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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 11, 2023 7:08:10 GMT
It's very simplistic to say that nationalisation has failed and only privatisation can work. As has been demonstrated clearly over the last few decades, the reality is in the middle and that's because, ultimately, the success or failure of an organisation depends on its staff, its leadership and its resourcing.
But that misses the point somewhat. The point, surely, is this - that some sectors are so fundamental to the welfare of people and society as a whole that to place them in private hands is dangerous and wrong. Water and energy are the obvious examples. Telecomms and transport are arguable.
There is no reason why a country like the UK can't support a mixed economy. It did so for decades with mixed results, which underlines what I said about it being the people, leadership and resources that matter, not the ownership model. Many northern European countries operate on just such a mixed approach. They seem to do better as a country overall and have happier people...
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 11, 2023 7:44:51 GMT
It's very simplistic to say that nationalisation has failed and only privatisation can work. As has been demonstrated clearly over the last few decades, the reality is in the middle and that's because, ultimately, the success or failure of an organisation depends on its staff, its leadership and its resourcing. But that misses the point somewhat. The point, surely, is this - that some sectors are so fundamental to the welfare of people and society as a whole that to place them in private hands is dangerous and wrong. Water and energy are the obvious examples. Telecomms and transport are arguable. There is no reason why a country like the UK can't support a mixed economy. It did so for decades with mixed results, which underlines what I said about it being the people, leadership and resources that matter, not the ownership model. Many northern European countries operate on just such a mixed approach. They seem to do better as a country overall and have happier people... True. And if our so called leaders were more grown up they'd knock on each others doors and have this exact conversation and agree to take some things out of the political arena for the benefit of the people they claim to represent. But they don't because almost all of them only care about division and power so they can wield their influence for their own personal benefit. Its sick. Look at the NHS. Both parties do a shit job of running it yet they bitch and whine at one another quoting various stats saying we'll do this and they're wrong blah blah. Fact is money gets chucked endlessly at it and it still never seems to get better. So why not get in a room together and be honest and come up with a joint plan that we can all back. It could be done but politics gets in the way and as a result we all suffer. But the politicians have private health care probably so don't really give a shit. Politics.....
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 11, 2023 8:51:50 GMT
The railways were nationalised because they were worn out after the war, but had been struggling before that. They were always going to lose traffic to roads. I'm not going to pretend BR was wonderful , at times it was shocking, but from the mid-'80's was far more business-led. The subsequent Tory privatisation was disastrous and has cost the taxpayer far more than BR . Now the railways are already at least semi-nationalised with Network Rail, and multiple failed franchises being run by the state such that the 'Operator of Last Resort' is the biggest operator of passenger trains in the UK. People should compare the success and innovation of state-run LNER with the shambles of private sector Avanti West Coast before dismissing nationalisation. "from the mid-'80's was far more business-led."
