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Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 7, 2024 13:24:12 GMT
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Israel
Oct 7, 2024 13:30:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Oct 7, 2024 13:30:07 GMT
words in public telling Israel to stick to international law, which of course they don't....... Sometimes mentioned up here too, that they should, but not that often I'd say.
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Israel
Oct 7, 2024 13:53:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2024 13:53:07 GMT
I don't understand the point you are making. Hezbollah, Hamas and the current regime in Iran are committed to the destruction of the state of Israel. There are hardliners in the Israeli government hell bent on removing the Palestinians from Israel but the regime is Israel itself is not committed to the eradication of the Palestinian people. If you believe the Isreali state is committed to eradicating the Palestinians then it is consistent to expect the West to withdraw support. However the the consequence is the eradication of the state of Israel and the genocide of the Jews in Israel. If their are posters on here who take this view not a single on of them has been honest about the consequences of that position. The US and the UK position as I understand it is: 1 To support the right of Isreal to exist. Which means providing miltary support to defend itself from those that would eradicate the state of Israel. 2 To support the rights of the Palestinian people in their right to self determination and condemning Isreal when it goes too far in its war with Hamas and continuing land grab in the north. They are doing this in of diplomatic efforts with other to bring about a two state solution. The stance is inherently ambiguous. Forcing this into a binary choice of either fully backing Isreal (which isn't what is happening) or fully withdrawing support from Isreal (which would lead to its eradication) would make matters worse for one side or the other, Destruction of the state of Israel can mean two things though can't it? An Israel being replaced by a state that is inclusive for Jews, Muslims, Christians alike (a one state solution essentially) is very different to wiping every Jew in Israel off the face of the planet. I don't believe that the latter is on the agenda from Iran, it may be in the eyes of Hamas and Hezbollah hard liners but as I've said previously, dialogue and quid pro quo agreements between all parties could soon soften that stance. The world is full of examples of neighbouring states/religious groups that were once trying to kill each other now living side by side. When you talk about "support" for Israel that shouldn't be come what may, and the only potential ethnic cleansing/genocide currently taking place is in Gaza not across the border.......... Exactly.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 7, 2024 13:59:43 GMT
There are hard line members of the Netanyahu government calling for the death and destruction of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, should we withdraw support on the same basis? A. I don't understand the point you are making. Hezbollah, Hamas and the current regime in Iran are committed to the destruction of the state of Israel. B. There are hardliners in the Israeli government hell bent on removing the Palestinians from Israel but the regime is Israel itself is not committed to the eradication of the Palestinian people. C. If you believe the Isreali state is committed to eradicating the Palestinians then it is consistent to expect the West to withdraw support. D. However the the consequence is the eradication of the state of Israel and the genocide of the Jews in Israel. If their are posters on here who take this view not a single on of them has been honest about the consequences of that position. The US and the UK position as I understand it is: 1 To support the right of Isreal to exist. Which means providing miltary support to defend itself from those that would eradicate the state of Israel. 2 To support the rights of the Palestinian people in their right to self determination and condemning Isreal when it goes too far in its war with Hamas and continuing land grab in the north. They are doing this in of diplomatic efforts with other to bring about a two state solution. The stance is inherently ambiguous. Forcing this into a binary choice of either fully backing Isreal (which isn't what is happening) or fully withdrawing support from Isreal (which would lead to its eradication) would make matters worse for one side or the other, A. The Rethtoric of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are no different to that previously expressed by Saudi Arabia, Egyptian or Jordan the latter two who fought a recent War with Israel and the former being supplied with Military Equipment and Training by UK and US, in exchange for Oil obviously. The difference in this Rethtoric and Israel's is that even Iran doesn't have the Military Capability while Israel does B. You must have been hiding under a rock not to have read Israeli Politicians calling for the annihilation of Gaza including via a Nuclear Strike www.newarab.com/analysis/erase-gaza-how-genocidal-rhetoric-normalised-israelwww.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.htmlwww.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-minister-calls-for-utter-destruction-of-gaza-strip/3206544www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240619-far-right-israeli-politician-calls-for-wiping-out-gaza/www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/6/18/israeli-politician-quotes-hitler-talks-of-wiping-out-gazaC. If they are not committed now they are doing a hell of a job with Millions expelled as Refugees D. I don't accept your premise, it's not a zero sum game. I don't think it's appropriate to question the honesty of posters, people believe what they believe, you do not have a monopoly of what is correct, you have an opinion perhaps different to some. 1. The right of Israel to exist is not contested, what it's boundaries should be are. Again you are making a case that I dispute. If there was a Two State Solution, which you favour, it can't exist if Israel has an overwhelming Military advantage "to wipe Palestine off the Map" unless there is an International commitment to intervene if it does try incursions. 2. Those Diplomatic efforts are not working while US continues to Veto. Frustration then spawn Organizations like Hamas. 3. Of course US and UK are fully backing Israel asking for restraint by Israel and not receiving it is nonsensical and again you repeat a premise I disagree with
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2024 14:07:28 GMT
The caller is arguing his point from a position of ignorance and that's why it's so easy for O'brien to tie him up in knots. Very near to the end, he resorts to saying that Hamas started it, which so much of his argument was predicated on. Can you imagine the outcry from Washington (and indeed the rest of the world), if, during the Northen Irish 'troubles', the UK government had bombed the whole of Derry back to the Stoneage ...
