British Farmers

[Gawa]

What's everyone's opinion on the inheritance tax stuff and farmers striking/protesting.

Certainly an interesting discussion with pros and cons on both sides.

[mickeythemaestro]

Nov 19, 2024 10:53:10 GMT Gawa said:

What's everyone's opinion on the inheritance tax stuff and farmers striking/protesting.

Certainly an interesting discussion with pros and cons on both sides.

A massive dropped bollock by starmer and Reeves. Will raise fuck all. Will destroy family farming and weaken our food security. And the NHS will waste the re directed money into the abyss of its failing system.

Its what happens when you implement poorly thought out ideology. And shows a metropolitan attitude towards the countryside where they seem to think its all hunter wellies and barber jackets. Farmers work in an industry where their profits are strangled by the supermarkets. Their profits decline year on year. And the salaries really aren't great. Compare them to your train drivers and yet certain fools cheer it on thinking its one in the eye for the rich and landed gentry.

Its a hit that was both unnecessary, cruel and has dreadful optics. He'll regret this childish move for sure. In my opinion Gawa 😆

[flea79]

British farmers will be hit hard

as a rule farms have passed through generations and will now maybe not be able too due to the costs

clarksons farm showed just how hard it is to turn a profit in todays world

they feed us and work every day of the year and this is how they are treated

mind you never see one without a new land rover!

[oggyoggy]

It is taxing wealthy agricultural land owners half what the rest of us will have to pay on our assets (and they get an extra £1M exemption too and 10 years to pay!!).

If money needs raising, taxing rich farmers and land owners (why do we think James Dyson owns £500m of agricultural land in this country!?) is sensible compared with taxing workers more.

[prestwichpotter]

Nov 19, 2024 10:53:10 GMT Gawa said:

What's everyone's opinion on the inheritance tax stuff and farmers striking/protesting.

Certainly an interesting discussion with pros and cons on both sides.

I hope they don't stop anyone from getting to their hospital appointments or to work on time. 

There will be hell up on here I'm sure if that happens 

[salopstick]

Nov 19, 2024 11:25:28 GMT oggyoggy said:

It is taxing wealthy agricultural land owners half what the rest of us will have to pay on our assets (and they get an extra £1M exemption too and 10 years to pay!!).

If money needs raising, taxing rich farmers and land owners (why do we think James Dyson owns £500m of agricultural land in this country!?) is sensible compared with taxing workers more.

they need to devise better ways of taxing the likes of dyson

they wont

[Rednwhitenblue]

British farmers - biggest bunch of moaners in the world! (Probably the same in any country, to be fair).

If they own their land, they're sitting on multi-million pound assets, currently exempt from inheritance tax, if I understand it correctly. The average hectare of agricultural land is worth £10,000 and the average farm size is 90 hectares. There's the best part of a million quid already, without taking into account farm buildings, the farmhouse (usually sizeable) and machinery. You're probably looking at assets, on average, of between £2-3million. Even the current proposals are soft. The first £1m is entirely exempt from IHT, just £325,000 for the rest of us mere mortals! After that they pay at a 20% rate, 40% for the rest of us!

Farmers are already exempt from the usual competitive trading environment that everyone else has to deal with - very few other industries get blanket subsidies like farmers have benefited from for decades.

Farmers use red diesel, approximately half the price of regular diesel. Of course, none of it goes in their road vehicles...

Farmers even get to dictate the bloody time - an hour change in March and another one in October.

Farmers voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, then moaned when they couldn't export their produce, red tape got worse, veterinary medicines (and everything else) got loads more expensive.

Fuck 'em, about time they paid their way, if you offered them the moon on a stick they'd ask which moon it was they were getting!

[oggyoggy]

Nov 19, 2024 11:39:45 GMT salopstick said:

Nov 19, 2024 11:25:28 GMT oggyoggy said:

It is taxing wealthy agricultural land owners half what the rest of us will have to pay on our assets (and they get an extra £1M exemption too and 10 years to pay!!).

If money needs raising, taxing rich farmers and land owners (why do we think James Dyson owns £500m of agricultural land in this country!?) is sensible compared with taxing workers more.

they need to devise better ways of taxing the likes of dyson

they wont

That’s why closing the agricultural land loophole (at least a bit) means he will pay more tax.

