|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Jul 11, 2024 11:18:32 GMT
If a 16 years old Spanish player, sorry can't remember his name, plays as well as he did last night in a full international game then I'm sure Sol is capable of getting into our first team. By that logic perhaps we should just play all our 16/17 year olds? |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 11, 2024 11:20:32 GMT
Yes he should. Because he’s not picking him for specific games. There should be a target that he plays x amount and we develop him with the best interests of the club at heart. Managers are short term appointments and will make short term decisions. The sporting director has to ensure that doesn’t happen. The Sporting Director should ensure the players are in place to make us a good team. That should be a combination of youth players that we’ve developed and players we’ve signed who will strengthen us and potentially make us money in future transfers, The Sporting Director should have no input on team selection unless asked by the manager. In which case I’d seriously wonder about the managers suitability. They absolutely should be dictating that certain youth plauers have pathways. And if that isn’t followed, the head coach should be relieved of their duties. |
|
|
|
Post by foxysgloves on Jul 11, 2024 11:22:27 GMT
The Sporting Director should ensure the players are in place to make us a good team. That should be a combination of youth players that we’ve developed and players we’ve signed who will strengthen us and potentially make us money in future transfers, The Sporting Director should have no input on team selection unless asked by the manager. In which case I’d seriously wonder about the managers suitability. They absolutely should be dictating that certain youth plauers have pathways. And if that isn’t followed, the head coach should be relieved of their duties. So even if the manager feels he’s not the best option for a certain game he has to play him because Jon says Sol must play 10 games this season? Are you for real? |
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Jul 11, 2024 11:23:08 GMT
You said Walters should be pushing for him to get game time. How’s that not picking the team? I’m pretty sure if Sol is good enough that Schumacher will be able to judge that himself. Yes he should. Because he’s not picking him for specific games. There should be a target that he plays x amount and we develop him with the best interests of the club at heart. Managers are short term appointments and will make short term decisions. The sporting director has to ensure that doesn’t happen. So Sol can just sit back in training knowing that he doesn't have to earn his place or show improvement to be guaranteed x number of games. Perhaps we should say the same about Jokic who we spent good money on. I'm glad Sol seems to have a better grasp of how he can get in the first team than you do? The best for the club is to pick the best team regardless of age. No such thing as too old or too young. |
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Jul 11, 2024 11:27:56 GMT
The Sporting Director should ensure the players are in place to make us a good team. That should be a combination of youth players that we’ve developed and players we’ve signed who will strengthen us and potentially make us money in future transfers, The Sporting Director should have no input on team selection unless asked by the manager. In which case I’d seriously wonder about the managers suitability. They absolutely should be dictating that certain youth plauers have pathways. And if that isn’t followed, the head coach should be relieved of their duties. There is a clear pathway, I don't know what it is , but several young players have joined us from more high profile academies recently quoting the clear pathway as their reason. A clear pathway does not guarantee first team chances it sets out clearly how they can become a first team squad player. You can't promise rewards without outlining what you expect them to do to get those rewards. |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 11, 2024 16:45:14 GMT
They absolutely should be dictating that certain youth plauers have pathways. And if that isn’t followed, the head coach should be relieved of their duties. So even if the manager feels he’s not the best option for a certain game he has to play him because Jon says Sol must play 10 games this season? Are you for real? Yes. The clubs interests are more important than that of the head coach. There should be a target there for how many games he plays and the head coach should make sure it happens. The club vision should be more important the head coaches who should be here no more than 2/3 years. You cannot expect them to think long term. So you should force that on them. |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 11, 2024 16:47:29 GMT
Yes he should. Because he’s not picking him for specific games. There should be a target that he plays x amount and we develop him with the best interests of the club at heart. Managers are short term appointments and will make short term decisions. The sporting director has to ensure that doesn’t happen. So Sol can just sit back in training knowing that he doesn't have to earn his place or show improvement to be guaranteed x number of games. Perhaps we should say the same about Jokic who we spent good money on. I'm glad Sol seems to have a better grasp of how he can get in the first team than you do? The best for the club is to pick the best team regardless of age. No such thing as too old or too young. No of course not. No one is saying he doesn’t have to earn his place 😂 But pathways should be provided. That’s surely obvious if you want to develop young players and want others to join? Sol currently is part of the best set of players for the match day squad. |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 11, 2024 16:48:53 GMT
