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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 11:18:38 GMT
It is all about immigration and stopping the boats. It relates to the Home Office drafted bill sponsored by the now former Hone Secretary, Suella Braverman, called the Illegal Migration Bill. It is about supposedly stopping the boats of asylum seekers. It is about immigration far more than about foreign policy. Else it would have been a foreign office minister and not the Home Sec speaking in the Commons about it yesterday. It impacts on foreign policy because it badly damages our reputation and standing in the world. I didn't need the lesson, but thanks. Your original point was both issues were a waste of HoC time and we should be focusing on domestic issues. I disagree in so far as these issues impact our standing in the world and they aren't just "dick measuring" as you claim. The Government has now turned an asylum issue from the Home Office into a Foreign Policy issue by creating a stupid legal device. Setting up a treaty and unilaterally claiming Rwanda to be safe in contradiction of all the evidence from the police and others. Additionally, the Government abstaining from UN votes on Gaza and domestically supporting an extended war in the Middle East by implication is something that citizens of the UK should care about. That's why I disagree with your original point of view that it's irrelevant. Fair enough. I just don’t see what is important about a SNP amendment to the King’s Speech that was never, ever going to pass. The government abstaining from the UN votes are of far more significance and importance, but have barely made the press compared with shadow cabinet resignations over a vote which is entirely designed for political purposes rather than for the good of the country. It is playing politics. It doesn’t help in Gaza. The UN votes were far more important for foreign policy and I stand by it being a waste of Commons time. Until we see the contents of the mystery treaty, I don’t know whether it will be primarily a foreign policy matter, a Home Office matter or a trade matter (or most likely some sort of combination). Ultimately it is about immigration and deporting a drop in the ocean of migrants that come here. It is irrelevant and a massive distraction to more important matters of government business that I think should be dictating focus of our leaders. Again, it is a waste of time. This government in particular loves a culture war above everything else.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 9:06:42 GMT
Yes, but then have an adult debate about it. The votes on Gaza were always going to lose and were entirely for the purpose of giving Starmer a headache. There was no other purpose. The SNP wanted to humiliate Starmer, not bring about a ceasefire. They knew their amendment would lose and so the signal to the world is that it is absolutely clear the UK does not support a ceasefire. So well done SNP for getting that confirmed and on Hansard. And Rwanda is nothing to do with foreign policy. I don't see how you can say the PM concocting a new legally binding treaty with Rwanda and declaring them a safe state isn't foreign policy 🤔. It is all about immigration and stopping the boats. It relates to the Home Office drafted bill sponsored by the now former Hone Secretary, Suella Braverman, called the Illegal Migration Bill. It is about supposedly stopping the boats of asylum seekers. It is about immigration far more than about foreign policy. Else it would have been a foreign office minister and not the Home Sec speaking in the Commons about it yesterday. It impacts on foreign policy because it badly damages our reputation and standing in the world.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 8:35:12 GMT
An unlawful policy trying to deport asylum seekers is left wing? What in your mind is right wing then!? Not wearing a poppy. No, you never upset a rightwing gobshite by being unpleasant to foreigners.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 8:16:11 GMT
Hamas and Israel don’t. What the British public want is irrelevant. I wish the House of Commons would focus on their jobs rather than having pointless dick measuring votes that have no impact on anything about Gaza, or worrying about whether a few hundred people each year can be deported to Rwanda. The position a country would (or should) take on the international stage and at the UN does make a difference. How the country abides by legally binding commitments impacts future treaties and relations. Foreign policy does matter to the British electorate. The public rarely hits the streets in numbers on domestic issues like they do when they disagree with international affairs. Yes, but then have an adult debate about it. The votes on Gaza were always going to lose and were entirely for the purpose of giving Starmer a headache. There was no other purpose. The SNP wanted to humiliate Starmer, not bring about a ceasefire. They knew their amendment would lose and so the signal to the world is that it is absolutely clear the UK does not support a ceasefire. So well done SNP for getting that confirmed and on Hansard. And Rwanda is nothing to do with foreign policy.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 7:50:17 GMT
Yes, and it was a much, much worse day for the right. The flagship policy of the tory government for the last few years utterly failed. The tories are left too. An unlawful policy trying to deport asylum seekers is left wing? What in your mind is right wing then!?