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Israel
Oct 7, 2024 14:10:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2024 14:10:36 GMT
A. I don't understand the point you are making. Hezbollah, Hamas and the current regime in Iran are committed to the destruction of the state of Israel. B. There are hardliners in the Israeli government hell bent on removing the Palestinians from Israel but the regime is Israel itself is not committed to the eradication of the Palestinian people. C. If you believe the Isreali state is committed to eradicating the Palestinians then it is consistent to expect the West to withdraw support. D. However the the consequence is the eradication of the state of Israel and the genocide of the Jews in Israel. If their are posters on here who take this view not a single on of them has been honest about the consequences of that position. The US and the UK position as I understand it is: 1 To support the right of Isreal to exist. Which means providing miltary support to defend itself from those that would eradicate the state of Israel. 2 To support the rights of the Palestinian people in their right to self determination and condemning Isreal when it goes too far in its war with Hamas and continuing land grab in the north. They are doing this in of diplomatic efforts with other to bring about a two state solution. The stance is inherently ambiguous. Forcing this into a binary choice of either fully backing Isreal (which isn't what is happening) or fully withdrawing support from Isreal (which would lead to its eradication) would make matters worse for one side or the other, A. The Rethtoric of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are no different to that previously expressed by Saudi Arabia, Egyptian or Jordan the latter two who fought a recent War with Israel and the former being supplied with Military Equipment and Training by UK and US, in exchange for Oil obviously. The difference in this Rethtoric and Israel's is that even Iran doesn't have the Military Capability while Israel does B. You must have been hiding under a rock not to have read Israeli Politicians calling for the annihilation of Gaza including via a Nuclear Strike www.newarab.com/analysis/erase-gaza-how-genocidal-rhetoric-normalised-israelwww.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.htmlwww.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-minister-calls-for-utter-destruction-of-gaza-strip/3206544www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240619-far-right-israeli-politician-calls-for-wiping-out-gaza/www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/6/18/israeli-politician-quotes-hitler-talks-of-wiping-out-gazaC. If they are not committed now they are doing a hell of a job with Millions expelled as Refugees D. I don't accept your premise, it's not a zero sum game. I don't think it's appropriate to question the honesty of posters, people believe what they believe, you do not have a monopoly of what is correct, you have an opinion perhaps different to some. 1. The right of Israel to exist is not contested, what it's boundaries should be are. Again you are making a case that I dispute. If there was a Two State Solution, which you favour, it can't exist if Israel has an overwhelming Military advantage "to wipe Palestine off the Map" unless there is an International commitment to intervene if it does try incursions. 2. Those Diplomatic efforts are not working while US continues to Veto. Frustration then spawn Organizations like Hamas. 3. Of course US and UK are fully backing Israel asking for restraint by Israel and not receiving it is nonsensical and again you repeat a premise I disagree with An excellent post.
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Israel
Oct 7, 2024 15:25:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Oct 7, 2024 15:25:06 GMT
So, a two state solution is now a figment of the imagination. This war will run and run until one of the two sides, Zionism or extreme Islamic Jihad, comes out on top. OS. Or when some third nation puts a nuclear bomb or two in the sandbox. I have thought about that for a while. What would happen then? USA. Russia. India. France. China.
