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Post by rowleyscfc on Sept 24, 2024 12:09:31 GMT
I would say that even "playing out from the back" has changed. It's not like it's quickly moved from centre back to full back and into midfield, it can be 4 or 5 passes between goalkeeper and centre backs, sometimes within their own 6 yard box. I have no idea if that's what it's going to be like under him, but Schumacher did try it sometimes as well. When done well, even the best sometimes get put under pressure and take massive risks. As Stoke fans being in the position we are in, I'm just really unsure that doing it as a high-risk high-reward strategy will work for us. I can see us getting fucked with the risks and with little reward, especially with the likes of Tchamedeu at full back. To be honest, I get annoyed when I hear fellow Stoke fans say our fan base is stuck in the stone age. How, exactly? Because we don't like Wilmot and Tchamedeu passing it to each other? We like fast, direct football. The games moved on from the early 2000's though, not a single team hoofs it to a big man anymore and if they do they're playing in the lower leagues of the game. No one likes Wilmot and Tchamadue in any football capacity atm, You don't hate them because they're passing it out the back, you hate it because they can't do it. I feel like when i said people are stuck in the stone age it's people who maybe aren't aware of why teams play out from the back, like it's not just because it looks nice. The style aint the issue the players trying to adopt it are |
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Post by march4 on Sept 24, 2024 12:22:24 GMT
I’m really struggling to understand how we ended up with this guy. He managed Peralada 59 times. No success but a relegation on his record Not sure why we were that desperate for a failed head coach from the Spanish 3rd Division. When Pep was made manager of Barcelona he had managed Barcelona B in the same division as Peralada 53 times. Like Pelach he had also one promotion with them. I think Barcelona is a far bigger club than Stoke. I don’t think Pep would have a clue what to do with Stoke or with 99% of clubs in the world. However he is expert at managing big egos at the biggest clubs. |
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Post by lordb on Sept 24, 2024 12:22:55 GMT
To be honest, I get annoyed when I hear fellow Stoke fans say our fan base is stuck in the stone age. How, exactly? Because we don't like Wilmot and Tchamedeu passing it to each other? We like fast, direct football. The games moved on from the early 2000's though, not a single team hoofs it to a big man anymore and if they do they're playing in the lower leagues of the game. No one likes Wilmot and Tchamadue in any football capacity atm, You don't hate them because they're passing it out the back, you hate it because they can't do it. I feel like when i said people are stuck in the stone age it's people who maybe aren't aware of why teams play out from the back, like it's not just because it looks nice. The style aint the issue the players trying to adopt it are Sheffield Weds hoof it for sure, works often enough too but yeah vast majority more or less play the same way |
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Post by gingerninja on Sept 24, 2024 12:22:57 GMT
How are Pelach's methods so different to what we saw under Schuey?. As far as I can see, both like to play, high tempo, fast paced front foot football, pressing high?. Gibson seems to allude that it is something we've not seen before?.
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Post by Pugsley on Sept 24, 2024 12:23:59 GMT
When Pep was made manager of Barcelona he had managed Barcelona B in the same division as Peralada 53 times. Like Pelach he had also one promotion with them. I think Barcelona is a far bigger club than Stoke. I don’t think Pep would have a clue what to do with Stoke or with 99% of clubs in the world. However he is expert at managing big egos at the biggest clubs. Lol, he'd get us promoted blindfolded. |
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Post by monsoonmoon on Sept 24, 2024 12:29:20 GMT
Sounds like he’s expecting to implement everything at once rather than setting the basics and adding incrementally. That’s going to ask a lot, and I worry how little patience there is around the stands already. At the risk of going all Malcolm Tucker, I’d be inclined to get the players to think the thinkable before trying the unthinkables… It's a high risk strategy, but I'm not against the nuclear option approach, we are in need of some drastic changes - and as we've seen with Schumacher (and those before him), the board don't have much patience.
Narcis doesn't have much to lose, he may as well go all in, worst case he'll get a nice pay off and learn what not to do in his next job. If it does work out then his reputation will be greatly enhanced.
Personally I'd have favoured incremental changes, but it's useless having a guy in change for 1-2 years implementing his own incremental changes only to be replaced by the next guy, rinse and repeat. That strategy requires us to invest serious time into whoever is in charge and to back them for 3-5 years, sadly it doesn't look like this is going to happen based on the past god knows how many managers, so we may as well try something different, buckle up and enjoy the ride!
