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Post by nonameface on Nov 18, 2023 10:10:02 GMT
They'll appeal and it will be reduced to 5 points. Its the legal challenges that will do them over if they are found guilty in anyway. £300m lawsuit could make it so Everton's takeover doesn't happen and then they may go into administration which would incur a further 9 points deduction. The charge has happened relatively quickly, as the grounds for it came after man citys charges. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 18, 2023 10:59:11 GMT
Until such time as they default on monies owed to creditors, FFP penalties are ridiculous.
They've received a bigger points deduction for trying to compete, paying their bills yet generally being rubbish, than they would if the owner had spunked away money he didn't have, left a trail of destruction among creditors and basically actively tried to destroy the club.
FFP was brought in under the pretence of protecting sporting integrity when the reality was it was simply to ensure that the big clubs had the sporting world to themselves.
They punishment is ludicrous.
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Post by deeside2 on Nov 18, 2023 11:20:53 GMT
A few seasons ago in rugby union Saracens broke financial salary cap rules and were given a £7m fine (distributed amongst the other clubs in the league) and a 35 point deduction which dropped them to the bottom of the league but there were still sufficient games left for them to avoid the drop. When they were found to be certain to be in further breach of the rules during the season the original points deduction was imposed, they were given a further 35 point deduction, making 70 points total, thereby ensuring they were relegated from the top division.
They've since been promoted whilst questions still remain about their financial situation.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 18, 2023 11:49:40 GMT
Going back to when Cardiff signed Kav, Thorne,Whalley, Prior etc
A year or so later didn't they have to borrow money from the FA to pay wages?
That team Could easily have gone up at our expense, they basically gambled money they didn't have and it could easily have cost us another year at least in a lower division. Little sympathy with Everton , Kenwright was a great footballing man but they they broke the rules and other teams financially suffered as a result. There's always been clubs with more money and that will never change. We once broke a transfer world record back in the day. We're happy to laugh at the Bristol City guy moaning about us.
FFP solves nothing
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Nov 18, 2023 12:38:32 GMT
I suppose doing it to a none top 6 club,it Looks like they they are clamping down,only they wouldn't dare do the same to one of the so called big 6.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Nov 18, 2023 14:00:19 GMT
Going back to when Cardiff signed Kav, Thorne,Whalley, Prior etc A year or so later didn't they have to borrow money from the FA to pay wages? That team Could easily have gone up at our expense, they basically gambled money they didn't have and it could easily have cost us another year at least in a lower division. Little sympathy with Everton , Kenwright was a great footballing man but they they broke the rules and other teams financially suffered as a result. There's always been clubs with more money and that will never change. We once broke a transfer world record back in the day. We're happy to laugh at the Bristol City guy moaning about us. FFP solves nothing Cardiff didn't get done for cheating because FFP wasn't a thing then. Everton got done for cheating because FFP was in place. Get rid of FFP and more clubs will get away with cheating. No-one on here has explained how getting rid of FFP wil solve anything. The assumption is without FFP we will be fine because we have filthy rich owners who will buy us success - ie we just become one of the bastards that everyone currently complains about. Thing is that won't happen: 1 Our owners won't just throw money at the club - they won't put us at risk of bankruptcy. 2 Many clubs have less scrupulous owners. Get rid of FFP and the will load their clubs with debt in a desperate attempt to compete with the big boys. For a few years it will be like the wild west but as there are limited Champions League places and the Premier League only has 20 clubs the majority will fail to reach the promised land and will go bust. The big clubs will just keep on spending, raise the bar and just wait for their rivals to go out if business. Owners will be less scrupulous than they are now and the football league will be decimated. We will end up like the rest of Europe - 2 professional leagues and semi-pro/amature football. Please explain how scrapping FFP achieves anything but the above. |
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 18, 2023 14:09:22 GMT