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Israel
Oct 7, 2024 16:31:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 7, 2024 16:31:08 GMT
A. I don't understand the point you are making. Hezbollah, Hamas and the current regime in Iran are committed to the destruction of the state of Israel. B. There are hardliners in the Israeli government hell bent on removing the Palestinians from Israel but the regime is Israel itself is not committed to the eradication of the Palestinian people. C. If you believe the Isreali state is committed to eradicating the Palestinians then it is consistent to expect the West to withdraw support. D. However the the consequence is the eradication of the state of Israel and the genocide of the Jews in Israel. If their are posters on here who take this view not a single on of them has been honest about the consequences of that position. The US and the UK position as I understand it is: 1 To support the right of Isreal to exist. Which means providing miltary support to defend itself from those that would eradicate the state of Israel. 2 To support the rights of the Palestinian people in their right to self determination and condemning Isreal when it goes too far in its war with Hamas and continuing land grab in the north. They are doing this in of diplomatic efforts with other to bring about a two state solution. The stance is inherently ambiguous. Forcing this into a binary choice of either fully backing Isreal (which isn't what is happening) or fully withdrawing support from Isreal (which would lead to its eradication) would make matters worse for one side or the other, A. The Rethtoric of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are no different to that previously expressed by Saudi Arabia, Egyptian or Jordan the latter two who fought a recent War with Israel and the former being supplied with Military Equipment and Training by UK and US, in exchange for Oil obviously. The difference in this Rethtoric and Israel's is that even Iran doesn't have the Military Capability while Israel does B. You must have been hiding under a rock not to have read Israeli Politicians calling for the annihilation of Gaza including via a Nuclear Strike www.newarab.com/analysis/erase-gaza-how-genocidal-rhetoric-normalised-israelwww.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.htmlwww.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-minister-calls-for-utter-destruction-of-gaza-strip/3206544www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240619-far-right-israeli-politician-calls-for-wiping-out-gaza/www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/6/18/israeli-politician-quotes-hitler-talks-of-wiping-out-gazaC. If they are not committed now they are doing a hell of a job with Millions expelled as Refugees D. I don't accept your premise, it's not a zero sum game. I don't think it's appropriate to question the honesty of posters, people believe what they believe, you do not have a monopoly of what is correct, you have an opinion perhaps different to some. 1. The right of Israel to exist is not contested, what it's boundaries should be are. Again you are making a case that I dispute. If there was a Two State Solution, which you favour, it can't exist if Israel has an overwhelming Military advantage "to wipe Palestine off the Map" unless there is an International commitment to intervene if it does try incursions. 2. Those Diplomatic efforts are not working while US continues to Veto. Frustration then spawn Organizations like Hamas. 3. Of course US and UK are fully backing Israel asking for restraint by Israel and not receiving it is nonsensical and again you repeat a premise I disagree with A What Iran and its proxies are doing goes way beyond rhetoric. They are killing people. Their stated intention is the eradication of the state of Isreal - and by that they mean the eradication of all Jews from the area. B I am not denying that there are some Isreali politicians who are calling for the eradication of the Palestinian people. I just completely reject the idea that I must see the situation as the good guys against the bad guys. It's the utter bastards against the utter bastards with innocent civilians stuck in the middle. C What Isreal is doing in Gaza is appalling and I have said so on here on many occasions. It's utter bollocks to accuse me of turning a blind eye tobthe atrocities committed by the Isreali government simply because I refuse to see the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah as the misunderstood good guys fighting the good fight. They aren't- they are as vicious and evil as those committing atrocities in Gaza and given half a chance would do the same to innocent Jewish citizens of Isreal. D Yes I have an opinion and if people aren't being honest about the consequences of the West withdrawing support for Isreal they are being nieve about the consequences. Given the chance Hezbollah, Hamas and the current Iranian regime would slaughter the Jews in Isreal. Their end game is not an harmonious multi ethnic single state. 1 The right of Isreal to exist is being contested by Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. The issue is that you and others are refusing to acknowledge that fact. I am not favouring a two state solution as a point of principle, I'm favouring it for the practical reason that it is the only one on the table. A viable two state solution has to involve the mutual recognotion and an understanding of the consequences of any incursions. 2 I agree the US could do more to put pressure on the Isreali government but even if they did Hamas is not simply going to disappear. 3 You dont have to accept my premise and I don't have to accept yours. The US and UK backing for the right of Isreal to exist IS unconditional and they continue to unconditionally support Isreal in this sense because the threat to their eradication is very real. You don't get that because you don't believe that threat is real and I do. The US and UK backing for the actions that Isrral take IS NOT unconditional and they have been publicly critical of Isreal's actions and applied pressure on the Isreali government. I agree they could do more but I don't agree they are just unconditionally supporting whatever the Isreali government do.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 7, 2024 16:46:53 GMT
