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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 9, 2024 15:40:56 GMT
I trust that this journo has decent life insurance in place for his family ...
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Post by gawa on Oct 9, 2024 16:06:33 GMT
An excellent video on Iran I recommend watching
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 9, 2024 16:27:23 GMT
Fairly apt with the threat of nuclear war upon us but for anyone interested Threads is on tonight (only the 4th time it's aired in 40 years). Horrifying dystopian vision for the future? Threads (1984)
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Israel
Oct 9, 2024 16:33:10 GMT
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Post by Han Solo on Oct 9, 2024 16:33:10 GMT
Fairly apt with the threat of nuclear war upon us but for anyone interested Threads is on tonight (only the 4th time it's aired in 40 years). Horrifying dystopian vision for the future? Threads (1984)I think I’ll stick to more cheerful fayre and watch the cricket highlights. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 9, 2024 16:45:25 GMT
Fairly apt with the threat of nuclear war upon us but for anyone interested Threads is on tonight (only the 4th time it's aired in 40 years). Horrifying dystopian vision for the future? Threads (1984)I think I’ll stick to more cheerful fayre and watch the cricket highlights. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. I dunno, the highlights will be very thin on the ground after another ultra boring day of road cricket
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Israel
Oct 9, 2024 18:24:07 GMT
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Oct 9, 2024 18:24:07 GMT
Now attacking Lebanese water supply, affecting their food production.
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Post by roylandstoke on Oct 9, 2024 18:36:35 GMT
Now attacking Lebanese water supply, affecting their food production. Israel has invaded Lebanon with total impunity. USA actually seems to be encouraging this invasion. I don’t understand why the civilised world has not imposed severe sanctions on the terrorist government of Israel.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Oct 9, 2024 19:14:30 GMT
Fairly apt with the threat of nuclear war upon us but for anyone interested Threads is on tonight (only the 4th time it's aired in 40 years). Horrifying dystopian vision for the future? Threads (1984)Not for a second I don't think but Threads was and still is a great piece of TV. Seem to remember the mother from Early Doors is in it, Schools had to watch it around 1986 think it was, can't remember our class ever being so quiet. Was grim I saw recently they tried and succeeded in tracking down the traffic warden used on the DVD cover on some releases . He was just an extra .
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Israel
Oct 9, 2024 21:19:35 GMT
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 9, 2024 21:19:35 GMT
Not relevant to Israel per se but just been watching City of Ghosts on Prime. Fascinating watch and follows the brave young guys who were part of the activist group "Raqqa is being slaughtered silently". Shows in graphic detail the horror that unfolded when Isis took over Raqqa and how difficult it was to report on what was happening without being taken out. The footage of the daily slaughtering in the town Square... Truly evil.
In much the same way, there will be heroes on all sides of this terrible war in the middle east that is taking place before our eyes and many of them will not be able to get their story out there.
I don't believe there is a terrorist group in our lifetime that comes close to what Isis did. The actions of Hamas on 7th October were right up there as one of the worst terrorist attacks of our lives but for Isis, beheading, torture and public executions was merely a day at work. The way they celebrated the gruesome murder of innocent civilians was so disgusting.
Anyway, a slight digression but well worth a watch 👍
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 9, 2024 23:15:52 GMT
Fairly apt with the threat of nuclear war upon us but for anyone interested Threads is on tonight (only the 4th time it's aired in 40 years). Horrifying dystopian vision for the future? Threads (1984)Well I watched it and can confirm it was as depressing and traumatic as the last time......
