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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 14, 2009 1:15:41 GMT
They are surely one and the same thing. everybodys answer would be different, might be the same to you but to somebody else possibly not Hmmm ... yeah, that is the point, isn't it?
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Jan 14, 2009 3:18:49 GMT
making a criminal case is absolutely ridiculous and over the top. What a waste of police time not to mention court and lawyer fees that have to be paid by the government to try these "suspects" Im sure all the bank robbers and murderers are out there having a right laugh over this, not to mention booking there next crime in during the next spurs home match when all the cops will be there!
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Post by Somebody_Told_Me on Jan 14, 2009 8:15:16 GMT
Sorry guys I interprated the chant to "hanging from a tree." as racist, didn't think of other meanings.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 14, 2009 10:43:00 GMT
The Cambell chant was homophobic but what takes it over the line for me is willing someone who has mental problems to hang themselves That chant is scraping the barrell and Spurs should make an effort with their fans to get rid Surely as bad/worse than most racist chants? Things like this have always been 'fair game'. There's even a mainstream book called "there's only two Andy Goram's" Schizophrenia is a horrible disorder and the chant misunderstands the nature of the illness but it is also wonderfully, darkly funny the first time you hear it and reflects the creativity and gallows humour of the football terrace perfectly. People need to get a little bit more of a life.
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 14, 2009 10:57:51 GMT
What an interesting debate and well done to Glynburton for bringing it up. Also, well done Paul for acting as Devil's Advocate so well. Let me just say that I wouldn't join in with any of the chants except 'who's the bastard in the black?' I find some of them offensive. Very offensive. However, it brings up two major issues for me. Pmac and others have highlighted one. Where is all this PC bullshit going to stop? We've even got into the situation now where banter between friends is spied on and made a political issue. The other is the legitimate? use of chants that are specifically directed to hurt an individual. Regarding the latter, although I might wince at hearing the chants, I reckon it's all part of the game we support. It has to be all or nothing. Yes, we are entitled to show our own disgust at some of the language used, but that's it. If you don't like it, the simple answer is change the sport you're watching to something more suitable for your constitution. The same applies to the players. If they don't want enter the cauldron of passion that is football, including the horrible chants they might be on the end of for some reason, they can take up netball or something similar. So in conclusion, I reckon the police getting involved in this particular issue is crazy. For a start, the interpretaion of the chant is ambiguous. HIV is no longer the domain of homosexuals. Racism? I can't see any of it in the chant unless you're deliberately looking to clutch at straws to make a case. IMHO, the chant is awful but a legitimate part of the game as it stands now. I suspect that in another 20 years, chanting anything hurtful will be regarded just as bad as racism. OS.
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Post by Premier League Busta Rhymes on Jan 14, 2009 10:58:26 GMT
I wonder if Spurs fans who get subjected to horrendous Jewish taunts / abuse when they travel to the like of Old Trafford / Arsenal will get any justice if they complain? I very much doubt it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 14, 2009 14:40:38 GMT
Mick the thing that I find most disturbing about these prosecutions is the arbitrary nature in which they have been dished out.
This is a modern witch hunt with potentially very serious consequences for all football supporters everywhere.
Tottenham fans have been singing this chant for years now, the youngest of those in the dock next week was still at primary school when it first began.
So why are they being hunted down now?
A lot of the kids in block 19 don't even know what 'The Runway Song' is really about, but they join in with it, because it's got a helluva catchy melody and they wish to emulate their peers who belt it out with gusto.
It is without doubt though a THOROUGHLY OFFENSIVE chant.
Does this mean however, that because it is offensive to some (or indeed many), that in a couple of weeks time, those Block Nineteeners should wake up one morning to find their faces plastered all over the morning papers deemed to be the evil pariahs of modern football?
Of course they shouldn't, but this is EXACTLY what has happened to the Spurs fans in question.
Not only have they had to endure the indignity and humiliation of being smeared in the press, they all now also face a LIFE TIME BAN from British football.
Irrespective of what punishment the courts dish out next week, the FA have said that if found guilty, they will ban the defendants from every UK football ground for the remainder of their lives!
One of the defendants is a 13 year old kid for FFS!