A. The Rethtoric of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are no different to that previously expressed by Saudi Arabia, Egyptian or Jordan the latter two who fought a recent War with Israel and the former being supplied with Military Equipment and Training by UK and US, in exchange for Oil obviously. The difference in this Rethtoric and Israel's is that even Iran doesn't have the Military Capability while Israel does B. You must have been hiding under a rock not to have read Israeli Politicians calling for the annihilation of Gaza including via a Nuclear Strike www.newarab.com/analysis/erase-gaza-how-genocidal-rhetoric-normalised-israelwww.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.htmlwww.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-minister-calls-for-utter-destruction-of-gaza-strip/3206544www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240619-far-right-israeli-politician-calls-for-wiping-out-gaza/www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/6/18/israeli-politician-quotes-hitler-talks-of-wiping-out-gazaC. If they are not committed now they are doing a hell of a job with Millions expelled as Refugees D. I don't accept your premise, it's not a zero sum game. I don't think it's appropriate to question the honesty of posters, people believe what they believe, you do not have a monopoly of what is correct, you have an opinion perhaps different to some. 1. The right of Israel to exist is not contested, what it's boundaries should be are. Again you are making a case that I dispute. If there was a Two State Solution, which you favour, it can't exist if Israel has an overwhelming Military advantage "to wipe Palestine off the Map" unless there is an International commitment to intervene if it does try incursions. 2. Those Diplomatic efforts are not working while US continues to Veto. Frustration then spawn Organizations like Hamas. 3. Of course US and UK are fully backing Israel asking for restraint by Israel and not receiving it is nonsensical and again you repeat a premise I disagree with A What Iran and its proxies are doing goes way beyond rhetoric. They are killing people. Their stated intention is the eradication of the state of Isreal - and by that they mean the eradication of all Jews from the area. B I am not denying that there are some Isreali politicians who are calling for the eradication of the Palestinian people. I just completely reject the idea that I must see the situation as the good guys against the bad guys. It's the utter bastards against the utter bastards with innocent civilians stuck in the middle. C What Isreal is doing in Gaza is appalling and I have said so on here on many occasions. It's utter bollocks to accuse me of turning a blind eye tobthe atrocities committed by the Isreali government simply because I refuse to see the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah as the misunderstood good guys fighting the good fight. They aren't- they are as vicious and evil as those committing atrocities in Gaza and given half a chance would do the same to innocent Jewish citizens of Isreal. D Yes I have an opinion and if people aren't being honest about the consequences of the West withdrawing support for Isreal they are being nieve about the consequences. Given the chance Hezbollah, Hamas and the current Iranian regime would slaughter the Jews in Isreal. Their end game is not an harmonious multi ethnic single state. 1 The right of Isreal to exist is being contested by Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. The issue is that you and others are refusing to acknowledge that fact. I am not favouring a two state solution as a point of principle, I'm favouring it for the practical reason that it is the only one on the table. A viable two state solution has to involve the mutual recognotion and an understanding of the consequences of any incursions. 2 I agree the US could do more to put pressure on the Isreali government but even if they did Hamas is not simply going to disappear. 3 You dont have to accept my premise and I don't have to accept yours. The US and UK backing for the right of Isreal to exist IS unconditional and they continue to unconditionally support Isreal in this sense because the threat to their eradication is very real. You don't get that because you don't believe that threat is real and I do. The US and UK backing for the actions that Isrral take IS NOT unconditional and they have been publicly critical of Isreal's actions and applied pressure on the Isreali government. I agree they could do more but I don't agree they are just unconditionally supporting whatever the Isreali government do. You honestly think the UK and USA have applied pressure on the Israeli government? They just ignore the meaningless platitudes spouted from both sides of the Atlantic and carry on regardless. Just out of interest if you are so adamant the state of Iran would eradicate all Jews in a heartbeat, why are the 8,000 estimated Jews that have remained in Iran to this day not been forced out or worse?
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Post by gawa on Oct 7, 2024 17:05:53 GMT
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Israel
Oct 7, 2024 18:01:07 GMT
Post by OldStokie on Oct 7, 2024 18:01:07 GMT
So, a two state solution is now a figment of the imagination. This war will run and run until one of the two sides, Zionism or extreme Islamic Jihad, comes out on top. OS. Or when some third nation puts a nuclear bomb or two in the sandbox. I have thought about that for a while. What would happen then? USA. Russia. India. France. China. Musik, there doesn't have to be a "third nation". Israel is a nuclear power and as a last resort if it looks like they're going to lose this war, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they'll use them. People keep calling for an embargo on weapons supply to Israel. Should that happen then the the scenario I've explained is much more likely to happen. This is why the US are warning that the situation could get 'out of control'. They're looking at the bigger picture if everything goes tits up. OS.
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Israel
Oct 7, 2024 18:06:03 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Oct 7, 2024 18:06:03 GMT
Or when some third nation puts a nuclear bomb or two in the sandbox. I have thought about that for a while. What would happen then? USA. Russia. India. France. China. Musik, there doesn't have to be a "third nation". Israel is a nuclear power and as a last resort if it looks like they're going to lose this war, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they'll use them. People keep calling for an embargo on weapons supply to Israel. Should that happen then the the scenario I've explained is much more likely to happen. This is why the US are warning that the situation could get 'out of control'. They're looking at the bigger picture if everything goes tits up. OS. Ok. Let's say Israel do that. What will happen then? Who will punish them? And in this case let's assume they don't drop one on themselves.