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 7:47:41 GMT
Terrible day for the left Yes, and it was a much, much worse day for the right. The flagship policy of the tory government for the last few years utterly failed.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 7:46:44 GMT
Labour are morons. Just flat out morons. The Conservative Party are crumbling, so what does Labour decide to do? Fall to pieces at the same time to help them out 😂 They are such a pathetically weak and inept opposition. Starmer could have easily avoided this by instructing a free vote rather than a three line whip. Idiotic decision. Is it strong leadership to stick to your guns as he did, or to admit he cannot control his party and to flake and give a free vote? He cannot win. Which was the entire purpose of the utterly pointless votes last night. To cause difficulties for Starmer. In my opinion there should be no such thing as a whip. Every MP should always get a free vote, but if in government ministers should have to resign if they vote against the government. Shadow ministers aren’t ministers. Who cares what they do.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 7:43:35 GMT
Labour are morons. Just flat out morons. The Conservative Party are crumbling, so what does Labour decide to do? Fall to pieces at the same time to help them out 😂 They are such a pathetically weak and inept opposition. I have said for ages, the biggest danger to the Labour Party failing to win the next election is the Labour Party itself.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 7:34:33 GMT
The irony about "do the right thing". Fuck off Keith 76% of the public want a ceasefire. Doing the right thing my arse. Hamas and Israel don’t. What the British public want is irrelevant. I wish the House of Commons would focus on their jobs rather than having pointless dick measuring votes that have no impact on anything about Gaza, or worrying about whether a few hundred people each year can be deported to Rwanda.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 7:29:19 GMT
The Jewish vote or the Muslim vote. Or more apt, a conscience vote. A vote to say Israel will cease firing and Hamas to continue their evil work. A vote that Israel and Hamas couldn’t care less about. It is all symbolic nonsense. We have no influence whatsoever. So why don’t our elected MPs focus on issues that impact us. Like the cost of living crisis. Or the housing reform bill.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 16, 2023 6:59:48 GMT
So what’s the difference between a ceasefire and a humanitarian pause? And what difference does it make to the reality in the Middle East what the opposition in the UK says about it?
It is all completely irrelevant.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2023 13:50:05 GMT
Disagree with you on that. Suella had already asked Sunak to approve a Plan B as she was concerned that the Supreme Court would dismiss her appeal saying that this would run the risk of putting the policy of stopping the boats back to square one. The only person to look twattish is the PM. BTW the dismissal of her appeal by SC was not based of politics but the simple fact that there was no safeguards with Rwanda to prevent genuine refugees and asylum seekers from being deported back to their original country which is illegal. I don’t think this is the end of the Rwanda project if cleverly gets his head around the refoulement issue. Out of interest what was Suellas Plan B? Did she have one or is she trying to blame Sunak for her failings? It's just words again. She's been in the position over a year, why did she wait till she's sacked to mention these plan B concerns when it felt like she never had a plan b to begin with. She speaks a load of shite. Opportunist. She overseen record levels of immigration that's the only fact here. It was to leave the convention on human rights. Which the Supreme Court said in their judgment would not make the act lawful.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2023 13:48:55 GMT
Yeah, that's my thinking too. The Tories core vote is rarely much less than 30% at GE time. The current polls may well be much worse than that and entirely reflective of the mood of the country, and understandably so, but at GE time it's likely to be much closer for the reasons you state and simple, unthinking tribal voting patterns. Some good news for the govt at last. Inflation down. Even better news for ordinary people as they deal with the cost of living. That good news may well get dwarfed by the Supreme Court's verdict on Rwanda but if that goes the government's way too poor old Suella will be looking even more twattish.Disagree with you on that. Suella had already asked Sunak to approve a Plan B as she was concerned that the Supreme Court would dismiss her appeal saying that this would run the risk of putting the policy of stopping the boats back to square one. The only person to look twattish is the PM. BTW the dismissal of her appeal by SC was not based of politics but the simple fact that there was no safeguards with Rwanda to prevent genuine refugees and asylum seekers from being deported back to their original country which is illegal. I don’t think this is the end of the Rwanda project if cleverly gets his head around the refoulement issue. Suella wrote on page one of her illegal migration bill that the bill was unlawful. She is an absolute joke. She knew it was unlawful and yet she litigated and lost. How much money has been wasted on this policy which never would have stopped the boats anyway!?