Yeah, I can’t disagree with any of that. I guess my worry is that very few people asked for this change at this moment. He’s entering a pretty hostile environment which could gather pretty negative momentum with a few bad results and sloppy performances. None of that is necessarily Narcis’ doing, but fans’ patience is pretty thin and they’ve been promised a lot. It could get very febrile very easily. I suppose my supplementary concern is broadly about Narcis mitigating any potential risk. Of course, I hope this is all conjecture and we go on a dominant run of wins, but we’ve all read this type of script one too many times at Stoke to know we don’t always get nice things! |
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Post by march4 on Sept 24, 2024 12:55:19 GMT
I don’t think Pep would have a clue what to do with Stoke or with 99% of clubs in the world. However he is expert at managing big egos at the biggest clubs. Lol, he'd get us promoted blindfolded. Not a chance. He’d be gone well before the end of the season. It’s horses for courses. |
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Post by femark on Sept 24, 2024 12:57:40 GMT
I don't think we can afford to make incremental changes over a long period of time. Pelach needs to set his stall out early and say "this is how we are playing". Give the players all of the information and see who is best suited to executing his instructions. Schumacher, Neil, O'Neil and Jones all backtracked when things didn't work and we ended up with a lack of style and identity from each of them. In terms of identity I agree, but Mad Nath showed us how it ends when one picks a style of play that the current players cannot quickly adapt to. Most of the managers you mention were constrained by the budget available, especially MON, AN did have a lot of signings but wasn't given time to integrate them (the football was dire I know, but it takes time for players to gel). Schumacher had a bad spell for a couple of months but otherwise, things were looking up, albeit taking longer than some were willing to wait.
If FFP wasn't an issue, transfer windows didn't exist, and a huge amount of money was available, then this might not matter - we could change a lot in a short space of time and soon have a team playing flowing football sitting on top of the league, unless the rules change though that's not going to happen, or we get relegated like brum and spend what we like with a new man at the helm no doubt .
I feel the sensible longer term plan is to make incremental changes though, to back a manager, stick it out for the long haul, riding whatever highs and lows we face along the way. By regularly changing the manager and everything that goes with him, backroom staff, players (who are not wanted by his replacement), we're spending a huge amount of money and seeing no improvement. It's crazy that our owners are hugely successful in the betting industry yet they run their football club like a punter.
It didn't take long for Jones to scrap the diamond formation, similarly Schumacher soon gave up on the inverted full back idea. They reverted to the standard, uninspiring tactics that we've seen time and time again. Wilmot gave the ball away against Hull by trying to play between the lines, which is exactly what Pelach wants him to do. That doesn't mean we should give up now and revert to passing sideways before going long. |
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Sept 24, 2024 12:57:49 GMT
How are Pelach's methods so different to what we saw under Schuey?. As far as I can see, both like to play, high tempo, fast paced front foot football, pressing high?. Gibson seems to allude that it is something we've not seen before?. He had 48 hours with the players and been in charge for 1 game |
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Post by Pugsley on Sept 24, 2024 12:58:14 GMT
Lol, he'd get us promoted blindfolded. Not a chance. He’d be gone well before the end of the season. It’s horses for courses. Absolutely would. Class is class whatever level. |
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Post by lordb on Sept 24, 2024 13:06:39 GMT
Not a chance. He’d be gone well before the end of the season. It’s horses for courses. Absolutely would. Class is class whatever level. doubt we will ever know but would be fascinating to see a Klopp or a Pep manage a side on a limited budget > to be fair Klopp did at Mainz I do agree with March's point is that Peps number 1 quality is his ability to mana manage superstar players , as such a different skill ste required for managing non super stars however Pep is clearly an incredibly intense coach so that would be the same The other example would be Ancelotti who is probably the best manager/head coach alive when it comes to managing superstars (& big club boardrooms), don't think he's as adept tactically (not shit by any mans) as we saw at Everton There are also examples the other way of manager/head coach who are superb at getting the best out of limited players but struggle when managing superstars |
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Post by mamathestriker on Sept 24, 2024 13:34:30 GMT
To be honest, I get annoyed when I hear fellow Stoke fans say our fan base is stuck in the stone age. How, exactly? Because we don't like Wilmot and Tchamedeu passing it to each other? We like fast, direct football. The games moved on from the early 2000's though, not a single team hoofs it to a big man anymore and if they do they're playing in the lower leagues of the game. No one likes Wilmot and Tchamadue in any football capacity atm, You don't hate them because they're passing it out the back, you hate it because they can't do it. I feel like when i said people are stuck in the stone age it's people who maybe aren't aware of why teams play out from the back, like it's not just because it looks nice. The style aint the issue the players trying to adopt it are Part of me thinks football is worse for it though. Far too many games I start watching these days, only to lose interest quickly and go and do something else. It's mainly due to the football on offer being so boring. I still think there's a place for blood and thunder, get the ball forward quickly and overload on attacks. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 24, 2024 13:34:35 GMT
