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Post by walrus on Aug 31, 2023 9:55:48 GMT
There’s a lot of revisionism going on here. He was comfortably our best player in the second half of the 2021/22 season and although his form dipped last season he still had some decent games early on and scored some important goals.
If he doesn’t suit Neil’s preferred style so it’s best to move him on that’s all well and good, but don’t pretend he’s always been shit for us.
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Post by Veritas on Aug 31, 2023 9:57:56 GMT
There’s a lot of revisionism going on here. He was comfortably our best player in the second half of the 2021/22 season and although his form dipped last season he still had some decent games early on and scored some important goals. If he doesn’t suit Neil’s preferred style so it’s best to move him on that’s all well and good, but don’t pretend he’s always been shit for us. There you go again bringing facts into a discussion!
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Post by themistocles on Aug 31, 2023 10:01:08 GMT
Failed at every club. Dogshit attitude. Big earner. Move him on. You’re just making things up regarding his attitude now. Sad. . No, no. I can have an opinion on someone's attitude just like you can. What do you think about his attitude? My rational is viewing his body language last season, he can't stick at a club for long and AN not favouring a technically decent player. We know ANs view on attitude issues with Chiq.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 10:01:33 GMT
There’s a lot of revisionism going on here. He was comfortably our best player in the second half of the 2021/22 season and although his form dipped last season he still had some decent games early on and scored some important goals. If he doesn’t suit Neil’s preferred style so it’s best to move him on that’s all well and good, but don’t pretend he’s always been shit for us. There you go again bringing facts into a discussion! What hope do we have when posters start messages with “impossible to prove but” and then launch into a baseless tirade of drivel.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 31, 2023 10:03:41 GMT
Our best player until Neil came, obviously didn't like him as dropped him almost immediately, even when we were playing beyond bad. Shame as was starting to look a player
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 10:05:23 GMT
You’re just making things up regarding his attitude now. Sad. . No, no. I can have an opinion on someone's attitude just like you can. What do you think about his attitude? My rational is viewing his body language last season, he can't stick at a club for long and AN not favouring a technically decent player. We know ANs view on attitude issues with Chiq. MON praised him for being a great trainer and settling immediately in the area with his family when he arrived (Vs Surridge presumably who didn’t settle). He trusted him enough to be made captain, and referenced his professionalism more than once. Remember as well that he had knee surgery this summer, so ever likely he was playing with an injury in spells last time out. Under MON he was a decent starting midfielder. I don’t think his face fits the Neil regime and what he wants from a CM which is fine, it happens, but I don’t think it’s down to attitude. You’ve seen what Neil does to seemingly poor attitude in the way he’s cut Chiquinho off after a month, and I’ve not seen him freeze Baker out of squads prior to his injury/surgery. That’s my view I guess. Players can sometimes play badly or not fit a system, but it’s not always down to a poor attitude.
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Post by bgreen13 on Aug 31, 2023 10:13:18 GMT
Our best player until Neil came, obviously didn't like him as dropped him almost immediately, even when we were playing beyond bad. Shame as was starting to look a player Absolute bollocks
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 31, 2023 10:14:16 GMT
Our best player until Neil came, obviously didn't like him as dropped him almost immediately, even when we were playing beyond bad. Shame as was starting to look a player Absolute bollocks No it's what happened but thanks for the input 😁
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Post by bgreen13 on Aug 31, 2023 10:14:51 GMT
Like Tymon, the season before last he was very good.