By "business-led" do you mean lots more subsidy from tax payers?:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financing_of_the_rail_industry_in_Great_Britain
Where does all that subsidy go? Is it to improve service or somewhere else? :- www.euronews.com/travel/2022/12/23/train-strikes-these-are-the-countries-that-pay-train-drivers-the-most-and-the-least-in-eur#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20estimated%20average,%2C%20Luxembourg%2C%20Germany%20and%20France. Well it certainly isn't to improve services. Because of circumstances LNER was always the "easiest" rail company to operate, with less hills, less mix of traffic, less population density/ built up areas, longer journeys, longer/faster straight tracks etc. The east coast mainline has always been a money spinner. If the railways were fully nationalised it would be simply another black-hole into which even more tax payers money would be poured, as was always the case with nationalised industries. If energy industries were nationalised it would simply become a political tool with governments making short term manipulations for short term benefits at the expense of future generations. EDF's UK arm returned to profit in 2022: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64647854French government owned EDF debt now tops 64 billion Euros and growing: www.statista.com/statistics/1342612/debt-of-edf-group/#:~:text=The%20net%20indebtedness%20of%20the,64.5%20billion%20euros%20in%202022. They may want to blame the war in Ukraine for the latest debt increase and French government policy to freeze prices, but the debt has been there for years and will increase with the future refurbishment and replacement of old nuclear power stations. Macron curtailed energy price increases in December 2021, months before the war in Ukraine because of post pandemic inflation and he needed to win an election for the Presidency. www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/02/17/france-s-edf-posts-record-annual-loss-debt-swells_6016197_7.htmlAs this next article explains, once an industry is nationalised it ceases to be a commercial operation and becomes a political tool for politicians to "buy" votes: www.france24.com/en/france/20230105-how-france-s-prized-nuclear-sector-stalled-in-europe-s-hour-of-need"Socialist François Hollande cut a deal with the Greens in exchange for their support: he vowed to shut the two reactors at Fessenheim, France’s oldest nuclear plant, and cut to 50 percent the proportion of French energy nuclear generates by 2025." So he stitched up the Greens didn't he? He had no intention. The idea of nationalising industry may buy some people's support on this MB, but it certainly does not buy mine because I know it would be disastrous.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 11, 2023 9:48:38 GMT
It's very simplistic to say that nationalisation has failed and only privatisation can work. As has been demonstrated clearly over the last few decades, the reality is in the middle and that's because, ultimately, the success or failure of an organisation depends on its staff, its leadership and its resourcing. But that misses the point somewhat. The point, surely, is this - that some sectors are so fundamental to the welfare of people and society as a whole that to place them in private hands is dangerous and wrong. Water and energy are the obvious examples. Telecomms and transport are arguable. There is no reason why a country like the UK can't support a mixed economy. It did so for decades with mixed results, which underlines what I said about it being the people, leadership and resources that matter, not the ownership model. Many northern European countries operate on just such a mixed approach. They seem to do better as a country overall and have happier people... True. And if our so called leaders were more grown up they'd knock on each others doors and have this exact conversation and agree to take some things out of the political arena for the benefit of the people they claim to represent. But they don't because almost all of them only care about division and power so they can wield their influence for their own personal benefit. Its sick. Look at the NHS. Both parties do a shit job of running it yet they bitch and whine at one another quoting various stats saying we'll do this and they're wrong blah blah. Fact is money gets chucked endlessly at it and it still never seems to get better. So why not get in a room together and be honest and come up with a joint plan that we can all back. It could be done but politics gets in the way and as a result we all suffer. But the politicians have private health care probably so don't really give a shit. Politics..... Agree with that in part. You gave the example of the NHS. The facts are that it did improve under the last Labour govt, which underlines my point about people, leadership and, fundamentally in this case, resources being the critical aspects, not necessarily the ownership model. But yes, it'd be lovely to have adult politicians working collectively for the good of the nation and its people. PR would help in that regard imo. It would be a requirement of all governments to compromise to deliver outcomes which satisfy most people's wishes instead of the opposite at the moment.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 11, 2023 10:09:55 GMT
The railways were nationalised because they were worn out after the war, but had been struggling before that. They were always going to lose traffic to roads. I'm not going to pretend BR was wonderful , at times it was shocking, but from the mid-'80's was far more business-led. The subsequent Tory privatisation was disastrous and has cost the taxpayer far more than BR . Now the railways are already at least semi-nationalised with Network Rail, and multiple failed franchises being run by the state such that the 'Operator of Last Resort' is the biggest operator of passenger trains in the UK. People should compare the success and innovation of state-run LNER with the shambles of private sector Avanti West Coast before dismissing nationalisation. "from the mid-'80's was far more business-led."