When Pep was made manager of Barcelona he had managed Barcelona B in the same division as Peralada 53 times. Like Pelach he had also one promotion with them. I think Barcelona is a far bigger club than Stoke. Lol. He also had a collection of some of the finest players to have ever played the game at his disposal. Not Gibson, Wilmot and Ennis 😆 It was also at a far higher standard than Stoke have ever played. I don't understand the logic behind saying that Sidibe and Dixon are old enough at 17 because they are good enough but that Pelach shouldn't be manager because he hasn't managed at the top level. Having the finest players in the world at your disposal doesn't mean you will be a good coach. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Sept 24, 2024 13:42:25 GMT
Lol. He also had a collection of some of the finest players to have ever played the game at his disposal. Not Gibson, Wilmot and Ennis 😆 It was also at a far higher standard than Stoke have ever played. I don't understand the logic behind saying that Sidibe and Dixon are old enough at 17 because they are good enough but that Pelach shouldn't be manager because he hasn't managed at the top level. Having the finest players in the world at your disposal doesn't mean you will be a good coach. I hope he turns out to be an absolute genius I really do. Guess I'm just saying Pep had it a fair bit easier. He was a club legend at barca, knew the players like the back of his hand as well as the club and had players already there who were amongst the worlds best. I looked the team up for his debut game and the quality is unreal. Xavi, Valdes, Iniesta, Ronaldinho, Eto, Alves, Puyol. Reckon I'd have em top half with that lot 😉 |
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Post by stokiejoe on Sept 24, 2024 13:44:56 GMT
The vast majority of ex footballers don't make good managers or coaches, therefore finding the right one is pretty difficult. So if you think of the great managers, Busby, Ramsey, Clough, Shankly, Paisley, Ferguson, PEP etc, what made them successful? In the 1966 England world cup winning team only one player went on tho have a decent management record and that was Jack Charlton. Brian Clough said most football management is 90% the same, it's the other 10% that makes the difference. Coaches and managers who have the correct training badges can probably set up a team tactically and can recognise good players. So is it in the end about the ability to motivate, too get players playing above their basic ability, too get them playing as a team and knowing when to be caring and when to be tough. Clough had a great partnership with Peter Taylor who searched out the players and kept Cloghie in a semblance of order. But it was a true partnership not master servant style which is what our set up is looking like. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 24, 2024 13:54:00 GMT
How are Pelach's methods so different to what we saw under Schuey?. As far as I can see, both like to play, high tempo, fast paced front foot football, pressing high?. Gibson seems to allude that it is something we've not seen before?. He talks about the differences we will see. I'm no coach but he talks about marking space not opposition players which makes sense to me-if the ball's in your part of the field it's your responsibility to win it, if a player is free in your part of the field why? I felt on Friday that Junior tucked in far too close to the centre halves leaving a huge gap on our right which Hull exploited by bringing on a left winger at half time. He also talks about diagonal balls out of defence. I'm guessing that's because it's far less dangerous to lose the ball out wide than centrally as we saw with Wilmot's failed pass down the middle. Pelach was mad about that. The other thing he talked about is keeping possession even if it means passing back. He says you do that to draw teams out and then you pass quickly to players like Million and Junho who can exploit that space. He says the chances we created in the first half were down to that tactic. He also claimed that we stopped doing these things in the second half which, along with tiredness and not reacting calmly enough to conceding, stopping using our brains, as reasons why we were not as good in the second half. Fair enough analysis from what I saw. I liked the fact that he was able to talk intelligently about why we lost instead of saying he had no idea. |
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Post by Pugsley on Sept 24, 2024 14:03:36 GMT
Absolutely would. Class is class whatever level. doubt we will ever know but would be fascinating to see a Klopp or a Pep manage a side on a limited budget > to be fair Klopp did at Mainz I do agree with March's point is that Peps number 1 quality is his ability to mana manage superstar players , as such a different skill ste required for managing non super stars however Pep is clearly an incredibly intense coach so that would be the same The other example would be Ancelotti who is probably the best manager/head coach alive when it comes to managing superstars (& big club boardrooms), don't think he's as adept tactically (not shit by any mans) as we saw at Everton There are also examples the other way of manager/head coach who are superb at getting the best out of limited players but struggle when managing superstars Pep has reshaped football in this country. Man management of superstars is not his number one quality, it's his ability to coach and improve footballers. |