They absolutely should be dictating that certain youth plauers have pathways. And if that isn’t followed, the head coach should be relieved of their duties. There is a clear pathway, I don't know what it is , but several young players have joined us from more high profile academies recently quoting the clear pathway as their reason. A clear pathway does not guarantee first team chances it sets out clearly how they can become a first team squad player. You can't promise rewards without outlining what you expect them to do to get those rewards. They get told their is but you have to prove that by playing them. Sol came in last season and coped with the Championship as a 16 year old. I feel people are failing to grasp how impressive that is |
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Jul 11, 2024 17:32:15 GMT
So Sol can just sit back in training knowing that he doesn't have to earn his place or show improvement to be guaranteed x number of games. Perhaps we should say the same about Jokic who we spent good money on. I'm glad Sol seems to have a better grasp of how he can get in the first team than you do? The best for the club is to pick the best team regardless of age. No such thing as too old or too young. No of course not. No one is saying he doesn’t have to earn his place 😂 But pathways should be provided. That’s surely obvious if you want to develop young players and want others to join? Sol currently is part of the best set of players for the match day squad. So these 18 year olds who have joined Stoke recently from the likes of Spurs and Chelsea, along with our own players who have recently signed their first professional contracts with Stoke citing the clear pathway they have been given are just saying that because they have been told to? I have no idea what a clear pathway might be for a young player but I suspect that it sets targets which they will be working towards which will include when and how they can be expected to get first team chances. I am sure that these chances will be contingent on players achieving certain targets in training and playing in the age groups. I think for example that Sidibe's target last year would have included holding down, on merit, a regular starting place in the u21s and being involved on a regular basis in first team training and squads. All of which he achieved on merit not on some random promise from the club. I am also sure that in his performance review at the end of the season new targets were set based on what the club foresee him achieving this year to maintain his progress. This will not be a promise of a certain number of appearances but what they expect him to achieve if he continues his progress through hard work, application and showing that he is good enough to get in the first team. |
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Jul 11, 2024 17:39:16 GMT
There is a clear pathway, I don't know what it is , but several young players have joined us from more high profile academies recently quoting the clear pathway as their reason. A clear pathway does not guarantee first team chances it sets out clearly how they can become a first team squad player. You can't promise rewards without outlining what you expect them to do to get those rewards. They get told their is but you have to prove that by playing them. Sol came in last season and coped with the Championship as a 16 year old. I feel people are failing to grasp how impressive that is I disagree. You tell them what they are expected to do to earn the right to play. Coaches will be saying to them that if they want to get a first team chance then they need to improve x,y or z. If they work on that side of their game then they can expect to get a chance to play games not a promise that they will. Their coaches will regularly be assessing their performances with them and I am sure discussions are held as to why they are not yet playing in the first team and it might be simply that other players at the moment are playing better.Sidibe is obviously happy that this is happening in his Stoke career at the moment |
|
|
|
Post by bertiestan on Jul 11, 2024 17:46:55 GMT
There is a clear pathway, I don't know what it is , but several young players have joined us from more high profile academies recently quoting the clear pathway as their reason. A clear pathway does not guarantee first team chances it sets out clearly how they can become a first team squad player. You can't promise rewards without outlining what you expect them to do to get those rewards. They get told their is but you have to prove that by playing them. Sol came in last season and coped with the Championship as a 16 year old. I feel people are failing to grasp how impressive that is Not me Bayern🔴⚪️ |
|
|
|
Post by J-Roar on Jul 11, 2024 18:04:26 GMT