By "business-led" do you mean lots more subsidy from tax payers?:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financing_of_the_rail_industry_in_Great_Britain
Where does all that subsidy go? Is it to improve service or somewhere else? :- www.euronews.com/travel/2022/12/23/train-strikes-these-are-the-countries-that-pay-train-drivers-the-most-and-the-least-in-eur#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20estimated%20average,%2C%20Luxembourg%2C%20Germany%20and%20France. Well it certainly isn't to improve services. Because of circumstances LNER was always the "easiest" rail company to operate, with less hills, less mix of traffic, less population density/ built up areas, longer journeys, longer/faster straight tracks etc. The east coast mainline has always been a money spinner. If the railways were fully nationalised it would be simply another black-hole into which even more tax payers money would be poured, as was always the case with nationalised industries. If energy industries were nationalised it would simply become a political tool with governments making short term manipulations for short term benefits at the expense of future generations. EDF's UK arm returned to profit in 2022: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64647854French government owned EDF debt now tops 64 billion Euros and growing: www.statista.com/statistics/1342612/debt-of-edf-group/#:~:text=The%20net%20indebtedness%20of%20the,64.5%20billion%20euros%20in%202022. They may want to blame the war in Ukraine for the latest debt increase and French government policy to freeze prices, but the debt has been there for years and will increase with the future refurbishment and replacement of old nuclear power stations. Macron curtailed energy price increases in December 2021, months before the war in Ukraine because of post pandemic inflation and he needed to win an election for the Presidency. www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/02/17/france-s-edf-posts-record-annual-loss-debt-swells_6016197_7.htmlAs this next article explains, once an industry is nationalised it ceases to be a commercial operation and becomes a political tool for politicians to "buy" votes: www.france24.com/en/france/20230105-how-france-s-prized-nuclear-sector-stalled-in-europe-s-hour-of-need"Socialist François Hollande cut a deal with the Greens in exchange for their support: he vowed to shut the two reactors at Fessenheim, France’s oldest nuclear plant, and cut to 50 percent the proportion of French energy nuclear generates by 2025." So he stitched up the Greens didn't he? He had no intention. The idea of nationalising industry may buy some people's support on this MB, but it certainly does not buy mine because I know it would be disastrous. You do realise all the Private Railway operating companies receive generous subsidies from the tax payer? Bring them back into public control, regional would be good like Andy Burnham has just done in Greater Manchester.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 11, 2023 10:35:11 GMT
"from the mid-'80's was far more business-led."
By "business-led" do you mean lots more subsidy from tax payers?:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financing_of_the_rail_industry_in_Great_Britain
Where does all that subsidy go? Is it to improve service or somewhere else? :- www.euronews.com/travel/2022/12/23/train-strikes-these-are-the-countries-that-pay-train-drivers-the-most-and-the-least-in-eur#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20estimated%20average,%2C%20Luxembourg%2C%20Germany%20and%20France. Well it certainly isn't to improve services. Because of circumstances LNER was always the "easiest" rail company to operate, with less hills, less mix of traffic, less population density/ built up areas, longer journeys, longer/faster straight tracks etc. The east coast mainline has always been a money spinner. If the railways were fully nationalised it would be simply another black-hole into which even more tax payers money would be poured, as was always the case with nationalised industries. If energy industries were nationalised it would simply become a political tool with governments making short term manipulations for short term benefits at the expense of future generations. EDF's UK arm returned to profit in 2022: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64647854French government owned EDF debt now tops 64 billion Euros and growing: www.statista.com/statistics/1342612/debt-of-edf-group/#:~:text=The%20net%20indebtedness%20of%20the,64.5%20billion%20euros%20in%202022. They may want to blame the war in Ukraine for the latest debt increase and French government policy to freeze prices, but the debt has been there for years and will increase with the future refurbishment and replacement of old nuclear power stations. Macron curtailed energy price increases in December 2021, months before the war in Ukraine because of post pandemic inflation and he needed to win an election for the Presidency. www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/02/17/france-s-edf-posts-record-annual-loss-debt-swells_6016197_7.htmlAs this next article explains, once an industry is nationalised it ceases to be a commercial operation and becomes a political tool for politicians to "buy" votes: www.france24.com/en/france/20230105-how-france-s-prized-nuclear-sector-stalled-in-europe-s-hour-of-need"Socialist François Hollande cut a deal