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2023 13:38:25 GMT
Or, to go from an 80 seat majority to losing the next election would be the biggest failure of any political party in this country ever. For Labour to win back seats in the red wall, win back much of Scotland and manage to make up a majority it would be a monumental achievement by them. But you are absolutely right that voting Tory at the last election was a huge mistake for all those that did. Many things would have been bad under Corbyn perhaps, but at least he would have done what he could to protect the poor and vulnerable at the expense of the rich during a crippling cost of living crisis and covid pandemic, rather than protect the rich at the expense of all others which is what the tories have done. I never said that did I? Hindsight is a fine art and the millions that did, including me, did so because we were sick to the back teeth of the Brexit process, whether you were for or against, taking so much parliamentary time and Boris's "let’s get it done" resonated with many many voters including traditional labour strongholds in the so called red wall. I never regretted voting Tories at the time the same as I would never regret not voting labour. Roll forward 4 years with the mess that two unelected PMs have made plus Boris eventually making a fool of himself mostly outside of the political decision making arena leaves me, and probably many other dyed in the wool Tories, with the dilemma of who to vote for in the next GE. Sunak has been too focussed on the economy imo at the expense of other important issues some of which were in Boris's 2019 manifesto and some that have emerged since. For example it seems Suella Braverman was correct in her letter to the PM when she urged him to have a plan B, which he wouldn’t, if the Rwanda project was rejected by the Supreme Court or we would be back to starting point. This has now happened. I don’t agree that a victory would be a "monumental achievement" given the state of the Tories, and SNP for that matter, which should hand them the expected landslide. In 52 years as a voter I’ve never felt more in the political wilderness than I do at present. Sounds like buyer’s remorse to me. When has the opposition overturned such a large majority?
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2023 9:13:09 GMT
When the crunch comes the Tories will do better in the election than people think. The media will influence the next election and become less critical of the government and go after Labour a lot more. It wouldn't surprise me if it's a hung parliament. For the last 3 years or more the Tories are the gift that keeps on giving and anything but a labour landslide would be an abject failure for Starmer and his nest of imbeciles imo. Or, to go from an 80 seat majority to losing the next election would be the biggest failure of any political party in this country ever. For Labour to win back seats in the red wall, win back much of Scotland and manage to make up a majority it would be a monumental achievement by them. But you are absolutely right that voting Tory at the last election was a huge mistake for all those that did. Many things would have been bad under Corbyn perhaps, but at least he would have done what he could to protect the poor and vulnerable at the expense of the rich during a crippling cost of living crisis and covid pandemic, rather than protect the rich at the expense of all others which is what the tories have done.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2023 9:02:16 GMT
When the crunch comes the Tories will do better in the election than people think. The media will influence the next election and become less critical of the government and go after Labour a lot more. It wouldn't surprise me if it's a hung parliament. Yeah, that's my thinking too. The Tories core vote is rarely much less than 30% at GE time. The current polls may well be much worse than that and entirely reflective of the mood of the country, and understandably so, but at GE time it's likely to be much closer for the reasons you state and simple, unthinking tribal voting patterns. Some good news for the govt at last. Inflation down. Even better news for ordinary people as they deal with the cost of living. That good news may well get dwarfed by the Supreme Court's verdict on Rwanda but if that goes the government's way too poor old Suella will be looking even more twattish. Although I think it is an immoral policy, in some ways I want the Supreme Court to allow deportation to Rwanda. Then, when 300 fly there in February next year and the boats haven’t stopped, everyone can see the policy for what it is. A way to stoke the culture wars. It will have no meaningful impact whatsoever on boat crossings as it will deport a few thousand a year, maximum. What about the other 40,000 who cross each year?
