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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 19, 2024 14:47:50 GMT
i didnt say that, what im saying it is a symbolic tax - poltical i would argue (sucessfully) that the majority of farmers, old people and people who use private schools are more likely to vote tory than labour - the money raised from these measures are insignificant IF compared to money that they could raise from the uber wealthy - They have chosen not to however by raising NI for employers it may not affect my paypacket directly but it will affect future paypackets and the cost of goods and services so we re left with the workers I can’t disagree with most of that. Farmers/landowners had an unbelievably good deal before. Now it is still great compared with most but worse than before. I absolutely agree a tax on unused land rather than farmland could be better, but perhaps tricky to monitor. Whether the iht changes raise any money, we shall see. It wouldn't be difficult to monitor, DEFRA know exactly what fields are used for. In my time we used remote sensing (satellite) and could determine what crop has been grown even after it'd been harvested. For example a dodgy farmer might claim for a field of strawberries when in fact they've grown wheat, the CAP payment being greater for the former. They'd get their wrist slapped and have to repay the difference. Or where a farmer or field agent (usually) completes the form identifying a 7 hectare field when it's actually a 7 acre field, we would measure that on a GIS and send out a field officer to manually measure if need be. Nowadays I believe a lot of the donkey work is done by drone, and given the vast improvement in satellite and GPS technology it's probably incredibly accurate. It's the likes of the big landowners that need targeting, who do very little with their land. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Nov 19, 2024 14:49:09 GMT
There's a medical term coined from the USA which is "Deaths of Despair" which are solely attributed to economic and social deprivation. Alcohol and drug deaths, suicides, malnourishment etc. It is on the rise year on year in the UK, up to around 50,000 a year or around 140 a day. We often seem happy enough for governments to punch down, only getting excitable when they legislate to punch up.
I sympathise with those farmers that are asset rich but cash poor, I have no sympathy with the Beckham's and Clarkson's of this world who play at farming for tax benefits. As for the former - those that claim they're only breaking even or making £30/£40k a year with no way of paying off the tax bill immediately or over 10 years - I could be harsh and use the capitalist mantra of adapt or die. If dairy and cattle farming doesn't pay the bills, then maybe it's time to diversify and go into other methods of farming, wine or flower production if you're in a part of the UK conducive to it, alternative crops, production of your own cheese/milk/butter to sell locally, county farm initiatives, leisure and tourism or whatever it may be?
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Post by questionable on Nov 19, 2024 15:06:18 GMT
Am I right in saying that there used to be a tax on how many windows your house had??
Recall there was a country taxing folk on their swimming pools
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Post by Northy on Nov 19, 2024 15:10:31 GMT
Am I right in saying that there used to be a tax on how many windows your house had?? Recall there was a country taxing folk on their swimming pools yes on the windows, you still see older houses with bricked up windows. I know Greece taxed swimming pools, but most avoided it until drones were sent up to spy. |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 19, 2024 15:21:16 GMT
Am I right in saying that there used to be a tax on how many windows your house had?? Recall there was a country taxing folk on their swimming pools yes on the windows, you still see older houses with bricked up windows. I know Greece taxed swimming pools, but most avoided it until drones were sent up to spy. and newer houses that want to appear old they look shit |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 19, 2024 15:25:49 GMT