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Israel
Oct 7, 2024 18:16:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Oct 7, 2024 18:16:58 GMT
Now on Swe tv "One year with war in the Middle East"
They've shown the terrorists raid into Israel a year from now when the war started and when innocent civilians, kids and youngsters at a music festival were killed, they say. The terrorists shouted death to jews in those movies and mentioned how great God is.
It was a totally unprovocative attack out of nowhere that took everyone by surprise. Hard to explain, according to the presentators.
Now the tv host says, what are facts, what are fake. One of the tv's main tasks. Satellite pictures now. Verification.
It was said Israel had blown up water works with reservoirs (27/7). If so it was against International law.
Now a Middle East expert says the war is likely to end soon. And the situation in Gaza is dreadful with two million desperate people.
Now a female expert says it's not Israel who shall decide what will happen in Gaza, it's the Arabic states thing to decide.
TV host: how likely is a two nation solution? Male expert: not likely. What will guarantee Israel's security? Female expert: difficult, will the Arab states guarantee?
Male expert: gloomy state.
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Post by OldStokie on Oct 7, 2024 18:31:07 GMT
Musik, there doesn't have to be a "third nation". Israel is a nuclear power and as a last resort if it looks like they're going to lose this war, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they'll use them. People keep calling for an embargo on weapons supply to Israel. Should that happen then the the scenario I've explained is much more likely to happen. This is why the US are warning that the situation could get 'out of control'. They're looking at the bigger picture if everything goes tits up. OS. Ok. Let's say Israel do that. What will happen then?That's the million dollar question. One thing is certain; the price of oil will go through the roof and affect the whole world. Poorer countries would become destitute and hundreds of millions of people would be on the move to escape that destitution. But what do I know? I'm an ignorant old sod on a football message board so you'll have to work the rest out yourself. CBUFAWKIPWH said I was a pessimist. I'm not. I'm a realist trying to understand the bigger picture of all this chaos. Better minds than me are unsure of what the future holds. At the moment it's all about opinions but at some point there will have to be a conclusion. OS.
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Post by musik on Oct 7, 2024 18:51:11 GMT
Ok. Let's say Israel do that. What will happen then?That's the million dollar question. One thing is certain; the price of oil will go through the roof and affect the whole world. Poorer countries would become destitute and hundreds of millions of people would be on the move to escape that destitution. But what do I know? I'm an ignorant old sod on a football message board so you'll have to work the rest out yourself. CBUFAWKIPWH said I was a pessimist. I'm not. I'm a realist trying to understand the bigger picture of all this chaos. Better minds than me are unsure of what the future holds. At the moment it's all about opinions but at some point there will have to be a conclusion. OS. I'm a realist too and I don't believe you can mix jews, muslims and christians in the same territory, like someone suggested in this thread. I have a hard time finding successful examples of that, at least these days. Often it's a BIG mistake. Therefore they should be in different states. If you ask me personally I have no problem with anybody, but people aren't ready so why continue with those experiments - when people are so fanatic. Now on TV, a reportage interviewing people on both sides ... Interesting. A sandbox with some roads. You can almost feel the hate from both sides!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2024 19:59:28 GMT
Oh, imagine that ...
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Post by Han Solo on Oct 7, 2024 20:57:51 GMT
Is there a more arrogant man on the radio
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 7, 2024 21:01:44 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Oct 7, 2024 23:36:04 GMT
A. The Rethtoric of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are no different to that previously expressed by Saudi Arabia, Egyptian or Jordan the latter two who fought a recent War with Israel and the former being supplied with Military Equipment and Training by UK and US, in exchange for Oil obviously. The difference in this Rethtoric and Israel's is that even Iran doesn't have the Military Capability while Israel does B. You must have been hiding under a rock not to have read Israeli Politicians calling for the annihilation of Gaza including via a Nuclear Strike www.newarab.com/analysis/erase-gaza-how-genocidal-rhetoric-normalised-israelwww.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.htmlwww.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-minister-calls-for-utter-destruction-of-gaza-strip/3206544www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240619-far-right-israeli-politician-calls-for-wiping-out-gaza/www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/6/18/israeli-politician-quotes-hitler-talks-of-wiping-out-gazaC. If they are not committed now they are doing a hell of a job with Millions expelled as Refugees D. I don't accept your premise, it's not a zero sum game. I don't think it's appropriate to question the honesty of posters, people believe what they believe, you do not have a monopoly of what is correct, you have an opinion perhaps different to some. 1. The right of Israel to exist is not contested, what it's boundaries should be are. Again you are making a case that I dispute. If there was a Two State Solution, which you favour, it can't exist if Israel has an overwhelming Military advantage "to wipe Palestine off the Map" unless there is an International commitment to intervene if it does try incursions. 