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2023 8:59:25 GMT
Good news that Sunak has hit his target of halving inflation by the end of this year. Prices are still increasing quickly, but just not as quickly as this time last year. Sunak didn’t do anything to hit this target. A doormat could have hit the target. It was inevitable the Bank of England would increase interest rates and prices couldn’t then keep increasing at the rate they were this time last year (which is the comparative factor remember).
Anyway, over the past two years, the cost of energy has increased by 49% while food prices have risen by 28% – far greater than the 14% increase in average earnings over this period.
Yet energy costs not much more for the suppliers than it did 2 years ago….their profits have massively increased and Subak has decided not to tax those profits properly to take from the super rich and give to the general population.
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Israel
Nov 15, 2023 8:40:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by oggyoggy on Nov 15, 2023 8:40:55 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 14, 2023 17:22:13 GMT
I'm unsure to what extent 'blocking off the ECHR and the HRA' she was planning? She surely can't have meant for the whole nation on all matters? That would seem somewhat suicidal. Mind you if she's prepared to ignore them on one issue.. She just meant just to stop the boats. But it would have been unlawful and lost to a legal challenge. So it would have been utterly pointless and expensive to the taxpayer. You can’t opt out of human rights obligations.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 14, 2023 8:50:40 GMT
We could do the role as a job share You could be the Clegg to my Cameron definitely 😉 We could be the Righteous Brothers
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 14, 2023 8:43:35 GMT
He’d have to understand the term first 🤣🤣🤣 We could do the role as a job share
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 14, 2023 8:42:57 GMT
It seems obvious that today's Conservative Re-shuffle is an admission that the Red Wall seats can't be contested In order to avoid a total wipe out including in Blue Wall seats it's an attempt to give Conservative Voters a reason to actually Vote and not even worse Vote Lib Dem or Reform. The big losers today are the Lib Dems and Reform are strongest in Traditional Labour areas so are unlikely to gain much if any Electoral Success. When the inevitable happens the Conservatives can have a Leadership Election to win the soul of the Party either Right or far Right The vast majority of British people are middle ground and may sway slightly Left or Right of Centre but not far Left like Corbyn nor Far Right like Braverman The Lib Dems could take lots of seats around the outskirts of London and in Surrey where labour has no realistic chance (my area of Richmond for example). Sacking Braverman and appointing Cameron is to mitigate that. Will Sunak become more centrist with policy? Without U turning on his recent approach to net zero his abandonment of the environment his mitigation may be meaningless.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 14, 2023 8:37:34 GMT
You know I quit that filthy term a while back Bluers. I think you'd be an excellent minister against wokery. He’d have to understand the term first
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 13, 2023 19:12:22 GMT
Just having a government willing to respect international and domestic law would be a massive step in the right direction. I don’t think people are asking for that much as we all know our economy has been absolutely ruined by the tories. I suspect people will be expecting public services to improve but wheres the money coming from? - its going to be very tricky which is why Labour have been busily rowing back on past promises. How about taxing the wealth of all the newly minted multi millionaires the tories gave everyone else’s money to? Tax their wealth to pay for improvements to public services to benefit the majority. That’s what I would do.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 13, 2023 17:57:19 GMT
I think if you compare Camerons era to the last 7 it looks succesful in contrast but I see that more as an indictment on how bad the last 7 years have been. The one thing which always sticks with me in the build up to 2010 was the focus on the economy, debt, borrowing, labour can't be trusted with the economy etc.. The only difference between now and 2010 is all the above has gotten much worse. The tabloids don't speak about it but it certainly hasn't disappeared. I doubt the average person knows how bad it has gotten given the media's blackout on it. I think the electorate are going to be in for a bit of a shock when Starmer strolls into power next year. Hes not proposing anything radically different and he's going to have very little room to maneuvre economically. He certainly wont be able to splash the goodies like Blair. Just having a government willing to respect international and domestic law would be a massive step in the right direction. I don’t think people are asking for that much as we all know our economy has been absolutely ruined by the tories.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 13, 2023 17:54:33 GMT