They get told their is but you have to prove that by playing them. Sol came in last season and coped with the Championship as a 16 year old. I feel people are failing to grasp how impressive that is I disagree. You tell them what they are expected to do to earn the right to play. Coaches will be saying to them that if they want to get a first team chance then they need to improve x,y or z. If they work on that side of their game then they can expect to get a chance to play games not a promise that they will. Their coaches will regularly be assessing their performances with them and I am sure discussions are held as to why they are not yet playing in the first team and it might be simply that other players at the moment are playing better.Sidibe is obviously happy that this is happening in his Stoke career at the moment You poor bastard. You're in for a long night. |
|
|
|
Post by foxysgloves on Jul 11, 2024 19:47:13 GMT
So even if the manager feels he’s not the best option for a certain game he has to play him because Jon says Sol must play 10 games this season? Are you for real? Yes. The clubs interests are more important than that of the head coach. There should be a target there for how many games he plays and the head coach should make sure it happens. The club vision should be more important the head coaches who should be here no more than 2/3 years. You cannot expect them to think long term. So you should force that on them. You’d insist a manager plays a player he doesn’t feel is the right player for the team? What manager would be foolish enough to stand for that? |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 11, 2024 20:01:47 GMT
No of course not. No one is saying he doesn’t have to earn his place 😂 But pathways should be provided. That’s surely obvious if you want to develop young players and want others to join? Sol currently is part of the best set of players for the match day squad. So these 18 year olds who have joined Stoke recently from the likes of Spurs and Chelsea, along with our own players who have recently signed their first professional contracts with Stoke citing the clear pathway they have been given are just saying that because they have been told to? I have no idea what a clear pathway might be for a young player but I suspect that it sets targets which they will be working towards which will include when and how they can be expected to get first team chances. I am sure that these chances will be contingent on players achieving certain targets in training and playing in the age groups. I think for example that Sidibe's target last year would have included holding down, on merit, a regular starting place in the u21s and being involved on a regular basis in first team training and squads. All of which he achieved on merit not on some random promise from the club. I am also sure that in his performance review at the end of the season new targets were set based on what the club foresee him achieving this year to maintain his progress. This will not be a promise of a certain number of appearances but what they expect him to achieve if he continues his progress through hard work, application and showing that he is good enough to get in the first team. They’ve been told it so are repeating it. And we probably have a better pathway than those club because that isn’t difficult. |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 11, 2024 20:02:47 GMT
They get told their is but you have to prove that by playing them. Sol came in last season and coped with the Championship as a 16 year old. I feel people are failing to grasp how impressive that is I disagree. You tell them what they are expected to do to earn the right to play. Coaches will be saying to them that if they want to get a first team chance then they need to improve x,y or z. If they work on that side of their game then they can expect to get a chance to play games not a promise that they will. Their coaches will regularly be assessing their performances with them and I am sure discussions are held as to why they are not yet playing in the first team and it might be simply that other players at the moment are playing better.Sidibe is obviously happy that this is happening in his Stoke career at the moment And no one is saying that won’t happen. But they need game time to develop and that has to be guaranteed to some extent. |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 11, 2024 20:03:40 GMT
Yes. The clubs interests are more important than that of the head coach. There should be a target there for how many games he plays and the head coach should make sure it happens. The club vision should be more important the head coaches who should be here no more than 2/3 years. You cannot expect them to think long term. So you should force that on them. You’d insist a manager plays a player he doesn’t feel is the right player for the team? What manager would be foolish enough to stand for that? He’s not the manager. He’s just the head coach. If the club want a player playing for development for the club then yes he should play them. |
|
|
|
Post by foxysgloves on Jul 11, 2024 23:03:42 GMT
You’d insist a manager plays a player he doesn’t feel is the right player for the team? What manager would be foolish enough to stand for that? He’s not the manager. He’s just the head coach. If the club want a player playing for development for the club then yes he should play them. I’m confused. Who should pick the team? |
|
|
|
Post by Sfance on Jul 12, 2024 1:43:46 GMT
He’s not the manager. He’s just the head coach. If the club want a player playing for development for the club then yes he should play them. I’m confused. Who should pick the team? Bayern? |
|
|
|
Post by Trouserdog on Jul 12, 2024 5:23:34 GMT