I don't detect any animosity towards farmers, from my perspective it is the partial removal of a Tax Loophole introduced in 1984 which will affect very few, if any, genuine farmers and none that I would place in the category of a Small Farmer. Your contention that Farms will be misvalued is nonsensical, all estates go through official probate and there would be ample opportunity to object to an incorrect valuation. You then stray into the area of working conditions and the vagaries of the weather, i can agree with you, but this relates to working conditions and profitability and nothing to do with inheritance tax. You say France values its Farmers, which may be true, but a French son/daughter inheriting a Farm will receive €100K Tax Free Allowance and then pay "droits de succession" Inheritance Tax of between 5% and 45% depending on the value of the Farm, this is a lot less generous that the UK proposed Tax as in France practically everyone Inheriting a Farm will pay Tax .... it's called égalité. The Inheritance Tax is being introduced in 2026 precisely to Tax people like Dyson who owns Farmland valued at £500M and before 2026 won't pay a penny in Inheritance Tax if he pops off, unfortunately there is an Act of Parliament preventing William paying any Inheritance Tax should the unfortunate demise of Charles occur. The objections to Farm Inheritance Tax are its Introduction but I have yet to see a sensible calculation where it is argued the Tax is unfair. Perhaps you could provide one. What's agricultural land value like in France by comparison. In my experience and understanding CAP payments were far more likely to be made to the average Joe just because of the sheer amount of land outside cities there. Families would own a few acres etc and claim the payments for those fields, especially if they came with eligibility. In fact I'd have thought eligibility would markedly increase the lands value as an asset? As best as I can determine the average value of a hectare of land in France is about €6,000 so maybe about 20%** that of UK. Which is a fair point. But wiith French Tax Free Allowance of €100K and the majority of UK Family Farms a Tax Free Allowance of up to £3M My back of a fag box calculation means in France if you inherit less than 20 Hecacres you pay some tax. In UK you can inherit 120 Hectares or 300 Acres before paying any Tax* The difference seems to be whether The Many or the Few pay Tax. www.statista.com/statistics/1093866/evolution-average-price-agricultural-land-meadow-france/*I have excluded the value of a Farmhouse in my calculation which obviously would reduce the amount of acreage ** I have used £10,000/25,000 per acre/hectacre as an average price in UK |
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Nov 19, 2024 15:29:19 GMT
There's a medical term coined from the USA which is "Deaths of Despair" which are solely attributed to economic, social, and psychological factors. Alcohol and drug deaths, suicides, malnourishment etc. It is on the rise year on year in the UK, up to around 50,000 a year or around 140 a day. We often seem happy enough for governments to punch down, only getting excitable when they legislate to punch up. I sympathise with those farmers that are asset rich but cash poor, I have no sympathy with the Beckham's and Clarkson's of this world who play at farming for tax benefits. As for the former - those that claim they're only breaking even or making £30/£40k a year with no way of paying off the tax bill immediately or over 10 years - I could be harsh and use the capitalist mantra of adapt or die. If dairy and cattle farming doesn't pay the bills, then maybe it's time to diversify and go into other methods of farming, wine or flower production if you're in a part of the UK conducive to it, alternative crops, production of your own cheese/milk/butter to sell locally, county farm initiatives, leisure and tourism or whatever it may be? If a farmer has land worth £2m and equipment worth £500k and only making £30k then his ROCE is around 1%. Most businesses wouldn't bother for that. Meanwhile last year Tesco made £2.3bn profit - up £833m from the previous year. The problem with farming isn't about IHT that so many rich people buy land to avoid, but that the retailers don't share the profits from food equitably with the producers. If farmers wanted to turn up anywhere with their muckspreaders Tesco HQ in Cheshunt might be the place to start. |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 19, 2024 15:53:32 GMT