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 10, 2024 8:32:28 GMT
One state with a civil rights movement is a concept I got from Palestinians and it's what made me question the ubiquitous nature of two state solution in the political and media class. No one is pushing it in mainstream , but I wish they were. Even just as an alternative to the two state and ongoing occupation/ annexation. Israel has been on a path under Neteyahu of destroying the two state solution, but with a view to a different goal than a democratic one state. Even the idea calls his bluff. Fully annex or leave. Dies the lack of media reporting on a one state solution reflect the lack of activity in support of it? Is there an organised group proposing this solution and do they have international backing? As I said there is nothing wrong in principle about this solution my concern would be the weight of backing to adopt it as a solution. Not as far as Im aware, that's my frustration. For reasons that either unimaginative, idealistic or disingenuous. It's the reality on the ground (Israel has occupied for over half a century and made two states LESS possible in that time) and it's a lens that puts Israeli claims to be a democracy in tatters. Which they should be. There has been commentary and analysis about Israel sleep walking to a one state solution over the years. But no organised pressure I'm aware of as yet.
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Israel
Oct 10, 2024 8:35:03 GMT
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 10, 2024 8:35:03 GMT
I don't understand the point you are making. Hezbollah, Hamas and the current regime in Iran are committed to the destruction of the state of Israel. There are hardliners in the Israeli government hell bent on removing the Palestinians from Israel but the regime is Israel itself is not committed to the eradication of the Palestinian people. If you believe the Isreali state is committed to eradicating the Palestinians then it is consistent to expect the West to withdraw support. However the the consequence is the eradication of the state of Israel and the genocide of the Jews in Israel. If their are posters on here who take this view not a single on of them has been honest about the consequences of that position. The US and the UK position as I understand it is: 1 To support the right of Isreal to exist. Which means providing miltary support to defend itself from those that would eradicate the state of Israel. 2 To support the rights of the Palestinian people in their right to self determination and condemning Isreal when it goes too far in its war with Hamas and continuing land grab in the north. They are doing this in of diplomatic efforts with other to bring about a two state solution. The stance is inherently ambiguous. Forcing this into a binary choice of either fully backing Isreal (which isn't what is happening) or fully withdrawing support from Isreal (which would lead to its eradication) would make matters worse for one side or the other, Destruction of the state of Israel can mean two things though can't it? An Israel being replaced by a state that is inclusive for Jews, Muslims, Christians alike (a one state solution essentially) is very different to wiping every Jew in Israel off the face of the planet. I don't believe that the latter is on the agenda from Iran, it may be in the eyes of Hamas and Hezbollah hard liners but as I've said previously, dialogue and quid pro quo agreements between all parties could soon soften that stance. The world is full of examples of neighbouring states/religious groups that were once trying to kill each other now living side by side. When you talk about "support" for Israel that shouldn't be come what may, and the only potential ethnic cleansing/genocide currently taking place is in Gaza not across the border.......... Exactly. One democratic state, sure call it Israel if its important. Just take ownership of the people as well as the land.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 10, 2024 9:52:49 GMT
Fairly apt with the threat of nuclear war upon us but for anyone interested Threads is on tonight (only the 4th time it's aired in 40 years). Horrifying dystopian vision for the future? Threads (1984)Well I watched it and can confirm it was as depressing and traumatic as the last time...... While there is no end game in sight to either the Russia/Ukraine war, Middle East and indeed, China/Taiwan. The threat of such a major escalation gets closer... By the day it seems. In any walk of life if you're going to have a successful outcome, you need to be able to see a tangible end game, a clear path to what you want to achieve - Which in this case should be peace. Right now there is absolutely no clear path to exit these miserable wars and frankly, there doesn't seem to be much appetite in the West to negotiate an end to them. It's quite literally a recipe for disaster.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 10, 2024 11:07:01 GMT
Well I watched it and can confirm it was as depressing and traumatic as the last time...... While there is no end game in sight to either the Russia/Ukraine war, Middle East and indeed, China/Taiwan. The threat of such a major escalation gets closer... By the day it seems. In any walk of life if you're going to have a successful outcome, you need to be able to see a tangible end game, a clear path to what you want to achieve - Which in this case should be peace. Right now there is absolutely no clear path to exit these miserable wars and frankly, there doesn't seem to be much appetite in the West to negotiate an end to them. It's quite literally a recipe for disaster. The conclusion I had from watching it is if there's a nuclear war and I survive I'll be jumping off the nearest bridge......