Last season, uninterested.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 31, 2023 10:23:22 GMT
No it's what happened but thanks for the input 😁 It isn't really is it? He wasn't dropped almost immediately and he wasn't this absolute lion who suddenly turned to shit the second the evil, villainous Alex Neil replaced the heroic, angelic Michael O'Neil.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 31, 2023 10:27:22 GMT
No it's what happened but thanks for the input 😁 It isn't really is it? He wasn't dropped almost immediately and he wasn't this absolute lion who suddenly turned to shit the second the evil, villainous Alex Neil replaced the heroic, angelic Michael O'Neil. No one said he was an absolute lion unless I missed that. He was our best player though for a spell and no one called MON heroic or indeed Angelic. And you talk about things that didn't happen. AN simply didn't fancy him as a player or otherwise, why we don't know and again, no one called him villainous , he simply left him out for reasons that we can only speculate about
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 31, 2023 10:32:04 GMT
It isn't really is it? He wasn't dropped almost immediately and he wasn't this absolute lion who suddenly turned to shit the second the evil, villainous Alex Neil replaced the heroic, angelic Michael O'Neil. No one said he was an absolute lion unless I missed that. He was our best player though for a spell and no one called MON heroic or indeed Angelic. And you talk about things that didn't happen. AN simply didn't fancy him as a player or otherwise, why we don't know and again, no one called him villainous , he simply left him out for reasons that we can only speculate about I was helpfully including your subtext. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/KYqg3pYeaerc5lD_P7BR.gif) I think we more or less do know why he was dropped, he wasn't playing well (he was given plenty of opportunity to do so) and he didn't fit how Neil wanted to play. Laurent was pretty bad for a lot of the season as well but was terrible in the new style, as the saying goes, in that he was capable of doing the stuff Neil was looking for on occasion when Baker rarely was. Baker's performances started to decline after his new contract, and his knack for a goal masked the fact that he wasn't doing much else.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 31, 2023 10:34:01 GMT
No one said he was an absolute lion unless I missed that. He was our best player though for a spell and no one called MON heroic or indeed Angelic. And you talk about things that didn't happen. AN simply didn't fancy him as a player or otherwise, why we don't know and again, no one called him villainous , he simply left him out for reasons that we can only speculate about I was helpfully including your subtext. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/KYqg3pYeaerc5lD_P7BR.gif) I think we more or less do know why he was dropped, he wasn't playing well (he was given plenty of opportunity to do so) and he didn't fit how Neil wanted to play. Laurent was pretty bad for a lot of the season as well but was terrible in the new style, as the saying goes, in that he was capable of doing the stuff Neil was looking for on occasion when Baker rarely was. Baker's performances started to decline after his new contract, and his knack for a goal masked the fact that he wasn't doing much else. He was no better or worse than anyone else and all this attitude stuff is complete guesswork.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 10:34:58 GMT
No one said he was an absolute lion unless I missed that. He was our best player though for a spell and no one called MON heroic or indeed Angelic. And you talk about things that didn't happen. AN simply didn't fancy him as a player or otherwise, why we don't know and again, no one called him villainous , he simply left him out for reasons that we can only speculate about I was helpfully including your subtext. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/KYqg3pYeaerc5lD_P7BR.gif) I think we more or less do know why he was dropped, he wasn't playing well (he was given plenty of opportunity to do so) and he didn't fit how Neil wanted to play. Laurent was pretty bad for a lot of the season as well but was terrible in the new style, as the saying goes, in that he was capable of doing the stuff Neil was looking for on occasion when Baker rarely was. Baker's performances started to decline after his new contract, and his knack for a goal masked the fact that he wasn't doing much else. Which is a shame as Laurent simply wasn’t doing much else….but without the goals.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 31, 2023 10:46:00 GMT
I was helpfully including your subtext. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/KYqg3pYeaerc5lD_P7BR.gif) I think we more or less do know why he was dropped, he wasn't playing well (he was given plenty of opportunity to do so) and he didn't fit how Neil wanted to play. Laurent was pretty bad for a lot of the season as well but was terrible in the new style, as the saying goes, in that he was capable of doing the stuff Neil was looking for on occasion when Baker rarely was. Baker's performances started to decline after his new contract, and his knack for a goal masked the fact that he wasn't doing much else. He was no better or worse than anyone else and all this attitude stuff is complete guesswork. I have no idea what his attitude was like, I'm just talking about his performances.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 31, 2023 10:47:51 GMT
I was helpfully including your subtext. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/KYqg3pYeaerc5lD_P7BR.gif) I think we more or less do know why he was dropped, he wasn't playing well (he was given plenty of opportunity to do so) and he didn't fit how Neil wanted to play. Laurent was pretty bad for a lot of the season as well but was terrible in the new style, as the saying goes, in that he was capable of doing the stuff Neil was looking for on occasion when Baker rarely was. Baker's performances started to decline after his new contract, and his knack for a goal masked the fact that he wasn't doing much else. Which is a shame as Laurent simply wasn’t doing much else….but without the goals. I'm no fan of Laurent at all but when he does play well he can drive forward with the ball and carry it, which isn't really Baker's thing. The plan seems to be energy and dynamism and that isn't Baker. Neither of them feature in our strongest XI imo.
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Post by nott1 on Aug 31, 2023 10:50:38 GMT
You’re just making things up regarding his attitude now. Sad. . No, no. I can have an opinion on someone's attitude just like you can. What do you think about his attitude? My rational is viewing his body language last season, he can't stick at a club for long and AN not favouring a technically decent player. We know ANs view on attitude issues with Chiq. Maybe he was sick of playing with last years class of wastrels but now.........