There's a medical term coined from the USA which is "Deaths of Despair" which are solely attributed to economic, social, and psychological factors. Alcohol and drug deaths, suicides, malnourishment etc. It is on the rise year on year in the UK, up to around 50,000 a year or around 140 a day. We often seem happy enough for governments to punch down, only getting excitable when they legislate to punch up. I sympathise with those farmers that are asset rich but cash poor, I have no sympathy with the Beckham's and Clarkson's of this world who play at farming for tax benefits. As for the former - those that claim they're only breaking even or making £30/£40k a year with no way of paying off the tax bill immediately or over 10 years - I could be harsh and use the capitalist mantra of adapt or die. If dairy and cattle farming doesn't pay the bills, then maybe it's time to diversify and go into other methods of farming, wine or flower production if you're in a part of the UK conducive to it, alternative crops, production of your own cheese/milk/butter to sell locally, county farm initiatives, leisure and tourism or whatever it may be? If a farmer has land worth £2m and equipment worth £500k and only making £30k then his ROCE is around 1%. Most businesses wouldn't bother for that. Meanwhile last year Tesco made £2.3bn profit - up £833m from the previous year. The problem with farming isn't about IHT that so many rich people buy land to avoid, but that the retailers don't share the profits from food equitably with the producers. If farmers wanted to turn up anywhere with their muckspreaders Tesco HQ in Cheshunt might be the place to start. At the risk of incurring the wrath of Mr Coke and receiving a 10,000 word Epistle there is no doubt that UK Farm Income has decreased since Brexit. That is a whole different issue to Inheritance Tax www.statista.com/topics/8343/uk-farmers-and-brexit/#topicOverviewwww.fwi.co.uk/news/eu-referendum/analysis-7-years-after-brexit-farmers-count-the-cost |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Nov 19, 2024 16:11:13 GMT
There's a medical term coined from the USA which is "Deaths of Despair" which are solely attributed to economic, social, and psychological factors. Alcohol and drug deaths, suicides, malnourishment etc. It is on the rise year on year in the UK, up to around 50,000 a year or around 140 a day. We often seem happy enough for governments to punch down, only getting excitable when they legislate to punch up. I sympathise with those farmers that are asset rich but cash poor, I have no sympathy with the Beckham's and Clarkson's of this world who play at farming for tax benefits. As for the former - those that claim they're only breaking even or making £30/£40k a year with no way of paying off the tax bill immediately or over 10 years - I could be harsh and use the capitalist mantra of adapt or die. If dairy and cattle farming doesn't pay the bills, then maybe it's time to diversify and go into other methods of farming, wine or flower production if you're in a part of the UK conducive to it, alternative crops, production of your own cheese/milk/butter to sell locally, county farm initiatives, leisure and tourism or whatever it may be? If a farmer has land worth £2m and equipment worth £500k and only making £30k then his ROCE is around 1%. Most businesses wouldn't bother for that. Meanwhile last year Tesco made £2.3bn profit - up £833m from the previous year. The problem with farming isn't about IHT that so many rich people buy land to avoid, but that the retailers don't share the profits from food equitably with the producers. If farmers wanted to turn up anywhere with their muckspreaders Tesco HQ in Cheshunt might be the place to start.As someone literally sat in a Tesco site as I type I whole heartedly agree.........(get some work done you lazy bastard, yeah yeah  ) |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 19, 2024 16:16:33 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 19, 2024 17:18:02 GMT
I’m not surprised by the animosity aimed at farmers. Farming is misunderstood and to be fair there’s no reason for people to bother about it…………… Or it is a subject to think about ??? Small family farms on the whole produce higher welfare food and tastier produce than those provided by bigger more intensive enterprises. Not one hundred per cent but generally If the owner of the farm dies the farm will now get valued for its commercial value. Who knows who will be valuing the land. Also these farms are passed down through generations to be farmed. Everyone knows how high suicide rates are for farmers in general. It’s not like a workplace as anyone perceives one. It’s 24 hrs because animals are sentient beings and require constant care and attention, crops and cereal crops are problematic cpdue tomthe weather conditions. It’s a battle. Generally speaking farming is in the blood. Generational knowledge and experience is passed down So a farmer dies and the land is valued. The 20 per cent tax has to be paid. Land has to be sold. In all probability to,wealthy people who want the land to,lie fallow and not be used to produce food So where do people want their food from? Are people happy with their food coming from other