2. Those Diplomatic efforts are not working while US continues to Veto. Frustration then spawn Organizations like Hamas. 3. Of course US and UK are fully backing Israel asking for restraint by Israel and not receiving it is nonsensical and again you repeat a premise I disagree with A What Iran and its proxies are doing goes way beyond rhetoric. They are killing people. Their stated intention is the eradication of the state of Isreal - and by that they mean the eradication of all Jews from the area. B I am not denying that there are some Isreali politicians who are calling for the eradication of the Palestinian people. I just completely reject the idea that I must see the situation as the good guys against the bad guys. It's the utter bastards against the utter bastards with innocent civilians stuck in the middle. C What Isreal is doing in Gaza is appalling and I have said so on here on many occasions. It's utter bollocks to accuse me of turning a blind eye tobthe atrocities committed by the Isreali government simply because I refuse to see the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah as the misunderstood good guys fighting the good fight. They aren't- they are as vicious and evil as those committing atrocities in Gaza and given half a chance would do the same to innocent Jewish citizens of Isreal. D Yes I have an opinion and if people aren't being honest about the consequences of the West withdrawing support for Isreal they are being nieve about the consequences. Given the chance Hezbollah, Hamas and the current Iranian regime would slaughter the Jews in Isreal. Their end game is not an harmonious multi ethnic single state. 1 The right of Isreal to exist is being contested by Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. The issue is that you and others are refusing to acknowledge that fact. I am not favouring a two state solution as a point of principle, I'm favouring it for the practical reason that it is the only one on the table. A viable two state solution has to involve the mutual recognotion and an understanding of the consequences of any incursions. 2 I agree the US could do more to put pressure on the Isreali government but even if they did Hamas is not simply going to disappear. 3 You dont have to accept my premise and I don't have to accept yours. The US and UK backing for the right of Isreal to exist IS unconditional and they continue to unconditionally support Isreal in this sense because the threat to their eradication is very real. You don't get that because you don't believe that threat is real and I do. The US and UK backing for the actions that Isrral take IS NOT unconditional and they have been publicly critical of Isreal's actions and applied pressure on the Isreali government. I agree they could do more but I don't agree they are just unconditionally supporting whatever the Isreali government do. A. Of course it is but they have no means to do so therefore its Rhetoric. I don't deny Hamas, Hezbolah and Iran Kill people but not on an Industrial scale like Israel B. At least you have revised your previous denial that there are elements within the Israeli Parliament that have and are calling for the utter annihilation of Gaza. Of course its Bastards against Bastards, who said otherwise? Those that suffer most are the civilians in Gaza and to a lesser extent Israel C. Who has accused you of turning a blind eye to Israeli atrocities and who the fuck has ever said Hamas and/or Hezbollah are good guys, misunderstood or not? D. You are the only one introducing honesty of opinion. I have no doubt you hold your opinion honesty I just don't honestly agree with it. There is no high ground to be gained here. I doubt if anyone would disagree that given the opportunity Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran would slaughter the Jews in Israel but therein lies the rub, they don't have the opportunity and therefore we're back to my old friend Rhetoric. 1. Now you are straying off the Reservation. Even the post you are replying to I said Israel has a right to exist. I said the Israeli borders are disputed which is an entirely different thing. You need to be more precise in your use of language before you start throwing around false accusations 2. I can agree with this. Realistically the Palestinians are the only ones that can make Hamas disappear which at the rate Israel is notching up Martyrs might take a while. 3. Of course we don't have to accept each others opinions but I do accept that US and UK unconditionally accept Israels right to exist. I see no problem in that position and support it. I do not accept that the US and UKs unconditional support of Israel is because of a threat of eradication, its not a question of whether I don't "get it" and you do, we simply have a difference of opinion. We also have a difference of opinion on whether US and UK unconditionally support Isreal. My contention is that it's public pronouncements are tepid and mealy mouthed. Consider that UK Government withdrew some Export Licences on Legal Advice because they could have aided War Crimes. If a condition of War Crimes potentially exists do you think the US and UKs actions are sufficiently strong taken together with the ICJ Interim ruling that it is Plausible that Israel carried out acts of Genocide in Gaza?
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Israel
Oct 8, 2024 9:22:29 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 8, 2024 9:22:29 GMT
I do not accept that the US and UKs unconditional support of Israel is because of a threat of eradication
Israel is essentially at the right hand of Western power in the Middle East and the Islamic world. The Arab view is that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, and is therefore used by the West to ensure that the Islamic world remains weakened. This strategy has been evident throughout history, from the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, and Sudan, to the current open war with Iran. All of these are part of a systematic and calculated Western effort to weaken the Islamic world.
