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Post by mrnovember on Sept 6, 2023 8:00:10 GMT
Just looked up the 11 they put out in the QF and it does look rather intimidating. I still think we would have given them a game though, only 2 years on from the trouncing. Would've been a proper ding dong of a game definitely. We really should've won our group, that would've given us a slightly easier side of the draw, though obviously Croatia had a very strong team as well. Think we were complacent going into the Romania game. Underwhelming in the group stages is an all too familiar story isn't it? Although I do feel like our group stage performances have improved marginally under Southgate, we still seem to make life harder than it should be. Scotland, USA in recent memory as examples. Not that we have a devine right to beat these teams but you get my point.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 6, 2023 9:05:48 GMT
If Gerrard had moved overseas at 23 years old he'd have become a global all time great. As skilful and talented as he undoubtedly was, at times, insisting on covering every blade of grass and being in the middle of everything is actually a form of indiscipline. His overbearing presence also seemed to intimidate some younger Liverpool players.He was a fantastic player but channelling all that energy more productively would've made him even better. The current England players, especially the young uns coming through are the best England have had in donkeys years. Bellingham can become the best player in the world. Saka is developing an irresistible ruthless streak and Phil is testament to the brilliance of Guardiola. Harry still has a couple of tournaments left in him too. When it comes to the England team my feet are well and truly firmly on the ground. I've spent 37 years rolling my eyes when mardarses go on about the hand of God.... when in truth we'd hardly got out of our own half and by then should've had at least one red card for the violence inflicted on the diminutive genius. I laughed in the face of those who seemed to think we'd have at least reached the final if Beckham hadn't seen red in 1998. Etc. But the current team is capable of competing for trophies. The monkey to get off our back is winning a knock-out game against a contender for the trophy. And this lot have the ability to beat most and compete with the best. And if we lose to Ukraine on Sunday I expect this post to be brought up and thrown in my face. In fact, I'll do it myself 😁 Good post. France 98 - Where do you have us if Campbell's goal stands and we get through? Beat The Dutch but knocked out in the semis by Brazil? For me the what ifs of that tournament still hurt to this day. We had a good team and a good manager. It would've been close. They had brilliant quality but we were pretty resilient. One thing is though the ref disallowing Campbell goal was correct.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2023 12:12:40 GMT
The defensive midfielder that you have championed for years on here, do you mean that kind of player? I get you weren't his biggest fan, but it takes all sorts of players to make a successful midfield and for 12 years or more, he drove several fairly average (for their standards) Liverpool teams to trophies that they simply wouldn't have won without him. He is one of the all-time greats to Liverpool fans, and considering the success and players they have had over the years, he simply cannot go down as anything other than a brilliant footballer. Not your clogging type of stopper so much as someone who could sit deep and read the game and cover for him as well as ping it about. Hamann, Alonso, even Lucas helped that and without that kind of player Gerrard's weaknesses were exposed - as they often were for England, where he was generally far less influential. He was a terrific, exciting Premier League player and he suited the blood and thunder and pace of that league down to the ground but imo he was some way off the best European and South American midfielders of the time even during his peak years and I don't know entirely if I agree that they wouldn't have won those trophies without him - if anything with the players they had they should've won more than they did. Disagree, he had a good international career, he scored 21 goals in just over 100 games (I think), which for a central midfielder in an underachieving team is really good going. It wasn't his, or his team mates fault that various managers couldn't pick a "team" instead of trying to just shoehorn all the star names into a disfunctioning midfield. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 major trophies they wouldn't have won without him, 2001 EUFA Cup, 2005 Champions League and 2006 FA Cup, and I'm not convinced they should have won more that what they did, they definitely overachieved in the Champions League throughout his time there, and he played a major part in that. The only trophy that they should have won was the Premier League when Brendan Rodgers was manager and they threw it away at the end, but by then Gerrard was well plast his best as a player anyway. I think it's pretty obvious we have different opinions on how good he actually was, but I remain convinced that of his type, he is right up there with the best midfielders this country has ever produced.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 6, 2023 12:22:40 GMT