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Post by rowleyscfc on Sept 24, 2024 14:10:15 GMT
The games moved on from the early 2000's though, not a single team hoofs it to a big man anymore and if they do they're playing in the lower leagues of the game. No one likes Wilmot and Tchamadue in any football capacity atm, You don't hate them because they're passing it out the back, you hate it because they can't do it. I feel like when i said people are stuck in the stone age it's people who maybe aren't aware of why teams play out from the back, like it's not just because it looks nice. The style aint the issue the players trying to adopt it are Part of me thinks football is worse for it though. Far too many games I start watching these days, only to lose interest quickly and go and do something else. It's mainly due to the football on offer being so boring. I still think there's a place for blood and thunder, get the ball forward quickly and overload on attacks. Can't say i disagree, For me Liverpool under Klopp were a far more entertaining side than City under Pep, But in the same token we have very short memories of watching Pulis sides set up to not even bother getting out of our half in some away games |
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Post by geoff321 on Sept 24, 2024 14:30:47 GMT
The vast majority of ex footballers don't make good managers or coaches, therefore finding the right one is pretty difficult. So if you think of the great managers, Busby, Ramsey, Clough, Shankly, Paisley, Ferguson, PEP etc, what made them successful? In the 1966 England world cup winning team only one player went on tho have a decent management record and that was Jack Charlton. Brian Clough said most football management is 90% the same, it's the other 10% that makes the difference. Coaches and managers who have the correct training badges can probably set up a team tactically and can recognise good players. So is it in the end about the ability to motivate, too get players playing above their basic ability, too get them playing as a team and knowing when to be caring and when to be tough. Clough had a great partnership with Peter Taylor who searched out the players and kept Cloghie in a semblance of order. But it was a true partnership not master servant style which is what our set up is looking like. Agree. Like you I prefer a simple structure where there's no doubt who is responsible for what, without the confusion of who is to blame if things go wrong. There was never any confusion at Old Trafford when Alex Ferguson was there, that didn't go too badly did it? |
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Post by gingerninja on Sept 24, 2024 14:33:25 GMT
I can not understand why we are so narrow at the back. The opposition switch play and the wide players have yards to run into and attack the full backs almost on the 18 yard line, seems ridiculous.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Sept 24, 2024 14:49:23 GMT
doubt we will ever know but would be fascinating to see a Klopp or a Pep manage a side on a limited budget > to be fair Klopp did at Mainz I do agree with March's point is that Peps number 1 quality is his ability to mana manage superstar players , as such a different skill ste required for managing non super stars however Pep is clearly an incredibly intense coach so that would be the same The other example would be Ancelotti who is probably the best manager/head coach alive when it comes to managing superstars (& big club boardrooms), don't think he's as adept tactically (not shit by any mans) as we saw at Everton There are also examples the other way of manager/head coach who are superb at getting the best out of limited players but struggle when managing superstars Pep has reshaped football in this country. Man management of superstars is not his number one quality, it's his ability to coach and improve footballers. Reshaped, definitely. Improved, not so sure. Give me a 05/06 PL game over anything nowadays where the likes of Ferguson, Wenger and Mourinho were pitting their wits against each other. |
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Post by femark on Sept 24, 2024 14:53:21 GMT
I can not understand why we are so narrow at the back. The opposition switch play and the wide players have yards to run into and attack the full backs almost on the 18 yard line, seems ridiculous. The idea is that it makes you more compact in the middle, where most goals are conceded. If the defensive full back start too wide then the space between them and the centre backs can be exploited which is more dangerous than the space out wide. |
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Post by davethebass on Sept 24, 2024 16:03:28 GMT
I've just watched his interview on the Stoke YouYube channel. He looks like a hypersexual Carl Muggleton. I'm sold. (and tumescent) I was in a queue behind Muggers in a chip shop once. Actually, weirdly, twice. True. When handed his chips he dropped them and I stepped in to catch them. False. But I was ready and primed in case he actually did drop them. True. I was in a queue behind Phil Jupitus at a hot dog stall at Glastonbury in 2008. True. They were quite big hot dogs and he bought two of them. I just got the one. True. He turned and said to me "I'm going to eat both of these all to myself" and I laughed. False. But I was ready and primed in case he actually did turn and speak to me. True. Actually, false, because I was struggling to think of any suitable funny one liners, which I thought he probably wouldn't appreciate anyway cos he was on holiday from all that, so was actually relieved when he didn't speak to me. True |
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Post by GrahamHyde on Sept 24, 2024 16:35:54 GMT
Everything I hear about this guy is positive, but it seems to me that we need to suffer short-term pain to achieve long-term gain, particularly as we've made this change during the season.