Imagine complaining that you only have to pay half the tax that everyone else has to pay, you get an extra £1m of exemptions to everyone else, and you get 10 years rather than 6 months to pay!

The people most impacted by this are not farmers. They are very wealthy landlords and landowners, like Dyson. No tax is perfect and some farmers will get hit who will be put in financial difficulty and that is sad, but if they take good legal advice they can plan their affairs in a more tax efficient way and make the most if the more generous exemptions and loopholes available to them compared with the rest of us.

In my opinion the royal family should have to pay tax on their agricultural land.

If people want to support local farmers, stop shopping in supermarkets and buy everything from your local farmers market. I do my best to do that. You pay more, but you get far better quality produce and service.

[wagsastokie]

Nov 19, 2024 11:25:28 GMT oggyoggy said:

It is taxing wealthy agricultural land owners half what the rest of us will have to pay on our assets (and they get an extra £1M exemption too and 10 years to pay!!).

If money needs raising, taxing rich farmers and land owners (why do we think James Dyson owns £500m of agricultural land in this country!?) is sensible compared with taxing workers more.

Just a question why do you have to go to a extreme to defend this government
On winter fuel you brought up the likes of multi millionaires

On this you bring up Dyson it’s almost as if your beginning to scrape a barrel to justify this governments actions

[oggyoggy]

Nov 19, 2024 11:59:55 GMT wagsastokie said:

Nov 19, 2024 11:25:28 GMT oggyoggy said:

It is taxing wealthy agricultural land owners half what the rest of us will have to pay on our assets (and they get an extra £1M exemption too and 10 years to pay!!).

If money needs raising, taxing rich farmers and land owners (why do we think James Dyson owns £500m of agricultural land in this country!?) is sensible compared with taxing workers more.

Just a question why do you have to go to a extreme to defend this government
On winter fuel you brought up the likes of multi millionaires

On this you bring up Dyson it’s almost as if your beginning to scrape a barrel to justify this governments actions

I will defend a government who (too slowly in my opinion) shift the burden of funding public services properly more on to the wealthier people over the previous governments we have seen recently, who put the burden more on workers or just neglected public services entirely.

If Jeremy Clarkson and James Dyson and millionaires are not asked to pay more tax, who should be? Or do you not mind the state of our public services? Do you not want to see investment in it?

I haven’t run the figures. Perhaps the extra £1m inheritance tax exemption (on top of a maximum of £1m all of us who are married and own an expensive family home (a farm house perhaps!) can pass on tax free) is too low. That means with simple tax planning, farmers can pass £2m without paying a penny of tax.

Maybe that needs to be slightly higher, give them an extra £1.5m rather than £1m on top of the £1m we all can potentially take advantage of, I don’t know. But then they have 10 years rather than 6 months to pay, and they pay half the rate of tax. It seems a good deal for most millionaire agricultural land owners to me. It is never going to be perfect for everyone.

[Gawa]

Nov 19, 2024 11:25:28 GMT oggyoggy said:

It is taxing wealthy agricultural land owners half what the rest of us will have to pay on our assets (and they get an extra £1M exemption too and 10 years to pay!!).

If money needs raising, taxing rich farmers and land owners (why do we think James Dyson owns £500m of agricultural land in this country!?) is sensible compared with taxing workers more.

It's a difficult one though because for the majority of farmers I don't think farming is particularly profitable.

So if you're a farmer working on a small piece of land around London, I imagine that land is worth significantly more than any profits derived from farming. So in scenarios like that I could see farmers having to sell up and the land likely used for property development or something.

And so what happens with the loss in farming? Chlorine chicken from America or factory built meat or food filled with all sorts of chemicals and preservatives?

It's strange that the main people kicking off in relation to this are farmers too as I don't personally think of farmers when I think of the super wealthy.

I presume this is probably largely due to the different loopholes which exist and various accounting tricks too so that the super wealthy can find ways around it which farmers maybe can't.

Maybe the inheritance tax should be based of the profits generated from the business. And if any land is sold within 20 years of being inherited then that also faces the tax.

It just feels like this unfairly targets farmers based on the value of the land rather than the profits of the business. And so a farmer in Northern Ireland won't be impacted in the same way as a farmer in South East England. Despite the northern Irish farmer maybe having the more profitable business and bigger turnover.