Going back to when Cardiff signed Kav, Thorne,Whalley, Prior etc A year or so later didn't they have to borrow money from the FA to pay wages? That team Could easily have gone up at our expense, they basically gambled money they didn't have and it could easily have cost us another year at least in a lower division. Little sympathy with Everton , Kenwright was a great footballing man but they they broke the rules and other teams financially suffered as a result. There's always been clubs with more money and that will never change. We once broke a transfer world record back in the day. We're happy to laugh at the Bristol City guy moaning about us. FFP solves nothing Cardiff didn't get done for cheating because FFP wasn't a thing then. Everton got done for cheating because FFP was in place. Get rid of FFP and more clubs will get away with cheating. No-one on here has explained how getting rid of FFP wil solve anything. The assumption is without FFP we will be fine because we have filthy rich owners who will buy us success - ie we just become one of the bastards that everyone currently complains about. Thing is that won't happen: 1 Our owners won't just throw money at the club - they won't put us at risk of bankruptcy. 2 Many clubs have less scrupulous owners. Get rid of FFP and the will load their clubs with debt in a desperate attempt to compete with the big boys. For a few years it will be like the wild west but as there are limited Champions League places and the Premier League only has 29 clubs the majority will fail to reach the promised land and will go bust. The big clubs will just keep on spending, raise the bar and just wait for their rivals to go out if business. Owners will be less scrupulous than they are now and the football league will be decimated. We will end up like the rest of Europe - 2 professional leagues and semi-pro/amature football. Please explain how scrapping FFP achieves anything but the above. No one is arguing that Wasn't the point was making. Was that the Burnleys etc are right to feel hard done by in the same way I would have been if Cardiff had gone up instead of us. Obviously Everton have broke FFP rules and are being punished as a result, again no one disputing that |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Nov 18, 2023 14:12:37 GMT
Cardiff didn't get done for cheating because FFP wasn't a thing then. Everton got done for cheating because FFP was in place. Get rid of FFP and more clubs will get away with cheating. No-one on here has explained how getting rid of FFP wil solve anything. The assumption is without FFP we will be fine because we have filthy rich owners who will buy us success - ie we just become one of the bastards that everyone currently complains about. Thing is that won't happen: 1 Our owners won't just throw money at the club - they won't put us at risk of bankruptcy. 2 Many clubs have less scrupulous owners. Get rid of FFP and the will load their clubs with debt in a desperate attempt to compete with the big boys. For a few years it will be like the wild west but as there are limited Champions League places and the Premier League only has 29 clubs the majority will fail to reach the promised land and will go bust. The big clubs will just keep on spending, raise the bar and just wait for their rivals to go out if business. Owners will be less scrupulous than they are now and the football league will be decimated. We will end up like the rest of Europe - 2 professional leagues and semi-pro/amature football. Please explain how scrapping FFP achieves anything but the above. No one is arguing that Wasn't the point was making. Was that the Burnleys etc are right to feel hard done by in the same way I would have been if Cardiff had gone up instead of us. Obviously Everton have broke FFP rules and are being punished as a result, again no one disputing that You literally said FFP solves nothing and on an early post said it wants getting rid of. So how will it improve things? Incidentally you are not the only one on here who has said this and not one person has explained how it helps. |
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 18, 2023 14:58:40 GMT
No one is arguing that Wasn't the point was making. Was that the Burnleys etc are right to feel hard done by in the same way I would have been if Cardiff had gone up instead of us. Obviously Everton have broke FFP rules and are being punished as a result, again no one disputing that You literally said FFP solves nothing and on an early post said it wants getting rid of. So how will it improve things? Incidentally you are not the only one on here who has said this and not one person has explained how it helps. [blikr I said, has always been more wealthier clubs and will never change. Restricting clubs to spending has if anything restricted teams like us and the wealthier clubs with the income have been able to use the loophole of say 7 year contracts to spend still. Hasn't solved anything |
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Post by Royal Donut on Nov 18, 2023 15:14:34 GMT
How can Man City even get away with this, Everton if they are punished fairly then Man City are going get destroyed. It’s not even like they can hide it, they kid who hacked Man City emails posted everything online for everyone to see how can they hide this.