countries. France and other countries value their farmers. They know that food is as important as electricity, gas, water and other industries thst are protected and subsidised by the government!!!! Be careful what you wish for. During the Second World War this farm produced milk, eggs, pork etc for the local community . Without such small farms the war effort would have been a much different prospect. How would people have fed themselves? Yes people like Dyson and the Royal family should be targeted appropriately. Farming to,them isn’t their main source of income. It isn’t a lifetime’s experience or way of life. Older generation farmers have forgotten more than some know. This is important. Food is important. Quality is important Unless you’re a Labour politician who see a target. I wouldn’t even expect them to use any money generated wisely anyway. Look at the vast amounts of money wasted by consecutive governments. Will this lot be any different? I’m not seeing any evidence of competence so far that’s for sure Yep, it's a valuable contribution to society, I agree, but so are nursing, road building, teaching, social care, postal workers, refuse collectors etc etc etc, none of whom get to be exempt from IHT, nor benefit from half price diesel, nor subsidies. Again, smaller, less valuable farms will not meet the £1m threshold (three times what us mortals have to cope with!) and those who do will pay IHT at 20% instead of 40% like the rest of us. This seems a targeted measure just like the winter fuel payments. Those at the bottom of the pile will continue to be protected, those who can afford to pay more will do so. Seems reasonable, if you're trying to fix a massive public finances hole bequeathed by the last government and trying to get things like NHS waiting lists down. How quickly people forget that they want first rate public services when asked to pay for them. |
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 19, 2024 17:30:39 GMT
Seems like some won’t be happy until all food, manufacturing and power is delivered from elsewhere into the UK. Absolute madness.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Nov 19, 2024 17:36:20 GMT
Seems like some won’t be happy until all food, manufacturing and power is delivered from elsewhere into the UK. Absolute madness. God bless free market capitalism in all it's glory..... |
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Post by stokeson on Nov 19, 2024 17:44:01 GMT
Mate get a grip .I know you hate Labour but weve just had 14 years of the most sleaziest bunch known to man who were incompetent at the same time...... |
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tmp
Spectator
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Post by tmp on Nov 19, 2024 17:51:03 GMT
I went down to the protest in London today. I’m against the new Inheritance Tax law mainly because I want the small/medium family farms to survive. I like food and I prefer it if it’s fresh. I also want the overall tax burden to be more proportionate to people’s wealth. Farmers are generally asset rich and cash poor although some do keep quite a lot under the bed!
I can’t see (unless the tax planners can find ways round it) how a lot of these farms can continue and fear they’ll be gobbled up by the big landowners. If they’re using the land to farm on then we need to encourage that continued usage for all our sakes.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 19, 2024 17:52:05 GMT
Seems like some won’t be happy until all food, manufacturing and power is delivered from elsewhere into the UK. Absolute madness. Said nobody, ever. |
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Post by stokeson on Nov 19, 2024 17:55:06 GMT
I went down to the protest in London today. I’m against the new Inheritance Tax law mainly because I want the small/medium family farms to survive. I like food and I prefer it if it’s fresh. I also want the overall tax burden to be more proportionate to people’s wealth. Farmers are generally asset rich and cash poor although some do keep quite a lot under the bed! I can’t see (unless the tax planners can find ways round it) how a lot of these farms can continue and fear they’ll be gobbled up by the big landowners. If they’re using the land to farm on then we need to encourage that continued usage for all our sakes. Most people are asset poor and cash poor compared to the average farmer yet still have to pay tax. |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 19, 2024 17:57:36 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 19, 2024 17:58:07 GMT
He's another fake man-of-the-people just like Farage. People are so easily duped!