I said earlier in the thread that I find, what Skip described as the '****' chant, that we hear sung by hundreds if not thousands of Stokies at every game, to be offensive in the extreme. If a retarded person or their family were to complain to the police after the Man City game, or even if there were complaints made from people at home watching on TV, are all of those Stoke supporters that were standing up with their arms aloft, fair game for prosecution and a potential lifetime ban from football?
On a subtler note, I think if they make these prosecutions stick, then the authorities run a real risk of opening up a very messy Pandoras Box.
I have to say I've always had a bit of an issue with the Kick Racism Out Of Football Campaign.
My major problem with it being ... why is it so selective?
Why don't we have a Kick PREJUDICE Out Of Football Campaign?
How comes it's not okay to be prejudiced against somebody because of their race, but it's still okay to be prejudiced against any manner of other things?
The reason quite simply is because they knew they would never be able to enforce it in football stadia.
So far they've managed to get away with a half baked scheme, but they run a real danger if they push ahead with these prosecutions, of finding themselves in a position where theyare going to have allow all or nothing.
My inference being that if the Spurs supporters are found guilty, then prejudiced or offensive chanting of ANY nature will be have to be banned in football grounds per se, and if they don't, then they will have to allow ALL prejudiced and offensive chanting including racist chanting.
The way things are at at the moment, it's kinda (just) working, but I really do feel that these prosecutions have been ill thought out and could lead to some quite unsavoury consequences for all of us in the future.
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Post by spitthedog on Jan 14, 2009 15:08:17 GMT
'Not only have they had to endure the indignity and humiliation of being smeared in the press, they all now also face a LIFE TIME BAN from British football.'
Paul, Do you really think these 'people' have any concept of dignity or humiliation???
you must be joking!!!!!
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Post by mcf on Jan 14, 2009 15:32:50 GMT
If these blokes get done, then it will be the day when I think about packing all of it in. Attending football matches is one of the rare occasions when you can 'let go' a bit, without doing any real harm to anybody. It is one of the occasions when you don't have to act all refined and proper and can actually be a bit of a **** if you so desire. Without the 'fun' element, does anybody honestly believe that there is enough entertainment in the game to make make it worth attending. The trouble is, there are too many law makers knocking around that just don't understand the essence of life, let alone football. Even the most fuddy duddy of posters (Wise One) must agree that the police should have better things to do than give a shit about football chants.
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ackney
Youth Player
Posts: 457
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Post by ackney on Jan 14, 2009 15:33:33 GMT
What a waste of fuckin money, it must have cost thousands to catch these "criminals" Can anyone remember the first time Crooks came back to Stoke......and as for the tree huggers on here, well i'm soddin well gob smacked well put sir. there was 3000 spurs fans there that day and they picked out 16.. its a fcuking witchhunt . been going football since 1967 and its getting to the point where u cant have a piss without holding your hamd up in football grounds now. we ( spurs /yids ) have t put up with the gasssssssssssssssss sounds at west ham/chelsea had it 4 years ( and i aint a jew ) but nothing ever done about it we have west ham fans singing i would rather be a paki then a jew ( nothing ever done about it ) i cal it part of footall banter but our national game is being over run with pc leftie nambie pambie cnuts who will soon have us leaving the games in droves with the way its run
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 14, 2009 15:55:58 GMT
'Not only have they had to endure the indignity and humiliation of being smeared in the press, they all now also face a LIFE TIME BAN from British football.' Paul, Do you really think these 'people' have any concept of dignity or humiliation??? you must be joking!!!!! Spit I have been watching football for 35 years, and I haven't ever felt the need to join in with any offensive chanting, not even towards the referee. I find the Sol Campbell chant extremely offensive but I also find a whole heap of other chants highly offensive as well. The issue here is not whether certain individuals have a concept of dignity but rather of how big a brush you are personally prepared to wield if you believe these prosecutions to be necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 16:11:19 GMT
... Bing on the Revolution! ... I'm dreaming of a bloody revolution Just like the ones we used to do Where policemen cowered behind shields while showered with bricks thrown by people high on glue. I'm dreaming of a bloody revolution with every tree-hugger rant I read And you can piss and moan and you can plead But rioting's where all this PC crap will lead. I have it on good whore-thority that dear old Bing was singing that on his death bed. ah
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Post by mcf on Jan 14, 2009 16:25:04 GMT
PaulSpencer I guarentee now that you will have engaged in 'offensive' behaviour. Surely you have swore at least once? If you haven't, you are a disgrace.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 14, 2009 16:29:03 GMT
Merk Many people find my very presence at a football game to be offensive!
