when given a chance he is capable of bringing much needed pace up front to play alongside Crouch, tapping in a few goals along the way, yet he is being ignored by the manager who deems a player to put in more effort as an attacking player as a greater threat on the oppositions goal box, going by the stat that started this thread, it clearly shows that the manager may have got it wrong with his continued selection of Walters ahead of a player like Jerome or even Owen for instance.
For me, I'd rather see Jon come off the bench in the second half but then I'm not Tony Pulis.
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Post by lordb on Oct 23, 2012 12:50:58 GMT
same team for Saturday then?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 12:52:51 GMT
I thought Walters was brought to the club as a striker, to score goals?. There's no doubting his commitment to the club or his effort but for the sake of scoring goals, there are other forwards at the club who have proved they can do that, SJW isn't doing that and is not converting some clear cut chances. Jerome has shown that when given a chance he is capable of bringing much needed pace up front to play alongside Crouch, tapping in a few goals along the way, yet he is being ignored by the manager who deems a player to put in more effort as an attacking player as a greater threat on the oppositions goal box, going by the stat that started this thread, it clearly shows that the manager may have got it wrong with his continued selection of Walters ahead of a player like Jerome or even Owen for instance. For me, I'd rather see Jon come off the bench in the second half but then I'm not Tony Pulis. Walters is playing on the wing.
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Post by whereami on Oct 23, 2012 12:54:34 GMT
The Rooney comparisons are interesting since he gets dropped when he's not performing. Are we saying that relatively, Walters is a better/more integral player for us then Rooney is for manu?
Also Rob id say thats missing the point - Once we're being told that the manager has no problem with the player, either he should have as much chance to prove himself as any other player or we're being lied to, which equates to the manager genuinely thinking over the last 10 months that Shotton/Walters are better options then Pennant or he's lying to us.
The relative treatment of Pennant/Walters shows a flaw in Pulis's thinking that we've been through too many times before, and is something he needs to fix if he's to become a better manager
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 12:59:13 GMT
The Rooney comparisons are interesting since he gets dropped when he's not performing. Are we saying that relatively, Walters is a better/more integral player for us then Rooney is for manu? Also Rob id say thats missing the point - Once we're being told that the manager has no problem with the player, either he should have as much chance to prove himself as any other player or we're being lied to, which equates to the manager genuinely thinking over the last 10 months that Shotton/Walters are better options then Pennant or he's lying to us. The relative treatment of Pennant/Walters shows a flaw in Pulis's thinking that we've been through too many times before, and is something he needs to fix if he's to become a better manager I think it's naive to think fans of any club are told the 100% gospel truth about what goes on in the dressing room (and rightly so). Pennant hasn't helped himself at all. I think Walters should have been dropped last year, certainly.
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Post by expectedtoulouse on Oct 23, 2012 13:04:12 GMT
Pennant only has Pennant to blame. True but I'm not sure what he's being penalised for? In the grand scheme of things, is posting on twitter a massive issue? I'd understand him being frozen out of the club for posting stuff which was slagging the manager, club, other players, fans etc off, but he doesn't. He mostly posts positive comments about the fans and the club. There may have been an issue with a curfew or whatever at an away game more or less a year ago, but according to both Pulis and Pennant there is no problem between them and he is not in the team due to competition. What is Pennant to blame for?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 13:12:39 GMT
Pennant only has Pennant to blame. True but I'm not sure what he's being penalised for? In the grand scheme of things, is posting on twitter a massive issue? I'd understand him being frozen out of the club for posting stuff which was slagging the manager, club, other players, fans etc off, but he doesn't. He mostly posts positive comments about the fans and the club. There may have been an issue with a curfew or whatever at an away game more or less a year ago, but according to both Pulis and Pennant there is no problem between them and he is not in the team due to competition. What is Pennant to blame for? Breaking curfews, getting done for drink-driving, continuing to tweet ill-advised things (the Huddlestone leak, essentially implying you think your manager is a dick) knowing full well your manager is obsessed with keeping things in-house and hates Twitter...