Not your clogging type of stopper so much as someone who could sit deep and read the game and cover for him as well as ping it about. Hamann, Alonso, even Lucas helped that and without that kind of player Gerrard's weaknesses were exposed - as they often were for England, where he was generally far less influential. He was a terrific, exciting Premier League player and he suited the blood and thunder and pace of that league down to the ground but imo he was some way off the best European and South American midfielders of the time even during his peak years and I don't know entirely if I agree that they wouldn't have won those trophies without him - if anything with the players they had they should've won more than they did. Disagree, he had a good international career, he scored 21 goals in just over 100 games (I think), which for a central midfielder in an underachieving team is really good going. It wasn't his, or his team mates fault that various managers couldn't pick a "team" instead of trying to just shoehorn all the star names into a disfunctioning midfield. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 major trophies they wouldn't have won without him, 2001 EUFA Cup, 2005 Champions League and 2006 FA Cup, and I'm not convinced they should have won more that what they did, they definitely overachieved in the Champions League throughout his time there, and he played a major part in that. The only trophy that they should have won was the Premier League when Brendan Rodgers was manager and they threw it away at the end, but by then Gerrard was well plast his best as a player anyway. I think it's pretty obvious we have different opinions on how good he actually was, but I remain convinced that of his type, he is right up there with the best midfielders this country has ever produced. How many standout games can you recall him having for England or good tournament performances though? Euro 2012 he had a good tournament but I'm struggling to think of many others? I'll give you the FA Cup 2006, he was absolutely magnificent in that game, heroic performance. Champions League 2005 is actually a good illustration of my point. First half he was completely anonymous and Liverpool were all over the place, a total mess. Benitez puts Hamann at half time and it's a completely different second half, Hamann helping to do the orchestrating and building a platform for Gerrard's Roy of the Rovers act. Gerrard was great once he had that brain behind him, again. If Hamann doesn't come on, Liverpool don't get anywhere near winning that game. In terms of throwing it away, Houllier and Benitez both probably should've got closer to mounting title challenges than they did. Rodgers did well to get them contending but bottled it, just like Benitez did after his rant. Houllier bottled a decent shot at the Champions League against Leverkusen in the quarter finals in 2002. Gerrard and Liverpool were outclassed by Milan's awesome midfield in 2007 in the final.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2023 14:49:30 GMT
Disagree, he had a good international career, he scored 21 goals in just over 100 games (I think), which for a central midfielder in an underachieving team is really good going. It wasn't his, or his team mates fault that various managers couldn't pick a "team" instead of trying to just shoehorn all the star names into a disfunctioning midfield. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 major trophies they wouldn't have won without him, 2001 EUFA Cup, 2005 Champions League and 2006 FA Cup, and I'm not convinced they should have won more that what they did, they definitely overachieved in the Champions League throughout his time there, and he played a major part in that. The only trophy that they should have won was the Premier League when Brendan Rodgers was manager and they threw it away at the end, but by then Gerrard was well plast his best as a player anyway. I think it's pretty obvious we have different opinions on how good he actually was, but I remain convinced that of his type, he is right up there with the best midfielders this country has ever produced. How many standout games can you recall him having for England or good tournament performances though? Euro 2012 he had a good tournament but I'm struggling to think of many others? I'll give you the FA Cup 2006, he was absolutely magnificent in that game, heroic performance. Champions League 2005 is actually a good illustration of my point. First half he was completely anonymous and Liverpool were all over the place, a total mess. Benitez puts Hamann at half time and it's a completely different second half, Hamann helping to do the orchestrating and building a platform for Gerrard's Roy of the Rovers act. Gerrard was great once he had that brain behind him, again. If Hamann doesn't come on, Liverpool don't get anywhere near winning that game. In terms of throwing it away, Houllier and Benitez both probably should've got closer to mounting title challenges than they did. Rodgers did well to get them contending but bottled it, just like Benitez did after his rant. Houllier bottled a decent shot at the Champions League against Leverkusen in the quarter finals in 2002. Gerrard and Liverpool were outclassed by Milan's awesome midfield in 2007 in the final. Liverpool wouldn't have been anywhere near that Champions League final in 2005 if it wasn't for Gerrard. You not remember his 88th minute screamer at Anfield to take them through against Olympiakos (I think it was them)? They were out of that tournament if he didn't score.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 6, 2023 15:15:48 GMT
