Hoever

[idle]

Aug 7, 2024 21:24:08 GMT hcstokie said:

Aug 7, 2024 20:12:48 GMT baconburger said:

Pretty much shows you wouldn't know a footballer if you saw one.

My idea of a footballer, especially a defender, is a playing that;

1. Has a semblance of positional play
2. Doesn’t consistently lose their man
3. Doesn’t get done 1v1 repeatedly
4. Doesn’t give a guilt-edged chance to the opposition EVERY game
5. Doesn’t play the type of cross-field pass across the defence that is coached out of you at primary school age

Over the course of a season, a defender that does the above, will cost a team far more points than he wins by chipping in with a couple of goals.

Hoever was a calamity last year, despite having a few good games at the end of the season.

The problem is, most of these points except #3 and #4 is due to tactics.

1. He (and Jr.) is being played as wingbacks/attacking fullbacks. That means they leave space behind them. A tactical choice from the manager. He's been fine when playing RCB.
2. See #1. The only times he's been really poor at this is when we play the division's best inverted wingers, like Clarke.
3. He's average at this, I concede that.
4. This is just bullshit hyperbole. List me 20 chances he singelhandedly gave the opposition. No, I don't accept the "eye test" or whatever. I saw most of the games last year, and I remeber him giving the opposition less than 10 chances (that wasn't due to ANs and SSs tactics).
5. Again, this is tactical. They're being asked to keep the ball. Though, less under Shumacher, but both Neil and MON played like this.

The thing is that you want a different tactics. The Pulis way, with 4 CBs in defense. But you aren't going to get it with SS. So we need defenders who can do mare than defend.

[shrewspotter]

I like Hoever and I'd have him back

However, with adequate cover at rb with Tchamadeu and Gooch ( and Leris) I think priority should be elsewhere such as midfield and centre backs

[Chewbacca the Wookie]

Aug 8, 2024 6:47:03 GMT shrewspotter said:

I like Hoever and I'd have him back

However, with adequate cover at rb with Tchamadeu and Gooch ( and Leris) I think priority should be elsewhere such as midfield and centre backs

Up front too.

[mamasidibescfc]

Aug 8, 2024 6:45:06 GMT idle said:

Aug 7, 2024 21:24:08 GMT hcstokie said:

My idea of a footballer, especially a defender, is a playing that;

1. Has a semblance of positional play
2. Doesn’t consistently lose their man
3. Doesn’t get done 1v1 repeatedly
4. Doesn’t give a guilt-edged chance to the opposition EVERY game
5. Doesn’t play the type of cross-field pass across the defence that is coached out of you at primary school age

Over the course of a season, a defender that does the above, will cost a team far more points than he wins by chipping in with a couple of goals.

Hoever was a calamity last year, despite having a few good games at the end of the season.

The problem is, most of these points except #3 and #4 is due to tactics.

1. He (and Jr.) is being played as wingbacks/attacking fullbacks. That means they leave space behind them. A tactical choice from the manager. He's been fine when playing RCB.
2. See #1. The only times he's been really poor at this is when we play the division's best inverted wingers, like Clarke.
3. He's average at this, I concede that.
4. This is just bullshit hyperbole. List me 20 chances he singelhandedly gave the opposition. No, I don't accept the "eye test" or whatever. I saw most of the games last year, and I remeber him giving the opposition less than 10 chances (that wasn't due to ANs and SSs tactics).
5. Again, this is tactical. They're being asked to keep the ball. Though, less under Shumacher, but both Neil and MON played like this.

The thing is that you want a different tactics. The Pulis way, with 4 CBs in defense. But you aren't going to get it with SS. So we need defenders who can do mare than defend.

I think it's simpler than that Hoever isn't a defender, he's an attacking wing back. Which on his day he's brilliant at. My problem with him is he does lose concentration from time to time but you'd expect that to improve as he gets older

[retrostoke]

Wolves paid £9m for him. If Wolves are prepared to cut their losses and we take him cheap it’s good business.