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Post by monstermunch on Oct 23, 2012 14:29:11 GMT
He came off last weekend Saturday for Matty I think it was so hopefully Tony is changing something maybe?
I don't mind Walters, he has a key role to how we play our football, without him, we won't be that effective IMO.
When was the last time he started on the bench though? :S
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Post by stokeyouth on Oct 23, 2012 16:22:53 GMT
Pennant only has Pennant to blame. True but I'm not sure what he's being penalised for? In the grand scheme of things, is posting on twitter a massive issue? I'd understand him being frozen out of the club for posting stuff which was slagging the manager, club, other players, fans etc off, but he doesn't. He mostly posts positive comments about the fans and the club. There may have been an issue with a curfew or whatever at an away game more or less a year ago, but according to both Pulis and Pennant there is no problem between them and he is not in the team due to competition. What is Pennant to blame for? In fairness he does slag the manager off a fair bit on Twitter. Someone asked him out of 10 how much of a wanker Pulis is, and Pennant said I wish I could mate but I can't. He mght as well have said 10 ;D And another time someone asked him why Jerome/Pennant aren't playing(this was last season when jerome started scoring) and he Pennant said some of us are thinking the same. So theres obviously a group who dislike Pulis/think they should play and a lot at the time oflast season agreed. But still Pennant has said some shitty stuff
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Post by jarhead on Oct 23, 2012 21:12:25 GMT
All he needs is a treadmill and Jon will be happy,he clearly aint happy when he has a ball at his feet because his finishing is pathetic and crucially its costing us big time. Lowest scorers again this season if he continues in the team unless we get a penalty in every game from now on. He has no composure or technique when striking a ball and he's a forward ffs!!! Time to play A REAL GOAL SCORER!!!To play on the right? So you want to have a square peg in a round hole? Have you not been moaning about this for ever. Err,Where have i said play him on the right ie Owen....????????????????? I AINT!!! Change the system certainly at home because believe it or not Crouch and Owen have a great record together and at international level aswell but lets ignore that and enjoy Jon running around and doing fuck all and missing chances......WELL DONE!
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Post by expectedtoulouse on Oct 23, 2012 22:39:06 GMT
True but I'm not sure what he's being penalised for? In the grand scheme of things, is posting on twitter a massive issue? I'd understand him being frozen out of the club for posting stuff which was slagging the manager, club, other players, fans etc off, but he doesn't. He mostly posts positive comments about the fans and the club. There may have been an issue with a curfew or whatever at an away game more or less a year ago, but according to both Pulis and Pennant there is no problem between them and he is not in the team due to competition. What is Pennant to blame for? In fairness he does slag the manager off a fair bit on Twitter. Someone asked him out of 10 how much of a wanker Pulis is, and Pennant said I wish I could mate but I can't. He mght as well have said 10 ;D And another time someone asked him why Jerome/Pennant aren't playing(this was last season when jerome started scoring) and he Pennant said some of us are thinking the same. So theres obviously a group who dislike Pulis/think they should play and a lot at the time oflast season agreed. But still Pennant has said some shitty stuff So will we never see Crouch again because he's been banned from driving? The gaffer should be banned from driving too but for Mr Loophole. Given the amount of money involved, isnt it a bit petty to be ousting youre best players because of twitter? Tevez decided to fuck off to Argentina for the winter months last season and Man City haven't decided to sod him off out on loan to Stockport and rinse their hands of him. Oh no, they got him back to help them win the title and theyre now getting their moneys worth from him, yet Pennant (in the scheme of things) has hardly done anything and we've fucked him off despite only having Championship standard cover.
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Post by swampySCFC on Oct 23, 2012 22:44:18 GMT
Started 57+? Premier League games now IN A ROW for Stoke City scoring a grand total of 12 goals? and 4/5 of them have been penalty's. I wonder when Pulis will drop this poor excuse of a footballer? Really what does he offer? other than a high energy level? No wonder we are always bottom of the goals scored table, £100m+ spent and still plays a League One player EVERY GAME without fail. No wonder other players sit on the bench pissed off, because no matter what they do they wont get picked. I think you made it a very large one ???
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