[skip]

Back in the 1980s, farmers didn't give a shit about miners. The British farming industry voted overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit. Brexit fucked farming. And as has been mentioned above, doesn't blocking roads in protest bring about instant arrest and time inside? Who will milk the cows?

[Rednwhitenblue]

Nov 19, 2024 12:10:01 GMT Gawa said:

Nov 19, 2024 11:25:28 GMT oggyoggy said:

It is taxing wealthy agricultural land owners half what the rest of us will have to pay on our assets (and they get an extra £1M exemption too and 10 years to pay!!).

If money needs raising, taxing rich farmers and land owners (why do we think James Dyson owns £500m of agricultural land in this country!?) is sensible compared with taxing workers more.

It's a difficult one though because for the majority of farmers I don't think farming is particularly profitable.

So if you're a farmer working on a small piece of land around London, I imagine that land is worth significantly more than any profits derived from farming. So in scenarios like that I could see farmers having to sell up and the land likely used for property development or something.

And so what happens with the loss in farming? Chlorine chicken from America or factory built meat or food filled with all sorts of chemicals and preservatives?

It's strange that the main people kicking off in relation to this are farmers too as I don't personally think of farmers when I think of the super wealthy.

I presume this is probably largely due to the different loopholes which exist and various accounting tricks too so that the super wealthy can find ways around it which farmers maybe can't.

Maybe the inheritance tax should be based of the profits generated from the business. And if any land is sold within 20 years of being inherited then that also faces the tax.

It just feels like this unfairly targets farmers based on the value of the land rather than the profits of the business. And so a farmer in Northern Ireland won't be impacted in the same way as a farmer in South East England. Despite the northern Irish farmer maybe having the more profitable business and bigger turnover.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but the proposed changes aren't about the profitability of the farm, they're about farms no longer being exempt from inheritance tax, ie after the farmer has died. There are a whole host of reasons why a farm may not be profitable which have got nothing to do with IHT. I suppose you could argue that a failing farmer at least had his IHT-free assets to fall back on when he went bust, but I'm not sure why they should continue to be such a favoured bunch in that respect, especially when, in England at least, anyone with a property with a value just a smidge over the English average of £310,000 (which is probably almost everyone south of, say, Stoke, and certainly almost everyone in the midlands and south-east) will pay IHT at 40% on anything over £325,000. Why should farmers continue to be exempt when other failed business owners forced to sell their assets wouldn't be?

So, while it's true that a NI farmer may not be impacted as much as one in the SE of England, that'll be because the value of the land they occupy is vastly different. In fact, an NI farmer may still not pay much or any IHT under the new rules, depending on the overall value of his assets, compared to the asset value of the SE farmer. In essence, therefore, those wealthier asset-rich farmers will pay more IHT than poorer ones, which is how tax contributions should work.

It'll be interesting to see how the public reacts to any blockades by farmers. I suspect it might be mixed. I doubt whether anyone knew that farmers were exempt from IHT and anyone who has subsequently become aware may well be a bit pissed off that they were.  They've also already got a reputation for being moaners while benefiting from numerous other financial breaks that no-one else gets. Perhaps if that was made more public, your average Joe wouldn't be so sympathetic, if they were to begin with?

[wannabee]

We need to build more houses - yes but not here - bang Rayner says fuck off

We need to Tax the Wealthy - yes but not wealthy farmers - bang Reeves ignores this crap

A married couple can pass on a Farm valued at £3M without paying any Tax. For Farms worth more than £3M the excess value is taxed at half the rate anyone else pays and can be paid over 10 years 😭 

If you listen to some of the more vocal objectors this will be the end of this Green and Pleasant Land which has existed since Magna Carta. This is complete nonsense, this Tax Free Bung was introduced by Thatcher in 1984 (oh err) at exactly the same time, like Skip says, she was fucking over the miners. This Inheritance Tax will affect very few, if any, genuine farmers and in fact it may help farmers if huge Estates are forced to sell off some hoarded land to pay inheritance Tax.

Don't take my word listen to this from Tax Justice 

x.com/TaxJusticeUK/status/1853393166344344011/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1853393166344344011&currentTweetUser=TaxJusticeUK

[Huddysleftfoot]

[wagsastokie]

Small farmers paying more
Pensioners getting less

How much more are amazon and the like contributing

[stan]

I’m not surprised by the animosity aimed at farmers. Farming is misunderstood and to be fair there’s no reason for people to bother about it……………

Or it is a subject to think about ???