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 10, 2024 13:00:25 GMT
While there is no end game in sight to either the Russia/Ukraine war, Middle East and indeed, China/Taiwan. The threat of such a major escalation gets closer... By the day it seems. In any walk of life if you're going to have a successful outcome, you need to be able to see a tangible end game, a clear path to what you want to achieve - Which in this case should be peace. Right now there is absolutely no clear path to exit these miserable wars and frankly, there doesn't seem to be much appetite in the West to negotiate an end to them. It's quite literally a recipe for disaster. The conclusion I had from watching it is if there's a nuclear war and I survive I'll be jumping off the nearest bridge...... Yeah i think if shit gets nuclear you just have to hope you're killed in the immediate blast. Would a lovely thought. Fuck war.
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Israel
Oct 10, 2024 13:06:53 GMT
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 10, 2024 13:06:53 GMT
Destruction of the state of Israel can mean two things though can't it? An Israel being replaced by a state that is inclusive for Jews, Muslims, Christians alike (a one state solution essentially) is very different to wiping every Jew in Israel off the face of the planet. I don't believe that the latter is on the agenda from Iran, it may be in the eyes of Hamas and Hezbollah hard liners but as I've said previously, dialogue and quid pro quo agreements between all parties could soon soften that stance. The world is full of examples of neighbouring states/religious groups that were once trying to kill each other now living side by side. When you talk about "support" for Israel that shouldn't be come what may, and the only potential ethnic cleansing/genocide currently taking place is in Gaza not across the border.......... Exactly. One democratic state, sure call it Israel if its important. Just take ownership of the people as well as the land. That would be great but who is pushing that as a solution? The UN, the West, all the arab nations willing to recognise Isreal and the Palestinian people themselves are all calling for a two state solution. It all sounds lovely in principle but unless I'm missing something no one appears to be doing anything to bring this about on the ground.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 10, 2024 13:50:23 GMT
Exactly. One democratic state, sure call it Israel if its important. Just take ownership of the people as well as the land. That would be great but who is pushing that as a solution? The UN, the West, all the arab nations willing to recognise Isreal and the Palestinian people themselves are all calling for a two state solution. It all sounds lovely in principle but unless I'm missing something no one appears to be doing anything to bring this about on the ground. There are some Palestinian and other voices calling for it, I suspect more in exasperation than in conviction. You and I (not that we are relevant) discussed it, sometimes heartedly, some months back. I see it more as an outcome rather than a solution as de facto soon Israel will have total control of the land mass if it doesn't already. One State is anathema to Zionism so it becomes Apartheid. One State is a Marriage, Two State is an amicable Divorce. Mark Twain once said "Familiarity breeds contemt- and children " . Therein lies the problem of finding any solution which has been exacerbated by the acceleration of Settlements in the West Bank with Jews and Arabs living Cheek by Jowl but under a very different set of Laws. Getting Settlers to withdraw from the illegally controlled West Bank never mind to the 1967 Borders will be a monumental task while Zionist have any level of influence in Israel as their aim is to control the whole area, as they pretty much do now.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 10, 2024 14:37:46 GMT
That would be great but who is pushing that as a solution? The UN, the West, all the arab nations willing to recognise Isreal and the Palestinian people themselves are all calling for a two state solution. It all sounds lovely in principle but unless I'm missing something no one appears to be doing anything to bring this about on the ground. There are some Palestinian and other voices calling for it, I suspect more in exasperation than in conviction. You and I (not that we are relevant) discussed it, sometimes heartedly, some months back. I see it more as an outcome rather than a solution as de facto soon Israel will have total control of the land mass if it doesn't already. One State is anathema to Zionism so it becomes Apartheid. One State is a Marriage, Two State is an amicable Divorce. Mark Twain once said "Familiarity breeds contemt- and children " . Therein lies the problem of finding any solution which has been exacerbated by the acceleration of Settlements in the West Bank with Jews and Arabs living Cheek by Jowl but under a very different set of Laws. Getting Settlers to withdraw from the illegally controlled West Bank never mind to the 1967 Borders will be a monumental task while Zionist have any level of influence in Israel as their aim is to control the whole area, as they pretty much do now. I don't have any issue with a one state solution in principle but there is nothing to convince me that it's more likely than a two state solution. It just sounds like wishful thinking to me - the only solution that appears to have any significant, credible backing on the local and international stage is the two state solution. I'm not favouring it as a matter of principle, I'm just saying it's the one that appears to have some momentum behind it.
