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Post by generationex on Mar 27, 2024 22:46:35 GMT
The surcharge is a admin fee introduced by the tories to contribute to court running costs. It’s mandatory. Often laughable with homeless crack heads but always imposed. The ‘victim’ surcharge is now usually just called the surcharge. That was the now abolished criminal courts charge....not the victim surcharge It’s a standard charge - the fee is based upon the offence type. For political reasons the name changes. The criminal courts charge was abolished because it resulted in fanciful rates (often thousands) for those with nothing. Usual Tory bullshit. Trust me I deal with this every day of the week. Even the £90 - £180 surcharge is a joke for many defendants.
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Post by tuum on Mar 27, 2024 22:52:20 GMT
None of the articles I have read on this matter mention the specific act/law that has been broken. In searching to find out exactly what the law says I came across this article from "Spiked". It presents an alternative view that,in my opinion, should not be dismissed out of hand. www.spiked-online.com/2023/08/11/english-footballs-new-blasphemy-laws/I also finally found a reference to the laws that apply specifically to this offence (there are many more general football laws). "Such conduct may amount to an offence under the Public Order Act 1986, notably under section 5 (harassment, alarm or distress) or section 4A (intentional harassment, alarm or distress). See the Public Order Offences guidance for details of these offences." www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/football-related-offences-and-football-banning-ordersIt looks to me like the law has been in place for quite a while but we have chosen not to apply it to tragedy chanting until the new quidelines were issued in mid-2023. At first glance, this does not sit comfortably with me. I see it as more control over our lives out of proportion to the offence. Happy for people to explain to me why this is good law and is absolutely necessary.
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Post by willieeetmiout on Mar 27, 2024 22:56:20 GMT
That was the now abolished criminal courts charge....not the victim surcharge It’s a standard charge - the fee is based upon the offence type. For political reasons the name changes. The criminal courts charge was abolished because it resulted in fanciful rates for those with nothing. Usual Tory bullshit. Trust me I deal with this every day of the week. Even the £90 - £180 surcharge is a joke for many defendants. I'm really concerned if you deal with this everyday of the week because you are dealing with it incorrectly. The criminal courts charge began in April 2015. It was abolished in Dec 2015. The amount was based on whether the offence was summary only or either way and whether a guilty plea or not guilty plea was entered. The victim surcharge which was in force at the same time and still remains in force is a surcharge to fund victim services. The amount is based on the sentence received. For example a conditional discharge is £26. A prison sentence of less than 6 months is £154.
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Post by generationex on Mar 27, 2024 23:02:03 GMT
Yes it’s true that Tragedy Chanting became defined as legally offensive relatively recently.
But until the 1990s racist chanting was not regarded as criminal either.
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Post by generationex on Mar 27, 2024 23:08:49 GMT
It’s a standard charge - the fee is based upon the offence type. For political reasons the name changes. The criminal courts charge was abolished because it resulted in fanciful rates for those with nothing. Usual Tory bullshit. Trust me I deal with this every day of the week. Even the £90 - £180 surcharge is a joke for many defendants. I'm really concerned if you deal with this everyday of the week because you are dealing with it incorrectly. The criminal courts charge began in April 2015. It was abolished in Dec 2015. The amount was based on whether the offence was summary only or either way and whether a guilty plea or not guilty plea was entered. The victim surcharge which was in force at the same time and still remains in force is a surcharge to fund victim services. The amount is based on the sentence received. For example a conditional discharge is £26. A prison sentence of less than 6 months is £154. Well it must be not just me that gets it wrong but every Judge in the court system. No one calls it a victim surcharge in the Crown Court anymore. I agree it funds victim services. But the point originally was ‘who is the victim from offensive chanting?’ So why is it a victim surcharge? That’s not the intention or point.
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Post by maine on Mar 27, 2024 23:08:58 GMT
For what it's worth (I'm a retired Professor of Criminology) I find it hard to argue with the article from 'Spiked' cited by 'TUUM'. There is a clear and disturbing tendency to attempt to use 'moral outrage' to criminalize a wide range of activities which are 'merely' deemed 'offensive' by some others. Whilst 'tragedy chanting' is offensive, and from my perspective deplorable, I'm sceptical of the knee jerk response which seeks to use criminal law in reference to any and everything which upsets others.
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Post by willieeetmiout on Mar 27, 2024 23:13:57 GMT
I'm really concerned if you deal with this everyday of the week because you are dealing with it incorrectly. The criminal courts charge began in April 2015. It was abolished in Dec 2015. The amount was based on whether the offence was summary only or either way and whether a guilty plea or not guilty plea was entered. The victim surcharge which was in force at the same time and still remains in force is a surcharge to fund victim services. The amount is based on the sentence received. For example a conditional discharge is £26. A prison sentence of less than 6 months is £154. No one calls it a victim surcharge in the Crown Court anymore. I agree it funds victim services. But the point originally was ‘who is the victim from offensive chanting?’ So why is it a victim surcharge? That’s not the intention or point. It's called the victim surcharge because its a surcharge that funds victim services? You say no one, I do.