He has significant flaws which can be addressed but he is also such a positive force going forward. On balance he’s an asset to our team and it’s a no brainer to go and get him if we can.

Having an experienced centre half alongside just might help with the concentration and positioning

[idle]

Aug 8, 2024 6:49:01 GMT mamasidibescfc said:

Aug 8, 2024 6:45:06 GMT idle said:

The problem is, most of these points except #3 and #4 is due to tactics.

1. He (and Jr.) is being played as wingbacks/attacking fullbacks. That means they leave space behind them. A tactical choice from the manager. He's been fine when playing RCB.
2. See #1. The only times he's been really poor at this is when we play the division's best inverted wingers, like Clarke.
3. He's average at this, I concede that.
4. This is just bullshit hyperbole. List me 20 chances he singelhandedly gave the opposition. No, I don't accept the "eye test" or whatever. I saw most of the games last year, and I remeber him giving the opposition less than 10 chances (that wasn't due to ANs and SSs tactics).
5. Again, this is tactical. They're being asked to keep the ball. Though, less under Shumacher, but both Neil and MON played like this.

The thing is that you want a different tactics. The Pulis way, with 4 CBs in defense. But you aren't going to get it with SS. So we need defenders who can do mare than defend.

I think it's simpler than that Hoever isn't a defender, he's an attacking wing back. Which on his day he's brilliant at. My problem with him is he does lose concentration from time to time but you'd expect that to improve as he gets older

Yeah, he's better at that, but was still ok as a RCB, which suggest that he has had problems fulfilling the role he's been given. I suspect it's because of a mostly missing midfield at large portions of last season.

[s7oke]

Aug 8, 2024 5:17:20 GMT GeneralFaye said:

Aug 7, 2024 23:04:48 GMT matelot1996 said:

He simply can’t defend. His mentality is attacking football. Never a wingback, hence why he is struggling with his game.

Just because he's a poor defender, it doesn't therefore make him a winger by default.

He reminds me of a poor man’s Alexander Arnold
Ok going forward and poor defensively
But with more mistakes

[bayernoatcake]

Wolves fans must hate him?

9m, 40k a week and alls he can muster is some crap performances out on loan in the Championship 🤣

[monsoonmoon]

Genuinely thought some of his defensive work improved towards the end of the season, mainly one vs one and on the recovery. He and Manhoef started to gel together once he had a competent and reliable partner in-front of him. Clearly there remain flaws but he’s still young and has room for growth, but I think he was starting to show positive signs.

For me, he and Junho were two prime examples of players who benefitted from having a head coach is Schumacher rather than a traditional manager in Neil.

Saying someone can’t defend is so lazy and reductive, imo. You wouldn’t say an attacking player can’t attack if they keep shanking a cross - it’s too broad a brushstroke. There’s a lot more nuance to it.

[prestwichpotter]

Aug 8, 2024 8:33:34 GMT monsoonmoon said:

Genuinely thought some of his defensive work improved towards the end of the season, mainly one vs one and on the recovery. He and Manhoef started to gel together once he had a competent and reliable partner in-front of him. Clearly there remain flaws but he’s still young and has room for growth, but I think he was starting to show positive signs.

For me, he and Junho were two prime examples of players who benefitted from having a head coach is Schumacher rather than a traditional manager in Neil.

Saying someone can’t defend is so lazy and reductive, imo. You wouldn’t say an attacking player can’t attack if they keep shanking a cross - it’s too broad a brushstroke. There’s a lot more nuance to it.

Hoever's weakness was his lack of concentration in the danger area out wide at times, and occasional poor distribution which cost him.  He's a young lad still learning his trade.

Anyone who thinks he can't defend in 1 v 1 situations is watching a different sport as far as I'm concerned, that's one of his major strengths and there's not many better in the division.  As is the timing of his forward runs and combinations with Manhoeff in particular.......