You’d insist a manager plays a player he doesn’t feel is the right player for the team? What manager would be foolish enough to stand for that? He’s not the manager. He’s just the head coach. If the club want a player playing for development for the club then yes he should play them. So Walters says to Schumacher, Sidibe has to start, for argument's sake, 15 games this season. Schumacher starts him for 10 in the first half of the season, but he's not really cutting it...he's struggling physically, like youngsters tend to at this level. However, the team are doing fine and are in the hunt for the play offs. Schumacher takes Sidibe out of the team. We get to April and we have a chance of getting in the top 2. We need results in our last 5 games. Walters tells Schumacher he has to pick Sidibe for these games because the development of the player is important... |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 12, 2024 5:57:22 GMT
He’s not the manager. He’s just the head coach. If the club want a player playing for development for the club then yes he should play them. I’m confused. Who should pick the team? He wouldn’t be picking the team would he? But there should protocols in place that mean the head coach plays players that the sporting director and academy director think are ready and that in the medium to long term can make this club a lot of money. |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 12, 2024 5:59:04 GMT
He’s not the manager. He’s just the head coach. If the club want a player playing for development for the club then yes he should play them. So Walters says to Schumacher, Sidibe has to start, for argument's sake, 15 games this season. Schumacher starts him for 10 in the first half of the season, but he's not really cutting it...he's struggling physically, like youngsters tend to at this level. However, the team are doing fine and are in the hunt for the play offs. Schumacher takes Sidibe out of the team. We get to April and we have a chance of getting in the top 2. We need results in our last 5 games. Walters tells Schumacher he has to pick Sidibe for these games because the development of the player is important... Then he gets dropped as they would be constantly evaluating it. It’s not really a difficult concept to understand is it. |
|
|
|
Post by cheekymatt71 on Jul 12, 2024 8:35:57 GMT
I’m confused. Who should pick the team? He wouldn’t be picking the team would he? But there should protocols in place that mean the head coach plays players that the sporting director and academy director think are ready and that in the medium to long term can make this club a lot of money. If Walters gives Shumacher a target of 15 games in the season for a youth player - that is by default picking the team to a certain extent. You can give Sidibe a target of 15 games in the first team, but you can in no way push that onto the manager. |
|
|
|
Post by foxysgloves on Jul 12, 2024 8:49:29 GMT
I’m confused. Who should pick the team? He wouldn’t be picking the team would he? But there should protocols in place that mean the head coach plays players that the sporting director and academy director think are ready and that in the medium to long term can make this club a lot of money. So the manager should pick the team. So long as he picks the players he’s told to. Gotcha. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2024 10:03:21 GMT
Yes. The clubs interests are more important than that of the head coach. There should be a target there for how many games he plays and the head coach should make sure it happens. The club vision should be more important the head coaches who should be here no more than 2/3 years. You cannot expect them to think long term. So you should force that on them. You’d insist a manager plays a player he doesn’t feel is the right player for the team? What manager would be foolish enough to stand for that? Head coaches would. That’s kind of the point of them. They are there to listen to the directives of those above them, just like in any line of business. Would bringing on Sol last season instead of Johnson had been a bad idea? How many points did Johnson help us get? Would bringing on Tezgel instead of Mmaee or Wesley been such a travesty? Merit works both ways. Senior players shouldn’t be played just because they are senior. If they are shit, they should be dropped as well. If we still have Baker, Laurent, Johnson, Thompson and Burger at the beginning of the season, then Sidibe should go out on loan as the manager will likely hinder his progress in favor of players who underperform. Hopefully. Walters et al will clear an obvious space for him in the squad though. |
|
|
|
Post by foxysgloves on Jul 12, 2024 10:06:20 GMT
You’d insist a manager plays a player he doesn’t feel is the right player for the team? What manager would be foolish enough to stand for that? Head coaches would. That’s kind of the point of them. They are there to listen to the directives of those above them, just like in any line of business. Would bringing on Sol last season instead of Johnson had been a bad idea? How many points did Johnson help us get? Would bringing on Tezgel instead of Mmaee or Wesley been such a travesty? Merit works both ways. Senior players shouldn’t be played just because they are senior. If they are shit, they should be dropped as well. If we still have Baker, Laurent, Johnson, Thompson and Burger at the beginning of the season, then Sidibe should go out on loan as the manager will likely hinder his progress in favor of players who underperform. Hopefully. Walters et al will clear an obvious space for him in the squad though. Is that really how it works? Schumacher is told who to play? Isn’t his main job to prepare and pick a team he believes will do the job? I think any head coach who picks a team that he’s been told to pick wouldn’t hang around too long. |