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Post by willieeetmiout on Mar 27, 2024 23:17:57 GMT
Yes it’s true that Tragedy Chanting became defined as legally offensive relatively recently. But until the 1990s racist chanting was not regarded as criminal either. "Tragedy chanting" would have been an offence way back in 1984 when the Public Order Act was introduced as would have "racist chanting". Just because they were rarely prosecuted doesn't mean they weren't criminal offences. Specific offences could be deemed racially aggravated in the late 90s with the introduction of the Crime and Disorder Act.
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Post by generationex on Mar 27, 2024 23:21:29 GMT
Yes I agree.
It’s case law that interpreters the legislation though.
Times change.
The law is a living thing.
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Post by lstokie on Mar 27, 2024 23:44:26 GMT
No one calls it a victim surcharge in the Crown Court anymore. I agree it funds victim services. But the point originally was ‘who is the victim from offensive chanting?’ So why is it a victim surcharge? That’s not the intention or point. It's called the victim surcharge because its a surcharge that funds victim services? You say no one, I do. "I call it this so thats what it is". After calling someone out so strongly on this, this is hilarious 😂
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Post by franklin on Mar 28, 2024 6:14:12 GMT
And towards compensation to victims of crime like is said. Doesn't. That's the Criminal injuries compensation board. Totally different You mean CICA i think Criminal injuries compensation authority. And as for the surcharge: In the legal system of England and Wales, the surcharge, often referred to as a victim surcharge is a penalty applied to people convicted of offences, in addition to a conditional discharge, a fine, or a community or custodial sentence, in order to provide compensation for the victims of crime.[1][2] The surcharge is not paid directly to the criminal's victim, but is pooled and distributed through the Victim and Witness General Fund. Is this incorrect?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 28, 2024 6:29:41 GMT
Yes it’s unforgivable. That said so is booing the national anthem. So is teaching youngsters the warped view of Hillsboro in Merseyside schools . Time Liverpool Grew up . Holding totally unjustified grudges going back 40 plus years ago . Warped view? WTF?
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Post by franklin on Mar 28, 2024 8:31:00 GMT
As distasteful as it maybe I have to say we're on a slippery slope to become an Authoritarian State where any "offence" could lead to prosecution and I want nothing to do with it. I'm off to a get together tomorrow night friends and family and it'll hopefully be the usual inappropriate brutal druken bloodthirsty pisstaking night they always are.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 28, 2024 8:52:45 GMT
As distasteful as it maybe I have to say we're on a slippery slope to become an Authoritarian State where any "offence" could lead to prosecution and I want nothing to do with it. I'm off to a get together tomorrow night friends and family and it'll hopefully be the usual inappropriate brutal druken bloodthirsty pisstaking night they always are. That all sounds great and happens up and down the land when people get together. I have a friend whose 17 year old daughter got killed in a horrific hit and run incident, she had to be identified by her dental records. if I had a few beers and started mocking the incident in question would that just be brutal drunken bloodthirsty piss taking, I mean it was 25 years ago after all?
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Post by franklin on Mar 28, 2024 9:03:08 GMT
As distasteful as it maybe I have to say we're on a slippery slope to become an Authoritarian State where any "offence" could lead to prosecution and I want nothing to do with it. I'm off to a get together tomorrow night friends and family and it'll hopefully be the usual inappropriate brutal druken bloodthirsty pisstaking night they always are. That all sounds great and happens up and down the land when people get together. I have a friend whose 17 year old daughter got killed in a horrific hit and run incident, she had to be identified by her dental records. if I had a few beers and started mocking the incident in question would that just be brutal drunken bloodthirsty piss taking, I mean it was 25 years ago after all? Ah always go to the extreme don't you what a ridiculous thing to say behave yourself.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 28, 2024 9:27:41 GMT
That all sounds great and happens up and down the land when people get together. I have a friend whose 17 year old daughter got killed in a horrific hit and run incident, she had to be identified by her dental records. if I had a few beers and started mocking the incident in question would that just be brutal drunken bloodthirsty piss taking, I mean it was 25 years ago after all? Ah always go to the extreme don't you what a ridiculous thing to say behave yourself. I just wondered what does or doesn't come under "drunken bloodthirsty piss taking" that was all? Would you and your mates sat around taking the piss out of innocent Hillsborough victims for example?