with the Greens in exchange for their support: he vowed to shut the two reactors at Fessenheim, France’s oldest nuclear plant, and cut to 50 percent the proportion of French energy nuclear generates by 2025." So he stitched up the Greens didn't he? He had no intention. The idea of nationalising industry may buy some people's support on this MB, but it certainly does not buy mine because I know it would be disastrous. You do realise all the Private Railway operating companies receive generous subsidies from the tax payer? Bring them back into public control, regional would be good like Andy Burnham has just done in Greater Manchester. Yes I do - see my wiki link in my post, which you clearly have not read properly. I was a member of a North East Quality business group when I managed a works in Tony Blair's constituency and used to go to Tony's house. I remember well a presentation by LNER on how well they managed their business and were the best rail company at satisfying customer needs. They told us how much they had successfully reduced their subsidy from the government. The works I managed didn't get any subsidy and eventually shut when Teesside steelworks shut thanks to Anna Soubry. As I explained in my post LNER has many "structural" advantages over other rail companies. Tony Blair had the good sense to avoid nationalisation as I hope Starmer will.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 11, 2023 10:37:53 GMT
You do realise all the Private Railway operating companies receive generous subsidies from the tax payer? Bring them back into public control, regional would be good like Andy Burnham has just done in Greater Manchester. Yes I do - see my wiki link in my post, which you clearly have not read properly. I was a member of a North East Quality business group when I managed a works in Tony Blair's constituency and used to go to Tony's house. I remember well a presentation by LNER on how well they managed their business and were the best rail company at satisfying customer needs. They told us how much they had successfully reduced their subsidy from the government. The works I managed didn't get any subsidy and eventually shut when Teesside steelworks shut thanks to Anna Subery. As I explained in my post LNER has many "structural" advantages over other rail companies. Tony Blair had the good sense to avoid nationalisation as I hope Starmer will. I don't read your posts in full as they are generally incredibly long winded, apologies for missing it. Still have to disagree, public transport should be in public hands, along the lines of the Manchester and soon to be Merseyside models.
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Post by cvillestokie on Oct 11, 2023 10:38:39 GMT
Are you in support of that policy? And yes, if proven guilty, fraud is fraud. If it costs the same as the money recouped but stops these individuals from being able to do it again so easily, wouldn’t that be a good thing? No, the police should be going to every robbery no matter how trivial it seems to some , it maybe major to others. I agree with you. Then shouldn’t the same apply for defrauding the public?
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Post by knype on Oct 11, 2023 10:58:52 GMT
No, the police should be going to every robbery no matter how trivial it seems to some , it maybe major to others. I agree with you. Then shouldn’t the same apply for defrauding the public? Yes of course, does that include claims on expenses too ??
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Post by gawa on Oct 11, 2023 11:54:35 GMT
You do realise all the Private Railway operating companies receive generous subsidies from the tax payer? Bring them back into public control, regional would be good like Andy Burnham has just done in Greater Manchester. Yes I do - see my wiki link in my post, which you clearly have not read properly. I was a member of a North East Quality business group when I managed a works in Tony Blair's constituency and used to go to Tony's house. I remember well a presentation by LNER on how well they managed their business and were the best rail company at satisfying customer needs. They told us how much they had successfully reduced their subsidy from the government. The works I managed didn't get any subsidy and eventually shut when Teesside steelworks shut thanks to Anna Soubry. As I explained in my post LNER has many "structural" advantages over other rail companies. Tony Blair had the good sense to avoid nationalisation as I hope Starmer will. Did you work at TATA steel in Redcar Mr Coke?
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 11, 2023 11:57:30 GMT
The railways were nationalised because they were worn out after the war, but had been struggling before that. They were always going to lose traffic to roads. I'm not going to pretend BR was wonderful , at times it was shocking, but from the mid-'80's was far more business-led. The subsequent Tory privatisation was disastrous and has cost the taxpayer far more than BR . Now the railways are already at least semi-nationalised with Network Rail, and multiple failed franchises being run by the state such that the 'Operator of Last Resort' is the biggest operator of passenger trains in the UK. People should compare the success and innovation of state-run LNER with the shambles of private sector Avanti West Coast before dismissing nationalisation. "from the mid-'80's was far more business-led."