[hcstokie]

Aug 8, 2024 6:45:06 GMT idle said:

Aug 7, 2024 21:24:08 GMT hcstokie said:

My idea of a footballer, especially a defender, is a playing that;

1. Has a semblance of positional play
2. Doesn’t consistently lose their man
3. Doesn’t get done 1v1 repeatedly
4. Doesn’t give a guilt-edged chance to the opposition EVERY game
5. Doesn’t play the type of cross-field pass across the defence that is coached out of you at primary school age

Over the course of a season, a defender that does the above, will cost a team far more points than he wins by chipping in with a couple of goals.

Hoever was a calamity last year, despite having a few good games at the end of the season.

The problem is, most of these points except #3 and #4 is due to tactics.

1. He (and Jr.) is being played as wingbacks/attacking fullbacks. That means they leave space behind them. A tactical choice from the manager. He's been fine when playing RCB.
2. See #1. The only times he's been really poor at this is when we play the division's best inverted wingers, like Clarke.
3. He's average at this, I concede that.
4. This is just bullshit hyperbole. List me 20 chances he singelhandedly gave the opposition. No, I don't accept the "eye test" or whatever. I saw most of the games last year, and I remeber him giving the opposition less than 10 chances (that wasn't due to ANs and SSs tactics).
5. Again, this is tactical. They're being asked to keep the ball. Though, less under Shumacher, but both Neil and MON played like this.

The thing is that you want a different tactics. The Pulis way, with 4 CBs in defense. But you aren't going to get it with SS. So we need defenders who can do mare than defend.

I’m not saying the tactics are playing to his strengths, but the tactics cannot be blamed for him getting caught on the wrong side of attackers repeatedly or losing runners.

He had a rotten spell through the middle of the season where he seemed to give a guilt edged chance away every match. Even if this amount to 10 as you suggest, that’s 1 every 4 games over the course of a season which is simply too many if we’re looking to improve as a side.

You also can’t blame tactics for him misplacing passes. He’d pass square into the space between our defence and midfield and they’d be cut out. This is just poor play, and if we’re trying to retain possession the ball should either go to one or the other, not in between.

I don’t want 4 CBs at all, I want consistency and defenders that make it hard for the opposition to create chances.

[nottsover60]

Aug 7, 2024 21:50:39 GMT hcstokie said:

Aug 7, 2024 21:28:36 GMT sealion100 said:

You’ve just described Jnr !!!

That may be the case, but that doesn’t mean it’s not equally true about Hoever.

At least Junior is our player, younger, and one we could develop and profit from.

He is not as good technically. Junior is first and foremost an athlete who plays football and as such cannot be developed to the level which Hoever could reach. 

[baconburger]

Aug 7, 2024 22:34:16 GMT matelot1996 said:

Hoever is not a defender, he is a winger. Therefore, he doesn’t fit the way we have been playing for the last few seasons.
He certainly can’t cover 3 different positions and expect to do them all proficiently. He has been badly Mis-managed.
If he plays at another club in an attacking / winger role he will do well.

Wow that’s about as wrong as it’s possible to be but I understand you’re entitled to your opinion.

[nottsover60]

Aug 8, 2024 6:49:01 GMT mamasidibescfc said:

Aug 8, 2024 6:45:06 GMT idle said:

The problem is, most of these points except #3 and #4 is due to tactics.

1. He (and Jr.) is being played as wingbacks/attacking fullbacks. That means they leave space behind them. A tactical choice from the manager. He's been fine when playing RCB.
2. See #1. The only times he's been really poor at this is when we play the division's best inverted wingers, like Clarke.
3. He's average at this, I concede that.
4. This is just bullshit hyperbole. List me 20 chances he singelhandedly gave the opposition. No, I don't accept the "eye test" or whatever. I saw most of the games last year, and I remeber him giving the opposition less than 10 chances (that wasn't due to ANs and SSs tactics).
5. Again, this is tactical. They're being asked to keep the ball. Though, less under Shumacher, but both Neil and MON played like this.

The thing is that you want a different tactics. The Pulis way, with 4 CBs in defense. But you aren't going to get it with SS. So we need defenders who can do mare than defend.