You need to separate the coalition with Cameron government post-coalition. During the coalition, the lib dems were able to water down the worst of austerity and the tories. They did some progressive things largely stolen from the lib dem manifesto. In the Cameron government after the coalition austerity got much worse and the progressive policies generally dried up and then we got to the brexit referendum, the shit hit the fan and everything since has been an unmitigated disaster in every single way. Cameron isn’t a lunatic like most ministers since the Johnson government got in. But that isn’t a ringing endorsement that “he isn’t a lunatic”. He's a tw*t just a professional one. That’s a good way of putting it
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 13, 2023 17:39:47 GMT
“Effectively millions of people are disenfranchised because if you aren't in a marginal constituency your vote is worthless unless you vote for the dominant party.” In my opinion, this is mainly true because when fractures happen, they only come from one direction. As such, a right wing voter is left with the choice of voting for Tory, or voting for the party they believe in more but knowing that if they do, Labour will win. If two parties are born at the same time to represent actual opposites of the spectrum, then a vote not for Tory doesn’t equate to a vote for Labour (as everyone will be making the same decision, rather than just one side). Then you have representation of choices. If not enough people still don’t want the new left/right party to win in their constituency, then they won’t. PR coming into UK elections is about as likely as what I’ve just suggested. No party in power will carry it out unless they have VERY strong evidence to suggest that in doing so, they’d take even more seats next time (which is kind of against the point of PR). Plus of course we had a referendum on PR (taht was the Libs price for joining the coalition) which saw a very low turnout & a resounding defeat for PR The biggest political error in modern history. Had we got PR, this country would be so much better than now.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 13, 2023 17:39:01 GMT
I've no time for Lord Snooty's but I actually thought Cameron and the coalition government did a reasonable job of governing considering the difficult circumstances in 2010. Certainly when you compare it to the successors. The Tory right have completely lost their marbles if they think Braverman has any chance with the wider electorate. Hmmm, Brexit referendum aside, I agree. It's got gradually worse since though and that's as a direct result of the referendum to a large degree. He's not an elected MP though so he shouldn't be anywhere near the cabinet. You need to separate the coalition with Cameron government post-coalition. During the coalition, the lib dems were able to water down the worst of austerity and the tories. They did some progressive things largely stolen from the lib dem manifesto. In the Cameron government after the coalition austerity got much worse and the progressive policies generally dried up and then we got to the brexit referendum, the shit hit the fan and everything since has been an unmitigated disaster in every single way. Cameron isn’t a lunatic like most ministers since the Johnson government got in. But that isn’t a ringing endorsement that “he isn’t a lunatic”.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 13, 2023 15:02:39 GMT
On a serious note Tobias Ellwood from the commons or if we are including those from the Lords then Sayeeda Warsi would also have been a decent choice. Two of the last sane Tories still around
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 13, 2023 15:00:57 GMT
Absolutely desperate with a party devoid of talented in elected officials. That’s the only reason to call on Cameron. True story: my wife once made Cameron pick up dog shit. He did it without his butler (or security staff). Well done your wife!! Just want to kow, did it come from his dog or was it just radomly lying there? It came from dogs he was with (not his dogs). He said at the time “I’m not much of a dog person” and “this one is a prolific crapper”.
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