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Post by spitthedog on Jan 14, 2009 16:35:13 GMT
To me, defending a group of 'people' who chant 'And we don’t give a f*** if you’re hanging from a tree, You Judas c*** with HIV." in a public place.............. IS PC gone mad!!!!
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Post by mcf on Jan 14, 2009 16:43:26 GMT
I think the literacy merit in those words to poetically describe the wish of a puff's death is nothing short of superb.
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Post by TheWiseMaster on Jan 14, 2009 16:47:01 GMT
What we are seeing in this debate is that we all have considerably different levels of tolerance to these chants Personally I have no problem with the bombers on the runway though I find the gas chant mentioned by the Spurs fan particularly offensive (even though the Jews are treating their neighbours to some Nazi style punishments right now) Chants by one group against another are taken with a massive pinch of salt by the other group and given back in kind The difference with the Cambell chant is that it is personal and hitting someone who may be very vulnerable and tipped over the edge by such attacks One other factor that we have to remember is that whatever we chant – the first to imitate them are the young and gullible. Most will go home and think no more about it but some will conclude that a chant against (say) disabled people has been condoned by a large crowd and may repeat the same on the street How far from that behaviour to happy slapping? Public standards of behaviour have been falling for years – so no surprise that it reaches into football grounds. But should it be encouraged? There have been offensive shouts since football began but only in the past few years have the worst been taken up by a large section of the crowd I hope that the police action is successful to at least make these idiots think – however it is going to be very difficult to draw any legal lines in this morass Sorry mcf – we will miss you – well just a bit!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 14, 2009 16:53:07 GMT
To me, defending a group of 'people' who chant 'And we don’t give a f*** if you’re hanging from a tree, You Judas c*** with HIV." in a public place.............. IS PC gone mad!!!! Spit I don't know if this aimed at me or not, but for the record, I haven't anywhere in this thread defended the Spurs fans that have been targeted for this chant. I have stated several times, that personally, I find the chant HIGHLY offensive. What I have done however, is question the legitimacy of their prosecution and expressed severe reservations about the potential consequences for us all if the charges stand up in court. Even though I do find many chants at football grounds particularly sickening, I am not prepared to nail my colours to the mast on this issue, unless I am absolutely certain, that any action I do support is able to withstand proper examination. You on the other hand, may I respectfully suggest, seem far more easily prepared to join those with burning torches, than consider the ultimate consequences of such actions.
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Post by sutekh on Jan 14, 2009 16:53:13 GMT
If only sol could come to terms with his own sexuality
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Post by Do it for Watto7 on Jan 14, 2009 16:54:23 GMT
I was in the JSL Block 10 on Saturday and the police pulled me to one side and told me if I carried on using abusive language ( Fu**ed in the showers) then I would be escorted out of the stadium. I just sang " Bummed in the showers " after that.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 14, 2009 16:59:13 GMT
Personally I have no problem with the bombers on the runway So tell me Wise Master as you are so eager for the Spurs fans to be found guilty, but actually you don't have a problem with 'the bombers on the runway' chant which I many other people do indeed find thoroughly offensive ... Where is the line drawn and who decides how it is drawn?
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Post by mcf on Jan 14, 2009 17:06:00 GMT
Its usually the do-gooding wankstains on this site.
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Post by powchirper on Jan 14, 2009 17:07:46 GMT
For the money these players earn you can call me anything you want, and as for p spencer, well you must have spent the last 35 years tut tutting at every game you attended.
Absolutely nothing and i mean NOTHING offends me at the match, if it did i wouldnt chant it would i.