I think it's simpler than that Hoever isn't a defender, he's an attacking wing back. Which on his day he's brilliant at. My problem with him is he does lose concentration from time to time but you'd expect that to improve as he gets older

He proved he could defend when he played in a central three. His problem is knowing how to combine the two, when to attack, when to stay back, when to risk a pass, when just to belt it up field. That comes with experience. Stones always used to get caught out trying to play football in his own area. 

[gaznandi]

[GeneralFaye]

2/3 months?.. I mean, thats a conversation ender even if I wanted him back.

[baconburger]

Aug 8, 2024 9:55:02 GMT GeneralFaye said:

2/3 months?.. I mean, thats a conversation ender even if I wanted him back.

Nowt like latching on to something however improbable it’s content. 2 to 3 months? Is his arm hanging off??

[Old School Stokie]

Bryan Robson never got over his dislocated shoulder injury, so great care is required if buying - loan best option with a "send back clause"

[nottsover60]

Aug 8, 2024 10:10:43 GMT Old School Stokie said:

Bryan Robson never got over his dislocated shoulder injury, so great care is required if buying - loan best option with a "send back clause"

And Fuller played with his strapped up. 

[idle]

Aug 8, 2024 9:42:41 GMT hcstokie said:

I’m not saying the tactics are playing to his strengths, but the tactics cannot be blamed for him getting caught on the wrong side of attackers repeatedly or losing runners.

He had a rotten spell through the middle of the season where he seemed to give a guilt edged chance away every match. Even if this amount to 10 as you suggest, that’s 1 every 4 games over the course of a season which is simply too many if we’re looking to improve as a side.

I remember 2 goals where he was directly responsible, and a handful of chances mostly of the type that also happened on the left, and frankly is part of football.

Aug 8, 2024 9:42:41 GMT hcstokie said:

You also can’t blame tactics for him misplacing passes. He’d pass square into the space between our defence and midfield and they’d be cut out. This is just poor play, and if we’re trying to retain possession the ball should either go to one or the other, not in between.

The whole back four did this, it's what keeping possesion looks like. He had a couple of bad passes, but nothing like every game. That's hyperbole.

Aug 8, 2024 9:42:41 GMT hcstokie said:

I don’t want 4 CBs at all, I want consistency and defenders that make it hard for the opposition to create chances.

Fair enough, but if you want your fullback to attack, you have to take the risk of them being out of position on counters. That's the nature of risk vs. risk averse football.

[robwahlmann]

Aug 8, 2024 11:31:55 GMT idle said:

Aug 8, 2024 9:42:41 GMT hcstokie said:

I’m not saying the tactics are playing to his strengths, but the tactics cannot be blamed for him getting caught on the wrong side of attackers repeatedly or losing runners.

He had a rotten spell through the middle of the season where he seemed to give a guilt edged chance away every match. Even if this amount to 10 as you suggest, that’s 1 every 4 games over the course of a season which is simply too many if we’re looking to improve as a side.

I remember 2 goals where he was directly responsible, and a handful of chances mostly of the type that also happened on the left, and frankly is part of football.

Aug 8, 2024 9:42:41 GMT hcstokie said:

You also can’t blame tactics for him misplacing passes. He’d pass square into the space between our defence and midfield and they’d be cut out. This is just poor play, and if we’re trying to retain possession the ball should either go to one or the other, not in between.

The whole back four did this, it's what keeping possesion looks like. He had a couple of bad passes, but nothing like every game. That's hyperbole.

Aug 8, 2024 9:42:41 GMT hcstokie said:

I don’t want 4 CBs at all, I want consistency and defenders that make it hard for the opposition to create chances.

Fair enough, but if you want your fullback to attack, you have to take the risk of them being out of position on counters. That's the nature of risk vs. risk averse football.

Still should be harder to get past than a todler in one on one situations though!

[idle]

Aug 8, 2024 11:36:45 GMT robwahlmann said:

Aug 8, 2024 11:31:55 GMT idle said:

I remember 2 goals where he was directly responsible, and a handful of chances mostly of the type that also happened on the left, and frankly is part of football.