Small family farms on the whole produce higher welfare food and tastier produce than those provided by bigger more intensive enterprises. Not one hundred per cent but generally

If the owner of the farm dies the farm will now get valued for its commercial value. Who knows who will be valuing the land. Also these farms are passed down through generations to be farmed. Everyone knows how high suicide rates are for farmers in general. It’s not like a workplace as anyone perceives one. It’s 24 hrs because animals are sentient beings and require constant care and attention, crops and cereal crops are problematic cpdue tomthe weather conditions. It’s a battle. Generally speaking farming is in the blood. Generational knowledge and experience is passed down

So a farmer dies and the land is valued. The 20 per cent tax has to be paid. Land has to be sold. In all probability to,wealthy people who want the land to,lie fallow and not be used to produce food

So where do people want their food from? Are people happy with their food coming from other countries. France and other countries value their farmers. They know that food is as important as electricity, gas, water and other industries thst are protected and subsidised by the government!!!!

Be careful what you wish for.

During the Second World War this farm produced milk, eggs, pork etc for the local community . Without such small farms the war effort would have been a much different prospect. How would people have fed themselves?

Yes people like Dyson and the Royal family should be targeted appropriately. Farming to,them isn’t their main source of income. It isn’t a lifetime’s experience or way of life. Older generation farmers have forgotten more than some know. This is important. Food is important. Quality is important

Unless you’re a Labour politician who see a target. I wouldn’t even expect them to use any money generated wisely anyway. Look at the vast amounts of money wasted by consecutive governments. Will this lot be any different? I’m not seeing any evidence of competence so far that’s for sure

[RipRoaringPotter]

I have some sympathy for farmers since farming (along with fishing) were the two sectors that were promised plenty and got fuck all from Brexit, but if this fact check is correct then it seems that it is a very small number of wealthy farm owners will be affected by this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o

Having read the headlines but not much details about this I was expecting it to be a far larger number of families affected.

[wannabee]

Nov 19, 2024 13:07:10 GMT wagsastokie said:

Small farmers paying more
Pensioners getting less

How much more are amazon and the like contributing

What £value would you consider as a Small Farm?

[Gawa]

Nov 19, 2024 12:41:00 GMT Rednwhitenblue said:

Nov 19, 2024 12:10:01 GMT Gawa said:

It's a difficult one though because for the majority of farmers I don't think farming is particularly profitable.

So if you're a farmer working on a small piece of land around London, I imagine that land is worth significantly more than any profits derived from farming. So in scenarios like that I could see farmers having to sell up and the land likely used for property development or something.

And so what happens with the loss in farming? Chlorine chicken from America or factory built meat or food filled with all sorts of chemicals and preservatives?

It's strange that the main people kicking off in relation to this are farmers too as I don't personally think of farmers when I think of the super wealthy.

I presume this is probably largely due to the different loopholes which exist and various accounting tricks too so that the super wealthy can find ways around it which farmers maybe can't.

Maybe the inheritance tax should be based of the profits generated from the business. And if any land is sold within 20 years of being inherited then that also faces the tax.

It just feels like this unfairly targets farmers based on the value of the land rather than the profits of the business. And so a farmer in Northern Ireland won't be impacted in the same way as a farmer in South East England. Despite the northern Irish farmer maybe having the more profitable business and bigger turnover.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but the proposed changes aren't about the profitability of the farm, they're about farms no longer being exempt from inheritance tax, ie after the farmer has died. There are a whole host of reasons why a farm may not be profitable which have got nothing to do with IHT. I suppose you could argue that a failing farmer at least had his IHT-free assets to fall back on when he went bust, but I'm not sure why they should continue to be such a favoured bunch in that respect, especially when, in England at least, anyone with a property with a value just a smidge over the English average of £310,000 (which is probably almost everyone south of, say, Stoke, and certainly almost everyone in the midlands and south-east) will pay IHT at 40% on anything over £325,000. Why should farmers continue to be exempt when other failed business owners forced to sell their assets wouldn't be?

So, while it's true that a NI farmer may not be impacted as much as one in the SE of England, that'll be because the value of the land they occupy is vastly different. In fact, an NI farmer may still not pay much or any IHT under the new rules, depending on the overall value of his assets, compared to the asset value of the SE farmer. In essence, therefore, those wealthier asset-rich farmers will pay more IHT than poorer ones, which is how tax contributions should work.