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Israel
Oct 10, 2024 14:55:14 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 10, 2024 14:55:14 GMT
Exactly. One democratic state, sure call it Israel if its important. Just take ownership of the people as well as the land. That would be great but who is pushing that as a solution? The UN, the West, all the arab nations willing to recognise Isreal and the Palestinian people themselves are all calling for a two state solution. It all sounds lovely in principle but unless I'm missing something no one appears to be doing anything to bring this about on the ground. Four factors at play, really. 1. US, UK, and The West more broadly see the two state solution as the only viable one. 2. There cannot be a two-state solution whilst Hamas and Hezbollah exist. 3. Israel (or rather Netanyahu - granted, the two aren't the same) wants to wipe Hamas and Hezbollah out of existence (which will diminish the influence of Iran) 4. Iran knows that the regional Arab governments are starting to view Israel as a regional and global economic powerhouse, and the issue of the Palestinians is very much secondary to their own economic ambitions. Given that we know Iran did not want Israel to sign any kind of economic or political accord or agreement with Saudi Arabia it subsequently and so it whipped up Hamas and Hezbollah, then I suppose that one notion would be that if you weaken Iran's influence in the region enough, then everyone else will seemingly converge on an economic and political level. One aspect of international relations theory says that, when states tend to integrate closely in one area they almost always look to cooperate in others. My own view is that it will eventually end up with a scenario ironically not too dissimilar to that which we have in the UK; with Israel acting as England, and Gaza and The West Bank being the respective Wales and Scotland. Many possibilities in terms of potential outcomes, though. The status quo isn't completely out of the question either, of course.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 10, 2024 15:11:37 GMT
That would be great but who is pushing that as a solution? The UN, the West, all the arab nations willing to recognise Isreal and the Palestinian people themselves are all calling for a two state solution. It all sounds lovely in principle but unless I'm missing something no one appears to be doing anything to bring this about on the ground. There are some Palestinian and other voices calling for it, I suspect more in exasperation than in conviction. You and I (not that we are relevant) discussed it, sometimes heartedly, some months back. I see it more as an outcome rather than a solution as de facto soon Israel will have total control of the land mass if it doesn't already. One State is anathema to Zionism so it becomes Apartheid. One State is a Marriage, Two State is an amicable Divorce. Mark Twain once said "Familiarity breeds contemt- and children " . Therein lies the problem of finding any solution which has been exacerbated by the acceleration of Settlements in the West Bank with Jews and Arabs living Cheek by Jowl but under a very different set of Laws. Getting Settlers to withdraw from the illegally controlled West Bank never mind to the 1967 Borders will be a monumental task while Zionist have any level of influence in Israel as their aim is to control the whole area, as they pretty much do now. I believe the thinking is land swaps with some shitty bits from elsewhere. Ie if palestinians cannot be expelled in big enough numbers to annex, and international pressire pushes a solution then force them to accept a few arrid bits of jordan or similar and a state of bantustans in land swaps. And keep the settlements and all the good ground in the WB. Sorry I missed the earlier discussion. Its been a long year and haven't kept up with those thread for stretches.
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Israel
Oct 10, 2024 15:15:59 GMT
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skip likes this
Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 10, 2024 15:15:59 GMT
Just so we are absolutely clear ...