How many standout games can you recall him having for England or good tournament performances though? Euro 2012 he had a good tournament but I'm struggling to think of many others? I'll give you the FA Cup 2006, he was absolutely magnificent in that game, heroic performance. Champions League 2005 is actually a good illustration of my point. First half he was completely anonymous and Liverpool were all over the place, a total mess. Benitez puts Hamann at half time and it's a completely different second half, Hamann helping to do the orchestrating and building a platform for Gerrard's Roy of the Rovers act. Gerrard was great once he had that brain behind him, again. If Hamann doesn't come on, Liverpool don't get anywhere near winning that game. In terms of throwing it away, Houllier and Benitez both probably should've got closer to mounting title challenges than they did. Rodgers did well to get them contending but bottled it, just like Benitez did after his rant. Houllier bottled a decent shot at the Champions League against Leverkusen in the quarter finals in 2002. Gerrard and Liverpool were outclassed by Milan's awesome midfield in 2007 in the final. Liverpool wouldn't have been anywhere near that Champions League final in 2005 if it wasn't for Gerrard. You not remember his 88th minute screamer at Anfield to take them through against Olympiakos (I think it was them)? They were out of that tournament if he didn't score. Great goal for sure. They also don't get near the final if Anfield legend Neil Mellor doesn't score an 81st minute equaliser either...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2023 15:26:08 GMT
Liverpool wouldn't have been anywhere near that Champions League final in 2005 if it wasn't for Gerrard. You not remember his 88th minute screamer at Anfield to take them through against Olympiakos (I think it was them)? They were out of that tournament if he didn't score. Great goal for sure. They also don't get near the final if Anfield legend Neil Mellor doesn't score an 81st minute equaliser either... See what you did there. Smart, but not really smart as it means nowt as Neil Mellor isn't an all-time Liverpool great and won't go down in the eyes of Liverpool fans in the top 3 Liverpool players of all-time. You keep telling me about how he underperformed for England, yet ignore the fact that pretty much every single one of his team mates throughout his international career did the same, so we're they not brilliant players either? In fact I know that you believe one was, in Frank Lampard.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Sept 6, 2023 15:29:29 GMT
Italia 90 was the start for me really - Scotland XI for comparison: GK Craig Gordon RB Steve Nicol CB Colin Hendry CB Richard Gough LB Andy Robertson CM Paul Lambert CM Billy Gilmour CM Gary McAllister LW John Collins RW Strachan CF Kevin Gallacher Subs Leighton Hickey Tierney Ferguson McGinn Darren Fletcher Steven Fletcher Kenny Miller Considering 20 years of absolute pish it's not a bad side. Steven Fletcher would be great in the current team but was absolutely wasted 50 yards up top on his own. Big Dunc would piss in but can't really pick him given he never played due to falling out with SFA. No Big Chris Iwelumo?👀
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 6, 2023 15:35:20 GMT
Great goal for sure. They also don't get near the final if Anfield legend Neil Mellor doesn't score an 81st minute equaliser either... See what you did there. Smart, but not really smart as it means nowt as Neil Mellor isn't an all-time Liverpool great and won't go down in the eyes of Liverpool fans in the top 3 Liverpool players of all-time. You keep telling me about how he underperformed for England, yet ignore the fact that pretty much every single one of his team mates throughout his international career did the same, so we're they not brilliant players either? In fact I know that you believe one was, in Frank Lampard. That argument would work if it was solely what I was basing my opinion on, but it isn't. I think Lampard was a better player than Gerrard but also vastly overrated by the English media and supporters as well. I think I probably underrated him myself until I saw him live and saw what a clever player he was. Pains me to say it, because I can't abide him as a bloke. Lampard like the rest of them absolutely underachieved for England, as you say, though I'd argue his performances at Euro 2004 were a cut above any produced by Gerrard at an international tournament.