By "business-led" do you mean lots more subsidy from tax payers?:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financing_of_the_rail_industry_in_Great_Britain
Where does all that subsidy go? Is it to improve service or somewhere else? :- www.euronews.com/travel/2022/12/23/train-strikes-these-are-the-countries-that-pay-train-drivers-the-most-and-the-least-in-eur#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20estimated%20average,%2C%20Luxembourg%2C%20Germany%20and%20France. Well it certainly isn't to improve services. Because of circumstances LNER was always the "easiest" rail company to operate, with less hills, less mix of traffic, less population density/ built up areas, longer journeys, longer/faster straight tracks etc. The east coast mainline has always been a money spinner. If the railways were fully nationalised it would be simply another black-hole into which even more tax payers money would be poured, as was always the case with nationalised industries. If energy industries were nationalised it would simply become a political tool with governments making short term manipulations for short term benefits at the expense of future generations. EDF's UK arm returned to profit in 2022: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64647854French government owned EDF debt now tops 64 billion Euros and growing: www.statista.com/statistics/1342612/debt-of-edf-group/#:~:text=The%20net%20indebtedness%20of%20the,64.5%20billion%20euros%20in%202022. They may want to blame the war in Ukraine for the latest debt increase and French government policy to freeze prices, but the debt has been there for years and will increase with the future refurbishment and replacement of old nuclear power stations. Macron curtailed energy price increases in December 2021, months before the war in Ukraine because of post pandemic inflation and he needed to win an election for the Presidency. www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/02/17/france-s-edf-posts-record-annual-loss-debt-swells_6016197_7.htmlAs this next article explains, once an industry is nationalised it ceases to be a commercial operation and becomes a political tool for politicians to "buy" votes: www.france24.com/en/france/20230105-how-france-s-prized-nuclear-sector-stalled-in-europe-s-hour-of-need"Socialist François Hollande cut a deal with the Greens in exchange for their support: he vowed to shut the two reactors at Fessenheim, France’s oldest nuclear plant, and cut to 50 percent the proportion of French energy nuclear generates by 2025." So he stitched up the Greens didn't he? He had no intention. The idea of nationalising industry may buy some people's support on this MB, but it certainly does not buy mine because I know it would be disastrous. By business-led I mean sectorisation etc. See what Chris Green did in Scotland and Network South East.....how Inter-City became profitable. The East Coast has had multiple failed private franchises, but the current incarnation under state control is showing the sort of innovation the private sector failed to. LNER, Trans-Pennine, Northern, South-Eastern Trains, Scotrail,Transport for Wales Rail and Scottish sleeper services are all now under state operation. Plus of course Network Rail. The cost of the railways to the taxpayer increased following privatisation.
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Post by gawa on Oct 11, 2023 11:57:57 GMT
I agree with you. Then shouldn’t the same apply for defrauding the public? Yes of course, does that include claims on expenses too ?? 100% mate. Yvette Cooper knows all about playing the expenses system. As do many tories too of course. But for the sake of balance I thought I'd call out a Labour MP this time.
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Post by Veritas on Oct 11, 2023 12:00:58 GMT
Yes of course, does that include claims on expenses too ?? 100% mate. Yvette Cooper knows all about playing the expenses system. As do many tories too of course. But for the sake of balance I thought I'd call out a Labour MP this time. You and balance 🤣🤣🤣
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Post by GrahamHyde on Oct 11, 2023 12:02:24 GMT
Labour just have to win this election.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 11, 2023 12:55:45 GMT
Yes I do - see my wiki link in my post, which you clearly have not read properly. I was a member of a North East Quality business group when I managed a works in Tony Blair's constituency and used to go to Tony's house. I remember well a presentation by LNER on how well they managed their business and were the best rail company at satisfying customer needs. They told us how much they had successfully reduced their subsidy from the government. The works I managed didn't get any subsidy and eventually shut when Teesside steelworks shut thanks to Anna Soubry. As I explained in my post LNER has many "structural" advantages over other rail companies. Tony Blair had the good sense to avoid nationalisation as I hope Starmer will. Did you work at TATA steel in Redcar Mr Coke? I worked at Llanwern, Redcar, Port Talbot, Grangetown for British Steel, Corus, and Tata in the steel industry. I've also worked for Tunnel Cement, Redland, Lafarge, and Steetley.