AND
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Israel
Oct 10, 2024 15:48:34 GMT
Post by wannabee on Oct 10, 2024 15:48:34 GMT
Sorry I missed the earlier discussion. Its been a long year and haven't kept up with those thread for stretches. I do that too mate, I find it quite depressing and draining at times and take a break
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Israel
Oct 10, 2024 16:09:08 GMT
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 10, 2024 16:09:08 GMT
That would be great but who is pushing that as a solution? The UN, the West, all the arab nations willing to recognise Isreal and the Palestinian people themselves are all calling for a two state solution. It all sounds lovely in principle but unless I'm missing something no one appears to be doing anything to bring this about on the ground. Four factors at play, really. 1. US, UK, and The West more broadly see the two state solution as the only viable one. 2. There cannot be a two-state solution whilst Hamas and Hezbollah exist. 3. Israel (or rather Netanyahu - granted, the two aren't the same) wants to wipe Hamas and Hezbollah out of existence (which will diminish the influence of Iran) 4. Iran knows that the regional Arab governments are starting to view Israel as a regional and global economic powerhouse, and the issue of the Palestinians is very much secondary to their own economic ambitions. Given that we know Iran did not want Israel to sign any kind of economic or political accord or agreement with Saudi Arabia it subsequently and so it whipped up Hamas and Hezbollah, then I suppose that one notion would be that if you weaken Iran's influence in the region enough, then everyone else will seemingly converge on an economic and political level. One aspect of international relations theory says that, when states tend to integrate closely in one area they almost always look to cooperate in others. My own view is that it will eventually end up with a scenario ironically not too dissimilar to that which we have in the UK; with Israel acting as England, and Gaza and The West Bank being the respective Wales and Scotland. Many possibilities in terms of potential outcomes, though. The status quo isn't completely out of the question either, of course. As it stands Isreal is out to defeat Hamas and Hezbollah and if they succeed then it seems to me the Isreali government will continue to suppress the people of the Gaza strip and support the occupation of the West Bank with no opposition. The idea that the Isreali government would then flip to being benign and implement a UK style solution seems far fetched to me. It seems more likely that the cycle of violence will start again or the West and the arab nations will put pressure on Isreal to accept a two state solution at the behest of the Palestinian people on the basis that the one state solutuon remains oppressive. If Isreal fail to eraducate Hamas and Hezbollah then the situation would remain on a permanent war footing and a benign one state solution simply won't happen. With a standoff the only likely solution brokered by the West and the less anti Isreal arab states would again be a two state solution. The one state solution sounds lovely but I cannot see a scenario that will bring it about.
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Israel
Oct 10, 2024 16:09:35 GMT
Post by wannabee on Oct 10, 2024 16:09:35 GMT
Just so we are absolutely clear ... AND I really think this shortsighted intractable attitude will come back to bite Israel on the ass in the future. In the meantime many live in misery and even for Israel's that become accustomed to living under permanent vigilance is not a great way to live. I understand those that say given an opportunity Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran would reign terror on Israel given half a chance but i wonder if it's a case of which came first the chicken or the egg and if Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran would garner much support if a state of peace existed
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 10, 2024 17:07:34 GMT
Just so we are absolutely clear ... AND I really think this shortsighted intractable attitude will come back to bite Israel on the ass in the future. In the meantime many live in misery and even for Israel's that become accustomed to living under permanent vigilance is not a great way to live. I understand those that say given an opportunity Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran would reign terror on Israel given half a chance but i wonder if it's a case of which came first the chicken or the egg and if Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran would garner much support if a state of peace existed I think it demonstrates perfectly why all this current talk of a two state solution is utterly futile. Israel isn't interested in a two state solution and neither is the US. Until US foreign policy significantly alters, then Israel will continue to believe it can act with impunity, as it has done for decades. How do you solve a turf war, when one side is (metaphorically speaking) carrying a switch blade and the other side has an AK47? For genuine peace negotiations to begin, you have to create a level playing field and that ain't happening anytime soon when the President of America proclaims that he's a proud Zionist, pumps billions of dollars of high tech. weaponry into the region to be used by one side only and vetoes every UN sanction that is placed on Israel. I'm sure you remember that originally Reagan and Thatcher attempted to resist sanctions being placed on South Africa but ultimately they were shamed by the rest of the World into doing so. We are at a very similar juncture right now and I believe it is up to the citizens of countries in the West, to make it clear to their government's that they will not accept the slaughter continuing in their name any longer.