The pro-Israeli view is that countries surrounding Israel (like Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and even Gulf states like the UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and others) will never be considered true friends of Israel. Compounding that is the fact (yes, fact) that Iran openly backs groups across the Middle East – which it calls the ‘axis of resistance’ – which consistently espouse the view that they want to eradicate Israel from the region. Hamas and Hezbollah repeatedly threaten and attack Israel in the name of eradication, including the Houthis in Yemen, and groups in Syria and Iraq, which Israel deems to be an existential threat. Whilst Iran's regional goals are largely driven by regime security, Iran is ultimately trying to exploit sentiment against Israel, while staving off a broader Israeli response.
Both stances have elements of accuracy about them. Both sides have legitimate grievances.
US and UK unconditionally support Isreal...Do you think the US' and UK's actions are sufficiently strong taken together with the ICJ Interim ruling that it is Plausible that Israel carried out acts of Genocide in Gaza?
UK support for Israel is evidently not unconditional. UK's response is proportional. US support is not unconditional either (under a Democrat Presidency, at least). The US will always back entities which defend democracy and the right to freedom as it perceives it, which is why the US is currently struggling to support Israel if it (Netanyahu) won't accept that both a two-state solution and a peace process needs to be engaged. In fact, if Netanyahu carries on in this vein and the Democrats are re-elected, my own view is that we should safely presume that US governmental support for Israel will begin to wain and instead manifest itself in a huge push for a peace process in the New Year (once the US Presidential election is over and done with).
The problem, to this extent, is not about UK or US support for Israel, but it is two-fold; Iran and Netanyahu.
It's misguided to refer to the interim ruling of the ICJ. The ICJ did not rule whether Israel had committed genocide. The ICJ decided that Palestinians in Gaza had plausible rights under the Genocide convention, and moreover said that those rights were at risk of irreparable damage. It said Israel should take steps to prevent genocide from occurring. The ICJ simply accepted, as a matter of abstract law, that the inhabitants of Gaza had a right not to be subjected to genocide - which I would suggest is beyond question. To quote the ICJ:
"The Court...only need decide whether the rights claimed by South Africa, and for which it is seeking protection, are plausible. In the Court’s view, the facts and circumstances... are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible.”
The ICJ did not rule whether Israel had committed genocide in Gaza.
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Post by dutchstokie on Oct 8, 2024 10:13:39 GMT
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 8, 2024 11:17:49 GMT
A What Iran and its proxies are doing goes way beyond rhetoric. They are killing people. Their stated intention is the eradication of the state of Isreal - and by that they mean the eradication of all Jews from the area. B I am not denying that there are some Isreali politicians who are calling for the eradication of the Palestinian people. I just completely reject the idea that I must see the situation as the good guys against the bad guys. It's the utter bastards against the utter bastards with innocent civilians stuck in the middle. C What Isreal is doing in Gaza is appalling and I have said so on here on many occasions. It's utter bollocks to accuse me of turning a blind eye tobthe atrocities committed by the Isreali government simply because I refuse to see the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah as the misunderstood good guys fighting the good fight. They aren't- they are as vicious and evil as those committing atrocities in Gaza and given half a chance would do the same to innocent Jewish citizens of Isreal. D Yes I have an opinion and if people aren't being honest about the consequences of the West withdrawing support for Isreal they are being nieve about the consequences. Given the chance Hezbollah, Hamas and the current Iranian regime would slaughter the Jews in Isreal. Their end game is not an harmonious multi ethnic single state. 1 The right of Isreal to exist is being contested by Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. The issue is that you and others are refusing to acknowledge that fact. I am not favouring a two state solution as a point of principle, I'm favouring it for the practical reason that it is the only one on the table. A viable two state solution has to involve the mutual recognotion and an understanding of the consequences of any incursions. 2 I agree the US could do more to put pressure on the Isreali government but even if they did Hamas is not simply going to disappear. 3 You dont have to accept my premise and I don't have to accept yours. The US and UK backing for the right of Isreal to exist IS unconditional and they continue to unconditionally support Isreal in this sense because the threat to their eradication is very real. You don't get that because you don't believe that threat is real and I do. The US and UK backing for the actions that Isrral take IS NOT unconditional and they have been publicly critical of Isreal's actions and applied pressure on the Isreali government. I agree they could do more but I don't agree they are just unconditionally supporting whatever the Isreali government do. A. Of course it is but they have no means to do so therefore its Rhetoric. I don't deny Hamas, Hezbolah and Iran Kill people but not on an Industrial scale like Israel I'm sorry - Hamas killing and kidnapping Isreali civilians and the bombs fired at Isreal by Iran and Hezbolah is "rhetoric"? They may not be able to do