It'll be interesting to see how the public reacts to any blockades by farmers. I suspect it might be mixed. I doubt whether anyone knew that farmers were exempt from IHT and anyone who has subsequently become aware may well be a bit pissed off that they were.  They've also already got a reputation for being moaners while benefiting from numerous other financial breaks that no-one else gets. Perhaps if that was made more public, your average Joe wouldn't be so sympathetic, if they were to begin with?

I think you're using "failing farmer" incorrectly here. There are many people who work to live rather than live to work and don't prioritise accumulating wealth - that doesn't make them a "failing farmer".

I'd say the difference between a farmer and those people you mention is that most farmers have lived on their land for generations and their livelihood and business is based on that land. If my parents die my livelihood does not depend on me using their garden. The value of the land for most farmers doesn't mean alot because they don't intend to sell it. The value of homes inherited is significant because it is sold off more often and nobody is running a business which depends on their parents back garden.

Your second paragraph I disagree with. I think the value of the land is significantly different depending on if used for agricultural purposes or property development and so the value of the land should be based on it's value to the business rather than it's value to a potential property developer. If the land is never intended to be sold and is intended to be used for farming then inheritance tax should take that into account and provide realistic valuation based on it's use rather than it's location and other external factors the farmer has had no control over. 

I guess ultimately time will tell though won't it. If we see super wealthy people now suddenly buying up farmers lands or if we see property developers buying it up and concreting over it and selling unaffordable homes for profits. Then who wins? The very people this tax is meant to tackle, the super wealthy who can now get their hands on a lot of farming land at a very reasonable price because of a farmer with an inheritance tax bill they're unable to afford.

At the end of the day maybe I'm just misreading it all and maybe we have loads of billionaire farmers out there who are incredibly good at hiding their wealth and they're the ones all taking advantage of us. If that's the case then I really do apologise and hold my hands up. For me though I think the farming is a bit more niche and that there isn't a coorelation between value of the land and profitability of the business. And so I think that needs to be taken into account or we risk finding ourselves in a situation where small family farmers are being priced out of their business through inheritance tax and their land is being bought over by even wealtheir billionaires who are using tax havens and all sort of loopholes to get an advantage. Something not so accessible to farmers who typically don't have higher education nor the time to learn and do such things. 

I think anyone who supports the right to protest will support the farmers right whether they agree with or not. If you only support protests for your cause then we risk being hypocrites who don't actually support the right to protest. No doubt we will find a few hypocrites going both directions with this one. Seems Reform suddenly are fans of protest again for example

[ravey123]

Nov 19, 2024 11:57:37 GMT Rednwhitenblue said:

British farmers - biggest bunch of moaners in the world! (Probably the same in any country, to be fair).

If they own their land, they're sitting on multi-million pound assets, currently exempt from inheritance tax, if I understand it correctly. The average hectare of agricultural land is worth £10,000 and the average farm size is 90 hectares. There's the best part of a million quid already, without taking into account farm buildings, the farmhouse (usually sizeable) and machinery. You're probably looking at assets, on average, of between £2-3million. Even the current proposals are soft. The first £1m is entirely exempt from IHT, just £325,000 for the rest of us mere mortals! After that they pay at a 20% rate, 40% for the rest of us!

Farmers are already exempt from the usual competitive trading environment that everyone else has to deal with - very few other industries get blanket subsidies like farmers have benefited from for decades.

Farmers use red diesel, approximately half the price of regular diesel. Of course, none of it goes in their road vehicles...

Farmers even get to dictate the bloody time - an hour change in March and another one in October.

Farmers voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, then moaned when they couldn't export their produce, red tape got worse, veterinary medicines (and everything else) got loads more expensive.

Fuck 'em, about time they paid their way, if you offered them the moon on a stick they'd ask which moon it was they were getting!

I assume this is a wind up post. If not you need to spend a little time in the countryside seeing how hard and how many hours farmers work. Nobody other than someone born into farming would be a farmer.

Farms that actually produce stuff needs to be exempt. If this is to close a tax loophole for the tax dodging landed wealthy then great just tax land that is not farmed.