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Post by wannabee on Oct 10, 2024 17:59:21 GMT
I'm sure you member that originally Reagan and Thatcher attempted to resist sanctions being placed on South Africa but ultimately they were shamed by the rest of the World into doing so. We are at a very similar juncture right now and I believe it is up to the citizens of countries in the West, to make it clear to their government's that they will not accept the slaughter in their name any longer. You make a great point that it was largely people power who were sickened by what was being supported in their name that turned the tide of Public Opinion that made it untenable It also needed Statesmen on both sides.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 10, 2024 19:17:51 GMT
I'm sure you member that originally Reagan and Thatcher attempted to resist sanctions being placed on South Africa but ultimately they were shamed by the rest of the World into doing so. We are at a very similar juncture right now and I believe it is up to the citizens of countries in the West, to make it clear to their government's that they will not accept the slaughter in their name any longer. You make a great point that it was largely people power who were sickened by what was being supported in their name that turned the tide of Public Opinion that made it untenable It also needed Statesmen on both sides. And you make a great point that it needed Statesmen on both sides. Currently (sadly) we don't have one on either.
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Israel
Oct 11, 2024 7:57:08 GMT
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 11, 2024 7:57:08 GMT
I really think this shortsighted intractable attitude will come back to bite Israel on the ass in the future. In the meantime many live in misery and even for Israel's that become accustomed to living under permanent vigilance is not a great way to live. I understand those that say given an opportunity Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran would reign terror on Israel given half a chance but i wonder if it's a case of which came first the chicken or the egg and if Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran would garner much support if a state of peace existed I think it demonstrates perfectly why all this current talk of a two state solution is utterly futile. Israel isn't interested in a two state solution and neither is the US. Until US foreign policy significantly alters, then Israel will continue to believe it can act with impunity, as it has done for decades. How do you solve a turf war, when one side is (metaphorically speaking) carrying a switch blade and the other side has an AK47? For genuine peace negotiations to begin, you have to create a level playing field and that ain't happening anytime soon when the President of America proclaims that he's a proud Zionist, pumps billions of dollars of high tech. weaponry into the region to be used by one side only and vetoes every UN sanction that is placed on Israel. I'm sure you remember that originally Reagan and Thatcher attempted to resist sanctions being placed on South Africa but ultimately they were shamed by the rest of the World into doing so. We are at a very similar juncture right now and I believe it is up to the citizens of countries in the West, to make it clear to their government's that they will not accept the slaughter continuing in their name any longer. You've raised this option of "levelling the playing field" before and it's an incredibly nieve and dangerous idea. If the West ceases to support Isreal there will be all out war in the region, mass slaughter on both sides and it will lead to the genocide of the Jews in Isreal. The idea that the likes of the Iranian regime, Hezbollah and Hamas will at some point hold out an olive branch and cooperate in establishing a one party state with Palestinians and Isreali Jews living side by side in peace and harmony is utter bollocks. They will slaughter and displace the Jews from Isreal - it will be a genocide. I've absolutely no doubt that there are butchers in the Isreali government who would happily slaughter all the Muslims in Isreal and grab more land for themselves. However what you seem to be denying is that there are complete bastards in the Iranian regime, Hezbollah and Hamas who would happily do the same to the Jews in Isreal. The support of the West is there to stop that happening. It isn't there to support the excesses of some on the Isreali government who have goals beyond self preservation.