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Post by noustie on Sept 6, 2023 15:52:14 GMT
Italia 90 was the start for me really - Scotland XI for comparison: GK Craig Gordon RB Steve Nicol CB Colin Hendry CB Richard Gough LB Andy Robertson CM Paul Lambert CM Billy Gilmour CM Gary McAllister LW John Collins RW Strachan CF Kevin Gallacher Subs Leighton Hickey Tierney Ferguson McGinn Darren Fletcher Steven Fletcher Kenny Miller Considering 20 years of absolute pish it's not a bad side. Steven Fletcher would be great in the current team but was absolutely wasted 50 yards up top on his own. Big Dunc would piss in but can't really pick him given he never played due to falling out with SFA. No Big Chris Iwelumo?👀 After this I'd say former Scotland and very temporarily Stoke player Alan Smart is ahead of him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2023 15:53:16 GMT
See what you did there. Smart, but not really smart as it means nowt as Neil Mellor isn't an all-time Liverpool great and won't go down in the eyes of Liverpool fans in the top 3 Liverpool players of all-time. You keep telling me about how he underperformed for England, yet ignore the fact that pretty much every single one of his team mates throughout his international career did the same, so we're they not brilliant players either? In fact I know that you believe one was, in Frank Lampard. That argument would work if it was solely what I was basing my opinion on, but it isn't. I think Lampard was a better player than Gerrard but also vastly overrated by the English media and supporters as well. I think I probably underrated him myself until I saw him live and saw what a clever player he was. Pains me to say it, because I can't abide him as a bloke. Lampard like the rest of them absolutely underachieved for England, as you say, though I'd argue his performances at Euro 2004 were a cut above any produced by Gerrard at an international tournament. I felt the same after we first played Chelsea in our first season up. Lampard and Drogba were superb that day at our place and it was then that I realised what player Lampard actually was. It would always have been Gerrard in the England midfield for me though ahead of Frank.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Sept 6, 2023 17:57:31 GMT
I just about got into nogger around Mexico 86 so my England team from then onwards would be
Seaman
Neville Campbell Ferdinand Cole
Bellingham
Beckham Gascoigne Scholes/Gerrard
Kane Rooney/Owen
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Post by bigvern on Sept 6, 2023 18:10:56 GMT
I just about got into nogger around Mexico 86 so my England team from then onwards would be Seaman Neville Campbell Ferdinand Cole Bellingham Beckham Gascoigne Scholes/Gerrard Kane Rooney/Owen I'm from the same era but with just a slightly different 11. Spunky Nev Adams Rio Cole Becks Scholes Ince Gazza Rooney Kane Jude looks like a world beater but just a bit too young yet. The bench would be berserk.
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Post by st3mark on Sept 6, 2023 18:23:33 GMT
My personal england 11 from my time watching would be:
Seaman
Neville (maybe walker) Terry Ferdinand Cole
Gerrard (prefer lampard in club football) Scholes Gascoigne
Owen Shearer Rooney
My world 11 from my time would be:
Buffon
Cafu Nesta Terry Maldini
Zidane Pirlo Gascoigne
Ronaldo 7 Ronaldo 9 Messi
I'd have had Scholes over Pirlo if he'd performed better in tournaments.
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Post by JoeinOz on Sept 7, 2023 1:47:13 GMT
See what you did there. Smart, but not really smart as it means nowt as Neil Mellor isn't an all-time Liverpool great and won't go down in the eyes of Liverpool fans in the top 3 Liverpool players of all-time. You keep telling me about how he underperformed for England, yet ignore the fact that pretty much every single one of his team mates throughout his international career did the same, so we're they not brilliant players either? In fact I know that you believe one was, in Frank Lampard. That argument would work if it was solely what I was basing my opinion on, but it isn't. I think Lampard was a better player than Gerrard but also vastly overrated by the English media and supporters as well. I think I probably underrated him myself until I saw him live and saw what a clever player he was. Pains me to say it, because I can't abide him as a bloke. Lampard like the rest of them absolutely underachieved for England, as you say, though I'd argue his performances at Euro 2004 were a cut above any produced by Gerrard at an international tournament. Not sure about the whole England underachieving thing. Looking at the players, specifically how compared to plenty of opponents, they were limited, England did OK. Quarter finals was par. 2004 was the one. But then when Portugal changed their formation we couldn't adapt. Cruyff's great quote is 'Football is a game you play with your brain'. The inability/refusal to learn and explore possibilities stifled progress. Outmanoeuvred.