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Post by ceejays on Aug 31, 2023 10:51:01 GMT
He was no better or worse than anyone else and all this attitude stuff is complete guesswork. I have no idea what his attitude was like, I'm just talking about his performances. As I’ve posted before there was one match where Baker and Neil walked off the pitch together. The camera zoomed in on them . Neil was explaining some tactical issue in an animated fashion - arms waving about . Baker rolled his eyes and blanked him . After that he was demoted to the bench . So there was an attitude issue of some sorts
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 31, 2023 10:52:03 GMT
In hindsight it appears Baker was playing whilst carrying an injury that ultimately led to him having an op which needs to be taken into consideration.......
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 31, 2023 11:00:04 GMT
15 goals in 60 odd games is quite a record and as Toxie said, he seemed to be struggling with some kind of injury for the latter part for me also.
His strike rate is on par with our forwards which seemed odd to leave him out when we were struggling for goals
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Post by coldtuesdaynight on Aug 31, 2023 11:04:07 GMT
I just think he’s one of those players that suits a certain style of play. Unfortunately that style was O’Neill’s and nearly all of us hated it by the end. Trying to predict Neill’s long term 11, I can’t see how he’d fit in over Berger (based on very early impressions obviously) or Pearson (or Laurent even). And is he really a better attacking midfielder than Johnson or one of the newer players who will probably be given more game time there as the season progresses? Players like this are the main reason we need to hope the managerial appointments are also going to improve under this new regime. Hopefully they’ll at least ask the next manager what their preferred formation is before they appoint a 3-5-2 merchant to manage a squad with several wingers. Imagine if they’d asked Rowett whether he was happy with the millions of midfielders we already had at the club before giving him free reign over our transfer dealings… I tend to agree, although he's much better than Thompson.And he's still at the club (as of writing) This is true. I’d imagine Thompson’s choices are less alluring to tempt him away from being a back up here though to be fair. As much as we as fans would want the better player to remain, sometimes you do need someone who’s happy just filling in when required. Especially once you start getting to 4th or 5th choice.
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Post by lordb on Aug 31, 2023 11:14:31 GMT
In hindsight it appears Baker was playing whilst carrying an injury that ultimately led to him having an op which needs to be taken into consideration....... yes but he got that injury a fair while after his performances dropped he was excellent in that first season he demanded & got a new contract
whether consciously or subconsciously from the first game at Millwall last season ( before his injury, before AN was here) he appeared to be putting in half arsed performances which to my mind is not acceptable
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 31, 2023 11:18:44 GMT
In hindsight it appears Baker was playing whilst carrying an injury that ultimately led to him having an op which needs to be taken into consideration....... yes but he got that injury a fair while after his performances dropped he was excellent in that first season he demanded & got a new contract
whether consciously or subconsciously from the first game at Millwall last season ( before his injury, before AN was here) he appeared to be putting in half arsed performances which to my mind is not acceptable He demanded a new contract, where's the evidence for that?
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Post by lordb on Aug 31, 2023 12:22:08 GMT
yes but he got that injury a fair while after his performances dropped he was excellent in that first season he demanded & got a new contract
whether consciously or subconsciously from the first game at Millwall last season ( before his injury, before AN was here) he appeared to be putting in half arsed performances which to my mind is not acceptable He demanded a new contract, where's the evidence for that? it's in the public domain that he got a new contract there were posts before that season had ended that he had demanded a new contract > OK we don't know how that was worded or done but the fact he got one is good evidence cant see Stoke volunteering a new contract for him 6 months after signing him without pressure from the player/his agent Don't have an issue with that in itself, don't ask you don't get, but what I do have an issue is players gets new deal & then performances drop right off which is quite clearly what happened as the 2000 or so Stoke fans who went to Millwall last season & the thousands more who watched the subsequent games before MoN was sacked will testify to Be interested to hear Michael O'Neill's opinion on Baker rescues him, makes him the star man, gets him a bumper deal & then when the pressure is on don't give a shit He's a goal scoring threat in this league when he wants to be
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Aug 31, 2023 12:33:38 GMT
He was no better or worse than anyone else and all this attitude stuff is complete guesswork. I have no idea what his attitude was like, I'm just talking about his performances. He was the highest scoring midfielder in the division at one stage. His performances seemed ok to me. When we couldn't score and were losing games regularly, he still didn't pick him
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 31, 2023 12:34:13 GMT
He demanded a new contract, where's the evidence for that? it's in the public domain that he got a new contract there were posts before that season had ended that he had demanded a new contract > OK we don't know how that was worded or done but the fact he got one is good evidence cant see Stoke volunteering a new contract for him 6 months after signing him without pressure from the player/his agent Don't have an issue with that in itself, don't ask you don't get, but what I do have an issue is players gets new deal & then performances drop right off which is quite clearly what happened as the 2000 or so Stoke fans who went to Millwall last season & the thousands more who watched the subsequent games before AN was sacked will testify to Be interested to hear Michael O'Neill's opinion on Baker rescues him, makes him the star man, gets him a bumper deal & then when the pressure is on don't give a shit He's a goal scoring threat in this league when he wants to be I know it's in the public domain that he signed one, I've just seen zero evidence to suggest he DEMANDED one. We could have just wanted to keep a player that had a really positive start to his career by improving/amending his contract accordingly...........