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Israel
Oct 11, 2024 9:46:02 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 11, 2024 9:46:02 GMT
I think it demonstrates perfectly why all this current talk of a two state solution is utterly futile. Israel isn't interested in a two state solution and neither is the US. Until US foreign policy significantly alters, then Israel will continue to believe it can act with impunity, as it has done for decades. How do you solve a turf war, when one side is (metaphorically speaking) carrying a switch blade and the other side has an AK47? For genuine peace negotiations to begin, you have to create a level playing field and that ain't happening anytime soon when the President of America proclaims that he's a proud Zionist, pumps billions of dollars of high tech. weaponry into the region to be used by one side only and vetoes every UN sanction that is placed on Israel. I'm sure you remember that originally Reagan and Thatcher attempted to resist sanctions being placed on South Africa but ultimately they were shamed by the rest of the World into doing so. We are at a very similar juncture right now and I believe it is up to the citizens of countries in the West, to make it clear to their government's that they will not accept the slaughter continuing in their name any longer. You've raised this option of "levelling the playing field" before and it's an incredibly nieve and dangerous idea. If the West ceases to support Isreal there will be all out war in the region, mass slaughter on both sides and it will lead to the genocide of the Jews in Isreal. The idea that the likes of the Iranian regime, Hezbollah and Hamas will at some point hold out an olive branch and cooperate in establishing a one party state with Palestinians and Isreali Jews living side by side in peace and harmony is utter bollocks. They will slaughter and displace the Jews from Isreal - it will be a genocide. I've absolutely no doubt that there are butchers in the Isreali government who would happily slaughter all the Muslims in Isreal and grab more land for themselves. However what you seem to be denying is that there are complete bastards in the Iranian regime, Hezbollah and Hamas who would happily do the same to the Jews in Isreal. The support of the West is there to stop that happening. It isn't there to support the excesses of some on the Isreali government who have goals beyond self preservation. And I've explained to you before that that is NOT what I'm suggesting, it's just a pure straw man load of nonsense that you introduce into the conversation - God knows why. NOTHING can change until the US alters it's foreign policy, peace can only begin to take place once this occurs, until this point is arrived at, absolutely ANY other discussions are futile. That doesn't then mean (as you are trying to suggest) that the West will walk away from Israel completely and no longer defend it if it is attacked, nobody has suggested that but YOU. However that doesn't preclude the US from upholding UN sanctions, doesnt mean they have to continue pouring billions of high tech. military into the region, or swear their allegiance to the Zionist cause. Creating a level playing field, is a metaphorical term, in terms of fostering an environment where genuine peace talks can begin, which isn't going to happen when one side is being supported in it's aim of completely obliterating the other. You say that there will be a genocide of the Jews, whilst ignoring that this is exactly what is happening to the Palestinians RIGHT NOW. You can't have serious peace negotiations, when genocide is taking place on EITHER side, that's what I mean be creating a level playing field but you know that already, I've already explained it to you before. We can't be in a position where UN resolutions against Israel and backed by the ENTIRE world, are repeatedly vetoed by a single country. We can't be in a position where the Jewish lobby exerts great financial influence over the American government (and others to be fair) and think that somehow there is going to be equal representation for both parties at the negotiating table. It is you my friend, who is the nieve one, if you believe that these completely unlevel playing conditions are somehow going to forge a road to peace. This clip is only 90 seconds long but every single word of what Safadi says is extremely important, as he appeals to the international community to grow a spine. THESE are the people we need to be getting round the table with but it simply isn't going to happen, if we continue down the path we are currently on and ultimately, it is us who will be proven to have been on the wrong side of history.
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Post by dutchstokie on Oct 11, 2024 10:15:57 GMT
The conclusion I had from watching it is if there's a nuclear war and I survive I'll be jumping off the nearest bridge...... Yeah i think if shit gets nuclear you just have to hope you're killed in the immediate blast. Would a lovely thought. Fuck war. It will NEVER go nuclear...the human race has too much to lose. Common sense and a peace accord will thankfully prevail much sooner rather than later...and it cant come soon enough. The loss of innocent lives has gone on far too long on both sides. Utter madness
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