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Post by gawa on Oct 11, 2023 13:11:39 GMT
Did you work at TATA steel in Redcar Mr Coke? I worked at Llanwern, Redcar, Port Talbot, Grangetown for British Steel, Corus, and Tata in the steel industry. I've also worked for Tunnel Cement, Redland, Lafarge, and Steetley. Do you know of Paul Rayson by any chance?
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Post by OldStokie on Oct 11, 2023 13:22:55 GMT
I think it's been a brilliant conference for a party that wants to see the back of the current lot... very few policies with little meat on the bones is exactly right to win it. Plus their plans for Scotland should see the back of most of the SNP in Scotland. Given the boundary changes made by the Tories, Labour will have to win big to oust this lot. They should do it.
OS.
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Post by phileetin on Oct 11, 2023 13:28:48 GMT
I think it's been a brilliant conference for a party that wants to see the back of the current lot... very few policies with little meat on the bones is exactly right to win it. Plus their plans for Scotland should see the back of most of the SNP in Scotland. Given the boundary changes made by the Tories, Labour will have to win big to oust this lot. They should do it. OS. i agree .
i can't be the only one , surely , who thinks that he's got the charisma of a cardboard box ?
i thought that his rousing speach that was receiving rapturous applause whilst he was still speaking was so so so flat .... no emotion , no oomph , worse than gordon brown.
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Post by elystokie on Oct 11, 2023 14:28:25 GMT
I think it's been a brilliant conference for a party that wants to see the back of the current lot... very few policies with little meat on the bones is exactly right to win it. Plus their plans for Scotland should see the back of most of the SNP in Scotland. Given the boundary changes made by the Tories, Labour will have to win big to oust this lot. They should do it. OS. i agree . i can't be the only one , surely , who thinks that he's got the charisma of a cardboard box ? i thought that his rousing speach that was receiving rapturous applause whilst he was still speaking was so so so flat .... no emotion , no oomph , worse than gordon brown.
Yeh, bring back the Liar King, he talks absolute word salad and you can't believe a word but he does it in an 'entertaining' manner so it doesn't matter if he fucks it up again.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 11, 2023 14:29:20 GMT
I worked at Llanwern, Redcar, Port Talbot, Grangetown for British Steel, Corus, and Tata in the steel industry. I've also worked for Tunnel Cement, Redland, Lafarge, and Steetley. Do you know of Paul Rayson by any chance? No. I think I would remember that unusual name. Regarding the last 2 posts, it seems that internet/social media has destroyed the art of political oratory during the last couple of decades. Blair and Cameron were quite "refined" speakers but didn't get the pulse racing. Foot, Kinnock, and Thatcher could turn a phase but didn't really inspire unless you were a big fan. The last person I recall who could raise the rafters was Heseltine. I didn't agree with his politics but could see how his oratory skill could lift an audience and he often "stole" a Tory conference. Have I missed anyone?
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Post by phileetin on Oct 11, 2023 15:15:45 GMT
william hague and liz truss were useless speakers, blair changed his approach and kept breaking up his sentences which i found annoying. callaghan and wilson were ok i didnt think maggie was that bad , she had a way of slapping someone down.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Oct 11, 2023 15:31:14 GMT
I think it's been a brilliant conference for a party that wants to see the back of the current lot... very few policies with little meat on the bones is exactly right to win it. Plus their plans for Scotland should see the back of most of the SNP in Scotland. Given the boundary changes made by the Tories, Labour will have to win big to oust this lot. They should do it. OS. i agree . i can't be the only one , surely , who thinks that he's got the charisma of a cardboard box ? i thought that his rousing speach that was receiving rapturous applause whilst he was still speaking was so so so flat .... no emotion , no oomph , worse than gordon brown.