The whole back four did this, it's what keeping possesion looks like. He had a couple of bad passes, but nothing like every game. That's hyperbole.

Fair enough, but if you want your fullback to attack, you have to take the risk of them being out of position on counters. That's the nature of risk vs. risk averse football.

Still should be harder to get past than a todler in one on one situations though!

And he did ok to well as a RCB, but people will have their agendas regardless.

[robwahlmann]

Aug 8, 2024 11:38:51 GMT idle said:

Aug 8, 2024 11:36:45 GMT robwahlmann said:

Still should be harder to get past than a todler in one on one situations though!

And he did ok to well as a RCB, but people will have their agendas regardless.

He actually did, but was dreadful when trying to defend as a fullback!

[stokief]

I'd like to see him and Cundle back as think they'd be good assets if we could get off to a good positive and confident start. However, I'm not sure about taking on a player with an injury that could take more time to recover than is considered is a great deal. If it is a shoulder dislocation then there are often relapses in recovery.

[hcstokie]

Aug 8, 2024 9:45:56 GMT nottsover60 said:

Aug 7, 2024 21:50:39 GMT hcstokie said:

That may be the case, but that doesn’t mean it’s not equally true about Hoever.

At least Junior is our player, younger, and one we could develop and profit from.

He is not as good technically. Junior is first and foremost an athlete who plays football and as such cannot be developed to the level which Hoever could reach. 

He’s a couple of years younger, so has potentially to improve technically.

I don’t really care what level Hoever could reach, he’s not our player. I’d prefer us to develop Junior into a £5-10m player that we profit from, than developing Hoever into a £20m that Wolves profit from.

[idle]

Aug 8, 2024 11:40:53 GMT robwahlmann said:

Aug 8, 2024 11:38:51 GMT idle said:

And he did ok to well as a RCB, but people will have their agendas regardless.

He actually did, but was dreadful when trying to defend as a fullback!

Soooo, tactical blunder from AN and SS?

I think his worst part is marking thight enough to stop crosses without getting skinned, and he would have to do less of that as a RCB. That's my armchair tactical analysis of the day done!

[nottsover60]

Aug 8, 2024 12:10:45 GMT hcstokie said:

Aug 8, 2024 9:45:56 GMT nottsover60 said:

He is not as good technically. Junior is first and foremost an athlete who plays football and as such cannot be developed to the level which Hoever could reach. 

He’s a couple of years younger, so has potentially to improve technically.

I don’t really care what level Hoever could reach, he’s not our player. I’d prefer us to develop Junior into a £5-10m player that we profit from, than developing Hoever into a £20m that Wolves profit from.

I want us to have the best squad possible this season, not a squad full of players who could become really good in a couple of seasons when another club will come in for them because their contract has run out. No player truly belongs to a club and very few have loyalty to a club that develops them. Junior already jumped ship for a bigger club and better wages when he joined us. 

[robwahlmann]

Aug 8, 2024 12:46:40 GMT idle said:

Aug 8, 2024 11:40:53 GMT robwahlmann said:

He actually did, but was dreadful when trying to defend as a fullback!

Soooo, tactical blunder from AN and SS?

I think his worst part is marking thight enough to stop crosses without getting skinned, and he would have to do less of that as a RCB. That's my armchair tactical analysis of the day done!

Will we play with 3 or 4 at the back then? With 3 he can be used on the right, but as a fullback I don't trust him at all!

[baconburger]

Aug 8, 2024 13:57:54 GMT robwahlmann said:

Aug 8, 2024 12:46:40 GMT idle said:

Soooo, tactical blunder from AN and SS?

I think his worst part is marking thight enough to stop crosses without getting skinned, and he would have to do less of that as a RCB. That's my armchair tactical analysis of the day done!

Will we play with 3 or 4 at the back then? With 3 he can be used on the right, but as a fullback I don't trust him at all!

Thankfully the person who selects the team does.

[stokiejoe89]

Sone are saying it could actually be Jayden Mears