it on an industrial scale but given the chance they would and if the West withdraw there support for Israel that is exactly what would happen.B. At least you have revised your previous denial that there are elements within the Israeli Parliament that have and are calling for the utter annihilation of Gaza. Of course its Bastards against Bastards, who said otherwise? Those that suffer most are the civilians in Gaza and to a lesser extent Israel I have never denied there are elements within the Israeli Parliament that have and are calling for the utter annihilation of Gaza. Kindly stop putting words into my mouth.C. Who has accused you of turning a blind eye to Israeli atrocities and who the fuck has ever said Hamas and/or Hezbollah are good guys, misunderstood or not? You did just - in point B above!D. You are the only one introducing honesty of opinion. I have no doubt you hold your opinion honesty I just don't honestly agree with it. There is no high ground to be gained here. I doubt if anyone would disagree that given the opportunity Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran would slaughter the Jews in Israel but therein lies the rub, they don't have the opportunity and therefore we're back to my old friend Rhetoric. Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are not bombing Isreal with Rhetoric. They are bombing them with actual bombs.1. Now you are straying off the Reservation. Even the post you are replying to I said Israel has a right to exist. I said the Israeli borders are disputed which is an entirely different thing. You need to be more precise in your use of language before you start throwing around false accusations I'm sorry - I have to be careful? I did not say you and other were denying that Israel has a right to exist. I am saying that some people are denyiing that Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are saying Israel do not have a right to exist. 2. I can agree with this. Realistically the Palestinians are the only ones that can make Hamas disappear which at the rate Israel is notching up Martyrs might take a while. OK3. Of course we don't have to accept each others opinions but I do accept that US and UK unconditionally accept Israels right to exist. I see no problem in that position and support it. OKI do not accept that the US and UKs unconditional support of Israel is because of a threat of eradication, its not a question of whether I don't "get it" and you do, we simply have a difference of opinion. We also have a difference of opinion on whether US and UK unconditionally support Isreal. My contention is that it's public pronouncements are tepid and mealy mouthed. Consider that UK Government withdrew some Export Licences on Legal Advice because they could have aided War Crimes. If a condition of War Crimes potentially exists do you think the US and UKs actions are sufficiently strong taken together with the ICJ Interim ruling that it is Plausible that Israel carried out acts of Genocide in Gaza? I don't think you have understood my point. There are 2 aspects to the support provided by the US and the UK:
1 The right of Israel to exist. This is unconditional.
2 The actions Israel take to preserve their existence. This is conditional - and even if the response is " tepid and mealy mouthed" this demostrates it is conditional. And no I don't think they have gone far enough in sanctioning Israel for their actions.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 8, 2024 17:34:21 GMT
Hezbollah are going through leaders like Stoke do manager's.
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Post by Davef on Oct 8, 2024 17:49:45 GMT
Hezbollah are going through leaders like Stoke do manager's. They don't get the compo though. 😊
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 8, 2024 17:55:37 GMT
Hezbollah are going through leaders like Stoke do manager's. And let’s hope they continue to take the murdering terrorist bastards out one by one if that’s what it takes
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Israel
Oct 8, 2024 18:49:23 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 8, 2024 18:49:23 GMT
Hezbollah are going through leaders like Stoke do manager's. And let’s hope they continue to take the murdering terrorist bastards out one by one if that’s what it takes Hezbollah, not Stoke’s ex managers, presumably.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 8, 2024 18:52:28 GMT
And let’s hope they continue to take the murdering terrorist bastards out one by one if that’s what it takes Hezbollah, not Stoke’s ex managers, presumably. Correct😊
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 8, 2024 18:53:00 GMT
And let’s hope they continue to take the murdering terrorist bastards out one by one if that’s what it takes Hezbollah, not Stoke’s ex managers, presumably. Dunno there was definitely something sinister about Nathan Jones and he is very religious
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Oct 9, 2024 10:57:31 GMT
Starting to look very similar to their operation in Gaza. Is there anything that would stop our support of them because, at the moment, they continue to act with complete impunity. More so each passing day. 1.2m people estimated to have been displaced in Lebanon, with Netanyahu putting the responsibility back onto the Lebanese people to rise up against Hezbollah. Disgusting.
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Post by scfcno1fan on Oct 9, 2024 13:22:26 GMT
Starting to look very similar to their operation in Gaza. Is there anything that would stop our support of them because, at the moment, they continue to act with complete impunity. More so each passing day. 1.2m people estimated to have been displaced in Lebanon, with Netanyahu putting the responsibility back onto the Lebanese people to rise up against Hezbollah. Disgusting. Yep. Incredibly similar. When will the wider support for Israel end?
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