[salopstick]

Nov 19, 2024 11:59:02 GMT oggyoggy said:

Nov 19, 2024 11:39:45 GMT salopstick said:

they need to devise better ways of taxing the likes of dyson

they wont

That’s why closing the agricultural land loophole (at least a bit) means he will pay more tax.

Imagine complaining that you only have to pay half the tax that everyone else has to pay, you get an extra £1m of exemptions to everyone else, and you get 10 years rather than 6 months to pay!

The people most impacted by this are not farmers. They are very wealthy landlords and landowners, like Dyson. No tax is perfect and some farmers will get hit who will be put in financial difficulty and that is sad, but if they take good legal advice they can plan their affairs in a more tax efficient way and make the most if the more generous exemptions and loopholes available to them compared with the rest of us.

In my opinion the royal family should have to pay tax on their agricultural land.

If people want to support local farmers, stop shopping in supermarkets and buy everything from your local farmers market. I do my best to do that. You pay more, but you get far better quality produce and service.

apparently this will raise £200million

for context we are spending £100million on a bat tunnel for HS2

The farmers point is valid that its a symbolic tax that causes more problems for ordinary farmers rather than a necessity revenue raising tax

the same could be argued for winter fuel and VAT on posh schools rather than going after the uber wealthy individuals and corporoations

[salopstick]

Nov 19, 2024 13:38:06 GMT ravey123 said:

Nov 19, 2024 11:57:37 GMT Rednwhitenblue said:

British farmers - biggest bunch of moaners in the world! (Probably the same in any country, to be fair).

If they own their land, they're sitting on multi-million pound assets, currently exempt from inheritance tax, if I understand it correctly. The average hectare of agricultural land is worth £10,000 and the average farm size is 90 hectares. There's the best part of a million quid already, without taking into account farm buildings, the farmhouse (usually sizeable) and machinery. You're probably looking at assets, on average, of between £2-3million. Even the current proposals are soft. The first £1m is entirely exempt from IHT, just £325,000 for the rest of us mere mortals! After that they pay at a 20% rate, 40% for the rest of us!

Farmers are already exempt from the usual competitive trading environment that everyone else has to deal with - very few other industries get blanket subsidies like farmers have benefited from for decades.

Farmers use red diesel, approximately half the price of regular diesel. Of course, none of it goes in their road vehicles...

Farmers even get to dictate the bloody time - an hour change in March and another one in October.

Farmers voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, then moaned when they couldn't export their produce, red tape got worse, veterinary medicines (and everything else) got loads more expensive.

Fuck 'em, about time they paid their way, if you offered them the moon on a stick they'd ask which moon it was they were getting!

I assume this is a wind up post. If not you need to spend a little time in the countryside seeing how hard and how many hours farmers work. Nobody other than someone born into farming would be a farmer.

Farms that actually produce stuff needs to be exempt. If this is to close a tax loophole for the tax dodging landed wealthy then great just tax land that is not farmed.

superb idea - bring in a tax on unused land - problem solved

[oggyoggy]

Nov 19, 2024 13:43:38 GMT salopstick said:

Nov 19, 2024 11:59:02 GMT oggyoggy said:

That’s why closing the agricultural land loophole (at least a bit) means he will pay more tax.

Imagine complaining that you only have to pay half the tax that everyone else has to pay, you get an extra £1m of exemptions to everyone else, and you get 10 years rather than 6 months to pay!

The people most impacted by this are not farmers. They are very wealthy landlords and landowners, like Dyson. No tax is perfect and some farmers will get hit who will be put in financial difficulty and that is sad, but if they take good legal advice they can plan their affairs in a more tax efficient way and make the most if the more generous exemptions and loopholes available to them compared with the rest of us.

In my opinion the royal family should have to pay tax on their agricultural land.

If people want to support local farmers, stop shopping in supermarkets and buy everything from your local farmers market. I do my best to do that. You pay more, but you get far better quality produce and service.

apparently this will raise £200million

for context we are spending £100million on a bat tunnel for HS2

The farmers point is valid that its a symbolic tax that causes more problems for ordinary farmers rather than a necessity revenue raising tax

the same could be argued for winter fuel and VAT on posh schools rather than going after the uber wealthy individuals and corporoations

So you don’t want to tax landowners or people who send their children to private school. Who are you left with? Workers!