He doesn't have that much charisma - I think it's hard to argue against that - but some of the best bosses I've worked for have been quiet, fairly non-descript people. Equally, some of the most seemingly-charismatic people I've known have become very boring very quickly. If I was hiring a clown or a lead singer for a band I might be bothered about charisma, for a Prime Minister I really don't give a shit - although I can see it has a role in getting people to vote for you.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 11, 2023 15:36:46 GMT
Now starmer’s actually committed himself to something It will be interesting how his vow to ride roughshod over local planing will go down in the Home Counties
Of course it’s not certain a negative focus group or two and by Friday he’ll be campaigning to protect the green belt and stop excessive home building
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 11, 2023 16:25:34 GMT
i agree . i can't be the only one , surely , who thinks that he's got the charisma of a cardboard box ? i thought that his rousing speach that was receiving rapturous applause whilst he was still speaking was so so so flat .... no emotion , no oomph , worse than gordon brown.
He doesn't have that much charisma - I think it's hard to argue against that - but some of the best bosses I've worked for have been quiet, fairly non-descript people. Equally, some of the most seemingly-charismatic people I've known have become very boring very quickly. If I was hiring a clown or a lead singer for a band I might be bothered about charisma, for a Prime Minister I really don't give a shit - although I can see it has a role in getting people to vote for you. Absolutely. I want a flawless public administrator. Not an ego. Ask civil servants. They will tell you of recent leaders, Brown and May were the best to work for because they were serious and focused on detail. The worst was Johnson, then Blair and Cameron.
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Post by Waggy on Oct 11, 2023 17:43:21 GMT
Spot on. Fed bullshit, since convid, democracy or lack of has opened my eyes Covid most certainly opened my eyes. And I'm yet to get a sensible answer as to why Susan Minchie a fully paid up member of the British communist party was one of the chief advisors with SAGE to the government. Just can't bend my head around that one. Yet it never really got onto anyone's radar. Weird. Lovely real life chance for a commie to test out population control. Bonkers WEF will ruin us.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 11, 2023 17:48:11 GMT
Covid most certainly opened my eyes. And I'm yet to get a sensible answer as to why Susan Minchie a fully paid up member of the British communist party was one of the chief advisors with SAGE to the government. Just can't bend my head around that one. Yet it never really got onto anyone's radar. Weird. Lovely real life chance for a commie to test out population control. Bonkers WEF will ruin us. They already are. Their disciples are scattered around govts across the globe. We're already about to hand over pandemic guidance to WHO yet nobody seems to give a flying one. Unelected people deciding all our futures. Definitely concerning.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 11, 2023 17:53:29 GMT
i agree . i can't be the only one , surely , who thinks that he's got the charisma of a cardboard box ? i thought that his rousing speach that was receiving rapturous applause whilst he was still speaking was so so so flat .... no emotion , no oomph , worse than gordon brown.
He doesn't have that much charisma - I think it's hard to argue against that - but some of the best bosses I've worked for have been quiet, fairly non-descript people. Equally, some of the most seemingly-charismatic people I've known have become very boring very quickly. If I was hiring a clown or a lead singer for a band I might be bothered about charisma, for a Prime Minister I really don't give a shit - although I can see it has a role in getting people to vote for you. Precisely. You can see why fools like Johnson get so far in public life with such little apparent ability beyond the "charisma" to appeal to people who appear to place such high importance on that attribute above any kind of competence or talent. If the worst thing you can think of to criticise any politician is that they're a bit dull, then Christ, we're in a much healthier political space than we have been for many years, on both this side of the pond and the other. Give me dull, competent government free from populist vote-chasing headline-grabbing bollocks any day of the week, regardless of which party is in power.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Oct 12, 2023 13:36:25 GMT
I agree with the charisma comment - let's get Wagner from X-Factor running the country.
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Post by werrington on Oct 14, 2023 17:12:21 GMT
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