There’s emails with clear evidence of corruption from the Saudi royal family, surely Man City must be removed from the league like a rangers type punishment.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 18, 2023 15:52:40 GMT
How can Man City even get away with this, Everton if they are punished fairly then Man City are going get destroyed. It’s not even like they can hide it, they kid who hacked Man City emails posted everything online for everyone to see how can they hide this. There’s emails with clear evidence of corruption from the Saudi royal family, surely Man City must be removed from the league like a rangers type punishment. They haven't to be fair. The investigation took over 3 years and are now under investigation by an independent committee. At this time they've not been found guilty of anything but a good chance that will change |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Nov 18, 2023 17:18:34 GMT
You literally said FFP solves nothing and on an early post said it wants getting rid of. So how will it improve things? Incidentally you are not the only one on here who has said this and not one person has explained how it helps. [blikr I said, has always been more wealthier clubs and will never change. Restricting clubs to spending has if anything restricted teams like us and the wealthier clubs with the income have been able to use the loophole of say 7 year contracts to spend still. Hasn't solved anything It's only Chelsea who used the 7 year loophole and that's been closed. The problem was resolved by adding to the FFP rules, not scrapping them. No system of rules is going to completely get rid of cheating, cheats will try something else. You can't eradicate cheating bit you can reduce the frequency and impact. Arguing that FFP is a waste of time because you still get cheats is the same as arguing flood defences are a waste of time because you still get floods. |
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Post by Rt Hon Reverend Luvpump on Nov 18, 2023 17:31:25 GMT
How can Man City even get away with this, Everton if they are punished fairly then Man City are going get destroyed. It’s not even like they can hide it, they kid who hacked Man City emails posted everything online for everyone to see how can they hide this. There’s emails with clear evidence of corruption from the Saudi royal family, surely Man City must be removed from the league like a rangers type punishment. Add Liverpool,Man U,West Sham and Arsenal and we could end up being a top six team 😃 |
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 18, 2023 17:41:43 GMT
[blikr I said, has always been more wealthier clubs and will never change. Restricting clubs to spending has if anything restricted teams like us and the wealthier clubs with the income have been able to use the loophole of say 7 year contracts to spend still. Hasn't solved anything It's only Chelsea who used the 7 year loophole and that's been closed. The problem was resolved by adding to the FFP rules, not scrapping them. No system of rules is going to completely get rid of cheating, cheats will try something else. You can't eradicate cheating bit you can reduce the frequency and impact. Arguing that FFP is a waste of time because you still get cheats is the same as arguing flood defences are a waste of time because you still get floods. Not at all If you agree with Saudi money etc or not there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to spend their own money, like I said before, the way it is, some teams are wealthier than others and FFP hasn't changed anything apart from stop a team like us from doing what say Blackburn once did, not that it would happen of course.. Why should say Stoke be unable to spend their own wealth because we don't have the income of bugger clubs ? |
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Post by Pugsley on Nov 18, 2023 18:21:34 GMT
Man City obviously put enough money in the right pockets. Everton are a massive club. |
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Nov 18, 2023 18:34:51 GMT
FFP is an absolute joke. I’m not entirely sure how it protects anyone, just encourages ever novel ways of getting around it.
Put in place an escrow bond scheme or share top up program whereby the owner has to make a bond or investment in ordinary shares to the value of the annual loss.
Should he get bored or broke at least the Club isn’t in the complete shit
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Post by telfordstokie on Nov 18, 2023 18:35:43 GMT
Everton screwed up and it’s fair they got punished, otherwise it’s a green light for everyone to ignore the rules. Let’s see how the Man City case plays out, I actually think Premier League will throw the book at them if they are found guilty - if they were just going to kill it off quietly they wouldn’t have brought 100-plus charges against them.
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Post by werrington on Nov 18, 2023 18:42:19 GMT
FFP is an absolute joke. I’m not entirely sure how it protects anyone, just encourages ever novel ways of getting around it. Put in place an escrow bond scheme or share top up program whereby the owner has to make a bond or investment in ordinary shares to the value of the annual loss. Should he get bored or broke at least the Club isn’t in the complete shit FFP was set up to stop a Blackburn or Leicester ever happening again and protect the big clubs Until people realise/acknowledge that they will continue to laugh at the likes of us Sadly we still have people wishing English clubs well in Europe |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Nov 18, 2023 18:47:25 GMT
Man City obviously put enough money in the right pockets. Everton are a massive club. A once upon a time big club. Slipping into irrelevance nice and slowly. Would love to see em relegated. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Nov 18, 2023 19:21:19 GMT