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Post by werrington on Mar 28, 2024 9:32:11 GMT
That all sounds great and happens up and down the land when people get together. I have a friend whose 17 year old daughter got killed in a horrific hit and run incident, she had to be identified by her dental records. if I had a few beers and started mocking the incident in question would that just be brutal drunken bloodthirsty piss taking, I mean it was 25 years ago after all? Ah always go to the extreme don't you what a ridiculous thing to say behave yourself. If god forbid it was one of your loved ones on the receiving end of this shit would you be ok with it then mate?
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Post by franklin on Mar 28, 2024 9:33:08 GMT
Ah always go to the extreme don't you what a ridiculous thing to say behave yourself. I just wondered what does or doesn't come under "drunken bloodthirsty piss taking" that was all? Would you and your mates sat around taking the piss out of innocent Hillsborough victims fall under that for example? I don't know mate I don't know your friends so you'd have to decide whether it was appropriate or not in your surroundings and have I ever heard or participated in jokes about death even my own potential death or demise absolutely I have but we know each other and it's appropriate in those surroundings.
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Post by franklin on Mar 28, 2024 9:38:30 GMT
Ah always go to the extreme don't you what a ridiculous thing to say behave yourself. If god forbid it was one of your loved ones on the receiving end of this shit would you be ok with it then mate? Are you suggesting at no point ever you or anyone you know has participated in "gallows" humour or joked about "inappropriate" subjects like death I find that hard to believe. In all your years and songs sang at Stoke you've never participated really?
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Post by werrington on Mar 28, 2024 9:42:43 GMT
If god forbid it was one of your loved ones on the receiving end of this shit would you be ok with it then mate? Are you suggesting at no point ever you or anyone you know has participated in "gallows" humour or joked about "inappropriate" subjects like death I find that hard to believe. In all your years and songs sang at Stoke you've never participated really? Yeah and I now feel a cunt for participating as eventually I grew up That doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for ever
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Post by franklin on Mar 28, 2024 9:48:43 GMT
Are you suggesting at no point ever you or anyone you know has participated in "gallows" humour or joked about "inappropriate" subjects like death I find that hard to believe. In all your years and songs sang at Stoke you've never participated really? Yeah and I now feel a cunt for participating as eventually I grew up That doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for ever So what's the issue we're both guilty of saying things some may find offensive my point wasn't specific about "chants" at football because its been some time since I've sung anything it was in the privacy of a home.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 28, 2024 9:48:52 GMT
I just wondered what does or doesn't come under "drunken bloodthirsty piss taking" that was all? Would you and your mates sat around taking the piss out of innocent Hillsborough victims fall under that for example? I don't know mate I don't know your friends so you'd have to decide whether it was appropriate or not in your surroundings and have I ever heard or participated in jokes about death even my own potential death or demise absolutely I have but we know each other and it's appropriate in those surroundings. Fair enough mate. Sitting around with a bunch of mates in your own living room is of course different to doing the same in a pub with other people around, but this is a thread about tragedy chanting and I just can't imagine any scenario where taking the piss out of people getting crushed to death at a football match would be funny or good banter (not saying you do either by the way) but each to their own......
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Post by werrington on Mar 28, 2024 9:52:43 GMT
Yeah and I now feel a cunt for participating as eventually I grew up That doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for ever So what's the issue we're both guilty of saying things some may find offensive my point wasn't specific about "chants" at football because its been some time since I've sung anything it was in the privacy of a home. I think many on here accepting of it as banter etc would feel differently if it was Stoke City or a Stoke City fan on the receiving end mate Anyway enjoy your Easter weekend 👍
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Post by nottsover60 on Mar 28, 2024 11:17:20 GMT
Doesn't make it right though. Were you never told that two wrongs don't make a right? And thirty years on you hope football supporters have evolved but it seems some haven't. Never once participated as I was too young and was with my dad at the time who was at the time pretty embarrassed…I was taught that two wrongs don’t make a right yes thank you….I just see some of the shit spouted on here by some when let’s face it they probably aren’t whiter than white and as someone alluded to that people tend to grow up🔴⚪️ Agree young fans often do things they are embarrassed by when they grow up but I'm talking about humanity in general evolving not just growing up. I can remember bananas being thrown on the pitch but I would like to think 100% of fans now would not dream of doing that and would be horrified to see it at their ground. Tragedy chanting used to be a common way of riling opposition fans but you hope most fans now are embarrassed but not obviously these two. They were doing it as individuals not part of a crowd chant and were of an age most would consider grown up, especially as we expect our 20 year old footballers to behave in a mature way. Those fans and any like them are an embarrassment to the club and the area and deserve at least what they got regardless of what anyone else does or did.