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Jul 12, 2024 10:24:53 GMT
He wouldn’t be picking the team would he? But there should protocols in place that mean the head coach plays players that the sporting director and academy director think are ready and that in the medium to long term can make this club a lot of money. If Walters gives Shumacher a target of 15 games in the season for a youth player - that is by default picking the team to a certain extent. You can give Sidibe a target of 15 games in the first team, but you can in no way push that onto the manager. I think this is where people get confused. Yes, in discussion with Schumacher Sidibe, Tezgel etc should be given a realistic target of the number of games they should expect to play. The onus is on them then to do well enough to get at least that number of appearances. The manager should only pick them on merit and if they don't get picked it will be up to them to prove they are a good option by what they do in training. The appearances could be as starts or from the bench. I assume there will be ongoing discussions during the season at which they will have their progress assessed and will be able to find out why they are not getting picked. Jon Walters should only get involved if he feels they are not being given a fair chance at which point he should discuss with Schumacher |
|
|
|
Post by Staffsoatcake on Jul 12, 2024 10:32:39 GMT
I don't care if he is a manager or Coach,Shue is in charge of the players,it is his head on the block,so he should pick whichever players he wants,if the backroom staff don't like it,they can fuck off.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2024 10:44:32 GMT
Head coaches would. That’s kind of the point of them. They are there to listen to the directives of those above them, just like in any line of business. Would bringing on Sol last season instead of Johnson had been a bad idea? How many points did Johnson help us get? Would bringing on Tezgel instead of Mmaee or Wesley been such a travesty? Merit works both ways. Senior players shouldn’t be played just because they are senior. If they are shit, they should be dropped as well. If we still have Baker, Laurent, Johnson, Thompson and Burger at the beginning of the season, then Sidibe should go out on loan as the manager will likely hinder his progress in favor of players who underperform. Hopefully. Walters et al will clear an obvious space for him in the squad though. Is that really how it works? Schumacher is told who to play? Isn’t his main job to prepare and pick a team he believes will do the job? I think any head coach who picks a team that he’s been told to pick wouldn’t hang around too long. If youth development is an important part of the new club culture then having a head coach who believes in that is important. If they believe in it, then setting the head coach a target of facilitating growth shouldn’t be a problem as it is in line with his own beliefs. If it is an important club goal but is not one that the coach believes in, then the club needs to replace them. Again, was Johnson a better option than Sidibe at any point last season? It’s not like Sidibe is fighting for a place against top players who are bang in form. |
|
|
|
Post by foxysgloves on Jul 12, 2024 10:48:06 GMT
Is that really how it works? Schumacher is told who to play? Isn’t his main job to prepare and pick a team he believes will do the job? I think any head coach who picks a team that he’s been told to pick wouldn’t hang around too long. If youth development is an important part of the new club culture then having a head coach who believes in that is important. If they believe in it, then setting the head coach a target of facilitating growth shouldn’t be a problem as it is in line with his own beliefs. If it is an important club goal but is not one that the coach believes in, then the club needs to replace them. Again, was Johnson a better option than Sidibe at any point last season? It’s not like Sidibe is fighting for a place against top players who are bang in form. Setting him targets is completely different to telling him he must play certain youth players a certain number of times. As an aspirational target that’s fine, if it’s something he must do then it’s bonkers. And that’s how this debate began and the point I was arguing. The Head Coach/Manager picks the team. End of. He can listen to all the advice and input he wants to but ultimately it’s his call and his future employment rests on if he gets it right or not. |
|
|
|
Post by Trouserdog on Jul 12, 2024 15:18:14 GMT
So Walters says to Schumacher, Sidibe has to start, for argument's sake, 15 games this season. Schumacher starts him for 10 in the first half of the season, but he's not really cutting it...he's struggling physically, like youngsters tend to at this level. However, the team are doing fine and are in the hunt for the play offs. Schumacher takes Sidibe out of the team. We get to April and we have a chance of getting in the top 2. We need results in our last 5 games. Walters tells Schumacher he has to pick Sidibe for these games because the development of the player is important... Then he gets dropped as they would be constantly evaluating it. It’s not really a difficult concept to understand is it. So we're basically at the point of 'Try to play the youngsters if you can' but the manager has the final say. That's where we've always been then? |
|