It's only Chelsea who used the 7 year loophole and that's been closed. The problem was resolved by adding to the FFP rules, not scrapping them. No system of rules is going to completely get rid of cheating, cheats will try something else. You can't eradicate cheating bit you can reduce the frequency and impact. Arguing that FFP is a waste of time because you still get cheats is the same as arguing flood defences are a waste of time because you still get floods. Not at all If you agree with Saudi money etc or not there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to spend their own money, like I said before, the way it is, some teams are wealthier than others and FFP hasn't changed anything apart from stop a team like us from doing what say Blackburn once did, not that it would happen of course.. Why should say Stoke be unable to spend their own wealth because we don't have the income of bugger clubs ? The wealth of the owners and the wealth of the club are two separate things. Football clubs are run as independent businesses. The have income and they have expenditure. If their expenditure outstrips their income for long enough they go bust. Most owners pump money into their clubs on the form of loans which puts the club in debt and protects the wealth of their owners. While the owners don't call in the debt the club is fine. If the owners pull out for whatever reason the club goes bust and the owners walk away. You cannot expect owners to just keep pouring money into a black hole. Our owners are generous but they are not idiots and anyway there is no way Denise is going to funnel all of Bet365s profits into SCFC even if her dad is. Blackburn are an excellent example of the sugar daddy owner - Jack Walkers money eventually ran out and they nearly ended up in administration. Unless clubs manage their debts and stay within their means they will go bust. The reason the likes of Man City can spend more than us is because they have way more income and can therefore carry a higher level of debt. If their owners have gamed the system to provide them with more money they have cheated the other clubs in the league and they will be rightly expected to get their cumuppannce. The idea that FFP is there to stop the likes of Stoke from competing with the likes of Man City is horseshit. FFP is there to protect the clubs (and their fans) from unscrupulous, incompetent and reckless owners by forcing them to adopt a sustainable business model and prevent them going bust. Without it half the teams in the professional leagues would have banished by now. |
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Post by clarkeda on Nov 18, 2023 20:13:34 GMT
Couldn’t have happened on a better year. Lucky fuckers
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Post by ChesterStokie on Nov 18, 2023 20:22:40 GMT
It's only Chelsea who used the 7 year loophole and that's been closed. The problem was resolved by adding to the FFP rules, not scrapping them. No system of rules is going to completely get rid of cheating, cheats will try something else. You can't eradicate cheating bit you can reduce the frequency and impact. Arguing that FFP is a waste of time because you still get cheats is the same as arguing flood defences are a waste of time because you still get floods. Not at all If you agree with Saudi money etc or not there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to spend their own money, like I said before, the way it is, some teams are wealthier than others and FFP hasn't changed anything apart from stop a team like us from doing what say Blackburn once did, not that it would happen of course.. Why should say Stoke be unable to spend their own wealth because we don't have the income of bugger clubs ? No, the Saudis should NOT be able to spend their own money subsidising an unrelated business in another country and distorting the integrity of the sporting competition. Stoke City haven’t got any ‘wealth’ of their own. They have massive accumulated losses. Any so-called ‘wealth’ has been gifted to them by an unrelated business. |
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Post by logdog on Nov 18, 2023 20:25:36 GMT
Football is just the same as everyday life. If you’ve got enough money, you can buy the best legal teams in the world. If you’ve got the best people fighting your corner, you can get away with a lot. The Saudi’s at Man City rub shoulders with some of the most powerful & influential people in the world. They ain’t being made an example of anytime soon.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 18, 2023 20:25:52 GMT
Not at all If you agree with Saudi money etc or not there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to spend their own money, like I said before, the way it is, some teams are wealthier than others and FFP hasn't changed anything apart from stop a team like us from doing what say Blackburn once did, not that it would happen of course.. Why should say Stoke be unable to spend their own wealth because we don't have the income of bugger clubs ? No, the Saudis should NOT be able to spend their own money subsidising an unrelated business in another country and distorting the integrity of the sporting competition. Stoke City haven’t got any ‘wealth’ aid their own. They have massive accumulated losses. Any so-called ‘wealth’ has been gifted to them by an unrelated business. So people shouldn't be allowed to buy into foreign business and invest their own money? Why should a football club be any different? |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Nov 18, 2023 20:43:49 GMT