It seems like he's a real innovator, someone who is obsessive and has a clear vision of how he wants his teams to play.
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Post by iglugluk on Sept 24, 2024 17:40:18 GMT
Yep any manager worth his salt will realise you have to cut your coat according to your cloth. Philosophy is all well and good but if it doesn't take into account the skillset available it will be doomed to failure. Any decent philosophical approach has to be rooted in real World possibilities, otherwise it will simply will not work. Didn't Pelach say he would assess the players strengths and adapt the playing style to them rather than impose a predefined playing style? Jones, Neil and Schumacher were all guilty of trying to impose a style on the wrong players and it didn't work. Yes I believe he did say that, hopefully he's able to apply it. Flexibility in approach is likely to be necessary given the options available to him. |
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Post by ChesterStokie on Sept 24, 2024 17:56:01 GMT
Part of me thinks football is worse for it though. Far too many games I start watching these days, only to lose interest quickly and go and do something else. It's mainly due to the football on offer being so boring. I still think there's a place for blood and thunder, get the ball forward quickly and overload on attacks. Can't say i disagree. For me Liverpool under Klopp were a far more entertaining side than City under Pep, But in the same token we have very short memories of watching Pulis sides set up to not even bother getting out of our half in some away games I don’t have a short memory of those away performances under Pulis. They still haunt me to this day. |
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Post by rowleyscfc on Sept 25, 2024 7:37:41 GMT
Can't say i disagree. For me Liverpool under Klopp were a far more entertaining side than City under Pep, But in the same token we have very short memories of watching Pulis sides set up to not even bother getting out of our half in some away games I don’t have a short memory of those away performances under Pulis. They still haunt me to this day. Sometimes wake up in cold sweats thinking about them, Remember playing 4 CB's away at Wigan and it may have been the worst game of football I've ever seen |
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Post by chell_rosey on Sept 25, 2024 10:16:25 GMT
Still pronounce his name as 'Nancy Pelosi'.
No idea why.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Sept 25, 2024 10:29:25 GMT
If he wants to play this high intensity Pressing football - its clear we are not fit enough for it.
HOWEVER we are allowed 5 subs per game now.
Surely it would make sense to make 4 subs BEFORE the 60 minute mark to at least freshen up the midfield/attack to continue the high-intensity.
It was weird that the team was completely shagged after 35 minutes last week and yet the first sub was only after 65 mins. Ok the bench wasnt the strongest we could have available - but surely we have to just commit to make subs earlier in games
I dont need to be a football analytics expert to work that one out - MAKE SUBS EARLIER - with 5 subs allowed thats half the outfield players per game.
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Post by devondumpling on Sept 25, 2024 10:40:53 GMT
Not a chance. He’d be gone well before the end of the season. It’s horses for courses. Absolutely would. Class is class whatever level. No he's not. Only managed teams with excellent players and loadsa money. It's like 5 a side back at school when you took turns at picking players for your team, only difference Guardiola gets to pick the best 5 for his team and the next best 5 for his subs, before anyone else gets a look in. Oh and had Messi through Barcelona. |
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