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Post by spitthedog on Jan 14, 2009 17:12:34 GMT
To me, defending a group of 'people' who chant 'And we don’t give a f*** if you’re hanging from a tree, You Judas c*** with HIV." in a public place.............. IS PC gone mad!!!! Spit I don't know if this aimed at me or not, but for the record, I haven't anywhere in this thread defended the Spurs fans that have been targeted for this chant. I have stated several times, that personally, I find the chant HIGHLY offensive. What I have done however, is question the legitimacy of their prosecution and expressed severe reservations about the potential consequences for us all if the charges stand up in court. Even though I do find many chants at football grounds particularly sickening, I am not prepared to nail my colours to the mast on this issue, unless I am absolutely certain, that any action I do support is able to withstand proper examination. You on the other hand, may I respectfully suggest, seem far more easily prepared to join those with burning torches, than consider the ultimate consequences of such actions. Paul the comment was not specifically aimed at you. i think you raise an interesting point which is worthy of debate what i am witnessing is a unholy alliance between those who believe personal abuse of any kind or level is acceptable in a football ground and the those (who are usually written off as liberals and PC brigade) who want to defend free speech at all costs. i would like to ask you a question 'do you think football fans have a right to suspend moral values in a football ground at any cost, just because they feel emotional'?? surely it is the function of societies to draw the lines you talk about and this prosecution is part of that process???
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2009 17:16:17 GMT
What happens if a man called TJ stabs and kills his wife called Delilah, and it is a high profile murder, we will be stuffed.
Coppers are twats and they are even worse at football, I am sure they are those dweebs who were bullied at school and are now just simply getting their own back. Arresting people for this whilst the knife weilding maniacs go free, total bollocks
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Post by Corporal Clegg on Jan 14, 2009 17:29:03 GMT
Remember this old chestnut....
Sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me
That little phrase used to do the rounds a lot as a kid and everybody seemed to understand the concept of it. It appears that as we have all gotten older we have forgotten that words or thoughts of any number of people cannot actually hurt you (even a whole stadium full)
Words will hurt you even less when you are being paid a ridiculous ammount of money to play a game of football.
I personally wouldnt say whether the songs mentioned were offensive or not, its a personal thing for individuals; what I would say though is use a bit of common sense and put it into perspective.
I mean, whats the worst thing that could have happened to sol campbell really after this? oh yeah, he could have been found hanging from a tree............(that was a joke by the way)
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Jan 14, 2009 17:29:47 GMT
WTF has the prince harry thing got to do with this?
Prince Harry = MEDIA oppurtunism to portray celebrity as being a hateful **** whether he was or was not being a hateful **** because he was ignorant enough to use a term used by hateful ****s.
Sol Chant = Actual real life people being hateful ****s together under the assumption that they were faceless parts of a crowd, some of whom are being plucked out for prosecution by the POLICE, with the setting of legal precedent a consequence.
One is a cheap headline for a few days, the other has provoked this debate and may change the law.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 14, 2009 17:31:30 GMT
Paul ... i would like to ask you a question 'do you think football fans have a right to suspend moral values in a football ground at any cost, just because they feel emotional'?? Spit that is one helluva an excellent question and goes to the very heart of this debate. Unfortunately I'm going to have to give you a pretty poor reply, that being ... that I'm not entirely sure. Without question, one of the worst days of my life as a supporter of Stoke City came a few years ago, where at Oldham away, myself and my brother found ourselves seated with our children in the centre of a large section of Stoke fans who rose to their feet chanting "Stand Up If You Hate Pakis." The chant went on for some time, of course myself and my family remained seated, but 99% of those immediately around us (including women and children) were standing and were chanting. Of course we couldn't see the game, and I turned to my brother and said I would rather leave the ground than stand up and thus be a part of what was going on. He turned to me and said, although he was highly offended by what was happening ... that we should just sit it out, or else 'they' had won. This is what we indeed did do. Should all of those supporters (including women and children) be put in front of the courts? I think not, they were swept up in the hysteria of what was happening around them, it was certainly a lot harder to remain seated than to stand. However I accept that it isn't right. I don't know what the answer is or indeed if there actually is one. However what I do know is what the answer isn't: That is ... arbitrarily going on a witch hunt of some sixteen or so Spurs fans (some of which are children) when there are tens of thousands of people chanting things just as distasteful at grounds up and down the country every Saturday.
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Post by GlynDerby on Jan 14, 2009 17:32:41 GMT
Where is the line drawn and who decides how it is drawn? This is the key question and the reason i started the thread, If/When these people are convicted then the police, with the aid of CCTV, could be knocking on anyone of our doors after a game. This, in effect, is a test case and if it results in convictions and life time bans you can imagine the field day the police with have, I for one am worried.
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Post by sutekh on Jan 14, 2009 17:41:22 GMT
And i for one look forward to the day when the police will arrest players on the pitch who commit assault and other acts of violence. Not to mention removing from the ground players who use obscene language at the official's I'm such a sensitive soul
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