No, the Saudis should NOT be able to spend their own money subsidising an unrelated business in another country and distorting the integrity of the sporting competition. Stoke City haven’t got any ‘wealth’ aid their own. They have massive accumulated losses. Any so-called ‘wealth’ has been gifted to them by an unrelated business. So people shouldn't be allowed to buy into foreign business and invest their own money? Why should a football club be any different? When people "invest" in a business they do it to get a return. The business use the money invested to improve the business and make more profit and then pay back the money that was invested with interest. That is how a viable businesses work. The majority of football clubs don'take a profit - owners keep pumping money in to keep them afloat. Foreign investors are doing this for reasons other than making money - in the case of the Saudis and the Qataris to whitewash their regimes to make them look respectable (sport washing). Our owners do it because they love the club. The "investment" made in football clubs isn't done on sound economic grounds. If the "investors" pull the plug the club's go under because of the massive debt their owners have loaded on them to keep them afloat. No sane "investor" would invest in a football club - it's a money pit. Those people advocating the scrapping of FFP haven't a clue as to the consequences. All they see is the Coates family chucking a massive cheque the way of SCFC. It really isn't that simple |
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Post by ChesterStokie on Nov 18, 2023 20:51:21 GMT
No, the Saudis should NOT be able to spend their own money subsidising an unrelated business in another country and distorting the integrity of the sporting competition. Stoke City haven’t got any ‘wealth’ aid their own. They have massive accumulated losses. Any so-called ‘wealth’ has been gifted to them by an unrelated business. So people shouldn't be allowed to buy into foreign business and invest their own money? Why should a football club be any different? I didn’t say they shouldn’t be able to invest (capital) in a foreign business, I said they shouldn’t be able to subsidise (cover losses) them, in particular those that result in FFP breaches. And football clubs are different from other businesses for a whole variety of well-documented reasons. |
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 18, 2023 20:51:38 GMT
Man City obviously put enough money in the right pockets. Everton are a massive club. One of the biggest in the country. All the talk re Man City doesn't deflect away from the fact that they broke the rules Man City are under a separate, independent investigation and their time will come or not. Everton were guilty and those prattling on about foreign money etc doesn't change that |
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Post by metalhead on Nov 18, 2023 23:46:25 GMT
Until such time as they default on monies owed to creditors, FFP penalties are ridiculous. They've received a bigger points deduction for trying to compete, paying their bills yet generally being rubbish, than they would if the owner had spunked away money he didn't have, left a trail of destruction among creditors and basically actively tried to destroy the club. FFP was brought in under the pretence of protecting sporting integrity when the reality was it was simply to ensure that the big clubs had the sporting world to themselves. They punishment is ludicrous. Couldn't agree more. FFP has only ever been about protecting a number of elite clubs. |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 19, 2023 9:23:54 GMT
Football is just the same as everyday life. If you’ve got enough money, you can buy the best legal teams in the world. If you’ve got the best people fighting your corner, you can get away with a lot. The Saudi’s at Man City rub shoulders with some of the most powerful & influential people in the world. They ain’t being made an example of anytime soon. Except in everyday life businesses and companies do not have £170m handed to them for doing nothing. That was man city for winning the PL last season. Even poor old relegated Southampton, Leicester & Leeds scooped around £130m each for failure……and It increases with every new broadcasting contract signed by PL. just imagine running a successful little engineering company and every year you recieved a £100m check for doing nothing. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Nov 19, 2023 14:11:28 GMT
Until such time as they default on monies owed to creditors, FFP penalties are ridiculous. They've received a bigger points deduction for trying to compete, paying their bills yet generally being rubbish, than they would if the owner had spunked away money he didn't have, left a trail of destruction among creditors and basically actively tried to destroy the club. FFP was brought in under the pretence of protecting sporting integrity when the reality was it was simply to ensure that the big clubs had the sporting world to themselves. They punishment is ludicrous. Couldn't agree more. FFP has only ever been about protecting a number of elite clubs. That's completely wrong - the club's at the front of the queue to get rid of FFP are the big clubs. Scrap FFP and they get to keep even more of the TV money and they will simply outspend everyone else and drive clubs into administration. It's completely naive to expect football becoming a more level playing field by scrapping FFP - it will result in the exact opposite. The smaller clubs will just drive themselves into unsustainable debt to try and compete with the big boys who will just chuck more money in and piss themselves laughing as their increasingly desperate wannabe rivals drive themselves out of existence. FFP is basically a crash barrier to stop this happening - clubs get forewarned before they behave recklessly and go bust. Remove the crash barrier and they just crash. Our fans don't won't to accept this because they see Peter Coates as a soft headed sugar daddy who will just carry on pouring money into the club and save it from debt while slugging it out with the big boys. Thing is it won't happen. Peter Coates isn't stupid - he won't just keep chucking money at a race he can't win, he won't load the club with unsustainable debt and the real money isn't his anyway. Denise isn't going get Bet365 to play financial Russian Roulette with the Saudi and Qatari governments. No-one on here has provided an alternative to what I've described above because there isn't one. Scrapping FFP is just an empty mantra that no-one chanting it has thought through. |
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