[salopstick]

Nov 19, 2024 13:56:06 GMT oggyoggy said:

Nov 19, 2024 13:43:38 GMT salopstick said:

apparently this will raise £200million

for context we are spending £100million on a bat tunnel for HS2

The farmers point is valid that its a symbolic tax that causes more problems for ordinary farmers rather than a necessity revenue raising tax

the same could be argued for winter fuel and VAT on posh schools rather than going after the uber wealthy individuals and corporoations

So you don’t want to tax landowners or people who send their children to private school. Who are you left with? Workers!

i didnt say that, what im saying it is a symbolic tax - poltical

i would argue (sucessfully) that the majority of farmers, old people and people who use private schools are more likely to vote tory than labour - the money raised from these measures are insignificant IF compared to money that they could raise from the uber wealthy - They have chosen not to

however by raising NI for employers it may not affect my paypacket directly but it will affect future paypackets and the cost of goods and services so we re left with the workers

[wannabee]

Nov 19, 2024 13:13:19 GMT stan said:

I’m not surprised by the animosity aimed at farmers. Farming is misunderstood and to be fair there’s no reason for people to bother about it……………

Or it is a subject to think about ???

Small family farms on the whole produce higher welfare food and tastier produce than those provided by bigger more intensive enterprises. Not one hundred per cent but generally

If the owner of the farm dies the farm will now get valued for its commercial value. Who knows who will be valuing the land. Also these farms are passed down through generations to be farmed. Everyone knows how high suicide rates are for farmers in general. It’s not like a workplace as anyone perceives one. It’s 24 hrs because animals are sentient beings and require constant care and attention, crops and cereal crops are problematic cpdue tomthe weather conditions. It’s a battle. Generally speaking farming is in the blood. Generational knowledge and experience is passed down

So a farmer dies and the land is valued. The 20 per cent tax has to be paid. Land has to be sold. In all probability to,wealthy people who want the land to,lie fallow and not be used to produce food

So where do people want their food from? Are people happy with their food coming from other countries. France and other countries value their farmers. They know that food is as important as electricity, gas, water and other industries thst are protected and subsidised by the government!!!!

Be careful what you wish for.

During the Second World War this farm produced milk, eggs, pork etc for the local community . Without such small farms the war effort would have been a much different prospect. How would people have fed themselves?

Yes people like Dyson and the Royal family should be targeted appropriately. Farming to,them isn’t their main source of income. It isn’t a lifetime’s experience or way of life. Older generation farmers have forgotten more than some know. This is important. Food is important. Quality is important

Unless you’re a Labour politician who see a target. I wouldn’t even expect them to use any money generated wisely anyway. Look at the vast amounts of money wasted by consecutive governments. Will this lot be any different? I’m not seeing any evidence of competence so far that’s for sure

I don't detect any animosity towards farmers, from my perspective it is the partial removal of a Tax Loophole introduced in 1984 which will affect very few, if any, genuine farmers and none that I would place in the category of a Small Farmer.

Your contention that Farms will be misvalued is nonsensical, all estates go through official probate and there would be ample opportunity to object to an incorrect valuation. 

You then stray into the area of working conditions and the vagaries of the weather,  i can agree with you, but this relates to working conditions and profitability and nothing to do with inheritance tax.

You say France values its Farmers, which may be true, but a French son/daughter inheriting a Farm will receive €100K Tax Free Allowance and then pay "droits de succession" Inheritance Tax of between 5% and 45% depending on the value of the Farm,  this is a lot less generous that the UK proposed Tax as in France practically everyone Inheriting a Farm will pay Tax .... it's called égalité.

The Inheritance Tax is being introduced in 2026 precisely to Tax people like Dyson who owns Farmland valued at £500M and before 2026 won't pay a penny in Inheritance Tax if he pops off, unfortunately there is an Act of Parliament preventing William paying any Inheritance Tax should the unfortunate demise of Charles occur. 

The objections to Farm Inheritance Tax are its Introduction but I have yet to see a sensible calculation where it is argued the Tax is unfair. Perhaps you could provide one.

[wannabee]

Nov 19, 2024 13:02:49 GMT Huddysleftfoot said:

What an ignorant knobs who has no facts to support his claims on behalf of those he is allegedly protesting for.