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Post by ChesterStokie on Nov 19, 2024 18:11:02 GMT
Seems like some won’t be happy until all food, manufacturing and power is delivered from elsewhere into the UK. Absolute madness. That’s a completely separate issue from these changes to IHT. Any farmer who genuinely wants future generations of his family to continue to farm and produce food will be unaffected by these changes. The first £3m is outside the scope of IHT anyway and those with estates in excess of £3m can pass on the family farm to their sons or daughters when they are ready to take it over and as long as they live a further 7 years the whole thing is completely exempt from IHT. And that’s before any fancy avoidance schemes that the richest farmers are no doubt using. All this is just noise by farmers to warn the government against encroaching into any of the generous subsidies and tax breaks they currently receive. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 19, 2024 18:16:13 GMT
Seems like some won’t be happy until all food, manufacturing and power is delivered from elsewhere into the UK. Absolute madness. That’s a completely separate issue from these changes to IHT. Any farmer who genuinely wants future generations of his family to continue to farm and produce food will be unaffected by these changes. The first £3m is outside the scope of IHT anyway and those with estates in excess of £3m can pass on the family farm to their sons or daughters when they are ready to take it over and as long as they live a further 7 years the whole thing is completely exempt from IHT. And that’s before any fancy avoidance schemes that the richest farmers are no doubt using. All this is just noise by farmers to warn the government encroaching into any of the generous subsidies and tax breaks they currently receive. Yep. You wait till they start claiming it'll make food prices go up. What like Brexit, you mean? That thing you farmers voted for? |
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Post by lordb on Nov 19, 2024 18:40:14 GMT
Down to their last Range Rover?
Tough times
We should show farmrrs the same solidarity they showed with the striking miners,dockers,print workers, steel workers ("Fight for Shelton Bar"? , fuck that I'm voting Thatcher)
Sorry but these things come around
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Nov 19, 2024 18:42:02 GMT
Lefties hate hard working people earning money shock
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 19, 2024 18:49:21 GMT
What's agricultural land value like in France by comparison. In my experience and understanding CAP payments were far more likely to be made to the average Joe just because of the sheer amount of land outside cities there. Families would own a few acres etc and claim the payments for those fields, especially if they came with eligibility. In fact I'd have thought eligibility would markedly increase the lands value as an asset? As best as I can determine the average value of a hectare of land in France is about €6,000 so maybe about 20%** that of UK. Which is a fair point. But wiith French Tax Free Allowance of €100K and the majority of UK Family Farms a Tax Free Allowance of up to £3M My back of a fag box calculation means in France if you inherit less than 20 Hecacres you pay some tax. In UK you can inherit 120 Hectares or 300 Acres before paying any Tax* The difference seems to be whether The Many or the Few pay Tax. www.statista.com/statistics/1093866/evolution-average-price-agricultural-land-meadow-france/*I have excluded the value of a Farmhouse in my calculation which obviously would reduce the amount of acreage ** I have used £10,000/25,000 per acre/hectacre as an average price in UK It’s not just land it includes buildings machines livestock farmhouses |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 19, 2024 18:52:46 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Nov 19, 2024 18:57:00 GMT
As best as I can determine the average value of a hectare of land in France is about €6,000 so maybe about 20%** that of UK. Which is a fair point. But wiith French Tax Free Allowance of €100K and the majority of UK Family Farms a Tax Free Allowance of up to £3M My back of a fag box calculation means in France if you inherit less than 20 Hecacres you pay some tax. In UK you can inherit 120 Hectares or 300 Acres before paying any Tax* The difference seems to be whether The Many or the Few pay Tax. www.statista.com/statistics/1093866/evolution-average-price-agricultural-land-meadow-france/*I have excluded the value of a Farmhouse in my calculation which obviously would reduce the amount of acreage ** I have used £10,000/25,000 per acre/hectacre as an average price in UK It’s not just land it includes buildings machines livestock farmhouses Did you not read my * |
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Nov 19, 2024 19:04:49 GMT
He's another fake man-of-the-people just like Farage. People are so easily duped! Where is he getting the 96% stat from? utter bollocks. |
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Post by lordb on Nov 19, 2024 19:10:34 GMT
Lefties hate hard working people earning money shock The exact opposite I don't have any time for farmers crying foul though |
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Post by chuckrocky on Nov 19, 2024 19:11:47 GMT
He's another fake man-of-the-people just like Farage. People are so easily duped! So it was the farmers fault all along that people struggle to get GP appointments. Who knew. |
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Post by Veritas on Nov 19, 2024 19:13:40 GMT
Whatever your view on inheritance tax as a concept why would farmers, or anyone else get a free pass? The government should go further and remove the option of setting up a trust to avoid tax on inherited wealth.
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