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Post by franklin on Mar 28, 2024 11:24:16 GMT
I don't know mate I don't know your friends so you'd have to decide whether it was appropriate or not in your surroundings and have I ever heard or participated in jokes about death even my own potential death or demise absolutely I have but we know each other and it's appropriate in those surroundings. Fair enough mate. Sitting around with a bunch of mates in your own living room is of course different to doing the same in a pub with other people around, but this is a thread about tragedy chanting and I just can't imagine any scenario where taking the piss out of people getting crushed to death at a football match would be funny or good banter (not saying you do either by the way) but each to their own...... Just before this takes on a life of its own two things I know its about tragedy chants and yes I've slightly diverted it to "death" as a whole and to clarify I've never sat around and taken the piss specifically out of anyone dying at a football match in any way although I have sung songs at football that did. But I have joked and found "humour" in death and other "inappropriate" subjects many times including my own heath issues over the years in fact im participating in a deadpool thread on this very forum.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 28, 2024 11:29:53 GMT
Fair enough mate. Sitting around with a bunch of mates in your own living room is of course different to doing the same in a pub with other people around, but this is a thread about tragedy chanting and I just can't imagine any scenario where taking the piss out of people getting crushed to death at a football match would be funny or good banter (not saying you do either by the way) but each to their own...... Just before this takes on a life of its own two things I know its about tragedy chants and yes I've slightly diverted it to "death" as a whole and to clarify I've never sat around and taken the piss specifically out of anyone dying at a football match in any way although I have sung songs at football that did. But I have joked and found "humour" in death and other "inappropriate" subjects many times including my own heath issues over the years.Absolutely, as have I. We've both drawn a distinction, for others they think they can say or do anything under the guise of "banter"
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Mar 28, 2024 11:51:35 GMT
Yes it’s unforgivable. That said so is booing the national anthem. So is teaching youngsters the warped view of Hillsboro in Merseyside schools . Time Liverpool Grew up . Holding totally unjustified grudges going back 40 plus years ago . What is the warped view of Hillsborough you say is being taught in Merseyside schools ? If that were true, it would be a serious matter of teachers professional behaviour which should be addressed. I would also like to talk our FSA affiliates in Liverpool about it to get their view. "Time Liverpool grew up" sounds like a prejudiced generalisation to me. We have been discussing the general issue of tragedy chanting in the FSA, including after the recent Man U v Liverpool game. It was also good to see on the news last night that Ex-Man U and Liverpool players have been visiting local schools to talk the kids about how inappropriate it is. But my perception is that it's not just, or even mainly, young supporters doing it. Many older fans, who should know better, are doing it. I'm afraid its been heard at various clubs. Sadly, as we see from this link, including Stoke City. It includes Hillsborough, Munich and Istambul chanting. But I would also include chanting about Jimmy Saville being "one of your own" ( which a significant number of our fans did at Elland Road) and "Lucy Letby one of your own" directed at Hereford fans, as inappropriate chanting. Saville had victims in Leeds. Letby killed babies. People talk about self-policing, which is fine as a principle, but in practice at a game, how do you stop it if a significant number of fans are doing it ? I would like to see more current players, not just ex-pros, saying it. Possibly even stopping playing in the game until it stops, which would be a high-profile way of getting the message across ?
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ian57
Academy Starlet
Posts: 128
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Post by ian57 on Mar 28, 2024 11:56:22 GMT
Yes it’s unforgivable. That said so is booing the national anthem. So is teaching youngsters the warped view of Hillsboro in Merseyside schools . Time Liverpool Grew up . Holding totally unjustified grudges going back 40 plus years ago . you need to do some proper research fella and stop reading the sun.
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Post by franklin on Mar 28, 2024 11:57:39 GMT
Just before this takes on a life of its own two things I know its about tragedy chants and yes I've slightly diverted it to "death" as a whole and to clarify I've never sat around and taken the piss specifically out of anyone dying at a football match in any way although I have sung songs at football that did. But I have joked and found "humour" in death and other "inappropriate" subjects many times including my own heath issues over the years.Absolutely, as have I. We've both drawn a distinction, for others they think they can say or do anything under the guise of "banter" I think we both agree on the premise of "time and place" and probably disagree on the thoughts on appropriate subject matter but I can live with that 🤷♂️
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 28, 2024 12:38:25 GMT
A ban from football grounds seems entirely reasonable to me and not over proportionate. It's not like they are being locked up for it. I wouldn't want these kind of people in a football ground and be paying to hear this crap tbh especially when representing my own club.
There definitely needs to be more education around this which shouldn't be the case since it seems like basic decency and human values. But unfortunately that's where we are at and some idiots still don't seem to get it.
I just hope they are ashamed about it, because that's how you learn sometimes!
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