The only actual objection he raised was that it was time consuming for Farmers to get their succession sorted so the vast majority won't pay any tax

[oggyoggy]

Nov 19, 2024 14:00:24 GMT salopstick said:

Nov 19, 2024 13:56:06 GMT oggyoggy said:

So you don’t want to tax landowners or people who send their children to private school. Who are you left with? Workers!

i didnt say that, what im saying it is a symbolic tax - poltical

i would argue (sucessfully) that the majority of farmers, old people and people who use private schools are more likely to vote tory than labour - the money raised from these measures are insignificant IF compared to money that they could raise from the uber wealthy - They have chosen not to

however by raising NI for employers it may not affect my paypacket directly but it will affect future paypackets and the cost of goods and services so we re left with the workers

I can’t disagree with most of that.

Farmers/landowners had an unbelievably good deal before. Now it is still great compared with most but worse than before.

I absolutely agree a tax on unused land rather than farmland could be better, but perhaps tricky to monitor.

Whether the iht changes raise any money, we shall see.

[wannabee]

Ahem

[iancransonsknees]

Nov 19, 2024 14:01:50 GMT wannabee said:

Nov 19, 2024 13:13:19 GMT stan said:

I’m not surprised by the animosity aimed at farmers. Farming is misunderstood and to be fair there’s no reason for people to bother about it……………

Or it is a subject to think about ???

Small family farms on the whole produce higher welfare food and tastier produce than those provided by bigger more intensive enterprises. Not one hundred per cent but generally

If the owner of the farm dies the farm will now get valued for its commercial value. Who knows who will be valuing the land. Also these farms are passed down through generations to be farmed. Everyone knows how high suicide rates are for farmers in general. It’s not like a workplace as anyone perceives one. It’s 24 hrs because animals are sentient beings and require constant care and attention, crops and cereal crops are problematic cpdue tomthe weather conditions. It’s a battle. Generally speaking farming is in the blood. Generational knowledge and experience is passed down

So a farmer dies and the land is valued. The 20 per cent tax has to be paid. Land has to be sold. In all probability to,wealthy people who want the land to,lie fallow and not be used to produce food

So where do people want their food from? Are people happy with their food coming from other countries. France and other countries value their farmers. They know that food is as important as electricity, gas, water and other industries thst are protected and subsidised by the government!!!!

Be careful what you wish for.

During the Second World War this farm produced milk, eggs, pork etc for the local community . Without such small farms the war effort would have been a much different prospect. How would people have fed themselves?

Yes people like Dyson and the Royal family should be targeted appropriately. Farming to,them isn’t their main source of income. It isn’t a lifetime’s experience or way of life. Older generation farmers have forgotten more than some know. This is important. Food is important. Quality is important

Unless you’re a Labour politician who see a target. I wouldn’t even expect them to use any money generated wisely anyway. Look at the vast amounts of money wasted by consecutive governments. Will this lot be any different? I’m not seeing any evidence of competence so far that’s for sure

I don't detect any animosity towards farmers, from my perspective it is the partial removal of a Tax Loophole introduced in 1984 which will affect very few, if any, genuine farmers and none that I would place in the category of a Small Farmer.

Your contention that Farms will be misvalued is nonsensical, all estates go through official probate and there would be ample opportunity to object to an incorrect valuation. 

You then stray into the area of working conditions and the vagaries of the weather,  i can agree with you, but this relates to working conditions and profitability and nothing to do with inheritance tax.

You say France values its Farmers, which may be true, but a French son/daughter inheriting a Farm will receive €100K Tax Free Allowance and then pay "droits de succession" Inheritance Tax of between 5% and 45% depending on the value of the Farm,  this is a lot less generous that the UK proposed Tax as in France practically everyone Inheriting a Farm will pay Tax .... it's called égalité.

The Inheritance Tax is being introduced in 2026 precisely to Tax people like Dyson who owns Farmland valued at £500M and before 2026 won't pay a penny in Inheritance Tax if he pops off, unfortunately there is an Act of Parliament preventing William paying any Inheritance Tax should the unfortunate demise of Charles occur. 

The objections to Farm Inheritance Tax are its Introduction but I have yet to see a sensible calculation where it is argued the Tax is unfair. Perhaps you could provide one.

What's agricultural land value like in France by comparison. In my experience and understanding CAP payments were far more likely to be made to the average Joe just because of the sheer amount of land outside cities there. Families would own a few acres etc and claim the payments for those fields, especially if they came with eligibility.

In fact I'd have thought eligibility would markedly increase the lands value as an asset?