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Post by mrnovember on Sept 7, 2023 4:55:38 GMT
Anyone read 'Why England Lose' by Simon Kuper? It's an half decent read from about 10 years ago in which he uses data to argue that England actually over perform.
It's all very selective but it doesn't half make you feel better about our seemingly interminable heartbreak on the international stage.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 7, 2023 7:00:40 GMT
That argument would work if it was solely what I was basing my opinion on, but it isn't. I think Lampard was a better player than Gerrard but also vastly overrated by the English media and supporters as well. I think I probably underrated him myself until I saw him live and saw what a clever player he was. Pains me to say it, because I can't abide him as a bloke. Lampard like the rest of them absolutely underachieved for England, as you say, though I'd argue his performances at Euro 2004 were a cut above any produced by Gerrard at an international tournament. Not sure about the whole England underachieving thing. Looking at the players, specifically how compared to plenty of opponents, they were limited, England did OK. Quarter finals was par. 2004 was the one. But then when Portugal changed their formation we couldn't adapt. Cruyff's great quote is 'Football is a game you play with your brain'. The inability/refusal to learn and explore possibilities stifled progress. Outmanoeuvred. Agree that the anti-intellectualism prevalent for so long in English football has been a disease that held us back. I think we probably should've still progressed a bit further than we did in a couple of tournaments or at least looked the part in a couple of them. That's why for all he's frustrating I think Southgate has done an incredible job overall.
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 7, 2023 7:28:42 GMT
Whilst I know this break will benefit us as a new squad and all-round setup, internationals just don't float the boat for me anymore, so early into a new season after waiting a couple of months to get going. They're a pain in the backside
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2023 8:51:52 GMT
Whilst I know this break will benefit us as a new squad and all-round setup, internationals just don't float the boat for me anymore, so early into a new season after waiting a couple of months to get going. They're a pain in the backside I used to love following England, probably more than Stoke. Unfortunately, I've had the enthusiasm drained out of me with international football over the last few years. Still, if you ever get the chance to go an England away game, I'd highly recommend it.
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Post by campbellsleftpeg on Sept 7, 2023 9:04:26 GMT
pickford
walker terry stones cole
beckham bellingham gerrard sterling
kane rooney
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Mar 13, 2024 15:13:40 GMT
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Mar 13, 2024 15:31:14 GMT
Would be good to see him get another spin. After getting injured playing for England he just never seemed the same. He's obviously worked hard the last couple of years so fair play 👍
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Post by lordb on Mar 13, 2024 15:45:47 GMT
If Gomez is in that may suggest Guehi isn't going to make it
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Post by FullerMagic on Mar 14, 2024 14:00:41 GMT
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Post by tommycarlsberg on Mar 14, 2024 14:05:35 GMT
Henderson, do me a fucking favour.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 14, 2024 14:06:33 GMT
Shame for Butland, he should be in over Johnstone........
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Post by GeneralFaye on Mar 14, 2024 14:16:33 GMT
Shame for Butland, he should be in over Johnstone........ What about Ramsdale? Played 2 games against Brentford and made gaffs in both.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Mar 14, 2024 14:17:48 GMT
The arrogance of Ben White, England probably gets in the way of his sunbed schedule.
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Post by werrington on Mar 14, 2024 14:48:17 GMT
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Post by dirtygary69 on Mar 14, 2024 15:08:14 GMT
The arrogance of Ben White, England probably gets in the way of his sunbed schedule. Unfortunately for him, the more he tans the bigger that fucking nose gets.
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