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Post by lordb on Aug 31, 2023 12:39:08 GMT
it's in the public domain that he got a new contract there were posts before that season had ended that he had demanded a new contract > OK we don't know how that was worded or done but the fact he got one is good evidence cant see Stoke volunteering a new contract for him 6 months after signing him without pressure from the player/his agent Don't have an issue with that in itself, don't ask you don't get, but what I do have an issue is players gets new deal & then performances drop right off which is quite clearly what happened as the 2000 or so Stoke fans who went to Millwall last season & the thousands more who watched the subsequent games before AN was sacked will testify to Be interested to hear Michael O'Neill's opinion on Baker rescues him, makes him the star man, gets him a bumper deal & then when the pressure is on don't give a shit He's a goal scoring threat in this league when he wants to be I know it's in the public domain that he signed one, I've just seen zero evidence to suggest he DEMANDED one. We could have just wanted to keep a player that had a really positive start to his career by improving/amending his contract accordingly........... We could...but do you really think that's likely? 6 months after giving him a contract he gets a new one > be very un Stoke like. That came after rumours that he demanded it That to me verified the rumours Bit like the Chiq' scenario atm, rumour is AN wants him out re bad attitude in training > no direct evidence for that but the fact he's not picked in last two squads (especially with Videgal out last time) to me substantiates that rumour somewhat You don't need to 100% confirm a rumour to see it's true or broadly true
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 31, 2023 12:45:06 GMT
I know it's in the public domain that he signed one, I've just seen zero evidence to suggest he DEMANDED one. We could have just wanted to keep a player that had a really positive start to his career by improving/amending his contract accordingly........... We could...but do you really think that's likely? 6 months after giving him a contract he gets a new one > be very un Stoke like. That came after rumours that he demanded it That to me verified the rumours Bit like the Chiq' scenario atm, rumour is AN wants him out re bad attitude in training > no direct evidence for that but the fact he's not picked in last two squads (especially with Videgal out last time) to me substantiates that rumour somewhat You don't need to 100% confirm a rumour to see it's true or broadly true There was no rumours that he demanded a new contract that I'm aware of though, I'd love to see them. We signed him in the January window, the terms of that contract may have reflected his status at that time but his stock would have risen massively between then an the summer. He may have a had a release clause that we wanted to amend/get rid of? All speculation but whatever the reason I certainly haven't seen any evidence to suggest he threw his toys out of the pram about a new deal........
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Post by AlliG on Aug 31, 2023 12:46:30 GMT
I know it's in the public domain that he signed one, I've just seen zero evidence to suggest he DEMANDED one. We could have just wanted to keep a player that had a really positive start to his career by improving/amending his contract accordingly........... We could...but do you really think that's likely? 6 months after giving him a contract he gets a new one > be very un Stoke like. That came after rumours that he demanded it That to me verified the rumours Bit like the Chiq' scenario atm, rumour is AN wants him out re bad attitude in training > no direct evidence for that but the fact he's not picked in last two squads (especially with Videgal out last time) to me substantiates that rumour somewhat You don't need to 100% confirm a rumour to see it's true or broadly true At the time he signed his new contract it was also suggested that it removed a very low buy-out clause that was in his original contract, which made the new contract beneficial to the club. Maybe the club approached his agent first about the new contract?
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Post by gawa on Sept 22, 2023 11:29:25 GMT
Is baker still injured or just out of favour?
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